So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[DrakeClawfang]

The text doesn't say that. In fact, the text doesn't say anything about her walking into his room, leaving his room, or anything.

In fact, it takes adding *more* things the text doesn't say, to assume they're in separate bedrooms, than it does to assume they sleep together.

The text doesn't say anything they share a bedroom any more than it says they have separate bedrooms. That's right. I believe in another threat here, either you or Ryu say "just because you can't confirm something doesn't make the reverse true", or words to that effect. I'll dig up the quote.

EDIT - in the meantime, a question. If Cloud began sharing a bed with Tifa after Barret left, why would his loving her be ambiguous to her? I agree totally, if you share a bed with someone, something's going on there. So if Cloud is sharing a bed with Tifa, not only sharing but purposefully moving into a room with her after having one of his own, she's got major self-esteem issues if she's still uncertain about his feelings for her.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It doesn't mention Tifa lurking outside his room in any fashion. It doesn't mention anything except her waiting until he's asleep. Maybe she just goes around doing barmaid-things, hears Cloud snoring as she walks by the hall and peaks inside.

Yes, because that's far more logical than sharing a room, laying in a bed side by side. I can picture Tifa laying there, staring at the ceiling, troubled with doubt and concern over the space growing between them, I can see her saying "We'll be all right, won't we?" to Cloud, trying to reassure herself. Questioning their relationship. I can see all that. What I can't see is her walking by his room, tippy-toeing inside and waiting until he's asleep before speaking--MORE than that I can't picture Cloud being such a complete douche as to close his eyes and go back to sleep while she's standing right there, if it wasn't a common thing for her to be in his room.

That's...assholishly dismissive, and if we know ONE constant about Cloud is that Tifa is the most important person to him in the world. He wouldn't turn her out like that. However, if she's beside him in bed, and he knows she'll be there come morning, going back to sleep is just routine.

Logic; it's your friend.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Drake nor I have argued Tifa is a platonic roommate.

So if they're in a romantic living partnership, why would they not be sharing the same bed? By that logic, it'd make more sense for them to be sharing the same bed. Especially since what they're saying and talking about screams "new couple in crisis."

Just to add on what Drake said to this, my mother, sister and one of my best friends have all done this to me at least once (asked me something emotional while I was asleep, waking me up, chatting to me about it, and then leaving me alone) and I don't see what's so idiotic or frightening about it.

Again. They are relatives. That is not. The. Same. Thing. You either compare this to a platonic roommate, or a lover. Not family members. Context, please.

Case of Tifa doesn't say that she waits there until morning either, it says that she couldn't hear his answer even if she waited until morning. As in, she didn't necessarily do so.

I'm pretty sure the Japanese text makes it more apparent that she does stay there awake, hoping to hear an answer, because it troubles her.

You failed to mention the pictures of all his loved ones and the flowers. While it is common to have such personal things on a work desk it would have made more sense to place these at Cloud's actual bedside (if you believe Cloud sleeps in a bed with Tifa) as opposed to showing them on his desk. Surely?

So Cloud can't have multiple copies of the same picture? Buh, what?

And I've noted there's no indication Cloud ever switched beds once Marlene got her own nor that Cloud uses the one in his office for work. These are both assumptions being made just to fit the idea that Cloud and Tifa are sleeping in the same bed. As you have highlighted, only one assumption is required for them not sharing a bed, Tifa got out of bed and walked into his room.

Because it's not necessary if you take the dialogue Cloud and Tifa have together at night at face value. They clearly have to be in the same bed for it to make sense and not be something creepy and/or obtuse.

Also, making sure someone is asleep doesn't take all night. I could walk into my father's bedroom now and make sure he's asleep, it'd take a few seconds.

True, but that still means Tifa would have been in his room watching him sleep until he woke up, which is stalker-like and bizarre for a roommate, or romantic partner.

 

[Dashell]

Hey Drake good job on post 5000. But if she was going around doing barmaid things... that sorta contradicts the idea that she's waiting for Cloud to fall asleep... unless she was doing things, going by his room to see if he was asleep then going back to doing them. Still doesn't make a lot of sense though...

 

[Ryushikaze]

Just to add on what Drake said to this, my mother, sister and one of my best friends have all done this to me at least once (asked me something emotional while I was asleep, waking me up, chatting to me about it, and then leaving me alone) and I don't see what's so idiotic or frightening about it.

