So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[I Am Not Me]

Question: Is there a single pro-Clerith point you've seen that you've not been able to reconcile with the other pro-Cloti evidence?

In layman's terms, please?

 

[KissTheRain]

You did not just use one of my trademarked sayings. Someone tell me I did not see that.

No I made it up myself, I don't know what your talking about, i'm completely original and did not see it while surfing through old posts in this thread and totally created it.
.

Interpretation is individual..........So, all of this: "Well, I see the scene THIS way" shit is ridiculous.

Again with the interpretation speak. Please, we're here to deal with CANON FACTS THE CREATORS THEMSELVES HAVE MADE CLEAR TIME AND TIME AGAIN and NOT THE FACTS YOU'VE ESTABLISHED BY YOUR AWESOME CREATIVE MIND.

I came on too strong. I know, I know you need facts it's the solid basis on deciding what is canon. When I said you could interpret a scene some way was more a suttle way of saying like "I think Cloud/Tifa only did oral under the highwind" while on the contaray many say they went all the way or something like that. Interpretation is just there for unclear ideas in the story that have not been solved to you. Yes, possibly it has been solved, but seeing by the swarms of Clerith's on the internet it's not completely clear to them. Maybe they are delusional and retarded and blind of the compilation because of their bias Clerith goggles, but they aren't buying it.

 

[☆ ℓαυяєη &#]

No I made it up myself, I don't know what your talking about, i'm completely original and did not see it while surfing through old posts in this thread and totally created it.
.


I came on too strong. I know, I know you need facts it's the solid basis on deciding what is canon. When I said you could interpret a scene some way was more a suttle way of saying like "I think Cloud/Tifa only did oral under the highwind" while on the contaray many say they went all the way or something like that. Interpretation is just there for unclear ideas in the story that have not been solved to you. Yes, possibly it has been solved, but seeing by the swarms of Clerith's on the internet it's not completely clear to them. Maybe they are delusional and retarded and blind of the compilation because of their bias Clerith goggles, but they aren't buying it.

Hey guys im new here, but just to let u all no i found this on Final Fantasy Wiki under Tifa's profile about the Highwind scene and saw this:

Cloud dismisses the party members, instructing them to find a reason to fight. Tifa stays behind with Cloud, as she had nowhere else to go. Depending on the player's interactions with her during the game, the following scene has two possible dialogue course, either implying a strong romantic connection, or little at all. In the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Story's section for Final Fantasy VII, however, the more romantic option's text and an accompanying screen-shots are shown, implying it the official or "canon" version

Doesn't that say it all?...i dunno if u guys have seen this before but i thought it was weird how some people thought Tifa got rejected?

 

[Celes Chere]

Is there a single pro-Clerith point you've seen that you've not been able to reconcile with the other pro-Cloti evidence?

Well, that does it. There's no beating this 2 second blip in the credits. Time to turn Clerith now. =0 After all, this is the scene that shows Aerith is Cloud's love and light!1!

 

[KissTheRain]

For one Laurin, I wouldn't trust wikipedia it's a fan edited site, and for the highwind scene the high affection version is referred to in the FF 20th Anneversary Ultimania making it the so called canon out of the two. If is is a strong romantic connection you decide. c:

AU GAME CELES!! I know it doesn't do anything for the canon of FFVII, but I do think that it is cute if she is his light. :3

 

[☆ ℓαυяєη &#]

For one Laurin, I wouldn't trust wikipedia it's a fan edited site, and for the highwind scene the high affection version is referred to in the FF 20th Anneversary Ultimania making it the so called canon out of the two. If is is a strong romantic connection you decide. c:

AU GAME CELES!! I know it doesn't do anything for the canon of FFVII, but I do think that it is cute if she is his light. :3

Ok then

 

[Celes Chere]

but I do think that it is cute if she is his light. :3

A shame then, that she isn't.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I came on too strong.

So did I. But it wasn't just you. I didn't even realize it was you until you replied just now. I just saw the word 'interpretation' and I got riled up. Check some FFVII videos on Youtube and look at the comments. They will boggle your mind and probably disable you from thinking logically for a few agonizing moments.

because of their bias Clerith goggles, but they aren't buying it.

