So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Isabella]

Nothing rabid about seeing the plot for where it goes.

I don't know. I saw Cloud defeat Sephiroth at the end. That clearly makes me a rabid ... something or other

I don't get all the melodrama, to be quite honest. If someone refuses to form an opinion (or, in some cases, to express an opinion) on a story for fear of losing friendships, then what kind of friendship was it? I personally don't discuss FF with anyone outside of this forum. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who's even played it.

 

[TheMadHatter]

Do you consider AC/C canon? And why or why not?

A little. I dunno.

The fact you think each side has equal facts demolishes any claims to neutrality you claim to have. Especially when you say things like the novels aren't canon, when they're cited numerous in the Ultimanias and creator commentary of the Compilation. One of the most damning comments on the LT was from Nojima regarding Case of Tifa.

Are you going silly on me?
The fact that I think both sides have a equal chance is considered being a Neutral. When and if I get all the information - like I've been saying all my time here - I will compute which side is canon or not.
Although, my opinion won't matter much, but I'll add to the side I pick.

What? No offense, but I have no idea what fandom you're apart of. Way to go at being melodramatic over the LT.

I'm apart of FFVII, but I'm a neutral to the couples. I want all the information given to me by Clotis and Cloriths so I can analyze it myself and go "hm...this side makes more sense" or "this side has a lot more facts to it"

Then you seriously don't know what you're talking about. The novels are referenced numerous times in the movie. The creators WROTE the novels. What the heck makes you think they aren't canon?

I said I consider the first game canon and the rest aren't, but I know for a fact that since SE made them write it, it is canon. That last part was really just my whole hearted opinion on that subject. I just hate that they are milking FFVII. It annoys me.

Equal facts and proof, huh?

Dur...that was suppose to be " Shippers and people who honestly believe a couple means enough for them to go and debate, means little" Oddly, I worded that wrong. I have no idea why I posted it in that form

Is it frosted glass, or completely transparent? Does it also have an air vent on it?
Does your room also lack a closet, dresser, or anything someone using a room as a room for nigh on two years would need?

Its a window window. Like the kind you peer out of on a beautiful day. The door is metal-ish. The knob is gold, the room has weird metal walls with bolts on them and bed much like Cloud's, only its yellow and blue. No air vent. It has a small closet that has some shelves on it for books and files, a small dresser and another window behind the desk area where I do my work. Not my actual outdoors work, but my work-work.

My apartment has three rooms; bathroom, kitchen and bedroom, where I am talking about now.

I don't get all the melodrama, to be quite honest. If someone refuses to form an opinion (or, in some cases, to express an opinion) on a story for fear of losing friendships, then what kind of friendship was it? I personally don't discuss FF with anyone outside of this forum. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who's even played it.

That's just how people work. Although, I have no fear of it. I have friends that are Neutral, Clorith, CLoti and Clack. I don't mind, but a lot of crazy ass people do.

I'm sorry if this didn't make sense, I didn't get sleep last night. I was going crazy, literally.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

A little. I dunno.

It is. No debate. Your opinion on it means nothing as far as validation goes.

The fact that I think both sides have a equal chance is considered being a Neutral.

No, the fact that you think both have equal chance makes you insane. Or at the very least, very uninformed.

When and if I get all the information - like I've been saying all my time here - I will compute which side is canon or not.

You have access to ALL THE INFORMATION, but said yourself you are too lazy to read it want to be spoonfed the answers... by shippers? Bwuah? That just defies...reason...

I'm apart of FFVII, but I'm a neutral to the couples.

Then the question becomes why be in a thread that's very premise is based on having an opinion about the couples? Makes no sense.

I want all the information given to me by Clotis and Cloriths so I can analyze it myself and go "hm...this side makes more sense" or "this side has a lot more facts to it"

Yes, shippers giving you information will surely lead to an unbiased opinion. Here's an idea--and it's a stretch--try reading the material, watching the movies and oh, I don't know, making up your own mind... Heh?

I said I consider the first game canon and the rest aren't, but I know for a fact that since SE made them write it, it is canon.

Way to talk out both sides of your mouth. You're young enough that's probably going to happen a lot, I think.

 

[TheMadHatter]

How to respond?
Hm...

