So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Makoeyes987]

Her not being human is the base argument or interpretation for her being the light.

For example. if you look at it like "if Sephiroth is darkness to Cloud, then the light is Tifa," people might take it as Tifa being something not like a regular human being. Then maybe the reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone besides Sora, Donald and Goofy is because she doesn't exist as a human being. Of course, it's made so you could also look at it like she's an inhabitant of Hollow Bastion like Cid, Aerith, and the others. I hope people will think about it freely.


Wow, might, maybe, think about it freely! Gee, that's so solid, I'm sold.

Again, you're throwing the baby out with the bathtub. The fact Tifa is Cloud's light is not up for interpretation. That's not what's being discussed. Tifa's existence and interaction with outside people is what they made up to interpretation. You're attributing a statement about her existence to the plot position she holds, namely...as Cloud's light. They never said her being Light was something to "think about freely."

Q: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
A: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

So no, thinking Cloud was searching for Aeris as well as Sephiroth is not baseless. :3

Wrong again. The KH Ultimania was done before KH: Final Mix was created which refutes that claim as Nomura clearly asserts Cloud was looking for Sephiroth. So attributing that quote which is soundly contradicted by the re-release of the game done by Nomura as director is erroneous. He removed any hint of leaving it up to interpretation when he had Aerith say out of her mouth that Cloud was looking for Sephiroth, and not her.

 

[Zee]

Do you not read comprehend the quotes you post?

 

[Kikyou]

WHILE WE ARE ON THE SUBJECT OF LIGHT, HOW MANY CLOUDS DOES IT TAKE TO UNSCREW A LIGHTBULB?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd ask the same, since you're attributing the fact they specifically talked about Tifa being a real person as subject to interpretation, not the fact that she's his light since Sephiroth is his darkness. If you're gonna selectively pick and choose what one person says about another fictional character, you're gonna have a hard time actually debating the facts.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Apparently, Zee, you don't comprehend the quotes you read. Nice Ad Hom, BTW. The base premise is "If Sephiroth is Darkness, then Tifa is the light" with that in mind, you may take it that Tifa isn't human.
Tifa being the light isn't the dependant variable here. It's the independant variable on which the unanswered and dependant variable 'is she human' rests.

And yes, figurative, as in 'their own little world,' not necessarily a literally different one across the void between worlds.

Further, let's break this down.

"Speaking of Tifa, there's an event where she talked to Cloud after beating Sephiroth.
In Nojima-san's scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa's connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light";"

This is the basic premise. If Seph is Dark, Tifa is light. From this we follow with

"in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human. The reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn't exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can feely think for yourself about her."

As the light, she might not be human, hence which she only talks to the main characters. Of course, there is enough wiggle room that she might be human. Figure it out for yourself.
Remember, being the light does not automatically make one not human.
Else the princesses from the first game don't exist.

 

[Zee]

Look, I'm gonna help you out here. Don't worry.

For example. If you look at it like "if Sephiroth is darkness to Cloud, then the light is Tifa," people might take it as Tifa being something not like a regular human being. Then maybe the reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone besides Sora, Donald and Goofy is because she doesn't exist as a human being.
Nomura is talking about her being the light to Cloud as being the reason why she might not be human. So when he's talking about the theory of her being the light, it's related to the discussion of her existence. The two are related.

However, this doesn't change the fact that regardless of which quotes came first, every comment he's made on the matter consists of if, ands, or buts and therefore does jack shit for your Word of God argument. He doesn't make statements, he just proposes theories to squabble over.

lol beat to the punch, but whatevs i keep it rockin' like a g

This is the basic premise. If Seph is Dark, Tifa is light.

That is still an "if" statement, though.

"If you look at it like..."

So.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Because there are people out there who will only accept what they want to hear. The same type of people who think Ulquiorra/Orihime, Shikamaru/Temari, Kagome/Koga, and Vincent/Yuffie are canon. Why?

Because they want it to be.

In Shikamaru/Temari's case, it's not really baseless. It's not canon, but Kishimoto has actually put a few hints what with them having parallel scenes to Asuma/Kurenai, and stuff.

*is Shika/Temari fan, but not rabid one*

/off-topic

 

[Makoeyes987]

Look, I'm gonna help you out here. Don't worry.

