So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

To Nomura and Nojima, Cloud starting a family with Tifa is romantic and like a husband/wife. Him visiting the church is guilt

To a Clerith, Cloud starting a family with Tifa is friendship/platonic like friends/siblings. Cloud visiting the church is love.

Fixed

No really they say that Cloud was visiting the church and closing himself off because of his guilt:

Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off.

However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him

So that's it, guilt. NO WHERE does it state ANYWHERE that Cloud is visiting the church out of love for Aerith.

As for the family being romantic:

Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs)

Again he doesn't just randomly bring up family or marriage for no reason. He sees them as a family, like a married couple. If the creator sees it, it boggles my mind that others can't.

So there you have it. The creators themselves say this stuff flat out, and as far as I'm concerned that's all there is to it. It does not get more clear than that. If the creators saying they're a couple isn't proof that they're a couple, I don't know what is... but it is NOT spirit sex I'll tell you that much

 

[KissTheRain]

Cloud being a copycat of Zack IS his character, or at least part of it, in the beginning. The whole 'lying to himself, created my own illusory world' bit? Yeah. It's a deliberate parallel.

I know that it is an initial part of his character in the beginning of the story and I don't really mind that I'm not so biased to the level that Cloud acted nothing like Zack, but my dislike is more referred to fans who didn't like Aerith/Cloud's meeting or thought Cloud's Meteor Shots as crap, but when Zack did it, it was cool and Cloud ripped it off from Zack of course this was before fans knew that those were going to repeats when they first replayed the game aka I suppose rabids. /sorry, just a rant. U_U

The entire GAME was less than two months. Disc 1 was about two weeks.

Your correct i'm sorry, I needed to check the timeline again. U_U But it may have been more like 3 (not that it really matters) or 4 just saying.
Well this is someones's view of it in a more math oriented way rather than an estimate: The game takes place over about 7 weeks, correct? There's 144 scenes in the game, so there's about 20.5 scenes per week. Aerith's death takes place at Scene 90, so Cloud knew her for about 4.5 weeks, which is over a month.

Yeah, but once again a few weeks difference isn't too much of a difference, and I don't exactly remember why we're bringing it up, so bah.

In general, a man starting a family with a woman is romantic and like a husband and wife. A man visiting a church and wanting forgiveness is guilt.

The way you put it yes, but pinning on a dead women who was in love with you and you might have been (do we have anything official on the "beloved" line in CoLW?) can be romantic seeing like we know SE likes to use parallels in FFVII it could be similar to Vincent's love for Lucrecia. Yes he has guilt for her death, but he is also in love with her. Not saying Cloud was in love with Aerith, but if so it's easy to see how that is romantic.

Buh? Explain.

For the first part i'd check out clerith.com and the second part see above.

 

[Dashell]

I hate it when I make a good post and the people I was directing it to ignore it

 

[Makoeyes987]

I see Sephiroth killing Aerith as romantic and a sign of true love between the two. It's my interpretation and my eyes see it that way, and cant' really help it. You can see Aerith's death as tragic and romantic, since Sephiroth is doing it for Cloud and was gonna make him do it. I personally think its a sign of love between the two. It makes the scene much more poignant and enjoyable. My interpretation is as valid and equal as the one the creators say.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

The way you put it yes, but pinning on a dead women who was in love with you and you might have been (do we have anything official on the "beloved" line in CoLW?) can be romantic seeing like we know SE likes to use parallels in FFVII it could be similar to Vincent's love for Lucrecia. Yes he has guilt for her death, but he is also in love with her. Not saying Cloud was in love with Aerith, but if so it's easy to see how that is romantic.

If SE was trying to draw a parallel between Vincent/Lucrecia and Cloud/Aerith, I think they would have made it more apparent. I mean, they already drew a parallel between Vincent and Cloud. Both carry a great burden of guilt, and lament their sins a lot, and that scene in AC/C where Cloud and Vincent talk about whether these sins are forgiven, with Cloud getting the idea to try and stuff... yeah.

