So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Kikyou]

I've never had any sort of relationship with any woman, serious or friendship or otherwise, with anyone outside of family members, and don't expect to have one. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm a lonely bachelor so I guess I'm just a fucking idiot and obviously have no clue about anything.

I've got a room. It has a bed, a lamp, a desk for my PC, a dresser and a TV. No pictures, no posters, no books lying around. When we moved a month ago, I had everything in my room set-up within a few hours. It's not much, but it's my room, a bedroom, it's not my office. There's not much in it but it's where I live and sleep. Considering in the later parts of CoT, Cloud is on the road a lot, it makes sense he wouldn't have much either.

You sure you're understating your experiences with females? That is a highly unusual bedroom description and illogical if we're going by your statement. So... where's the porn?

 

[TheMadHatter]

Well, debating where Cloud sleeps is boring. Don't we have something else to debate about?

So... where's the porn?

Yeah, every man has to have porn.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I've never had any sort of relationship with any woman, serious or friendship or otherwise, with anyone outside of family members, and don't expect to have one.

I have absolutely no beef with you, man, but given this, it seriously wounds a standing in a discussion about relationships.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

So... where's the porn?

Where all modern pervs keep their porn, on my PC. Or have you forgotten how often I speak of lemon fanfics?

Hell, I can photograph my room if you like. There's the bed, lamp, dresser, desk, TV, PC, oh, and I forgot I've got a couple game systems and a VCR. But the rest is true, no books, posters, pictures, etc. I keep some DVDs and games, and a couple manga in the desk, but really that's it.

 

[Kikyou]

Where all modern pervs keep their porn, on my PC. Or have you forgotten how often I speak of lemon fanfics?

Hell, I can photograph my room if you like. There's the bed, lamp, dresser, desk, TV, PC, oh, and I forgot I've got a couple game systems and a VCR. But the rest is true, no books, posters, pictures, etc. I keep some DVDs and games, and a couple manga in the desk, but really that's it.

Actually, I don't think we've spoken much 'til now, bro. XD; OH YEAH, YOU GOT FIC RECS? Hell, anyone can jump in and give me some.

lol, no I'm good. The only pic I want to see right now is the one of Mako's breasts. But thanks for the time to write it all out man.

So about the family unit. How would parentage between Marlene between her and Cloud work? Doesn't she still consider Barret her dad?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Actually, I don't think we've spoken much 'til now, bro. XD; OH YEAH, YOU GOT FIC RECS? Hell, anyone can jump in and give me some.

lol, no I'm good. The only pic I want to see right now is the one of Mako's breasts. But thanks for the time to write it all out man.

I've a video of him doing a strip tease if you want. Take a look

As for fic refs, pm me with what you like, I probably know of one or two. I mostly read Clerith though, so don't ask for Cloti. :p

 

[Isabella]

So about the family unit. How would parentage between Marlene between her and Cloud work? Doesn't she still consider Barret her dad?

Of course. I can't see her ever calling Tifa and Cloud "mom and dad." They're her caretakers.

 

[Vendel]

To be honest I think this is quite a minor topic as sharing a bed isn't a standard for two people to be in a relationship,

*screeches to a halt*
Pardon?

That is all.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Of course. I can't see her ever calling Tifa and Cloud "mom and dad." They're her caretakers.

Uncle and Auntie. Natch.
Or Auntie and Auntie, maybe.
Then again, Aerith was big sis, so maybe she views them as big sis and big bro in law...

*screeches to a halt*
Pardon?

That is all.

While oddly worded, she is correct. Whether or not two people are sleeping together is not the metric of whether or not they are in a relationship.
The intimacy of that relationship, quite possibly, but not the relationship itself.

 

[Vendel]

While oddly worded, she is correct. Whether or not two people are sleeping together is not the metric of whether or not they are in a relationship.
The intimacy of that relationship, quite possibly, but not the relationship itself.