Exactly this. It's common knowledge that people would rather see what they want to see. Hence why Cleriths won't buy Cloti. It's that simple. They want Clerith, they have Clerith. They don't want Cloti, they don't have it. That doesn't change the authorial intent that Nojima and co. has of shoving Cloti down our throats pretty much in different parts of the Compilation. Perhaps my biased Clerith goggles were broken at some point, because I learned while going through the compilation that Cloti is the canon not Clerith. Even though I started playing the game for Clerith.

If we look closely, Cloti has been emphasized A LOT within the FFVII verse. One prime example would be the Nibelheim incident. We have Last Order, Crisis Core, and FFVII itself. The Last Order scene in which there was Cloti interaction was put in the Ultimania. Heck, they even put a heavy reference of the promise there in that 20 minute anime. In Crisis Core, which is Zack's story, we are bombarded with Cloud's issues with Tifa and Tifa looking for a blond SOLDIER via spam in Zack's phone. We see a fanservicey scene of Tifa helping Cloud down Mt. Nibel. I don't even need to go to the original game.

And that is just one example.

Where do we get heavy Clerith? At all? Disc 1 of FFVII. In which, by the way, the creators pointed out that Cloud was not in his right mind and wasn't even aware that Aerith and Tifa liked him. References to Clerith? In AC/C? Flowers? Rain? The church?

Flowers - Uhh, yeah. What of

Spoiler

the flowers on top of Zack...'s grave? And Zack's sword piercing Aerith's flowers

? Wow, exclusive Clerith reference there.

Rain - Sure. Everyone else who bathed in the rain are Cleriths. IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE!

The church - Yeah. Except

Spoiler

Zack's sword was relocated there

.

Heck, DoC didn't even have Clerith reference. But it had a Cloti reference--of guess what? That's right, the promise. The promise which is something Clerith did not and never will have.

But maybe I'm wearing my Cloti shades and being too biased?

Or maybe the huge (much huge) number of Cloti fans are all delusional as well? Maybe Nojima and co. are also delusional and biased.

I don't really get how hard it is to see what's just there. Unless of course, they choose not to see it. But choosing not to see and seeing what's there and not getting it are two entirely different things.

Edit:

Hi thar, Lauren. Welcome to the LTD! And KTR already answered your question. XD

 

[Tennyo]

For one Laurin, I wouldn't trust wikipedia it's a fan edited site, and for the highwind scene the high affection version is referred to in the FF 20th Anneversary Ultimania making it the so called canon out of the two. If is is a strong romantic connection you decide. c:

Go in there with obvious evidence and edit to reflect the truth and no more than five minutes later someone will go and change what you wrote because they claim it isn't true. That's an online Wiki for you.

AU GAME CELES!! I know it doesn't do anything for the canon of FFVII, but I do think that it is cute if she is his light. :3

Uh oh, KH ending, guess I'm throwing in the towel.

And unfortunately KH doesn't really imply that Aerith is Cloud's light. I mean, in KH2 they have one scene together, and then after that Aerith isn't involved in the important parts of Cloud's battle at ALL. Tifa is the one who shows up and makes him start glowing. Tifa is the one who blinds Cloud since, according to Seph, he's become so steeped in darkness that he can't handle the light.

I don't even think we need an Ultimania to see the obvious here.

 

[Celes Chere]

Tifa is the one who blinds Cloud since, according to Seph, he's become so steeped in darkness that he can't handle the light.

Some have said that Aerith's light surrounded him, even though she wasn't there. The light he glows with is Aerith's light, and the blinding light is Tifa.

Of course, this is well, laughable.

 

[I Am Not Me]

I don't even think we need an Ultimania to see the obvious here.

We don't need the Ultimania for everything OBVIOUS, rly.

 

[Tennyo]

Some have said that Aerith's light surrounded him, even though she wasn't there. The light he glows with is Aerith's light, and the blinding light is Tifa.

Of course, this is well, laughable.