A neutral is a person who supports both sides, which I do! I wanna be able to pick a side instead of having - in this case - Clotis trying to shove it down my throat. I tried this with a group of Cloriths and they tried to make me pick a side without showing me facts, or, avoiding showing me facts. Which, has been happening here

In order for me to fairly pick, I need both sides.

But, you are probably right about one part of your post, FHS.
I should drop my three jobs and read them
{My free time doesn't include the time to read long ass novels for right now. Its easier getting small tid-bits of information at a time from you guys and later, if I either get fired or I have a holiday, I'll read some of them. Like right now, I have to head out and take my spot at the security booth outside.} If I have some time, I'll log in and put some more posts in.

Later.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

How to respond?
Hm...

A neutral is a person who supports both sides, which I do! I wanna be able to pick a side instead of having - in this case - Clotis trying to shove it down my throat. I tried this with a group of Cloriths and they tried to make me pick a side without showing me facts, or, avoiding showing me facts. Which, has been happening here

In order for me to fairly pick, I need both sides.

Even if you do read and examine everything, you don't have to like one couple or not like another.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

How to respond?
Hm...

A neutral is a person who supports both sides,

Bzzzt! Wrong.

I wanna be able to pick a side instead of having - in this case - Clotis trying to shove it down my throat.

Maybe I'm reading a different thread, because I saw no one shoving anything anywhere near your throat.

In order for me to fairly pick, I need both sides.

It's not about "picking". There is no choice, really. Compilation GIVES you an answer and you either accept it, or you don't. Waving the neutrality flag as a cover for "uninformed" won't fly here. Or anywhere, long.

But, you are probably right about one part of your post, FHS.
I should drop my three jobs and read them

Either your age is wrong, or you work 2 hours a day at each job, or you don't live in the US, because here, we have laws that prevent 16 year olds from working 3 grueling jobs.

{My free time doesn't include the time to read long ass novels for right now.

Nope, but spending a few hours on the internet seems to fit in just fine. And the novellas aren't long. At all. It takes more time to read this thread.

I work 53 hours a week on average and have a family life, kids, and PTA events, and even I can squeeze in a book or two between work and groceries. It can be done. Using your far more important real life as a way to fend off arguments is an internet duck and weave as old as 'www'.

 

[Splintered]

Normally, I don't like personality attacking, but I have some issues with your views of neutrality.

A neutral is a person who supports both sides, which I do! I wanna be able to pick a side instead of having - in this case - Clotis trying to shove it down my throat. I tried this with a group of Cloriths and they tried to make me pick a side without showing me facts, or, avoiding showing me facts. Which, has been happening here

A neutral has multiple meanings, one of which is that there is no particular leanings to any side, not that they don't form any conclusions- just not ones based of preference. Although in the context of an ltd, you can be one with a preference who doesn't believe in a conclusion (I'm a Cloud/Tifa who doesn't believe in a canon.) But neutrals can be ignorant of information as well, such as the ones who refuse to do anything with pairings.

Also, what the hell, you say we are avoiding give you the facts but you have actively avoided reading the essay written. That's unfair.

This entire thread has been about debating and fact throwing. It's less shoving down your throat and more aggressive discussion. I'm not going to say it's not overwhelming sometimes, but of course people are going to try to prove they are right. That's the point of a debate thread. You can't actively hide behind neutrality as a way to avoid scrutiny. People here have called me out on my neutrality and I fight to prove why I think that's the way it is, just like they try to prove it is not. That's the way it goes, not "stop trying to shove your beliefs down my throat."

In order for me to fairly pick, I need both sides.

Yes you do. But, uh, I don't see how this coincides with not reading novels and ultimanias. The first thing you need is the complete information. You not only do this by hearing both sides, but getting all the necessary information, usually from the original source. Otherwise getting all your points from only one piece of the puzzle (just the game) is an even more hazardous for of bias selection than just preference.

The novels are neither long or difficult, you could knock out most of them in a few minutes. And they are canon, there is no dispute about that, they have been considered an official part of the timeline. The Novels are written by the same guy who wrote the game. You want to go into reading it already drawing your conclusions from debate, that's not how neutrality works.

Don't mind anything you read in this thread, read the novels, form your beliefs, come back and debate. It's much better that way anyway.