For two people in Cloud and Tifa's situation, sharing a bed is the standard.

 

[Ryushikaze]

For two people in Cloud and Tifa's situation, sharing a bed is the standard.

Yes, but not 'a' standard.
It's the norm, but not something by which you judge whether or not they are a couple.

 

[Tennyo]

For two people in Cloud and Tifa's situation, sharing a bed is the standard.

Um... well maybe from a narrative point of view if you really want to assume that but... as I stated earlier I met a couple a few months ago that had been living in the same house with a few other people for over a year and they still have separate bedrooms. I mean yeah sometimes they switch off and sleep in one or the other and sometimes they sleep apart. They are in a relationship just just not to the point where they want to give up their own private space.

 

[aniron]

It's just a bit weird, if you think about it... "Cloud and Tifa belong together (in 7th Heaven)".
Tifa must have a comfortable room herself and Cloud is sleeping on the cot in his office?... Doesn't make much sense to me.
7th Heaven is his home, so he must have a decent room in there.

 

[Roger]

You'd think that Tifa would clean up the desk in the long time since he left and cleaned up his office a little but she couldn't be assed to that either.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I've never had any sort of relationship with any woman, serious or friendship or otherwise, with anyone outside of family members, and don't expect to have one. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm a lonely bachelor so I guess I'm just a fucking idiot and obviously have no clue about anything.

I didn't intentionally bring up a sore subject, you have my apologies. Sincerely.

Your lack of serious relationships outside of the family unit does, however, color how you may view relationships and I'm not saying you have no clue about anything, but you talking about relationship dynamics when never having been in one does teeter your standing.

Where does he get permission from her? I don't recall anything in CoT about Cloud asking permission to keep Fenrir and go on deliveries. The only thing discussed with her beforehand is the "food and drink for life" deal, and since she runs the bar of course he has to get permission to do that.

I wasn't meaning Fenrir only. And permission may be too strong of a word. Couples talk, and agree on bigger decisions. It's the way it works. Conversation, and yes, hints of permission. If the decision isn't mutual, things get ugly quick. From CoT:

“Why are you looking at me like that?

“Well… I’m sorry I kept quiet about it.”

“About what?”

“Doing things without consulting.”

This is about his "deliveries". That line implies they share those conversations, and mutual agreements regarding the home. It's not two people living in the same place, it's a couple.

I was being sarcastic too, good to see you're as sharp as I am.

I kinda figured you were. I got the snide sarcasm from your posts just fine. I was--probably not in the best way--commenting on you using what was clearly sarcasm in your rebuttal. Sarcasm through debates is commonplace, but actually referring to it as your rebuttal weakens your argument. "What does Cloud have again, oh, right, porno mags and stuffed wolf plushies..." and while I know you were pointing out that you don't think Cloud has many personal items, tossing in my clearly sarcastic point to try and counter my legitimate point, again, teeters your stance.

Let's call it "the rectangular green lump that Cloud may or may not sleep on". TREGL for short.

No, let's call it a cot. It is a cot.

I've got a room. It has a bed, a lamp, a desk for my PC, a dresser and a TV. No pictures, no posters, no books lying around. When we moved a month ago, I had everything in my room set-up within a few hours. It's not much, but it's my room, a bedroom, it's not my office. There's not much in it but it's where I live and sleep. Considering in the later parts of CoT, Cloud is on the road a lot, it makes sense he wouldn't have much either.

Your bedroom would be an exception to the "standard" bedroom, I'd say, and you are basing your view of Cloud's office on that minimalist set up you yourself have. But even still, in your rather bare bones room, you have a dresser for your clothes, yes?

And Cloud's office is clearly an office. It has the line for Strife Delivery Service in there. Obviously that's the business line, because the phone in the bar isn't ringing--the one we see Denzel on later--and it doesn't go to Cloudy's cell phone. Also, Tifa just walks in. As do the kids later, and I didn't spot a "door" to that room. Maybe there is one and I missed it. I'll re-watch ACC at some point, and try an pay attention to that. A bedroom would, logically, have a door for privacy as well as at least one place to put his clothes. This room apparently has neither.