For example. If you look at it like "if Sephiroth is darkness to Cloud, then the light is Tifa," people might take it as Tifa being something not like a regular human being. Then maybe the reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone besides Sora, Donald and Goofy is because she doesn't exist as a human being.
Nomura is talking about her being the light to Cloud as being the reason why she might not be human. So when he's talking about the theory of her being the light, it's related to the discussion of her existence. The two are related.

Yeah...your help is not only not necessary, but also unwanted.

The entire subject of the first sentence is Tifa's status as a regular human being. Nomura sets up the subject stating the basic premise of understanding and relevance of Tifa's character in KH2 by stating what she is. If you look at it like it is presented in the game, in regards to her existence, she's not quite a regular human being. Period. It's not a statement of ambiguity, it's a statement setting up the premise of how her status as a human being is to be interpreted.

However, this doesn't change the fact that regardless of which quotes came first, every comment he's made on the matter consists of if, ands, or buts and therefore does jack shit for your Word of God argument. He doesn't make statements, he just proposes theories to squabble over.

Riiiiight, because Nomura makes no sense at all, despite the fact he does and he's writing it. It's funny how people claim he doesn't know jack shit, whenever he says something they disagree with or doesn't like. Pretty hilarious actually. The fact he made Cloud's pursuit target clear and no longer "up for interpretation" doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. It means he offered HIS interpretation and made it fact within the narrative. Riding on his previous comments on the previous incarnation of the game which was modified in the re-release/director's cut makes no sense. Aerith isn't who he was looking for. Let it go.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Look, I'm gonna help you out here. Don't worry.

For example. If you look at it like "if Sephiroth is darkness to Cloud, then the light is Tifa," people might take it as Tifa being something not like a regular human being. Then maybe the reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone besides Sora, Donald and Goofy is because she doesn't exist as a human being.
Nomura is talking about her being the light to Cloud as being the reason why she might not be human. So when he's talking about the theory of her being the light, it's related to the discussion of her existence. The two are related.

No, he's using her being the light as the basis of her possibly not being human. His premise for this rests in the form of a hypothetical 'If Sephiroth is the darkness, then Tifa is the light.' Sephiroth is the darkness. Ergo, Tifa is the light. That said, as she is the light, you may take it as she's not human.
Altering a quote to make you point doesn't actually make it, BTW.

Not that it really fucking needs to be WOG'd that she's the light given that SHE GIVES CLOUD THE LIGHT IN HIS FUCKING FINAL CONFRONTATION.

However, this doesn't change the fact that regardless of which quotes came first, every comment he's made on the matter consists of if, ands, or buts and therefore does jack shit for your Word of God argument. He doesn't make statements, he just proposes theories to squabble over.

Yes, and? He's still done that, but not with what you think he has.

lol beat to the punch, but whatevs i keep it rockin' like a g

That is still an "if" statement, though.

"If you look at it like..."

So.

But it's NOT an 'if you look at it like' statement. It's a simple if, then. If Sephy, then Tifa. Sephy is this, Thus Tifa is that.

 

[Zee]

Riiiiight, because Nomura makes no sense at all, despite the fact he does and he's writing it. It's funny how people claim he doesn't know jack shit, whenever he says something they disagree with or doesn't like. Pretty hilarious actually. The fact he made Cloud's pursuit target clear and no longer "up for interpretation" doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. It means he offered HIS interpretation and made it fact within the narrative. Riding on his previous comments on the previous incarnation of the game which was modified in the re-release/director's cut makes no sense. Aerith isn't who he was looking for.

Nomura's not a loon, but he does leave a lot of his quotes ambiguous hence why I said using them to solidify your interpretation is pointless. It has nothing to do with not liking or disagreeing, I have no problem with the interpretation Tifa is Cloud's light, I even go by that theory. No biggy. My only problem is acting like that's the end all be all of it, when again, any "statement" made about it are all, "hmm, maybe, well, I don't know, figure it out for yourself".

When the fuck did this go back to Aeris? I swear you people are more obsessed with her than I am. I only said in the first game Cloud would have wanted to find his way back home, where she happens to be. And if you think Cloud wouldn't have wanted to have gone home with his friends, well, you really know shit about his character and I can't help you there.

Let it go.

