So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[The Twilight Mexican]

Pretty much the response I was expecting.

Yours was not the one I was expecting.

1. I am not arguing that factual observations can't be made of a story. That much should be obvious. I am arguing that the ambiguities of fictional text and subtext can't be ruled out to yield some sort of universal truth, namely because they don't exist universally outside the diegesis in which they are ambiguously presented. The article endorsed on the front page of this site and lauded by much of the userbase apparently assumes otherwise. It also founds a great deal of its assumptions on controversial (i.e. obsolete) notions of proof like extratextual evidence and authorial intent (the latter in discussion of what is not even remotely an auteur work).

As Ryu said, several of us here are intimately familiar with literary analysis -- even of games and film -- and the idea of a story leaving the author's hand and becoming something beyond their power once an audience begins to interact with it. I harp on it at length in decrying the Compilation of FFVII in my FAQ.

However, simple literary analysis isn't what is ever at work in a discussion of the LTD. The discussion is centered around canon, which -- as I'm sure you're aware -- is all about authorial intent and extratextual evidence.

While I don't care for those things any more than you do, I'm not going to pretend they have no place in a discussion whose context is based entirely upon them.

I hate to butt in but that's bullshit.

What the writer says goes. The animators, modelers, all manner of artists and technicians working on the game only convey the author's intent as well as they can with the tools they have. It doesn't matter if it's a single writer of a collaborating team.

I think this was the point lentils was going with about the traditional auteur model not applying.

While it's not like a novel, and not entirely like a film, I'm not sure why the collaborative nature of the game -- and, at this point, the other Compilation materials -- would hinder things. Especially when all of the key people involved who have commented on the matter seem to be going in the same direction.

And certainly random programmers haven't been doing anything to undercut Nojima's comments.

 

[Isabella]

And certainly random programmers haven't been doing anything to undercut Nojima's comments.

I have seen it argued that the animators overruled the script (and hence Nojima) by making Aerith appear more "solid" in AC's closing credits than she's described in the script. Therefore, the script -- which states that Cloud never sees her but simply drives away -- is irrelevant.

As for New Criticism, as TresDias said, I feel it's out of place in a discussion about canon. As we know, canon encompasses all materials the writer/s consider official.

 

[aniron]

Argued or not, AC script clearly states that Cloud never saw Aerith. He was just passing by that field and that's that.
I must say though that "solid" Aerith is definitely better choice, not sure if I was prepared to see her ghost in the field in the light of a day.

Im not sure why they removed her in ACC either... figures her presence wasn't that important after all?

 

[Eerie]

TresDias, you are really... patient XD LOL.

I'm not XD

Tell me, lentils, do you feel superior for not wanting to argue anything? What if people do enjoy a relationship in a work of fiction? Does that make you feel superior to spit on people who are looking for FACTS in a story?

I personally think that authors - and Nojima, in the case we're talking about - like the fact that fans talk about their work. Is it trivial to talk about the story in itself, or about the LTD? In FFVII's case, even though the LTD is really a little part of the game, Cloud's feelings ARE important, because they are what made him that way. If the way Cloud felt was unimportant, I don't think that they would have make him search for a cure for Denzel, wanting to be forgiven by Aerith and Zack, wanting to protect his family, feeling loved again and forgiving himself. Might as well have a blank sheet of paper slashing right and left with a big sword _o/

I've seen shippers talk about power levels better than fanboys. I've also seen them predict what would happen next better than any fanboy, because in a story that is character-driven, the feelings each character holds is important for the storyline.

I personally don't think that liking a pairing is OMG really ludicrous; many people enjoy pairings and the interactions between two characters. How is that bad? I also enjoy superheroes movies. But if you have a problem with that, why butting in in a convo that talks about canon facts? Who exactly forced you to click on the thread and troll in an oh-so puerile manner?

 

[aniron]

http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Crater/index.php?act=idx
In a typical Clerith fashion, you can't make threads or reply to them until admins give you the permission.

 

[Makoeyes987]

http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Crater/index.php?act=idx
In a typical Clerith fashion, you can't make threads or reply to them until admins give you the permission.

You just linked to the entire board, is there something specific we're supposed to be seeing? But yeah, its dumb.

 

[aniron]

You just linked to the entire board, is there something specific we're supposed to be seeing? But yeah, its dumb.

Umh, sorry.
http://z14.invisionfree.com/The_Northern_Crater/index.php?showforum=54
You can't make threads in LT section and reply to them.
Curiously, other sections are open.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh yeah, that's utterly ridiculous.