And actually, the latter parts of CoT state that Cloud is home more and more, so I'm confused to where you are coming up with that. Tifa makes note that since the arrival of Denzel they are more of a family. Cloud is home more, their silly conversations are back, and that he makes time for the kids... So again...bwhut?

But we're shown the TREGL which implies he sleeps there. I doubt the filmmakers put the TREGL there just so we can assume Cloud rarely uses it. The TREGL is in the room for a reason. If they had wanted to give the impression Cloud slept somewhere else, they could have pointedly *not* included the TREGL, or shown Tifa's room with a two-person bed, or made mention of Cloud sharing a bed with her.

Or maybe, they didn't think having a cot in the office was going to open up a debate on where Cloud sleeps considering the relationship already established between Cloud and Tifa. The cot is in the room for a reason. But that reason isn't necessarily that Cloud uses it as his bed. You can again refer to the hundred other logical reasons already listed in this thread.

And CoT does make mention of Cloud sharing a bed with her...

Cloud is in a relationship with Tifa. Therefore he shares a bed with her. Therefore the room with the TREGL is his office and not his room.

Layer 1 is sturdy, layer 2 is kinda shaky, layer 3 is ready to come down any second now.

Cloud is in a co-habitual, family relationship with Tifa. Logic would assume they share a bed together; yes. A bare cot without so much as a pillowcase in an office=bedroom? Not so much.

Let me try my own construction project.

Construct away...

Cloud's room contains the TREGL. Therefore he likely sleeps there.

My office has a pullout couch...therefore I likely sleep there? Uhm...no.

What evidence, aside from some bar tables and random alcohol bottles do we have to indicate Seventh Heaven is in fact, a bar?

Bad example is bad. We are TOLD through the narrative and throughout compilation that Seventh is a bar. We are never told Cloud's office is a bedroom. We are told it's his office. From CoT:

During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office. There were many slips that laid scattered about unsorted.

Sounds familiar, eh? Like, oh, the room we see in ACC?

By your logic, if you removed the bed from my bedroom, it becomes my office.

Not really, you have a dresser and a TV, giving the indication that the room is used for something other than an office. However, I've never seen your room, and don't know it it's a deliberate contrast to the rest of your home as Cloud's OFFICE is to the rest of Seventh.

Again, I'm really not sure why people are resistant to this room being his office and not his bedroom...?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You'd think that Tifa would clean up the desk in the long time since he left and cleaned up his office a little but she couldn't be assed to that either.

He's not been gone a 'long time'. A couple weeks at most, from what I gather...

But yeah, she was seriously slacking in the maid department. Someone should spank her.

 

[Splintered]

Again, I'm really not sure why people are resistant to this room being his office and not his bedroom...?

Not necessarily resistant as much as it makes sense to us. Or me anyway. Or I see it as a deliberate prop meant to show something about Cloud's life. The entire room is, right down to the lighting and grey color scheme. >___> I would not cry buckets of tears if they were sleeping together.

Someone should spank her.

Hey now, that's a suggestion.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Not necessarily resistant as much as it makes sense to us. Or me anyway. Or I see it as a deliberate prop meant to show something about Cloud's life. The entire room is, right down to the lighting and grey color scheme. >___> I would not cry buckets of tears if they were sleeping together.

It's not something that can be speculated. I mean: "Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office" Pretty much sums up the debate, no?

Hey now, that's a suggestion.

And a damn good one.

 

[Raquelborn]

imo, it seems a bit odd that Cloud would sleep on such a bare-bones bed when Tifa seemed fine with decking out Marlene and Denzel's beds. And you'd think since she's there so much she'd at least make his bed look less... I dunno, crappy. Sure, Cloud'd be fine with his bed looking so uncomfortable, but I think Tifa would want to make it look prettier. Unless he was specifically like "Don' touch me bed beetch! >: O" at Tifa or something.