 

[Tennyo]

Plus, you don't have to come out of the closet to a Clorith/Cloti friend and say "I'm Clorith/Cloti. Do you still like me enough?"

lol I'm sorry but do people actually do this?

Also if you REALLY want to be neutral go live in Switzerland.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sometimes I wonder what causes someone to ride in on their high horse to decry the LTD of FFVII, without even knowing all the facts in the first place...

And another thing: this is fiction. Most of these arguments seem oblivious to the distinction between literary and historical criticism, the two of which have completely different methods and objectives

You really don't know who debates here, do you?

You can debate the love triangle in terms of which pairing makes for a better story, sure, but to argue about fictional characters and fictional events in terms of "fact" with the aim of establishing some kind of irrefutable objective consensus or whatever is a monumental waste of time for a worthless cause that contributes nothing to anyone's appreciation of this video game, does nothing to stimulate the intellect, and makes no one's life the richer.

Because stories don't have facts right? Lulz. Clearly the Compilation is a "chose your own adventure" story. And speak for yourself. Think its a monumental waste of time? The doors right over there. It's the internet. Deal.

 

[Isabella]

a worthless cause that contributes nothing to anyone's appreciation of this video game, does nothing to stimulate the intellect, and makes no one's life the richer

*chuckles* In contrast to the rest of the discussion on these forums, you mean?

We're all here because we enjoy the conversation. I don't think anyone has delusions of grandeur.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

People can only argue about this so much before everyone involved just looks weird and pathetic. People have differing opinions; opinions are subjective; opinions are not facts; get on with your life.

I can't help but think that rabid shippers must have unresolved psychological issues to be projecting so much sexual preference on fictional characters in a story where romance plays a relatively small role. And another thing: this is fiction. Most of these arguments seem oblivious to the distinction between literary and historical criticism, the two of which have completely different methods and objectives. You can debate the love triangle in terms of which pairing makes for a better story, sure, but to argue about fictional characters and fictional events in terms of "fact" with the aim of establishing some kind of irrefutable objective consensus or whatever is a monumental waste of time for a worthless cause that contributes nothing to anyone's appreciation of this video game, does nothing to stimulate the intellect, and makes no one's life the richer.

But who am I to be telling you what to devote your energies to? I'm wasting mine right now.

The post is written so well I hope no one takes too much offense. I genuinely can't.

In any event, while I don't disagree with some of your conclusions nor the deductive reasoning you used to arrive at any of those destinations, I do disagree with a premise you built from. Naturally, that would mean a call into question of the process as a whole.

While opinion certainly plays a large role in this matter -- as it does in so many others that actually do lend themselves to enriching the universal wellspring -- it is not playing every part. Fact is performing in this play as well, and in several scenes.

Reasoning too was cast a role.

While you may argue that opinion is the leading man, I would posit that we're dealing with an ensemble cast.

 

[Vendel]

The internet was made for discussions about all kinds of irrelevant bullshit.

And that is why we love it.

Calling people out for it in a serious manor speaks to me of mental issues.

 

[Dashell]

People can only argue about this so much before everyone involved just looks weird and pathetic. People have differing opinions; opinions are subjective; opinions are not facts; get on with your life.

I can't help but think that rabid shippers must have unresolved psychological issues to be projecting so much sexual preference on fictional characters in a story where romance plays a relatively small role. And another thing: this is fiction. Most of these arguments seem oblivious to the distinction between literary and historical criticism, the two of which have completely different methods and objectives. You can debate the love triangle in terms of which pairing makes for a better story, sure, but to argue about fictional characters and fictional events in terms of "fact" with the aim of establishing some kind of irrefutable objective consensus or whatever is a monumental waste of time for a worthless cause that contributes nothing to anyone's appreciation of this video game, does nothing to stimulate the intellect, and makes no one's life the richer.

But who am I to be telling you what to devote your energies to? I'm wasting mine right now.

...

so he is Clerith or Cloti, I can't tell

 

[Vendel]

Pretty much the response I was expecting.

