So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

Tell you what, I don't want to read that Essay, but what I WILL do is listen to the Safe and Sound song... and we'll call it even

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Honestly, from my discussions with Anastar and FF Goddess, I can see how a Clerith perspective can be supported.

Can it - forgive the question - but can it be rationally supported?

I think it still defies the most simple of explanations, and that Nojima's statement about Case of Tifa refutes it...

If by "Clerith" perspective, you mean "As of now (following the events of Dirge of Cerberus), Aerith loves Cloud romantically, Cloud loves Aerith romantically, and loves Tifa not at all romantically," then I am completely unsure how a Clerith perspective can be supported at all. Especially if, as you say, it defies the most simple of explanations and is refuted by Nojima's statement about Case of Tifa.

I can't claim to have done an in-depth study of the movie and games, but from what I can tell, a Clerith perspective (as defined above), can only be supported if parts of the Compilation are considered, and others disregarded. If we talk about whether the Clerith perspective is supported, shouldn't we consider the Compilation as a whole?

 

[Isabella]

The ending of the original Advent Children was a music video entitled Calling, which contained very clear references to the CloudxAerith relationship.

Way to go, Vendel. This is the first sentence of that essay. And it's as far as I got before I choked on my chamomile tea. "Very clear references." If they're very clear, everyone should see them, correct? I saw Cloud riding around on his bike making deliveries. *shrug*

 

[Dashell]

And those "references" were removed in ACC XD

And I love how Tres is like "I can see how Clerith can be supported" and everyone is like "NO YOU CAN'T!"

 

[Isabella]

There were no references to remove! There is nothing romantic about the movie credits! Now I'm getting frustrated.

 

[Dashell]

Well they see Aerith being shown watching Cloud on his bike a "reference"

I'm assuming anyway...

 

[aniron]

Even if it's a reference, then only to Aerith's feelings. She watches Cloud, Cloud passes by without seeing her.

 

[Vendel]

Well they see Aerith being shown watching Cloud on his bike a "reference"

I'm assuming anyway...

Well the way the essay went on about the two new scenes added in ACC and how they are all about Aerith. And that must mean it is about C/A.

Nope. Nothing to do with Zack here. Not his grave site, nor his sword in her church.

 

[Isabella]

I know, I know. But "very clear references" to a relationship that doesn't exist? If by "CloudxAerith relationship" she means that of a deceased friend watching over in the short time she has left before she becomes one with the Lifestream, then maybe. But we both know that's not what she means.

 

[Vendel]

I know, I know. But "very clear references" to a relationship that doesn't exist? If by "CloudxAerith relationship" she means that of a deceased friend watching over in the short time she has left before she becomes one with the Lifestream, then maybe. But we both know that's not what she means.

Yeah. I keep reading it and I can almost see it color coded in my mind. One color for downplaying Tifa and family. One for ignoring Zack. One color for pure fanfic. Etc etc.

 

[Dashell]

The argument is that if they wanted to show a Cloti ending why didn't they show Cloud returning to Tifa's arms... well if they wanted to show a Clerith ending, why didn't they show Cloud running to Aerith's arms? And why does the Ultimania say that Cloud did, in fact, return to his family?

 

[Vendel]

And I love how Tres is like "I can see how Clerith can be supported" and everyone is like "NO YOU CAN'T!"

Yes well. We are rabid Cloti bullies. You know that.

 

[Isabella]

The movie wasn't about "Cloti" or "Clerith" (ugh, I've always hated pairing names) so him rushing into anyone's arms is a big ol' WTF to me. It's about Cloud seeking closure and peace. I see Cloud doing what he loves -- riding his motorcycle -- around a beautiful landscape as about as peaceful as we'll ever see him.

 

[aniron]

The argument is that if they wanted to show a Cloti ending why didn't they show Cloud returning to Tifa's arms... well if they wanted to show a Clerith ending, why didn't they show Cloud running to Aerith's arms? And why does the Ultimania say that Cloud did, in fact, return to his family?

And he did!

The very final scene in AC shows his desk at SH with the new picture on it.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Even if it's a reference, then only to Aerith's feelings. She watches Cloud, Cloud passes by without seeing her.

And there is the FFVII LTD in a nutshell.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Honestly, from my discussions with Anastar and FF Goddess, I can see how a Clerith perspective can be supported.

I can't. Not without doing the characters a great disservice.

