So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Isabella]

It's one of the funnier arguments out there. Tifa goes from being madly in love with him to suddenly being his mother, while at the same time asking him if he loves her (as any good son should love his mother, no doubt).

 

[Dashell]

Tifa: Cloud, do you love me.
Cloud: No
Tifa: Go to your room.

Also may as well post these for now.

I've actually started writing up my own analysis on the LTD:
http://www.killthemongoose.com/koibito.php
http://www.killthemongoose.com/dissidia.php

That's all I have so far... what do you think? ... ignore the two 4s on the Dissidia page, i just haven't gotten around to fixing that yet. Next up is the CoLW koibito.

 

[Vendel]

... or will I just be countered with another Tifa is the mother thing ...?

Yeah I find it amusing how many roles Tifa holds in the family. According to the pinkers Tifa is either Marlene and Denzel's older sister or like a mother. She is Clouds sister or mother or friend or even collage roommate. Anything but girlfriend.

As for what is the family unit? As you said all the official statements in the Ult and such all name Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel as the family unit. From C & T's profiles to the AC playback. They are the parents and children living in 7th Heaven. Also Barret did not start the family. He removed himself from that very early on.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa is Cloud's mom. Duh.

And Cloud is Tifa's Sugardaddy.

Tifa and Aerith are both referred to as motherly in some way. So obviously, they're lesbians together because it's disgusting for any sig other to have motherly feelings for their boyfriend/girlfriend and they never call each other mom. So clearly, they're having some spirit lovings.

Aside from the necrotic nature of this specific example, I approve of it.

It's one of the funnier arguments out there. Tifa goes from being madly in love with him to suddenly being his mother, while at the same time asking him if he loves her (as any good son should love his mother, no doubt).

When she gets deluded enough to think she might have a chance, she stops accepting her role as mom and thinks of herself as the lover. The WHORE.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I hadn't even thought about that until now. Cloud himself says it's his family and separates them from 'his friends' in the same breath.

Welcome to what I said years ago. You don't even need Ultimanias. Cloud separates the two in one line in AC.

Everything that follows is the Clerii grasping them straws really hard.

EDIT:
Cloud also singles Tifa out when he talks about being noticed, and wanting TIFA to notice him, and apologizing especially to Tifa and so on and so forth. The Clerii still try to say Cloud wanted to be accepted by everyone (hence him beating them up. Of course they were gonna love him after that )

 

[Vendel]

Everything that follows is the Clerii grasping them straws really hard.

Not to be rude...

But isn't most of the "Clerith is Canon"* evidence one long straw grasp after another? I haven't been around long in this whole business. But it didn't take me very long to figure out that CiC takes a lot of effort. Effort that I don't think any reasonable fan (let alone a writer) would go through to show a pairing.

I envision a rabid Clertih as Russell Crowe in 'A beautiful Mind'.


*And don't let them fool you. Many claim now that there is no canon pairing. I have seen the archives. I have even seen a shift since I have been around.

 

[Isabella]

*And don't let them fool you. Many claim now that there is no canon pairing. I have seen the archives. I have even seen a shift since I have been around.

Yeah, mostly these days their goal is to prove Cloti isn't canon, rather than to prove anything about Clerith. It hasn't always been that way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What an amusing shift in perspective.

 

[Dashell]

I wonder if it'll ever be "Cloti is canon but Clerith is much much better!" or something

 

[Roger]

Welcome to what I said years ago. You don't even need Ultimanias. Cloud separates the two in one line in AC.

Everything that follows is the Clerii grasping them straws really hard.

EDIT:
Cloud also singles Tifa out when he talks about being noticed, and wanting TIFA to notice him, and apologizing especially to Tifa and so on and so forth. The Clerii still try to say Cloud wanted to be accepted by everyone (hence him beating them up. Of course they were gonna love him after that )

You can go out on a date with her in the original game. Is that a straw? Cloud can repeatedly make comments like "Let's hope so." (on whether or not Aerith likes her) "Next to you, who wouldn't sleep well" (to Tifa) on both Tifa and Aerith.