1. I am not arguing that factual observations can't be made of a story. That much should be obvious. I am arguing that the ambiguities of fictional text and subtext can't be ruled out to yield some sort of universal truth, namely because they don't exist universally outside the diegesis in which they are ambiguously presented. The article endorsed on the front page of this site and lauded by much of the userbase apparantly assumes otherwise. It also founds a great deal of its assumptions on controversial (i.e. obsolete) notions of proof like extratextual evidence and authorial intent (the latter in discussion of what is not even remotely an auteur work).

2. Does anyone think I'm really going to read all 300 and something pages of this thread? I know how these arguments go, I looked at some of it. My post was written mainly in response to the article on the front page, which has no more room for comments. Since this thread is the forum equivalent, and because my comment is germane to the topic, I posted it here. But that's not the point, which is this: I don't have to consider the individual merits of every single person and post here because my post is not aimed at the people here categorically. The post is addressed rabid shippers in general.


Everybody else can have the last word. I'll be over there practicing my autoharp scales >>>

Cool story bro.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Pretty much the response I was expecting.

1. I am not arguing that factual observations can't be made of a story. That much should be obvious. I am arguing that the ambiguities of fictional text and subtext can't be ruled out to yield some sort of universal truth, namely because they don't exist universally outside the diegesis in which they are ambiguously presented. The article endorsed on the front page of this site and lauded by much of the userbase apparently assumes otherwise. It also founds a great deal of its assumptions on controversial (i.e. obsolete) notions of proof like extratextual evidence and authorial intent (the latter in discussion of what is not even remotely an auteur work).

You ascribe to death of the author and text only interpretations to the exclusion of all others.
You are dead to me sir. While an interesting method to use, it is not the only valid method to use, and not the most valid method by far. Authorial intent is valid, ESPECIALLY in cases of ambiguous things such as motivation and emotion not originally spoken of by the text.

IOW, YES, DUMBLEDORE IS GAY AND THE BALROG DIDN'T MAKE NOISE.

2. Does anyone think I'm really going to read all 300 and something pages of this thread? I know how these arguments go, I looked at some of it. My post was written mainly in response to the article on the front page, which has no more room for comments. Since this thread is the forum equivalent, and because my comment is germane to the topic, I posted it here. But that's not the point, which is this: I don't have to consider the individual merits of every single person and post here because my post is not aimed at the people here categorically. The post is addressed rabid shippers in general.

Of which, we are not.

Everybody else can have the last word. I'll be over there practicing my autoharp scales >>>

EDIT: Yes, I have mental issues. Who doesn't? I thought I copped to that already. I have to be crazy to plea for a thoughtful and literary approach to an irrelevant internet topic. It's all about boredom.

...Child, Bella and I are accredited with Lit degrees. Not to wave our credentials around, but my point is we're hardly just shipping rabidly or conducting ourself without any sort of idea of literary methods of analysis.

Goddamn death of the author nutbars.
New criticism not the only criticism :angered muttering:

 

[Vendel]

...

so he is Clerith or Cloti, I can't tell

Well since it is all open for interpretation? I am guessing disillusioned Clerith.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The entire work of fiction is made by the author and their intent. Throwing out what they say about THEIR story makes no sense.

 

[Dashell]

Yo lentils on lent, I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but Chris Chan was one of the greatest people with mental problems of all time!


(did I do it right?)

 

[lentils on lent]

I hate to butt in and offer myself up for another round of dunk bozo, but since we're all having a good time, may I point out that the traditional model of the author doesn't really apply to Final Fantasy VII?

 

[Dashell]

I hate to butt in and offer myself up for another round of dunk bozo, but since we're all having a good time, may I point out that the traditional model of the author doesn't really apply to Final Fantasy VII?

oh well SHIT you just disproved Cloti, good job.

No what are you talking about, really? Because it's a game? Is that it? So Nomura and Nojima aren't traditional so they don't count? What are you trying to prove?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I hate to butt in but what the hell are you talking about?

 

[Max Payne]

I hate to butt in but that's bullshit.

What the writer says goes. The animators, modelers, all manner of artists and technicians working on the game only convey the author's intent as well as they can with the tools they have. It doesn't matter if it's a single writer of a collaborating team.

 

[lentils on lent]

You guys seem rather angry.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wow, because calling out BS, mean's you're angry?

 

[Dashell]

You guys seem rather angry.

You seem rather not make sensey.