 

[lentils on lent]

TresDias, you are really... patient

TresDias is a peacemaker apparently more interested in discussing the issues rather than playing dunk bozo with the loudmouth passerbyer for quick rep points.

Tell me, lentils, do you feel superior for not wanting to argue anything?

I'd like to argue your implied statement, and in doing so prove it false.

Seriously though, I'm just tired of hearing people argue this Cloti/Cleris thing after for 10+ years. So tired. I went to the lifestream.net to read news and updates, and instead I got opinion fobbed off as fact. The comments were filled up, so I expressed my annoyance here. End of story.

Now then, since people have expressed interest the viability of New Criticism in relation to canon and fandom, I'd like to share this lecture outline I read a while back. I think it makes a very compelling argument on pages 14-16. Because sharing ideas is what this is all about, right?

http://web.mit.edu/comm-forum/mit5/papers/Chaney_Liebler_MIT5.pdf

"The romantic ideal of one lone author creating and having complete interpretive control over his/her own work has been rendered obsolete, if it ever truly existed in the first place. The idea of a closed canon assumes a piece of work is created in a vacuum, excluding issues of public domain, ghostwriters, corporations being able to revive pop culture franchise, the Internet, and of course, fans. With this in mind, pop culture canon is never truly closed; the door is always cracked open. McKee states that:

“canon is never absolute. Its definition is achieved by consensus within various groups, but it is never stable. It is always open to challenge, is different for different groups – and can, of course, change over time. And it is the fans, finally, who make those decisions. It is they who are ultimately the powerful ones."

 

[Dashell]

Ignoring whatever the guy above me said...

the rule of TNC is that you have to have someone to debate with before I can let you post in the debate forum. If you state your terms and no one agrees with you, go into a Clerith topic (like here here or here and ask if it's okay to debate with them. If they say yeah (and they probably will), then you're good to go. I can't let anyone in until someone agrees with them. Please understand Im just following the guidelines I was given. I all ready screwed up by letting a couple Clotis in too soon.

It might be a bit cumbersome but at least this way we won't have people complaining about being swamped or they don't like how so and so debates.

I also invited a bunch of Cleriths from youtube

EDIT:

“canon is never absolute. Its definition is achieved by consensus within various groups, but it is never stable. It is always open to challenge, is different for different groups – and can, of course, change over time. And it is the fans, finally, who make those decisions. It is they who are ultimately the powerful ones."

WHAT IS THIS? I DON'T EVEN!

 

[aniron]

Ignoring whatever the guy above me said...

the rule of TNC is that you have to have someone to debate with before I can let you post in the debate forum. If you state your terms and no one agrees with you, go into a Clerith topic (like here here or here and ask if it's okay to debate with them. If they say yeah (and they probably will), then you're good to go. I can't let anyone in until someone agrees with them. Please understand Im just following the guidelines I was given. I all ready screwed up by letting a couple Clotis in too soon.

It might be a bit cumbersome but at least this way we won't have people complaining about being swamped or they don't like how so and so debates.

But this is ridiculous.
Why can't I join current discussions? Because Im not -something- enough for Cleriths?
And I can't start a topic unless I find someone willing to discuss (please note, I said discuss, not debate) it with me?
Oh my...

Id better stay away from this forum then as I originally planned.

edit; I don't quite understand, why should we (Clotis) debate on Cleriths terms? Are they doing us a favor to state such terms or what?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's like bringing a super-soaker to a gun fight.

You go on playing "new criticism" while everyone else discusses the story as its intended by its authors. You make no sense at all. I don't give a shit about sharing ideas that run contrary to the original authorial intent. No one is. So you go play by yourself then.

To quote a famous critic, "fuck the fans."

 

[lentils on lent]

TresDias, you are really... patient

TresDias is a peacemaker apparently more interested in discussing the issues rather than playing dunk bozo with the loudmouth passerbyer for quick rep points.

Tell me, lentils, do you feel superior for not wanting to argue anything?

I'd like to argue your implied statement, and in doing so prove it false.

Seriously though, I'm just tired of hearing people argue this Cloti/Cleris after for 10+ years. So tired. I went to the lifestream.net to read news and updates, and instead I got opinion fobbed off as fact. The comments were filled up, so I expressed my annoyance here. End of story.