This has never made sense to me. ANY type of light would be blinding to Cloud. And not light as in sunlight but the KH in-your-heart type. Logic would imply that had Aerith been his light she would have blinded him as well. But she didn't. They chat a bit, she gives him encouraging words like any good friend would, and from that point on Cloud and Aerith have nothing to do with each other for the rest of the game.

But then Tifa comes in and is a central part to the main conflict and climax of Cloud's side story.

And then later on you can fight the two of them (together) in the Hades Cup.

Not that I would use the Hades cup as proof but I just decided to mention that.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

That was a serious question I posed, you guys.

I did think Aerith was the person Cloud was looking for at the end of KH; but when you see him with Aerith in KH2, it doesn't particularly look like he's found his light. So unless it's a case like in AC, where his happiness is right under his nose but something's crept up his arse and driven him away from it, I don't think Aerith is his light.

 

[A]

Well, that does it. There's no beating this 2 second blip in the credits. Time to turn Clerith now. =0 After all, this is the scene that shows Aerith is Cloud's love and light!1!

Staring at someone obviously means that Aerith is Cloud's love.

-looks at Johnny Depp poster-

I did think Aerith was the person Cloud was looking for at the end of KH; but when you see him with Aerith in KH2, it doesn't particularly look like he's found his light. So unless it's a case like in AC, where his happiness is right under his nose but something's crept up his arse and driven him away from it, I don't think Aerith is his light.

Aerith's the one to encourage him to look for his light. Unless Aerith's playing the bitch game by having Cloud look for his light when she's right there, she can't be his light.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I did think Aerith was the person Cloud was looking for at the end of KH

I think a lot of people got confused with that, hence why they added Aerith stating herself that Cloud was looking for Sephiroth in FM.

 

[Makoeyes987]

People will never stop believing what they want to believe. That about sums it up.

I could yell til I'm blue in the face that Tifa is Cloud's light, but people would still chirp that it was Aerith.

I could scream that Cloud's crystal in Dissidia isn't the right shape or color for it to be the White Materia, but there'd be people crying that there is.

Nojima, Nomura, and God could say that Cloud and Tifa are together and people would still say its "up to interpretation."

Why?

Because there are people out there who will only accept what they want to hear. The same type of people who think Ulquiorra/Orihime, Shikamaru/Temari, Kagome/Koga, and Vincent/Yuffie are canon. Why?

Because they want it to be.

 

[Zee]

First off, I'm kind of tickled that everyone responded seriously to something that was either not directed at them or was obviously a joke. I don't know what it is about this thread that makes people lose their sense of humor or go into capslock rage. C:


Anywayyyy, on the subject of...KH? Loord. There's only a few interpretations and all of them have plot holes because Nomura didn't know what the hell he was doing when he put Tifa in. He even said it was up for the fans to decide, so I don't get where everyone is acting like she is or isn't.

In KH2 she is portrayed as a light to counter balance Sephiroth, which would make her a physical manifestation of the Light as Sephiroth is the darkness, which goes along with that hint Nomura said about her possibly not being human. The major flaw in this isn't even about the colors of the light or whether or not Cloud recieved it-- it's that she doesn't seem to know where Cloud is, whereas Sephiroth, being a part of Cloud, can. She is also unable to follow him and Sephiroth for their battle, saying they went into "their world". Being a part of Cloud, she would have just as much of a right to join the battle. Tifa also says she'll have to "keep looking" which means she's either lost Cloud or hasn't given him the light yet.

So really, tl;dr there's pros and cons to the theory, which is why it's argued over, but it's really not such a big deal that it has to be debated.

Also, in KH1, Cloud can be looking for Aeris and his friends from Hallow Bastion as well as Sephiroth. I don't see why it's one or the other. Aeris says in KH2 she knows Cloud is leaving again, which means he must have left home before the Heartless attacked, which would make sense as to why he was seperated from them. So while he's searching for Sephiroth to defeat, he's also looking for a way back home. Simple as that.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Also, in KH1, Cloud can be looking for Aeris and his friends from Hallow Bastion as well as Sephiroth.

Aerith herself says he's looking for Sephiroth in FM. I don't see how who he's looking for is up to interpretation.