Eat a dick.

 

[Ryushikaze]

When the fuck did this go back to Aeris? I swear you people are more obsessed with her than I am. I only said in the first game Cloud would have wanted to find his way back home, where she happens to be. And if you think Cloud wouldn't have wanted to have gone home with his friends, well, you really know shit about his character and I can't help you there.

Just pointing out here that the convo with Mako only left Aerith for a single post.
And it's actually still relevant.
And you said he could still be searching for her, actually. Among others, but still.

"Also, in KH1, Cloud can be looking for Aeris and his friends from Hallow Bastion as well as Sephiroth. I don't see why it's one or the other. Aeris says in KH2 she knows Cloud is leaving again, which means he must have left home before the Heartless attacked, which would make sense as to why he was seperated from them. So while he's searching for Sephiroth to defeat, he's also looking for a way back home. Simple as that."

But the point is, he's not, that KH:FM tells us what he's looking for, and getting back to his buds/ HB is never listed.
Hell, Cid's proud 'Look what I found!' should tell you Cloud didn't find HB on his own, and his bit in KH2 should tell you he didn't consider his issues settled.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nomura's not a loon, but he does leave a lot of his quotes ambiguous hence why I said using them to solidify your interpretation is pointless. It has nothing to do with not liking or disagreeing, I have no problem with the interpretation Tifa is Cloud's light, I even go by that theory. No biggy. My only problem is acting like that's the end all be all of it, when again, any "statement" made about it are all, "hmm, maybe, well, I don't know, figure it out for yourself".

What he says is not always ambiguous. It's more of his manner of speech in presenting what he knows and feels. It's not really ambiguous regarding who Cloud's light is at all. If he makes an assertion about the storyline and his intent, it's pretty obvious and clear.

When the fuck did this go back to Aeris? I swear you people are more obsessed with her than I am. I only said in the first game Cloud would have wanted to find his way back home, where she happens to be. And if you think Cloud wouldn't have wanted to have gone home with his friends, well, you really know shit about his character and I can't help you there.

You made a wrong assertion, and people called you on it. Not that surprising really.

And again. Cloud's steeped in darkness and his desire to fight Sephiroth. Apparently you don't know his character as much as you think you do. He wasn't interested in finding anyone. If he did, why didn't he mention them, or say anything about returning to his home? Why does the game not show it? In KH2 he even says he could careless about what happens to Hollow Bastion, as long as he can get to Sephiroth. Doesn't sound like a guy who's too interested in his home or friends, to me.

Eat a dick.

Guess that's what happens when some people get backed into a corner in a discussion...

 

[Zee]

But the point is, he's not, that KH:FM tells us what he's looking for, and getting back to his buds/ HB is never listed.

Why does he have to list it? The very fact that he's shown up in the ending should tell you he was planning on heading back to his friends. He also says in KH2 he will always come back.

Cloud's steeped in darkness and his desire to fight Sephiroth. Apparently you don't know his character as much as you think you do. He wasn't interested in finding anyone. If he did, why didn't he mention them, or say anything about returning to his home? Why does the game not show it? In KH2 he even says he could careless about what happens to Hollow Bastion, as long as he can get to Sephiroth. Doesn't sound like a guy who's too interested in his home or friends, to me.

Which is the same as in the start of FF7 when he pretended to be a hardass but was really a marshmallow on the inside. He also said in FF7 he didn't give a shit about the Planet or AVALANCHE, neither of which was true. Same routine.

Unless you're falling into the "Cloud was always an emo badass" end of the fandom, in which case you'd be horribly wrong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why does he have to list it? The very fact that he's shown up in the ending should tell you he was planning on heading back to his friends. He also says in KH2 he will always come back.

Yeah, because Cid dragged him there and found him. That so totally shows he planned on heading back on his own.

And he may have said that to Aerith but that doesn't change the fact he was obsessed with Sephiroth and states that REPEATEDLY in the game.

Which is the same as in the start of FF7 when he pretended to be a hardass but was really a marshmallow on the inside. He also said in FF7 he didn't give a shit about the Planet or AVALANCHE, neither of which was true. Same routine.

FFVII Cloud isn't KH Cloud, nor is he living a false persona which causes him to be taciturn or abrasive. Wrong universe.