Now then, since people have expressed interest the viability of New Criticism in relation to canon and fandom, I'd like to share this lecture outline I read a while back. I think it makes a very compelling argument on pages 14-16. Because sharing ideas is what this is all about.

http://web.mit.edu/comm-forum/mit5/papers/Chaney_Liebler_MIT5.pdf

"The romantic ideal of one lone author creating and having complete interpretive control over his/her own work has been rendered obsolete, if it ever truly existed in the first place. The idea of a closed canon assumes a piece of work is created in a vacuum, excluding issues of public domain, ghostwriters, corporations being able to revive pop culture franchise, the Internet, and of course, fans. With this in mind, pop culture canon is never truly closed; the door is always cracked open. McKee states that:

“canon is never absolute. Its definition is achieved by consensus within various groups, but it is never stable. It is always open to challenge, is different for different groups – and can, of course, change over time. And it is the fans, finally, who make those decisions. It is they who are ultimately the powerful ones."

 

[Dashell]

Im not -something- enough for Cleriths?

... what?

Sorry I didn't make the rules If you have a problem, I suggest you take it up with Shroudy, or as your post implied, don't go. But it sucks, I really want more people there.

edit; I don't quite understand, why should we (Clotis) debate on Cleriths terms? Are they doing us a favor to state such terms or what?

The Cleriths have to agree to the terms as well. MagikElite and AA both agreed to my terms and Ryu's terms and everyone else. It's not just you. In fact KtR debates Clerith a lot and she hasn't been let in yet either.

Also just because it bares repeating:

“canon is never absolute. Its definition is achieved by consensus within various groups, but it is never stable. It is always open to challenge, is different for different groups – and can, of course, change over time. And it is the fans, finally, who make those decisions. It is they who are ultimately the powerful ones."

WHAT IS THIS? I DON'T EVEN!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay seriously Que, you can stop plugging your forum now.

 

[Dashell]

err sorry she was asking questions and I wanted to answer them. I guess any other questions you have, just PM me.... ugh but I'm pretty tired so I probably won't answer them right away

Also, lentils on lent, did you just say the same exact thing twice?

 

[lentils on lent]

That's like bringing a super-soaker to a gun fight.

Less wanton brutality, more good-natured sport? I can't think of a higher compliment.

You go on playing "new criticism" while everyone else discusses the story as its intended by its authors. You make no sense at all. I don't give a shit about sharing ideas that run contrary to the original authorial intent. No one is. So you go play by yourself then.

To quote a famous critic, "fuck the fans."

Tsk tsk. Two different posters here make a comment on something they find relevant (authorial intent in relation to fandom/canon), I share a text featuring the opinions of multiple scholars on the subject, and then the admin, whose job it is to maintain civil and productive discussion, repays my conduct with profane insults. I'd be offended if it weren't so absurd.

 

[Dashell]

How was Mako profane? He quoted someone but other than that he was just pointing out where you were wrong. And you basically are wrong. I'm not being "profane" or anything, just pointing it out. Just because some scholars say something doesn't make it true. If they all got together and decided the earth was flat, would it make that true?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Less wanton brutality, more good-natured sport? I can't think of a higher compliment.



Tsk tsk. Two different posters here make a comment on something they find relevant (authorial intent in relation to fandom/canon), I share a text featuring the opinions of multiple scholars on the subject, and then the forum moderator, whose job it is to maintain civil and productive discussion, repays my conduct with profane insults. I'd be offended if it weren't so absurd.

Good job playing the victim. You get a star. No where were you insulted, buddy. Only your ridiculous argument which was equated to bringing a completely out of place weapon to a serious discussion of authorial intent. Again. No one cares. Multiple scholars on the subject of interpretation, doesn't mean jack in a discussion on FACTUAL analysis. Subjective opinions are worth dirt.

 

[aniron]

... what?

Sorry I didn't make the rules If you have a problem, I suggest you take it up with Shroudy, or as your post implied, don't go. But it sucks, I really want more people there.


The Cleriths have to agree to the terms as well. MagikElite and AA both agreed to my terms and Ryu's terms and everyone else. It's not just you. In fact KtR debates Clerith a lot and she hasn't been let in yet either.

As I said before, you don't have to apologize, Q.
Im just used to open threads if I want to discuss a particular topic and let anyone interested discuss it with me. Or join topics if I have something to say.
This whole idea of going around the forum looking for a sparring mate isn't very appealing.

 

[Raquelborn]

Caring for orphans Does Not an orphanage make.

Plus, the website says Cloud 'prefers living alone', which is quite false.

But isn't that the official website you're talking about?

You can be happy living with loved ones even if you prefer to live alone.

As I said before, you don't have to apologize, Q.
Im just used to open threads if I want to discuss a particular topic and let anyone interested discuss it with me. Or join topics if I have something to say.
This whole idea of going around the forum looking for a sparring mate isn't very appealing.