There's no other parallel.

 

[KissTheRain]

@Mako Eyes- I understand the compilation isn't a choose your own adventure book and there has to some basis to your thinking rather than your opinion, but because of Cloud's missing Aerith and optional date and other points you can take to play with someone who has all their Clerith quotes ready is why they think that. I mean i'm not sure on the exact reasoning behind it that makes Clerith and Cloti compare different between than Rosa/Cecil and Rosa/Kain or Tuna and Tikku it just does obviously.

@Legretta-And the reason for Vincent's guilt is failing to protect the women he loves, which could be a plausable reason for Cloud too. The difference is Cloud forgives himself or is forgiven and Vincent isn't till DOC DX

 

[Winter]

I see Sephiroth killing Aerith as romantic and a sign of true love between the two. It's my interpretation and my eyes see it that way, and cant' really help it. You can see Aerith's death as tragic and romantic, since Sephiroth is doing it for Cloud and was gonna make him do it. I personally think its a sign of love between the two. It makes the scene much more poignant and enjoyable. My interpretation is as valid and equal as the one the creators say.

Ahaha if only you knew the people I've met in this fandom.


And the idea of someone living in someone else's soul (in a figurative sense) is in my opinion far more appealing than spirit!sex.

Also, I get why first love is important , but I still don't see why that makes her IN LOVE WITH HIM FOREVER. It was just a simplistic teenage love, not a sweeping romance.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I know that it is an initial part of his character in the beginning of the story and I don't really mind that I'm not so biased to the level that Cloud acted nothing like Zack, but my dislike is more referred to fans who didn't like Aerith/Cloud's meeting or thought Cloud's Meteor Shots as crap, but when Zack did it, it was cool and Cloud ripped it off from Zack of course this was before fans knew that those were going to repeats when they first replayed the game aka I suppose rabids. /sorry, just a rant. U_U

So you're raging against double standards.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

Your correct i'm sorry, I needed to check the timeline again. U_U But it may have been more like 3 (not that it really matters) or 4 just saying.
Well this is someones's view of it in a more math oriented way rather than an estimate: The game takes place over about 7 weeks, correct? There's 144 scenes in the game, so there's about 20.5 scenes per week. Aerith's death takes place at Scene 90, so Cloud knew her for about 4.5 weeks, which is over a month.

Yeah, but once again a few weeks difference isn't too much of a difference, and I don't exactly remember why we're bringing it up, so bah.

This assumes an even spread of time throughout, which is patently wrong. Discs 2 and 3 contain a good 3rd of a month we never even see.
Further, to emphasize this, consider how many 'scenes' occur while you are still in Midgar. Realize these occur over the course of only about three days. Keryeah.

Who brought up this even distribution of time idea, BTW?

The way you put it yes, but pinning on a dead women who was in love with you and you might have been (do we have anything official on the "beloved" line in CoLW?) can be romantic seeing like we know SE likes to use parallels in FFVII it could be similar to Vincent's love for Lucrecia.

Who isn't dead. And wait 'we know SE likes to use parallels' flows both ways. I can draw more parallels between CECIL and Cloud than there are between Vin and Cloud.
There's also a major distinction between Vin/Luc and C/A in that Vinny and Luccy were both themselves and knew each other for a lengthy period of time before shit went down.

Yes he has guilt for her death, but he is also in love with her. Not saying Cloud was in love with Aerith, but if so it's easy to see how that is romantic.

Yes, IF YOU ASSUME ROMANCE. That's the whole problem. You can't just assume the romance. You must demonstrate the basics first.

For the first part i'd check out clerith.com and the second part see above.

'druther not. Elaborate in your own words, please.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

@KissTheRain
Yes, it could be plausible. But is it? Point out what lends it plausibility, because if it doesn't have those things, then it's meaningless.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ahaha if only you knew the people I've met in this fandom.