If you're gonna claim Cloud was trying oh so hard to get back home, and that he really was looking for a way back EVEN THOUGH THE GAME AND CREATOR SAY NOTHING TO THAT EFFECT...

...It'd be nice if you offered some proof, other than "lol he's not that mean cause look at him in ffvii!!11"

Unless you're falling into the "Cloud was always an emo badass" end of the fandom, in which case you'd be horribly wrong.

Yeah, you're getting your Cloud's mixed up. KH =/= FFVII.

 

[Zee]

Can you put more caps please post was not loud enough

Yeah, you're getting your Cloud's mixed up. KH =/= FFVII.

They're all simplified versions of their FF counterparts, so the comparisons stand.

And he may have said that to Aerith but that doesn't change the fact he was obsessed with Sephiroth and states that REPEATEDLY in the game.

wow lol

That's amazing, what you did just there. I didn't realize a character saying something heartfelt in a scene didn't count 'cause he said it only once.

...It'd be nice if you offered some proof, other than "lol he's not that mean cause look at him in ffvii!!11"

kK 50 L1K3 cL0UD W42 50 n1C3 70 50R4 4nD g4V3 H1M 50M3 5up3R P0W3R uP2 4nd 7h3N 541D 50rRY f0R 831N' M34N 4ND 12 4l50 N1c3 70 43r157H 7h3R3 12 7H47 g00D

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're all simplified versions of their FF counterparts, so the comparisons stand.

Yeah, Squall in KH2 would like to have a word with you. And again, trying to use proofs or examples from Final Fantasy after the creator's said they were separate stories isn't winning you any legitimacy points.

wow lol

That's amazing, what you did just there. I didn't realize a character saying something heartfelt in a scene didn't count 'cause he said it only once.

Yeah, it's called actions speak louder than words. Btw, still waiting for the proof he wanted to return home in KH. You can give it to us at any time.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why does he have to list it? The very fact that he's shown up in the ending should tell you he was planning on heading back to his friends. He also says in KH2 he will always come back.

No, the ending shows Cid pleased with himself at locating Cloud. It does not show that Cloud was LOOKING for anyone there, or that he intended to come back then.

Which is the same as in the start of FF7 when he pretended to be a hardass but was really a marshmallow on the inside. He also said in FF7 he didn't give a shit about the Planet or AVALANCHE, neither of which was true. Same routine.

Unless you're falling into the "Cloud was always an emo badass" end of the fandom, in which case you'd be horribly wrong.

And you got on us about supposedly changing the subject.
Cloud's focus in KH and KH2 is getting rid of Sephiroth. That's who he's looking for in KH, and who he's using as an excuse in KH2.
Nuff said.

 

[Zee]

Yeah, it's called actions speak louder than words. Btw, still waiting for the proof he wanted to return home in KH.

I'll keep in mind that actually saying something to a person you care about doesn't count. Wow, Cloud's a real douchey liar.

Yeah, Squall in KH2 would like to have a word with you. And again, trying to use proofs or examples from Final Fantasy after the creator's said they were separate stories isn't winning you any legitimacy points.

They're the same base characters shaped by a different world. At the SUPERFICIAL BASIC LAYER you can recognize similar attitudes they had in their respective games.

 

[KissTheRain]

Eat a dick.

This for the win. XD Sorry I was just skimming that last couple pages and this caught my eye.

Yeah, Squall in KH2 would like to have a word with you.

"...."

Yeah he would reject you. DX

As for some KH light irrevelvent to canon discussion but is still brought up crap, in the quote asking if Tifa was real or not, if the latter was true than why was it Cloud could see her when it is suggested the others could not, unless possibly she is signifigant to Cloud in a way of his existence as Sephiroth is?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'll keep in mind that actually saying something to a person you care about doesn't count. Wow, Cloud's a real douchey liar.

It's all part of the subplot of Cloud being too obsessed with his darkness and defeating it, to fully understand what he's missing out on, regarding his light.

And way to go at AGAIN not addressing the point. You said Cloud wanted to come home in KH one, so where' the proof? We're STILL waiting it. Can you not stick to a subject and back up your assertions with proof from the actual narrative, or are you gonna keep tapdancing?

They're the same base characters shaped by a different world. At the core you can recognize similar attitudes they had in their respective games.

