So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Vendel]

Of course they are. You say they are so it must be true. I should try that sometime.

Yes. If someone ask you why something is true. Simply tell them. "Because Vendel says so".

 

[Makoeyes987]

Seriously. People need to strip away the names of "Cloud" and "Tifa" when analyzing this shit, and look at this objectively. How in the heck does it make sense for a platonic roommate to just go into your room and stand over you and ask "do you love me?" Unless they have mental problems?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Raq, Drake, when I say UTTER LACK OF AMENITIES, I mean UTTER LACK. Not even a place to put clothes, just the cot, the desk, and a spare tire.

That's not a room you live in, that's a room you use from time to time.

Also, in addition to the creepy factor of Tifa just walking in AFTER MAKING SURE HE WAS ASLEEP, I note AGAIN the complete lack of any movement described in the scene.
Talking occam's razor, we conclude there's NO MOVEMENT, IE, she was there the entire time. And why would she be there the entire time? They were sleeping together.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud doesn't need clothes. He wears the same thing every day, didn't you know? He sleeps in a bedroom with a rickety old bed, and a tire, and that's enough. Tifa loves her men to have an utter lack of hygiene and personal care.

She likes her men ripe.

 

[Kikyou]

Cloud doesn't need clothes. He wears the same thing every day, didn't you know? He sleeps in a bedroom with a rickety old bed, and a tire, and that's enough. Cloud loves her men to have an utter lack of hygiene and personal care.

She likes her men ripe.

Why the shift in pronouns, Mako? The dude crossdresses, he doesn't go to Hojo to change genders.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Stealth edit fail.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

There's something fundamentally obtuse about assuming that for some reason, Tifa would go violate Cloud's privacy, go into his room while he's sleeping late at night, wake him up in his room to ask him a question, and then stand there all night long waiting for an answer and watching him sleep til morning.

Tifa is worried about her relationship with Cloud. She's got a lot on her mind, she goes to ask him a question. He wakes up, they talk, he goes back to sleep, she stays there thinking. I don't find it creepy at all. Tifa's been thinking, as I said already she has a lot on her mind. I've stared at my cats sleeping thinking about random shit. And I've stared off into just plain empty space.

That seriously makes no sense. The text does not allude to Tifa being a creepy ass stalker roommate.

And she isn't.

I don't care how close you are to someone. You don't just wake them up in the middle of the night to ask them an intimate romantic question and then stay there, in their room while they sleep.

Honestly, I'm not sure that's exactly how it plays out. Copy and pasted right from here.

After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him. “We’ll be all right, won’t we?”
Of course, there was no answer. I only heard the sound of him sleeping. I wondered if the fact that he was sleeping here meant that he was part of the family.
“Do you love me?”
Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.
“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”
“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”
“Even though we’ve been together for some time?”
“Maybe that just isn’t enough.”
“Even we aren’t enough for you?”
Cloud didn’t answer.
“Sorry for asking some strange things.”
“Don’t apologize. It’s my problem.”
Cloud closed his eyes.
“Let’s work hard together.
Tifa waited for his answer, thought she couldn't hear it even if she waited until the morning.

First, I'm not sure she deliberately woke him up. He just seemed to wake up while she spoke to him. No mention of her shaking him awake or calling his name to get him up. She just stands there thinking aloud and Cloud wakes up. Then when he's awake, she addresses him with "hey Cloud".

Second, it says she couldn't hear it "even if she waited until the morning". Doesn't say she did for sure. "Even if" sounds like she didn't, it implies her doing something different than what was done. "Even if I had gone over there, it wouldn't have mattered". "I couldn't have helped even if I had tried to get there in time". "I couldn't have heard his answer even if I waited until the morning".

BTW Mako, once upon a time you wished for in-depth debates like this. What happened?

 

[Fighter]

+1. Seriously...

 

[Ryushikaze]

Drake... Let me point out After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him. It's the 'making sure he's asleep' that makes her coming in come of as ultra creepy.

This isn't 'Oops, thought you were awake' this is 'Okay, he's asleep now. Let's go in.'