And the idea of someone living in someone else's soul (in a figurative sense) is in my opinion far more appealing than spirit!sex.

...In a figurative sense? As in 'remembering them fondly?' As in the way that real people use the phrase and not the ethereal parasite way?

Also, I get why first love is important , but I still don't see why that makes her IN LOVE WITH HIM FOREVER. It was just a simplistic teenage love, not a sweeping romance.

That's not what her actions, letters, creator commentary, her mom, etc. etc. etc. say.

Not that C/A was 'A sweeping romance' if it was one at all. It was even more simplistic, really.

@Mako Eyes- I understand the compilation isn't a choose your own adventure book and there has to some basis to your thinking rather than your opinion, but because of Cloud's missing Aerith and optional date and other points you can take to play with someone who has all their Clerith quotes ready is why they think that. I mean i'm not sure on the exact reasoning behind it that makes Clerith and Cloti compare different between than Rosa/Cecil and Rosa/Kain or Tuna and Tikku it just does obviously.

@Legretta-And the reason for Vincent's guilt is failing to protect the women he loves, which could be a plausable reason for Cloud too. The difference is Cloud forgives himself or is forgiven and Vincent isn't till DOC DX

@KissTheRain
Yes, it could be plausible. But is it? Point out what lends it plausibility, because if it doesn't have those things, then it's meaningless.

POSSIBLE. It could be POSSIBLE. Plausibility is not automatic. Possibility != plausibility.

 

[Dashell]

...In a figurative sense? As in 'remembering them fondly?' As in the way that real people use the phrase and not the ethereal parasite way?

As in, people don't truly die until they're forgotten? And they'll always be with you and all that jazz?... this I approve of

That's the whole problem. You can't just assume the romance. You must demonstrate the basics first.

I'm gonna post this again:
they say that Cloud was visiting the church and closing himself off because of his guilt:

Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off.

However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him

So that's it, guilt. NO WHERE does it state ANYWHERE that Cloud is visiting the church out of love or romance for Aerith.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

I think that two dead people carrying on a relationship is the dumbest thing in the history of existence. Your rebuttal or approval, please.

Zack and Aerith don't really exist, and we're not arguing about real dead people. Ignoring religion, as far as we know, dead people are dead, and that's it - so they can't carry on a relationship.

However, Final Fantasy VII has shown us that some dead people have "another life" of sorts - in the Lifestream.

At any rate, at least two dead Final Fantasy VII characters are in the same "medium"... As opposed to one dead character and another living character carrying on across mediums/worlds.

I'm glad we can all agree that Aerith was special to Cloud in some way, shape, or form. Platonic or romantic, or w/e.

I don't think anyone who has played the game or watched AC(C) would deny that Aerith is special to Cloud. I don't mean you, but I really wish people wouldn't assume anyone who thinks Cloud loves Tifa also believes that Aerith amounted to no more than a dish rag to him.

Your correct i'm sorry, I needed to check the timeline again. U_U But it may have been more like 3 (not that it really matters) or 4 just saying.
Well this is someones's view of it in a more math oriented way rather than an estimate: The game takes place over about 7 weeks, correct? There's 144 scenes in the game, so there's about 20.5 scenes per week. Aerith's death takes place at Scene 90, so Cloud knew her for about 4.5 weeks, which is over a month.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while... Seriously. I left little bits of my brain on my keyboard after I headdesked.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Not that C/A was 'A sweeping romance' if it was one at all. It was even more simplistic, really.

THIS.

It always makes me 'wtf?' when people say that Zack and Aerith are first love not tru luv, and that they were somehow less seriously involved than Cloud and Aerith, even though NOTHING HAPPENED between Cloud and Aerith.

What's the most romantic thing that happened between Cloud and Aerith? Was it the time she used Zack's pick-up line on Cloud? The time she had Cait Sith tell them their compatibility? Or their date at the GS where Aerith admits that she was chasing Zack's phantom and asks to actually get to know Cloud?

Where is Cloud and Aerith's sweeping romance?