And you fell asleep again before they even moved?

You failed to mention the pictures of all his loved ones and the flowers. While it is common to have such personal things on a work desk it would have made more sense to place these at Cloud's actual bedside (if you believe Cloud sleeps in a bed with Tifa) as opposed to showing them on his desk. Surely?

No. My father has always adorned his office as opposed to his room- which he shared with my mother- with personal effects and photos of his travels.

And I've noted there's no indication Cloud ever switched beds once Marlene got her own nor that Cloud uses the one in his office for work. These are both assumptions being made just to fit the idea that Cloud and Tifa are sleeping in the same bed. As you have highlighted, only one assumption is required for them not sharing a bed, Tifa got out of bed and walked into his room.

There's no mention that Cloud and Tifa sleep apart before Marlene got her own either. You do recall that she slept with Tifa BEFORE the house was built, yes?

Also, making sure someone is asleep doesn't take all night. I could walk into my father's bedroom now and make sure he's asleep, it'd take a few seconds.

And would you then ask him a question before attempting to wake him up?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The text doesn't say anything they share a bedroom any more than it says they have separate bedrooms. That's right. I believe in another threat here, either you or Ryu say "just because you can't confirm something doesn't make the reverse true", or words to that effect. I'll dig up the quote.

Yes, that is true. But again. Occam's Razor. Given the context, and situation, you go by what makes the most sense.

Now you either assume Cloud and Tifa are romantic partners on one hand, or platonic roommates on the other.

Does it make sense for two romantic partners to be sleeping in two different rooms together if they're lovers? Does it make sense for said partner to just go into the other partner's room and ask them that after she's realized they're sleep and they wake up after noticing their presence?

Does it make sense for a platonic roommate to do that to another in the middle of the night?

 

[Makoeyes987]

EDIT - in the meantime, a question. If Cloud began sharing a bed with Tifa after Barret left, why would his loving her be ambiguous to her? I agree totally, if you share a bed with someone, something's going on there. So if Cloud is sharing a bed with Tifa, not only sharing but purposefully moving into a room with her after having one of his own, she's got major self-esteem issues if she's still uncertain about his feelings for her.

Women in couples have problems and issues sometimes. That's all there is to it. That's normal between new partners, especially with the issues Cloud and Tifa are going through.

 

[Isabella]

in the meantime, a question. If Cloud began sharing a bed with Tifa after Barret left, why would his loving her be ambiguous to her?

COUPLE IN CRISIS. Being in a relationship doesn't mean you never have any doubts ever, especially when one partner is growing distant.

Women in couples have problems and issues sometimes.

Careful there, spanky.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Yes, because that's far more logical than sharing a room, laying in a bed side by side. I can picture Tifa laying there, staring at the ceiling, troubled with doubt and concern over the space growing between them, I can see her saying "We'll be all right, won't we?" to Cloud, trying to reassure herself. Questioning their relationship. I can see all that. What I can't see is her walking by his room, tippy-toeing inside and waiting until he's asleep before speaking--MORE than that I can't picture Cloud being such a complete douche as to close his eyes and go back to sleep while she's standing right there, if it wasn't a common thing for her to be in his room.

And I can picture Tifa cleaning up the bar late at night, the events of the day tugging at her mind. She hears Cloud snoring as she walks to check on Marlene, and quietly opens his door to look at him. She whispers "we'll be alright, won't we?", and Cloud keeps snoring. Irrationally stressed by the lack of an answer, she says a bit louder "do you love me?" This wakes Cloud up, and Tifa, stunned, tries to cover her tracks by changing the subject...

See, I can make stories too.

Logic; it's your friend.

Yes it is, we're good pals. I first met Logic in 1998, it was a beautiful summer's day. I walked into the supermarket....

EDIT - In response to the above too, alright, Tifa has concerns any relationship would have. Again then, shared bedroom or not, why would she purposefully wait for Cloud to fall asleep, then wake him up again to confront him with her concerns? Why not ask him while he's awake? Could it be perhaps, she was thinking aloud and didn't mean to wake him?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

EDIT - in the meantime, a question. If Cloud began sharing a bed with Tifa after Barret left, why would his loving her be ambiguous to her? I agree totally, if you share a bed with someone, something's going on there. So if Cloud is sharing a bed with Tifa, not only sharing but purposefully moving into a room with her after having one of his own, she's got major self-esteem issues if she's still uncertain about his feelings for her.