While I would agree Tifa would be the type to make his bedroom as nice as possible, why didn't she also do that to his office? (If that's solely what it is.) In fact, we know she cleared it out in CoT but despite this the room still looks pretty grim. Maybe Tifa feels she shouldn't interfere with Cloud's style of living, just like my mother let's me, my sister and my father generally get on with how we live in our own rooms. Even if she tidies up from time to time.

We're also not shown Cloud sleeping in that office. **shrug**

Neither are we shown Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed, same bedroom (the children's room scene doesn't count as they aren't their own bed(s)), nor that there's even a bed big enough for two fully-grown people in 7th Heaven. It's also never been indicated that Cloud moved into Tifa's bed when Marlene moved out, the bed in the office is used for guests, nor as a part-time bed for Cloud when he gets home late from deliveries.

*Double shrug*

A house of cards is built on false presumptions or non-commonalities. To say a man living with a woman, one of whom he's been stated to have romantic interest with and made romantic declarations to, is not sharing a room with her after 2 years of co-habitation and considering themselves family--that's a theory built from jacks and spades.

I wouldn't say that, I'd say it's more applying your own standards regarding relationships upon others' which I have, in the past, learnt the hard way not to do because standards can vary surprisingly between different people. Maybe Nojima has different standards to you and maybe typical sleeping arrangements for unmarried couples are just different in Japan.

Cloud and Tifa are also their own persons. Why should they adhere to the average couple's sleeping arrangements when they aren't typical people and neither has their relationship developed in a typical way?

But I could ask of you the same thing:What evidence, aside from a bare cot in an office littered with other random items do we have to indicate that room is in fact a "bedroom"?

I was going by how we can make less assumptions in order for it to be a bedroom than if it isn't one. But I'm not saying them sharing a bed is out of the question either. I'm not bothered if it's either way to be honest.

I'm amazed that no one seems to have commented on my repeated 'My dad's office was also the guest bedroom for many a year', because this is exactly what I've been getting at when I bring it up.

Why think it's a guest room though? Considering how they've (Tifa basically) decorated the children's bedroom you'd think they'd make the guest room a lot more inviting. You said yourself it lacks amenities so why on earth would they offer that to guests?

Your lack of serious relationships outside of the family unit does, however, color how you may view relationships and I'm not saying you have no clue about anything, but you talking about relationship dynamics when never having been in one does teeter your standing.

One does not need to have been in a relationship in order to understand their dynamics and more to the point, understand that two people can be in a relationship and not share a bed.

No, let's call it a cot. It is a cot.

A cot to me is what babies and very young children sleep in. Therefore I'm going to call it a bed. Peace?

Your bedroom would be an exception to the "standard" bedroom, I'd say, and you are basing your view of Cloud's office on that minimalist set up you yourself have. But even still, in your rather bare bones room, you have a dresser for your clothes, yes?

Don't forget that Cloud was a soldier, so he was living in minimalistic sleeping quarters for at least some part of his life and so he probably cares less about having a homey bedroom than most of us do.

I didn't spot a "door" to that room. Maybe there is one and I missed it.

That's a good point. Although, offices tend to have doors as well, otherwise, in this case, if it was noisey in the bar then Cloud wouldn't be able to take/make phonecalls or concentrate on paperwork. Cloud also isn't home in AC/C and as you've pointed out, it's where the phone is so it's not surprising that even if it's his bedroom, during the film the door is wide open.

And CoT does make mention of Cloud sharing a bed with her...

...? Just for the sake of newbies reading this thread.

During their holiday, Tifa and Marlene were cleaning the room that was now Cloud’s office. There were many slips that laid scattered about unsorted.