 

[Dashell]

I can't believe we're on this thing about whether or not they were sharing a room. I guess I can see her MAYBE going into his room and asking if he loved her/Marlene but the standing there all night thing is weird.

But as Drake just pointed out... maybe she didn't wait all night there.
To me it doesn't matter if you share a bed or not. You can still be lovers if you don't. I have problems and I can't really share a bed all the time with someone. Rob and I actually have separate rooms. He's good to put up with me really...
Plus he snores

 

[Isabella]

“We’ll be all right, won’t we?”
“Do you love me?”

This conversation is classic Struggling Couple. I guess I don't see how anyone can take it otherwise.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Drake... Let me point out After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him. It's the 'making sure he's asleep' that makes her coming in come of as ultra creepy.

This isn't 'Oops, thought you were awake' this is 'Okay, he's asleep now. Let's go in.'

That's just reinforces she didn't mean to deliberately wake him. If Tifa wanted to ask Cloud a question, why make sure he's asleep, and then wake him up and ask him? Why not just ask him before he falls asleep?

 

[Dashell]

But who wants to see that Bella? I wanna see Brady Bunch and Full House and... uh... Sesame Street... or something.

 

[Fighter]

Drake... Let me point out After making certain that Cloud was asleep, she spoke to him. It's the 'making sure he's asleep' that makes her coming in come of as ultra creepy.

This. And all of you who say it wouldn't be creepy for you in real life, I don't believe you.

 

[Dashell]

Okay I didn't see all the posts before I made mine... yeah if she was standing there waiting for him to fall asleep, that's is a bit creepy. Or if she was waiting outside his room and then walked in... yeah it's creepy...

 

[DrakeClawfang]

This. And all of you who say it wouldn't be creepy for you in real life, I don't believe you.

Well it wouldn't be, not for me.

It actually happened one night when I was a kid, like five or six. I vividly remember being woken up in the night by my dad and being taken to my aunt's house because there was an emergency and he and my mom had to go somewhere and needed her to watch me. I was half-asleep, I didn't know what was going on enough to be scared or startled. I was confused of course, I was woken up in the middle of the night and shipped off to my aunt's, but I wasn't frightened.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Tifa is worried about her relationship with Cloud. She's got a lot on her mind, she goes to ask him a question. He wakes up, they talk, he goes back to sleep, she stays there thinking. I don't find it creepy at all. Tifa's been thinking, as I said already she has a lot on her mind. I've stared at my cats sleeping thinking about random shit. And I've stared off into just plain empty space.

She just doesn't stay there thinking..she stays there thinking all night long until the morning.

Standing in another person's room all night long looking at them sleep is not...normal. Staring at your cat, versus staring at another person who's rooming in your place is not the same thing. Especially all night long into the morning.

First, I'm not sure she deliberately woke him up. He just seemed to wake up while she spoke to him. No mention of her shaking him awake or calling his name to get him up. She just stands there thinking aloud and Cloud wakes up. Then when he's awake, she addresses him with "hey Cloud".

Then that's even weirder! She was just standing there...watching Cloud's sleeping form in his room, that she crept into? And he wakes up and sees here there, and doesn't say anything at all? Is this a normal occurrence? Tifa just randomly pops up into Cloud's room at night to watch him sleep? Wtf?

Second, it says she couldn't hear it "even if she waited until the morning". Doesn't say she did for sure. "Even if" sounds like she didn't, it implies her doing something different than what was done. "Even if I had gone over there, it wouldn't have mattered". "I couldn't have helped even if I had tried to get there in time". "I couldn't have heard his answer even if I waited until the morning".

BTW Mako, once upon a time you wished for in-depth debates like this. What happened?

I think that line in Japanese was more definitive. I'll have to ask Danna for sure though. It was discussed in Faith awhile ago about how it kept her up at night waiting. But yeah.

I do, but I have to do something to have some fun with this, this seriously strikes me as rather bizarre.

 

[Isabella]

Yeah, it's the waiting part that's weird. Did she stand outside his door, lurking?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well it wouldn't be, not for me.