 

[Zee]

Aerith herself says he's looking for Sephiroth in FM. I don't see how who he's looking for is up to interpretation.

Hi reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeead. I didn't say he wasn't looking for Sephiroth. Only that he was also looking for a way home after being flung way the fuck out into Hercules-land. Unless you think he was setting up camp there or something, idk.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Cloud could be doing a lot of things. But he doesn't say anything about trying to find anyone else. He says that he's looking for someone. Aerith says that person is Sephiroth.

If Cloud was flung there, how would Aerith know that he's gone looking for someone? Convenient that the place where he's sent to has a means for him to find this person (ie, making a deal with Hades).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Anywayyyy, on the subject of...KH? Loord. There's only a few interpretations and all of them have plot holes because Nomura didn't know what the hell he was doing when he put Tifa in. He even said it was up for the fans to decide, so I don't get where everyone is acting like she is or isn't.

He never said it was up to fans to decide if Tifa was Cloud's light or not. And I don't see how he was confused about what to do with her at all. She was clearly defined as the one looking for Cloud to give him his light.

In KH2 she is portrayed as a light to counter balance Sephiroth, which would make her a physical manifestation of the Light as Sephiroth is the darkness, which goes along with that hint Nomura said about her possibly not being human. The major flaw in this isn't even about the colors of the light or whether or not Cloud recieved it-- it's that she doesn't seem to know where Cloud is, whereas Sephiroth, being a part of Cloud, can. She is also unable to follow him and Sephiroth for their battle, saying they went into "their world". Being a part of Cloud, she would have just as much of a right to join the battle. Tifa also says she'll have to "keep looking" which means she's either lost Cloud or hasn't given him the light yet.

Not really a flaw at all. Cloud is actively trying to run from her and chase after Sephiroth. By him going after his darkness and turning away from his light, that separates him from her.

And how did she not give him his light when clearly Cloud received his light which chased back the darkness (i.e. Sephiroth)? Again. Tifa isn't just completely apart of Cloud. Nomura said they were thinking of doing that. But then they made her more of a person as well. So discussing her as just a that's only an extension of Cloud makes no sense. She has to go look for him just like Sora had to look for Kairi and a way back home to the one he cared for.

Also, in KH1, Cloud can be looking for Aeris and his friends from Hallow Bastion as well as Sephiroth. I don't see why it's one or the other. Aeris says in KH2 she knows Cloud is leaving again, which means he must have left home before the Heartless attacked, which would make sense as to why he was seperated from them. So while he's searching for Sephiroth to defeat, he's also looking for a way back home. Simple as that.

It's never stated or shown that Cloud was looking for anyone from Hollow Bastion. If he was, why was he at Olympus Colosseum looking for Sephiroth as stated by Nomura and the game proper? Trying to say he was looking for Aerith or anyone else is wrong. And Cloud didn't leave home before the Heartless attacked. He got caught up in the confusion and ended up there at Olympus Coliseum. He was never looking for a way home. That's straight out of the KH Ultimania.

 

[Ryushikaze]

First off, I'm kind of tickled that everyone responded seriously to something that was either not directed at them or was obviously a joke. I don't know what it is about this thread that makes people lose their sense of humor or go into capslock rage. C:

Poe's Law. In short, use more smilies.

Anywayyyy, on the subject of...KH? Loord. There's only a few interpretations and all of them have plot holes because Nomura didn't know what the hell he was doing when he put Tifa in. He even said it was up for the fans to decide, so I don't get where everyone is acting like she is or isn't.

In KH2 she is portrayed as a light to counter balance Sephiroth, which would make her a physical manifestation of the Light as Sephiroth is the darkness, which goes along with that hint Nomura said about her possibly not being human.

That same 'hint' about her maybe not being human that confirms she's the light, you mean.

The major flaw in this isn't even about the colors of the light or whether or not Cloud recieved it-- it's that she doesn't seem to know where Cloud is, whereas Sephiroth, being a part of Cloud, can. She is also unable to follow him and Sephiroth for their battle, saying they went into "their world". Being a part of Cloud, she would have just as much of a right to join the battle. Tifa also says she'll have to "keep looking" which means she's either lost Cloud or hasn't given him the light yet.