Considering that Kadaj, Sephy, Zack and Aerith are hanging out in the lifestream and Cloud was sent packing it's pretty obvious who'se gonna end up with who. But that doesn't mean Cloud's feelings are as clear cut as "He is in love with Tifa and likes Aerith as a friend."

 

[Dashell]

.. Damn thought you were gonna be a full blown Clerith..

Yeah we've discussed that, since it's up to the player to decide who Cloud liked, it's very possible he had romantic feelings for her. (at least I've always thought so) It's also a Red Herring of sorts. They made it look like Cloud and Aerith were going to be THE couple for a reason.
but IMO once the Lifestream event happened, Cloud's feelings were sorted out. He realized who he was meant to be with and is thus with

 

[Roger]

I am a fullblown Clerith! At least I want to be. Damn my rational mind. All this shipping crap is Zack's fault.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You can be a fullblown Clerith while keeping a rational mind that understands the plot and its actual progression and statement regarding who Cloud is with now and why.

Why does liking a pairing mean you've gotta say its canon too?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

What Mako says. Shipping a pairing and liking it doesn't mean you can't accept canon. Hell, some of the best fandom pairings are crack pairings. There's just more to play with. But canon is canon. FFVII's compilation has a clear narrative, and within it, canon couples are clearly established.

 

[aniron]

What Mako says. Shipping a pairing and liking it doesn't mean you can't accept canon. Hell, some of the best fandom pairings are crack pairings. There's just more to play with. But canon is canon. FFVII's compilation has a clear narrative, and within it, canon couples are clearly established.

Always thought that it was a good thing to ship as many pairings as you like (and ANY pairing you like), but not to be too serious about it. Even canon pairings.
Clerii of the pink forum just seem a bit hardcore, they don't accept Cloti in any form or fashion. I personally think that it shows their insecurity in their own vision of canon.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I ship everything I can because damn if it isn't fun sticking characters together.

 

[Sunstrider]

So far as shifts in perspective go, I don't think that's a problem in and of itself. After new material is released about a subject, it's natural that people might change their minds about certain aspects of said subject. My own opinions about the LTD in particular have changed a lot from AC to reading interviews and Ultimania translations and the like. I think the problem lies in the fact that people refuse to just be honest and admit "I did believe/say this at one point, but I changed my mind because of x, y, and z."

Considering that Kadaj, Sephy, Zack and Aerith are hanging out in the lifestream and Cloud was sent packing it's pretty obvious who'se gonna end up with who. But that doesn't mean Cloud's feelings are as clear cut as "He is in love with Tifa and likes Aerith as a friend."

I think Aerith's role when it came to Cloud changed with her death. It doesn't mean that she never had feelings for him or that she was never a potential, romantic interest, but it seems to me like she accepts her role as a mother/guardian figure to watch over Cloud now, despite her strong, romantic feelings for him. Saying she's become this maternal or friendly guardian doesn't have to mean that their relationship was always just that. I mean, I've said before that if Aerith is a mother to Cloud while she's alive in FFVII, that's a kind of twisted mother/son relationship with her being all up on his junk.

 

[Kikyou]

I take it you didn't care about the essay, Mira? I'm wondering what your feelings are about it since you're a Clerith. =O I'm wondering if you think it's unfair too or if it's no biggie. x]

My answer might make me sound like a traitor or a heretic or something, but I honestly liked SoS's essay better than the refutes posted in the CxA forums in response to it. The biggest reason why I like it? The voice. As a Clerith reading his essay, I felt no malice or insults from author to reader. He does not mock any of the counter arguments when he addresses them, just calmly presents his arguments. I felt this lacking in some of the posts I read in the SoS essay response thread at CxA, and even the thread title itself gave no respect to the essay's author. It is sad, because I can tell he put a lot effort in his work. I don't think his essay is unfair. You have to take a side in order to make an argument.