They are having problems. His love isn't ambiguous--it's strained. Ever had a relationship? Because in relationships, especially those spanning years--doubts come into play. Self-esteem isn't the issue. That's a really childish thing to say, actually. "Ooooh, she doesn't think he loves her, wow, she must feel really shitty about herself..." Uhm, no.

Robin and I have been together for 11 years and I can guaran-fuckin-tee that I have had moments of serious doubt about whether he loved me, and oh, yeah, we were sharing a bed while I had those doubts. Funny how emotions work, huh. O.o

 

[Dashell]

Rob and I, three years... and we had some .... conversations this week that I guess to a Clerith would amount to, we should NOT be together. But oh damn, we worked it out ... wait why is that bad?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Could it be perhaps, she was thinking aloud and didn't mean to wake him?

YES! Yes it could. Which makes waaaaaaaaaaaaay more sense if she's in the bed with him. O.o

And I didn't make that story, Drake. SE did. CoT; remember.

 

[Isabella]

Could it be perhaps, she was thinking aloud and didn't mean to wake him?

I completely agree with this. Tifa didn't mean to wake him. She's afraid to ask him while he's awake because she's afraid of the answer, in the same way she was afraid to express her concerns in FF7.

But that's not what we were discussing, was it? It was whether she was already in the room, or creeped in after waiting for him to be asleep.

 

[Makoeyes987]

EDIT - In response to the above too, alright, Tifa has concerns any relationship would have. Again then, shared bedroom or not, why would she purposefully wait for Cloud to fall asleep, then wake him up again to confront him with her concerns? Why not ask him while he's awake? Could it be perhaps, she was thinking aloud and didn't mean to wake him?

Given the fact she purposefully changes the question when Cloud hears it, it's obvious fear and insecurity. She wants to ask him straight out to finally put her doubts to rest, but her insecurity makes her want to wait for when there's a good chance he won't hear it and thus if there's a hurtful answer, she won't hear it.

She's insecure. She's never been in a relationship like this before. She has a lot on her mind thanks to everything they've been through in FFVII and the past and she's struggling with the future of their relationship and the past they both bring to it. That's why she did that.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I completely agree with this. Tifa didn't mean to wake him. She's afraid to ask him while he's awake because she's afraid of the answer, in the same way she was afraid to express her concerns in FF7.

But that's not what we were discussing, was it? It was whether she was already in the room, or creeped in after waiting for him to be asleep.

I thought we were discussing the scene as a whole, really. After re-reading it, I'm not sure if:

A - Tifa actively meant to wake him up.
B - She stayed there watching him when he went back to sleep.

Given the fact she purposefully changes the question when Cloud hears it, it's obvious fear and insecurity. She wants to ask him straight out to finally put her doubts to rest, but her insecurity makes her want to wait for when there's a good chance he won't hear it and thus if there's a hurtful answer, she won't hear it.

I actually asked my dad this while getting my supper like, five minutes ago. I asked "if Mom had a question for you, does it make sense for her to wait for you to fall asleep before waking you up and asking?". His response, half-joking but only half was, "yeah she'd do that, I'd be half-asleep and more likely to agree with her".

 

[Raquelborn]

So if they're in a romantic living partnership, why would they not be sharing the same bed? By that logic, it'd make more sense for them to be sharing the same bed. Especially since what they're saying and talking about screams "new couple in crisis."

That's an all well and good assumption to go by when two people are in a romantic relationship but Cloud does have his own bed which we know he must have been sleeping in before Marlene got her own and we have to make two assumptions in order for it to follow that Cloud is now in Tifa's bed which just feels excessive. KISS.

Again. They are relatives. That is not. The. Same. Thing. You either compare this to a platonic roommate, or a lover. Not family members. Context, please.

Except one was a friend and by what you appear to be arguing here, when a lover asks you an emotional question in your sleep that's even more of a reason to be creeped out?

I'm pretty sure the Japanese text makes it more apparent that she does stay there awake, hoping to hear an answer, because it troubles her.