@Ryu
Did I mess up my wording a bit? I meant that if it had supporting facts to, well, support it, that a similarity like that could be made plausible. But yeah, possible probably works better.

 

[KissTheRain]

So you're raging against double standards.
WELCOME TO MY WORLD.

So is Cloud 5'7 or 5'8 yet, what has SE decided?

Yes, IF YOU ASSUME ROMANCE. That's the whole problem. You can't just assume the romance. You must demonstrate the basics first.

POSSIBLE. It could be POSSIBLE. Plausibility is not automatic. Possibility != plausibility.

Yes, it could be plausible. But is it? Point out what lends it plausibility, because if it doesn't have those things, then it's meaningless.

Oh i'm simply saying how it could be, not how it is. I personally cannot think of any good points/quotes atm because i'm not a devoted Clerith LTD fighter. Wait till the real devoted Cleriths come back not the so called neutral that doesn't know what her view on religion or the LT is yet. U_U

This assumes an even spread of time throughout, which is patently wrong. Discs 2 and 3 contain a good 3rd of a month we never even see.
Further, to emphasize this, consider how many 'scenes' occur while you are still in Midgar. Realize these occur over the course of only about three days. Keryeah.

Okay i'm on your side on this. (: And who cares really if it was 2 or 4 weeks, really?

And not to ditch you guys, but i need more than 3 hours of sleep for my mega exciting first day of school tommorow. /attentionwhore moment over

 

[Madame Mayor]

Sorry my view varies from yours. But since you asked, I'll just give you some brief points, personal mind you. Just please don't hit me with a baseball bat.

Nothing I stated is 'my views'. It's what the creators have said themselves. Most of us are just curious as to why people believe Cloud was or is still in love with Aerith when there's nothing to really indicate it in the original game or in AC and the creators statements contradict the idea.

Thanks for posting it though, I see now what you mean. It's the same for me with Tserith stuff, I see more of it in the compilation than one is suppose to get from it, but it's just so awesome. <33

Which is why I can see why people say Zack and Aerith are inseparable

Actually, when she says they are inseparable, she's quoting creators statements again.

Yes, yes I know there are many, many differences but like Z/A's and C/A's meeting didn't have to be repeated

You are right, it didn't HAVE TO be repeated, which makes it all that more important. It's trying to hit home that Aerith's feelings for Cloud are because of her feelings for Zack. They were trying to make it very obvious for people who may have missed that from the original game itself. Plus, that is another thing that was stated very clearly.

The way Aerith acts around Cloud is because of her feelings for Zack.

It's as simple as that Mako, you can see/interpret what your eye sees and can't really help it. I personally think both can be seen as romantic, but don't need to be just in either situation if it is romantic it makes the scene much more poignant and enjoyable.

Which is fine and wonderful and I LOVE a good discussion on personal feelings and interpretations of works of fiction like FFVII. HOWEVER, this is a CANON debate. There is an established canon, that Cloud loves Tifa, and that Aerith loves Zack. If you hate these couples and want to see things differently, that's fine, but when you go around the internet trying to prove your interpretation means anything when compared to the established canon, that's the problem.

You should be able to say, "I understand the canon is this [insert canon]. However, I prefer to view the story like this [insert personal opinions]." Make sense?

Here, I'll go first:

I understand the canon is this: that the only man Aerith has every been in love with is Zack. However, I prefer to view the story like this: that Aerith felt something very deep and emotional with Tseng, an unspoken romance between the two. They both had feelings that were developing, but because of his duties, and Zack coming into the picture, it never became more. I also like to think that Tseng had died in FFVII, and that there was something morbidly romantic about the two of them being stabbed and murdered by the same man and the same sword.

See, it's not so bad.

Also, I get why first love is important , but I still don't see why that makes her IN LOVE WITH HIM FOREVER. It was just a simplistic teenage love, not a sweeping romance.