Good quote. That makes it sound like it was previously something else (a bedroom perhaps?) but later changed to be an office. Is 'now' in the Japanese?

However, I've never seen your room, and don't know it it's a deliberate contrast to the rest of your home as Cloud's OFFICE is to the rest of Seventh.

The bar looks pretty grim too. There's little light when we see Tifa washing up and even the pictures on the walls are even lacking in colour. The only room in the house we see that looks at all warming is the children's bedroom. So if anything, the children's bedroom is the one that contrasts to the rest of the house.

Again, I'm really not sure why people are resistant to this room
being his office and not his bedroom...?

Well since it is his office as said in CoT we, or at least I am not disputing that. It's more about where Cloud sleeps. I'm not bothered either way though. This is just a nice change from forum dramas.

 

[Roger]

While I would agree Tifa would be the type to make his bedroom as nice as possible, why didn't she also do that to his office? (If that's solely what it is.) In fact, we know she cleared it out in CoT but despite this the room still looks pretty grim. Maybe Tifa feels she shouldn't interfere with Cloud's style of living, just like my mother let's me, my sister and my father generally get on with how we live in our own rooms. Even if she tidies up from time to time.

It's hardly his room alone. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are probably in and out of there to answer the phone and update his request board. Even if he wasn't avoiding the place, they'd still be in there more then him.

Neither are we shown Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed, same bedroom (the children's room scene doesn't count as they aren't their own bed(s)), nor that there's even a bed big enough for two fully-grown people in 7th Heaven.

There is a bed in the 7th Heaven that can sustain Barret's weight so, yes we do.

The bar looks pretty grim too. There's little light when we see Tifa washing up and even the pictures on the walls are even lacking in colour. The only room in the house we see that looks at all warming is the children's bedroom. So if anything, the children's bedroom is the one that contrasts to the rest of the house.

Watch the end of DoC. It looks a lot more hospitable there IMO.

 

[Raquelborn]

It's hardly his room alone. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are probably in and out of there to answer the phone and update his request board. Even if he wasn't avoiding the place, they'd still be in there more then him.

But it is 'his room' or at the least, if you want to dispute about how it was translated from the Japanese, 'his office'. Either way it is his own space whether you think he sleeps in there or not.

There is a bed in the 7th Heaven that can sustain Barret's weight so, yes we do.

Barrett's a beefcake but I don't know if we should say he's as big as two people.

Watch the end of DoC. It looks a lot more hospitable there IMO.

Since I happen to be one of the people to have uploaded Dirge of Cerberus scenes to youtube, here's a screenshot:

Spoiler

And a link to the video (@ 9:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLfmgEwwoEE

It looks lighter because there's sunshine coming in through the window (sympathetic background for Shelke anyone?) but the decor is still lacking colour. My point still stands that the children's bedroom is the one that's more fitting of 'being in contrast to the rest of 7th Heaven'. I was just saying really.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Neither are we shown Cloud and Tifa sleeping in the same bed, same bedroom (the children's room scene doesn't count as they aren't their own bed(s)), nor that there's even a bed big enough for two fully-grown people in 7th Heaven. It's also never been indicated that Cloud moved into Tifa's bed when Marlene moved out, the bed in the office is used for guests, nor as a part-time bed for Cloud when he gets home late from deliveries.

*Double shrug*

So, let's just assume they share the cot.
Okay, now that that amusing image is through, let us not assume it.

I wouldn't say that, I'd say it's more applying your own standards regarding relationships upon others' which I have, in the past, learnt the hard way not to do because standards can vary surprisingly between different people. Maybe Nojima has different standards to you and maybe typical sleeping arrangements for unmarried couples are just different in Japan.

Not really. Especially not with more western homes.

Cloud and Tifa are also their own persons. Why should they adhere to the average couple's sleeping arrangements when they aren't typical people and neither has their relationship developed in a typical way?

Well, there are the general commonalities to couples in fiction, the basic 'defaults' that people use as indicators in stories.