In which case it'd be nice if someone who can read Japanese could explain how the literal translation sounds. Or has this been done before?

So Cloud can't have multiple copies of the same picture? Buh, what?

Another assumption if you want to go down that route. Why bother? Occam's razor.

Because it's not necessary if you take the dialogue Cloud and Tifa have together at night at face value. They clearly have to be in the same bed for it to make sense and not be something creepy and/or obtuse.

Why exactly?

True, but that still means Tifa would have been in his room watching him sleep until he woke up, which is stalker-like and bizarre for a roommate, or romantic partner.

Since when though? It says even if she waited until morning so she didn't necessairly do so. For example, I wouldn't of gone to work today, even if I had felt well enough. You can tell by how 'even' is used in that sentence that I didn't go to work today and it's the same for the line in CoT.

 

[Isabella]

I really don't think she meant to wake him up. Otherwise, like Drake said, why purposely wait until he's asleep? That just seems rude.

"Instead of asking him while he's still awake, I'll wait till he's asleep and wake him! bwuahahahaha!"

 

[DrakeClawfang]

"Instead of asking him while he's still awake, I'll wait till he's asleep and wake him! bwuahahahaha!"

Lol. Tifa is evil alright.

There's many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's a bitch, she's a lover, she's a child, she's a mother....oh wait, that's Alanis Morissette.

Just FYI, I thought of that during the "lover or mother" debate a couple days ago and have been waiting to use it again! :p

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The pictures in the office used as evidence as a bedroom is bugging me. They are on his desk, right? Because in my bedroom I don't have family photos. They are in my office, on my desk, above on the walls and in my living room...

In fact, I know of very few people that have bedside photos. That could just be me, but that's the case, so I don't consider that to be the norm or "proof" of anything, other than Cloud has a family photo. **shrug**

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Lol. Tifa is evil alright.

There's many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's a bitch, she's a lover, she's a child, she's a mothe....oh wait, that's Alanis Morissette.

Merideth Brooks.

Or Alanis, I guess, but Brooks song is much more Tifa-esque.

 

[Dashell]

Well, this is Tifa, she did selfishly think Aerith brought Denzel to her, want to laugh at Cloud when he didn't know what certain vegetables were and she doesn't understand him. Or maybe she's just trying to get back at him for making her cry under the Highwind.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

It just occurred to me that this is the first actual *debating*, not discussing, going on here in a while. WTF happened guys?

 

[Kikyou]

It just occurred to me that this is the first actual *debating*, not discussing, going on here in a while. WTF happened guys?

I blame SoS for being the catalyst. All these pages sprouted up after he responded to CxA.

 

[Raquelborn]

And you fell asleep again before they even moved?

I have done before apparently.

No. My father has always adorned his office as opposed to his room- which he shared with my mother- with personal effects and photos of his travels.

Fair enough but is your father as monotonous as Cloud? The office as his bedroom seems quite fitting considering his personality. All things about Cloud seem quite dry so why not a quite a bare room? I'd say by my own standards, since you're putting Cloud's room up to your's, that Cloud's office is too scruffy to be an average office, let alone anything anyone would sit in for too long.

There's no mention that Cloud and Tifa sleep apart before Marlene got her own either. You do recall that she slept with Tifa BEFORE the house was built, yes?

Not exactly. Doesn't Marlene sleep with Tifa until Barrett leaves? And that would be after 7th Heaven was built. I'm also working on the logic that if Marlene is in Tifa's bed, there's no room for Cloud.

And would you then ask him a question before attempting to wake him up?

I have no reason to right now. But I have done this to my mother quite a few times. If I want something then I'll come to her bedside and kind of wait, maybe say something and then wait for her to wake up. If she doesn't, I get mad I go back to bed.

EDIT:

I completely agree with this. Tifa didn't mean to wake him. She's afraid to ask him while he's awake because she's afraid of the answer, in the same way she was afraid to express her concerns in FF7.

But that's not what we were discussing, was it? It was whether she was already in the room, or creeped in after waiting for him to be asleep.

I agree.

And yes but no. Couldn't she have creeped in, then checked if he was asleep and then said something?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I blame SoS for being the catalyst. All these pages sprouted up after he responded to CxA.