Agreed. It gives the forum a heavily policed feel and it puts me off really.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Too bad the official website is not even based on legitimate sources from the creators. That's like saying the tv commercials are official and irrefutable. Every single official source and Japanese material contradicts it.

 

[Roger]

It's pretty hard to prefer living alone when you hate being alone.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

In fact KtR debates Clerith a lot and she hasn't been let in yet either.

And this is why you will never see me at TNC. She hasn't been "let in"? WHAT, Que?!? It's a fucking fandom forum, not a night club! There are no velvet ropes on the internet. That's not only retarded but insulting. Also, it'll be a cold day in the bowels of hades before I ask permission to voice my opinion on a free forum. Fuck that, I say. Bullshit is bullshit, Que, no matter how nicely you try and dress it up.

Also, can I just say how amused I am when people (not only lentils for lent, but they've provided the latest round of chuckles) come in spouting scholarly nonsensical gibberish in regards to a topic that really doesn't address the topic at hand. It's the "educated strawman" approach and it makes me giggle every time. So thanks.

Now onto my slightly less magniloquent reply:

Interpretation and audience interaction are as limited as the author lets it be. Harry doesn't want to hump Hermione, Old Yeller doesn't live, and oh, yeah, Barret is black. Fact. There is no way to get around that. He is an angry black man. But we can't associate any cultural/stereotypical reasoning behind his anger. It's clearly shown and stated within the works of FFVII why Barret is the way he is and his motivation. We can't change that simply by misinterpreting it or adding speculation outside the given material. We can form opinions and debate, certainly, but the facts will ultimately remain the facts.

The same holds true with the LTD. Compilation gives us an answer, cemented in the narrative, and highlighted by outside creator commentary. Form an opinion, debate it, but it won't change what the FACTS are.

And SoS's post on the front page is LOADED with facts. Not opinion.

And before another round of "high brow" pseudo-snarktacular answers address that, let me add that, yes, there are facts within fictional works. The realm of that work creates it's own set of facts--and whether they jive with "real world" facts/expectations is irrelevant. The fictional universe IS self contained, despite some scholars asserting that it's not. The only thing not contained is the audience's interpretation, which is hopefully wide and varied and the piece encourages opinions to be form and intellectual analysis. That still doesn't erode or diminish the facts of the work or held within the work. And as, mankind has proven a thousand times over, interpretation can be varied and occasionally wrong. Especially in cases where there's an emotional attachment. Such as a video game.

And let's not forget that this is a video game, and as much as it can be considered a literary work, it has its own unique place in the genre. By it's very nature a video game's narrative is decided and not nearly as open to speculation as other works.

This is particularly true when the creators and developers of the game TELL YOU what their intent was and GIVE you GUIDEBOOKS to follow it. I mean, they are hand-holding you through the discourse. It's not all that hard. Really.

 

[lentils on lent]

Good job playing the victim. You get a star. No where were you insulted, buddy. Only your ridiculous argument which was equated to bringing a completely out of place weapon to a serious discussion of authorial intent. Again. No one cares. Multiple scholars on the subject of interpretation, doesn't mean jack in a discussion on FACTUAL analysis. Subjective opinions are worth dirt.

Multiple people here had different (and at times passionate) ideas to share regarding authorial intent in relation to fandom/canon, so I thought I could make peace by contributing an interesting text on the subject, emphasizing that I wanted to henceforth share ideas rather than quarrel. It was my intention to clear the air by channeling any lingering animosity into something positive, in this case the discussion of a common interest (theory and criticism). You insulted me when you mocked this effort by saying that you "don't give a shit about sharing ideas" that are "contrary"' to your own views (of authorship), and essentially told me to get lost. It's in plain English for everyone to see. Look, I understand that under normal circumstances it would be strange for me to share that lecture outline in a thread like this one, I get that. But in this in case people had expressed strong feelings on the subject, and it was therefore relevant.

Personally I think those here who showed an interest in theoretical questions of authorship will be appalled by your outright hostility and coarse disposition toward certain ideas simply because they are different from your own. You are the administrator of a forum, and a forum by defintion is where people share ideas from different points of view in a civil manner.

I admit my initial post was a bit outspoken, and I was expecting a somewhat of a backlash (after all, I was asking for it) but I never directed hostility at anyone personally, which till now I've put up with. At first I was a good sport about my pillorying, throwing in little jokes about it and whatnot (after all, I was asking for it, and taking turns dunking bozo made you all closer as a community). But now I've long since borne more than my fair share of the ridicule, and now that I've made a serious effort to contribute something postive and perhaps enlightening to this discussion only to have it thrown back in my face, yes, I find it a bit outrageous. Can you blame me? Of course you can.