I think you're attributing a prescience to KHSephy that he's never really displayed. He knows Cloud is around, but he has no Clue where. This is similar to how Tifa is when searching with Cloud, and how Cloud was when searching for Sephy.
As for 'keep looking', and 'their world', I don't think it's entirely a literal statement.
Of course, I follow the whole 'Light and Person' idea, which explains away a lot of the wholes- Sora didn't know where Kairi was specifically despite their link.

So really, tl;dr there's pros and cons to the theory, which is why it's argued over, but it's really not such a big deal that it has to be debated.

Really though, the flaw would more reveal inconsistencies with the KH cosmology, since it's WordOfGod that she's the light.

Also, in KH1, Cloud can be looking for Aeris and his friends from Hallow Bastion as well as Sephiroth. I don't see why it's one or the other. Aeris says in KH2 she knows Cloud is leaving again, which means he must have left home before the Heartless attacked, which would make sense as to why he was seperated from them. So while he's searching for Sephiroth to defeat, he's also looking for a way back home. Simple as that.

Possible, but never hinted at, and the gang seems to know what he's up to in a vague sense, such as Aerith wondering if he's found "that man" (I think that's the line) yet.

 

[Zee]

If Cloud was flung there, how would Aerith know that he's gone looking for someone?

Because he would have left previous to being flung into Herc-world. Hence why in KH2 she says he's leaving again. Hence...why I said that before in my post but okay.

As for 'keep looking', and 'their world', I don't think it's entirely a literal statement.

Why not? They both leave into a big beam of whatthefuck...why wouldn't she keep looking for them? And "their world" just made me think of the head!space at the end of ff7, so I thought it was a nod to that.

That same 'hint' about her maybe not being human that confirms she's the light, you mean.

Actually, Nomura says she could or couldn't be human, so it doesn't really confirm anything.

Really though, the flaw would more reveal inconsistencies with the KH cosmology, since it's WordOfGod that she's the light.

No, word of God says ~interpretationz~ and that you could interpret her as being the light, but it wasn't a big deal if you didn't.

He was never looking for a way home.

So he was just gonna kick back and chill with Hades rather than try to get back to his friends. Okay.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because he would have left previous to being flung into Herc-world. Hence why in KH2 she says he's leaving again. Hence...why I said that before in my post but okay.

Question: We'd also like to ask a setting-type question about Cloud. Was he originally from Hollow Bastion?

Nomura: In the Kingdom Hearts setting, at any rate, yes.

Question: In which case, when Cid took the others and escaped from Hollow Bastion, was Cloud left behind?

Nomura: He was just lost in the confusion, he wasn't really left behind (laughs). Because presumably Cid and co were escaping in the midst of the disarray.

No, word of God says ~interpretationz~ and that you could interpret her as being the light, but it wasn't a big deal if you didn't.

Wrong.

Speaking of Tifa, there's an event where she talked to Cloud after beating Sephiroth.
In Nojima-san's scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa's connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light"; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human. The reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn't exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can feely think for yourself about her.

The statement was about her being human or not. Not about the fact she is LIGHT to Cloud.

So he was just gonna kick back and chill with Hades rather than try to get back to his friends. Okay.

More like he was too obsessed over fighting Sephiroth to give a damn. If he was so interested in returning home, give some evidence of this claim.

 

[Zee]

Her not being human is the base argument or interpretation for her being the light.

For example. if you look at it like "if Sephiroth is darkness to Cloud, then the light is Tifa," people might take it as Tifa being something not like a regular human being. Then maybe the reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone besides Sora, Donald and Goofy is because she doesn't exist as a human being. Of course, it's made so you could also look at it like she's an inhabitant of Hollow Bastion like Cid, Aerith, and the others. I hope people will think about it freely.


Wow, might, maybe, think about it freely! Gee, that's so solid, I'm sold.

More like he was too obsessed over fighting Sephiroth to give a damn. If he was so interested in returning home, give some evidence of this claim.

Q: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
A: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

So no, thinking Cloud was searching for Aeris as well as Sephiroth is not baseless. :3