So if they're shaped by a different world and scenario, they're not really the same, are they? And Squall's base character was that of a taciturn loner. Sure doesn't act like one in KH2. Your point crashed and burned. They have a few similarities but they're different characters in different stories. Most of their similarities are aesthetic if nothing else.

Yuna, Rikku, and Paine would also like to say hi. As would Tidus. And Selphie.

 

[Zee]

The proof is that he says he wants to return home, you just keep dismissing it. You're the one tiptoeing around teh proofz, so don't bitch at me bb.

So if they're shaped by a different world and scenario, they're not really the same, are they? And Squall's base character was that of a taciturn loner. Sure doesn't act like one in KH2. Your point crashed and burned.

Actually, no, the point still stands. Squall is a loner in FF8 because of the events that unfolded in his childhood. Since those events did not happen, the character is shaped differently and therefore acts accordingly. Yuna, Rikku, and Paine acted just as cheesy in X-2, so I don't know why you're trying to use them as an example. Yuffie also remains the same spunky ninja, Selphie and Tidus are both bright and cheery as ever. So where exactly did the point crash and burn, except for in your mind?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The proof is that he says he wants to return home, you just keep dismissing it. You're the one tiptoeing around teh proofz, so don't bitch at me bb.

Where in KH does Cloud say he wants to return home? FYI, KINGDOM HEARTS. Not KINGDOM HEARTS 2.

Actually, no, the point still stands. Squall is a loner in FF8 because of the events that unfolded in his childhood. Since those events did not happen, the character is shaped differently and therefore acts accordingly. Yuna, Rikku, and Paine acted just as cheesy in X-2, so I don't know why you're trying to use them as an example. Yuffie also remains the same spunky ninja, Selphie and Tidus are both bright and cheery as ever. So where exactly did the point crash and burn, except for in your mind?

You just said the FF characters are at the core, the same in KH. Squall's core in FFVIII was that of a loner. It's not present in KH2. Again, in KH2 he's not, ergo he's characterized differently due to the differing events. The core is missing.

Yuna, and Rikku's core characterization came from FFX, not the sequel. Namely Yuna's desire to help others and sacrifice herself, and Rikku's desire to look after her. Rikku and Paine may have been "good enough", but they sure left out the core of Yuna's core personality, which was far from being an airhead. Tidus's core wasn't just him being "bright and cheery." He also had a crybaby mentality and a father complex. I guess you seem to conveniently forget the core aspects and personalities of FF characters when trying to prove a point.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The proof is that he says he wants to return home, you just keep dismissing it. You're the one tiptoeing around teh proofz, so don't bitch at me bb.

If he says he wants to return home in KH/2, you should have no issue providing an example.

Actually, no, the point still stands. Squall is a loner in FF8 because of the events that unfolded in his childhood. Since those events did not happen, the character is shaped differently and therefore acts accordingly.

And so he's a very different person.

Yuna, Rikku, and Paine acted just as cheesy in X-2, so I don't know why you're trying to use them as an example. Yuffie also remains the same spunky ninja, Selphie and Tidus are both bright and cheery as ever. So where exactly did the point crash and burn, except for in your mind?

The point where Tidus and Wakka and Selphie grew up with Kairi, Riku, and Sora, instead of Xanarkand, Besaid, and Trabia garden.
And the point where Y/R/P are inches tall FAIRIES.

 

[Dashell]

Eat a dick.

Oh for the love of.. you are the last Clerith I expected to go there.

He wasn't interested in finding anyone. If he did, why didn't he mention them, or say anything about returning to his home?

Well, wait, didn't he say "I'm looking for someone, Hades promised to help." in KH1?

Also that "Cloud could be looking for X or Y...."... when was that done? I'm assuming before Final Mix came out?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, wait, didn't he say "I'm looking for someone, Hades promised to help." in KH1?

Yeah, and that someone was Sephiroth as I've stated again and again. Gb2/Final Mix.

Also that "Cloud could be looking for X or Y...."... when was that done? I'm assuming before Final Mix came out?

Yeah, the whole "it's up to interpretation" thing, went to hell when Nomura decided to clarify it as Sephiroth when he added Sephy to the game. Tada! Interpretation dead. Fact lives!