It actually happened one night when I was a kid, like five or six. I vividly remember being woken up in the night by my dad and being taken to my aunt's house because there was an emergency and he and my mom had to go somewhere and needed her to watch me. I was half-asleep, I didn't know what was going on enough to be scared or startled. I was confused of course, I was woken up in the middle of the night and shipped off to my aunt's, but I wasn't frightened.

And notice the circumstances of that. An emergency. You being a child.

This is not the same thing at all.

 

[Dashell]

When I first got my cat when I was like 13, one night she was sick and my mom came into my room, woke me up, and told me she and dad were taking her to the emergency vet.

This somehow proves Cloud and Tifa don't share a bed.

EDIT:
does anyone know where I can get the official CoT translation?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

It doesn't mention Tifa lurking outside his room in any fashion. It doesn't mention anything except her waiting until he's asleep. Maybe she just goes around doing barmaid-things, hears Cloud snoring as she walks by the hall and peaks inside.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The text doesn't say that. In fact, the text doesn't say anything about her walking into his room, leaving his room, or anything.

In fact, it takes adding *more* things the text doesn't say, to assume they're in separate bedrooms, than it does to assume they sleep together.

 

[Fighter]

It doesn't mention Tifa lurking outside his room in any fashion. It doesn't mention anything except her waiting until he's asleep. Maybe she just goes around doing barmaid-things, hears Cloud snoring as she walks by the hall and peaks inside.

And what walks in and starts talking to him out of the blue?

 

[Ryushikaze]

It doesn't mention Tifa lurking outside his room in any fashion. It doesn't mention anything except her waiting until he's asleep. Maybe she just goes around doing barmaid-things, hears Cloud snoring as she walks by the hall and peaks inside.

Or maybe she just shares a bed with him.

I can Occam all day and night.
No movement mentioned, no movement assumed.

 

[Raquelborn]

Seriously. People need to strip away the names of "Cloud" and "Tifa" when analyzing this shit, and look at this objectively. How in the heck does it make sense for a platonic roommate to just go into your room and stand over you and ask "do you love me?" Unless they have mental problems?

Drake nor I have argued Tifa is a platonic roommate.

There's something fundamentally obtuse about assuming that for some reason, Tifa would go violate Cloud's privacy, go into his room while he's sleeping late at night, wake him up in his room to ask him a question, and then stand there all night long waiting for an answer and watching him sleep til morning.

That seriously makes no sense. The text does not allude to Tifa being a creepy ass stalker roommate. I don't care how close you are to someone. You don't just wake them up in the middle of the night to ask them an intimate romantic question and then stay there, in their room while they sleep.

Cloud would not just have a perplexed look on his face if Tifa was there in his room standing over him. He'd have been startled. Unless it's a normal thing for people to go into his room at night and wake him up to ask him inane, emotional, couple-like questions.

Just to add on what Drake said to this, my mother, sister and one of my best friends have all done this to me at least once (asked me something emotional while I was asleep, waking me up, chatting to me about it, and then leaving me alone) and I don't see what's so idiotic or frightening about it.

Case of Tifa doesn't say that she waits there until morning either, it says that she couldn't hear his answer even if she waited until morning. As in, she didn't necessarily do so.

Raq, Drake, when I say UTTER LACK OF AMENITIES, I mean UTTER LACK. Not even a place to put clothes, just the cot, the desk, and a spare tire.

That's not a room you live in, that's a room you use from time to time.

You failed to mention the pictures of all his loved ones and the flowers. While it is common to have such personal things on a work desk it would have made more sense to place these at Cloud's actual bedside (if you believe Cloud sleeps in a bed with Tifa) as opposed to showing them on his office-only desk. Surely?

Also, in addition to the creepy factor of Tifa just walking in AFTER MAKING SURE HE WAS ASLEEP, I note AGAIN the complete lack of any movement described in the scene.

And I've noted there's no indication Cloud ever switched beds once Marlene got her own nor that Cloud uses the one in his office for work. These are both assumptions being made just to fit the idea that Cloud and Tifa are sleeping in the same bed. As you have highlighted, only one assumption is required for them not sharing a bed, Tifa got out of bed and walked into his room.

Also, making sure someone is asleep doesn't take all night. I could walk into my father's bedroom now and make sure he's asleep, it'd take a few seconds.