No one is saying that because she loved him first as a teenager that it automatically makes it true love. The creators saying that they are in love, that she's still in love with him years after his death waiting for him, that everything she does with Cloud is because of her feelings for him, leaving with him at the end of AC and much much more is what makes the canon that Aerith and Zack are true love.

No, no one that I know thinks they are sexing in the lifestream, but they obviously can talk, perhaps share moments together that is hard to describe or understand, before they both finally dissolve into the lifestream forever. It's going to happen to both Aerith and Zack eventually.

All that really matters is that they've been reunited in some way, probably spoke about what happened and how they feel, but I really doubt Zack's asking Aerith out on dates anymore. XP

 

[Vendel]

@Mako Eyes- I understand the compilation isn't a choose your own adventure book

Aw shit....

You did not just use one of my trademarked sayings. Someone tell me I did not see that.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Holy talk in circles, Batman...

Interpretation is individual, yes, and most material (books, series, movies, art) can be open to interpretation; however, that option ends when the artist/creator tells you specifically THEIR intent behind a scene/novel/painting (whatever) then the interpretation is no longer open. So, all of this: "Well, I see the scene THIS way" shit is ridiculous.

I can interpret The Scarlet Letter as being a novel about the intricacies and benefits of embroidery, but that doesn't make it right. Especially if Hawthorne were to state specifically his intent behind his characters motivations and scenes.

Nomura is the director and his words hold significant weight, and Nojima is the scenario writer (it's his story) and his words hold even more weight and BOTH have stated specifically that Cloud and Tifa are together.

Many people believe they are being coy about the LTD when they have, in fact, been very open about it. It would be bad form on their part to state: "Look, you fucking idiots, it's laid out for you in its entirety! There's no mystery, learn some damn comprehension!" That would just be insulting to the fans that somehow missed the compilation boat and still consider Clerith as any form of canon.

 

[Vendel]

Many people believe they are being coy about the LTD when they have, in fact, been very open about it. It would be bad form on their part to state: "Look, you fucking idiots, it's laid out for you in its entirety! There's no mystery, learn some damn comprehension!" That would just be insulting to the fans that somehow missed the compilation boat and still consider Clerith as any form of canon.

Bad form? Maybe. Hilarious? Definitely.

 

[paoo]

I think that two dead people carrying on a relationship is the dumbest thing in the history of existence. Your rebuttal or approval, please.

I think having sex with a dead girl, while you're alive is the dumbest thing in the history of existence.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Again with the interpretation speak. Please, we're here to deal with CANON FACTS THE CREATORS THEMSELVES HAVE MADE CLEAR TIME AND TIME AGAIN and NOT THE FACTS YOU'VE ESTABLISHED BY YOUR AWESOME CREATIVE MIND.

Is it so much to ask for everyone to just debate with the proper sources (preferably what they say in the Ultimania or phone calls with Nomura and Nojima) and not bring up interpretations every time? It's great that you have interpretation powers and all, but there's not much interpretation to debate of if the canon source already made it clear where everything else is pointing to.

For example, we don't misinterpret Cloud as a woman. Why is that? Because it's OBVIOUS.

We don't misinterpret that Tifa is a man. Why? Because it's OBVIOUS. Have you seen those jugs?

And these things aren't even stated in any canon source yet. It's just OBVIOUS.

We don't misinterpret that the family in AC/C isn't Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel. Why? Because it's OBVIOUS. No one can possibly misinterpret Cloud and Marlene as the mother and father of this family unit because 1) it's not LOGICAL, 2) it wasn't stated by the CREATORS anywhere, 3) let's not be ridiculous, 4) HELLO?!

We don't misinterpret the canon pairing of FFVII. Why? Because it's OBVIOUS.

Note how many times I used the word 'interpret'.

The inability of some to realize that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship while at the same time claiming that Cloud and Aerith are and forever will be in one baffles my young, developing brain. I know the Cloud/Aerith romance is good and awesome, and the tragedy is boo-hoo tearjerky and totally snotworthy but SHE'S DEAD and TIFA'S ALIVE and EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET OVER IT.