I was going by how we can make less assumptions in order for it to be a bedroom than if it isn't one. But I'm not saying them sharing a bed is out of the question either. I'm not bothered if it's either way to be honest.

Yeah, but that still fails the Occam test, because it raises more questions about lack of actual ameneties than does assuming his actual room is elsewhere.

Why think it's a guest room though? Considering how they've (Tifa basically) decorated the children's bedroom you'd think they'd make the guest room a lot more inviting. You said yourself it lacks amenities so why on earth would they offer that to guests?

I'm not saying it is a guest room. I think it's a converted storeroom, really. I just wanted to press upon the idea that a bed in an office does not a bedroom make.
Though for a time, the guest bedroom we had didn't have a dresser, though that changed when my mom decided to redecorate my room.

A cot to me is what babies and very young children sleep in. Therefore I'm going to call it a bed. Peace?

A cot to me is a very barebones piece of furniture used for sleeping, often used in lieu of an actual mattress or more comfortable solution.
Both are valid definitions.

Don't forget that Cloud was a soldier, so he was living in minimalistic sleeping quarters for at least some part of his life and so he probably cares less about having a homey bedroom than most of us do.

Soldiers typically enjoy creature comforts at home just a bit more than the rest of us, to contrast the minimalism of the barracks and such.

That's a good point. Although, offices tend to have doors as well, otherwise, in this case, if it was noisey in the bar then Cloud wouldn't be able to take/make phonecalls or concentrate on paperwork. Cloud also isn't home in AC/C and as you've pointed out, it's where the phone is so it's not surprising that even if it's his bedroom, during the film the door is wide open.

Hence why I think it's a converted storeroom, and Cloud picked it so he wouldn't inconvenience anyone.

Good quote. That makes it sound like it was previously something else (a bedroom perhaps?) but later changed to be an office. Is 'now' in the Japanese?

IIRC, it is. But what it was previously was probably a storeroom. It's still partly that.

The bar looks pretty grim too. There's little light when we see Tifa washing up and even the pictures on the walls are even lacking in colour.

That's due to brownouts, actually. The house is saving on electricity. As mentioned, in DoC, it looks a lot friendlier despite no real differences in the bar- save perhaps the booths by the window.

The only room in the house we see that looks at all warming is the children's bedroom. So if anything, the children's bedroom is the one that contrasts to the rest of the house.

Well, we only see three rooms and one stairwell, and at least half the house's volume is unseen.

Well since it is his office as said in CoT we, or at least I am not disputing that. It's more about where Cloud sleeps. I'm not bothered either way though. This is just a nice change from forum dramas.

I think he sleeps in both his office and with Tifa. That, to me, makes the most sense. The cot is there for sleeping in when he gets in exceptionally late or has been exiled.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, I just thought I'd share this bit of news, but if you check out the front page, you'll notice that the LT analysis portion of SoS's faq was edited earlier today. Due to the feedback and critiques he got regarding it, he decided it was necessary amend and edit a few things, so you can check out some of the changes he made to it now.

I think if anything else, it's more thorough in terms of its scope and analysis.

 

[Dashell]

Granted, he isn’t depicted interacting with Tifa anywhere in this “cutscene.”

That's not true, at about 1 minute or so in the bottom left hand corner you see him talking to Tifa... Ill try and get a screenshot if you want.

Also I took Cloud running from Tifa as just him running from his light, period. Because he fell into the darkness, thus he is chasing the darkness and running from his light. It seemed straight forward to me.

ALso:

Cloud: ACHO!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Nice additions. It might be worth pointing out that other nonromantic and even cross game and franchise pairs (Slime and Boco is the ISS OTP) are seen walking together during this OP, and Cloud does a 'fist bump' with the hero of IIRC, DQ6.

I'd also stress the 'IF' for KH as commentary a bit more. Just so people can't possibly miss it.