As for the News section at CxA made recently, please do not assume all of us members agree with the section description or the course of action that has taken place.

 

[Tennyo]

What is this news section you speak of, Mira?

So far as shifts in perspective go, I don't think that's a problem in and of itself. After new material is released about a subject, it's natural that people might change their minds about certain aspects of said subject. My own opinions about the LTD in particular have changed a lot from AC to reading interviews and Ultimania translations and the like. I think the problem lies in the fact that people refuse to just be honest and admit "I did believe/say this at one point, but I changed my mind because of x, y, and z."



I think Aerith's role when it came to Cloud changed with her death. It doesn't mean that she never had feelings for him or that she was never a potential, romantic interest, but it seems to me like she accepts her role as a mother/guardian figure to watch over Cloud now, despite her strong, romantic feelings for him. Saying she's become this maternal or friendly guardian doesn't have to mean that their relationship was always just that. I mean, I've said before that if Aerith is a mother to Cloud while she's alive in FFVII, that's a kind of twisted mother/son relationship with her being all up on his junk.

I agree with this entire post. These are my thoughts on the LTD EXACTLY!

 

[Makoeyes987]

M-Mira is probably one of the coolest Clerith fans I've ever met.

 

[Tennyo]

Ditto that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What is this news section you speak of, Mira?

I think...this is what she's referring to.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, mostly these days their goal is to prove Cloti isn't canon, rather than to prove anything about Clerith. It hasn't always been that way.

I'd argue it has for several people. At least their methodology, not their goal. They tried to prove Cloti couldn't be, ergo Clerith by default.
Granted, yes, they don't seem to be trying to prove C/A any longer.

My answer might make me sound like a traitor or a heretic or something, but I honestly liked SoS's essay better than the refutes posted in the CxA forums in response to it. The biggest reason why I like it? The voice. As a Clerith reading his essay, I felt no malice or insults from author to reader. He does not mock any of the counter arguments when he addresses them, just calmly presents his arguments. I felt this lacking in some of the posts I read in the SoS essay response thread at CxA, and even the thread title itself gave no respect to the essay's author. It is sad, because I can tell he put a lot effort in his work. I don't think his essay is unfair. You have to take a side in order to make an argument.

From what I saw, the majority of the thread gave the man no respect, and many maliciously accused him of a horrible bias. The irony of such statements being lost on the speakers, it seemed.

As for the News section at CxA made recently, please do not assume all of us members agree with the section description or the course of action that has taken place.

Now you've got me curious.

Addendum: Followed the link, skimmed the post. All I really read since I don't have time to get into that was that Anastar continues her practice of semantic foul play, as it were. She would like to pretend that Risque is only 'suggestive' of impropriety, but also from dictionary.com, I get this definition.

ris⋅qué  [ri-skey; Fr. rees-key] Show IPA
–adjective
daringly close to indelicacy or impropriety; off-color: a risqué story.
Origin:
1865–70; < F, ptp. of risquer to risk

Synonyms:
broad, gross, indecent, ribald.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

Off-color, daringly close to indelicacy or impropriety. DARINGLY CLOSE.

There's also the idea that 'suggestive' means it doesn't confirm.
But I have two points, when you say something 'suggestive', it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means you're dancing around the point of something that is there. For example, let's look at a definition "3. evocative; presented partially rather than in detail."
Secondly, when you use the 'suggestive' definition for risque, you can't use the 'risque' definition for suggestive. That's circular and thus invalid. Therefore, to use the suggestive definition of risque means you gotta use another definition of suggestive, such as 'evocative or presented partially rather in detail', which fits how risque actually gets used in the modern parlance.

Of course, this is all technically irrelevant, as risque is a translation of the original word meaning 'practically obscene' or words to that effect, so, yeah.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You should read my posts Ryu

I linked to what she was talking about.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I never got how so many CxA members claim they believe Nomura left the couple up to interpretation. I recall one member, can't remember who though, saying directly to me "I've never said CxA is canon".