Read: Cloud and Aerith never had a proper relationship.

Before we can claim that they ever had a relationship, let's examine when and where this so-called relationship could have started. If you're going to say behind-the-game-camera-where-it-could-have-possibly-happened-but-just-wasn't-shown-for-screwy-reasons then first ask yourself how relevant your pairing could really be if they didn't even emphasize such a vital plot point. As for me, I'll go with the Gold Saucer date. Let's assume the Aerith date scenario, which is hinted to be the canon one, if I'm not mistaken.

Here, Aerith confessed her feelings--about Zack, and Cloud's creepy semblance to him. She asked if she could meet Cloud, which did NOT mean she wanted to get in his pants, but rather get to know the Cloud beneath the shadow of her first love. This, people, is where a romantic relationship between Cloud and Aerith could have started. Aerith finally decided to let go of her image of the black-haired hottie, and go for the blond-haired blondie. We can also assume at this point in time that Cloud finally got it and understood that Aerith didn't only want him to be her bodyguard, she also wanted to be a guard for his body, if you get what I mean. Yes, folks. CloudxAerith is finally being set in motion, PRESUMABLY. Whoop-dee-doo.

But alas! Remember that scene where some dude with gay silver hair came down on Aerith and pierced her with his heavily sexual, overcompensating sword? Yeah, that one. She DIED there. Hmm, kind of a disadvantageous position there, being dead and all. While Cloud is sick in the head, he's not sick enough to want to continue a presumably budding romantic relationship with a dead woman he buried in a lake. Besides, he had other things to take care of, like Sephiroth and his flunkies, and getting his screwed-up head fixed. Tifa, who is alive and steaming hot, was the one who fixed his head right up, in case some people missed that. Oh yeah, it was also revealed that Cloud totally wanted to do her since they were kids and that he joined SOLDIER to be noticed by her, who is not Aerith, but TIFA. Might I mention that they exchanged mutual feelings and did some touching under the stars? If that's not romantic, I don't know what is.

This means that while Cloud and Aerith weren't able to start a relationship, Cloud and Tifa were able to and continued to have it until DoC and presumably beyond.

I'm just gonna ask. Did all these sound like an interpretation of FFVII events, or a cracked-up (yet quite accurate) summary of actual events that happened within the Compilation?

Sorry, YTards are annoying me.

This thread has become pretty repetitive, with the same things being argued all the time. There's really nothing new now. It's kind of sad.

Either way, I find this topic to be my favorite in TLS, because intelligence and nerdiness blatantly manifest itself in almost every post.

PS: Long, aggravated post is long and aggravated.

 

[paoo]

This thread has become pretty repetitive, with the same things being argued all the time. There's really nothing new now. It's kind of sad.

But what's left to discuss? What are things we haven't talked about yet? It feels like nothing is left to debate, because...

Spoiler

OBVIOUS CANON CLOTI IS OBVIOUS.

 

[Madame Mayor]

What's left to discuss is the next crazy theory the Clerii will come up with to try and prove their ship.

 

[I Am Not Me]

But what's left to discuss? What are things we haven't talked about yet? It feels like nothing is left to debate, because...

Spoiler

OBVIOUS CANON CLOTI IS OBVIOUS.

INORITE Let's just go ahead and spam the thread with CANON porn!

Oh yeah, baby... look at those HUGE wheels! Ooh yeah, that's good canon porn...

What's left to discuss is the next crazy theory the Clerii will come up with to try and prove their ship.

Did you not read my post? Clerith is totally canon!

 

[paoo]

INORITE Let's just go ahead and spam the thread with CANON porn!

Oh yeah, baby... look at those HUGE wheels! Ooh yeah, that's good canon porn...

Oh... my.... god. HAWT!!!!!!!!!!!!11123

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Question: Is there a single pro-Clerith point you've seen that you've not been able to reconcile with the other pro-Cloti evidence?