Agreed, but I don't know if that's the Cloti in me talking or the researcher.

At most, I can see where they left room for Cloud to have been developing feelings for Aerith. And maybe he'll always carry around the remnants of those feelings, and have a small sense of regret and/or thoughts of "what if."

Yeah, I can see that too.

But what I can't see room for is denial that Cloud and Tifa are together.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

Given that 'realize their feelings for each other' was said in regards to Cloud and Tifa, among everything else, that's gotta be some very very tight room to fit in.

Given that the phrases used within the CC Ultimania ("communicate their feelings") and the FFVII Ultimania Omega ("disclose their feelings for each other") tend to be used the same way in Japanese that "realize their feelings for each other" is used in English, I agree.

The LTD. The gift that keeps on giving.

Who would want it to end?

Of course it can. If you go in with a Clerith PoV (or at the very least an anti-Tifa PoV). And also ignore or downplay every possible connection Cloud has with Tifa (or Zack for that matter). Also downplay any effect Zack had on Aerith. And then amplify anything and everything that has to do with Cloud and Aerith.

I agree that it requires downplaying stuff between Cloud and Tifa. Furthermore, while I would say that it doesn't require things be put together in isolation on the Cloud/Aerith side of things, it does require a frequently isolated view of matters on the Cloud/Tifa side.

As for Zack, I accept that she got over him and genuinely loved Cloud.

Or maybe people just look into way to much. Also did you ever ask them why they have changed from "CLERITH IS TTLY CANON" to "There is no canon pairing"?

Some still believe that the "koibito" line from Case of Lifestream White is to be taken as an indicator of canon.

You have to go to A LOT of trouble and jump through a lot of hoops to disprove things like "realize their feelings for each other," Tifa being someone's beloved in AC/C, Cloud and Tifa raising a family (sleeping in the same room or not) and Nojima bring up love, marriage and family in context to Cloud and Tifa.

Not that I disagree, but I am willing to concede that if you're looking for it, it's possible to find those hoops to leap through. But possible doesn't equal plausible, so I'm not putting it in the same echelon as Cloti.

What's more, what I really want to know is, why does Clerith require so many essays? Why does it need to be explained? Why do they need to get real Japanese people in to tell us what this and that means? Why does everything have to be squinted at and hinted at and require so much depth to it and effort to prove it... where as you have C and T living together raising a family after they realized their feelings for one another.

Well, there's where I bring up "it defies the most simple of explanations" and "possible doesn't equal plausible." XD

Nojima and Nomura are not these riddle masterminds who insert tiny little hints and puzzle pieces into their interviews and writings. They flat out said "CLOUD AND TIFA BELONG TOGETHER!" "TIFA HAS A LOVER IN ACC" "CLOUD AND TIFA REALIZED THEIR FEELINGS FOR ONE ANOTHER!" (not in those exact words mind you)

... I mean really... what do you need?

"Riddle masterminds" made me laugh. XD

But turn on some Marvin Gaye and chillax, Que. It's going to be okay. Promise.

I'm still with ya.

And Tres, TBH, I'd rather you not change you essay just to please the Cleriths. Their gift to you was opening up TNC for you... and it didn't really look like any of them showed up really except Shroudy... I'm glad everything came out peacefully, but your essay is fine the way it is. I'd really like to see you keep it.

Thanks Que. But there are a few things in it that I genuinely need to address that I haven't so far. Some of it bolsters the Cloti side of things. Some of it's me giving readers a better understanding of the Clerith perspective. That's only fair.

ou guys I just watched an HD version of Aerith's death and it looks like her ribbon has flat ends again even in that scene...

Oh fuck. You just blew this whole thing open.

Good or bad?

Were any of us really paying close enough attention to know? But it's got to be big news.

LOL, I think that's the most frustrated I've ever seen Quex.

Indeed. I'm sorry, Que. XD

And before anyone says anything, no I'm not bashing anyone or hating on anyone in particular. I just really don't like some of their arguments, especially when you have to squint so damn hard. And frankly, I have the same problem with a lot of religions. So it's the arguments I don't like, not the people....

"Hate the sin, not the sinner"?

Can it - forgive the question - but can it be rationally supported?

Well, it's not so much a matter of "rationality" as it is a matter of "rationale," if you feel me.

If by "Clerith" perspective, you mean "As of now (following the events of Dirge of Cerberus), Aerith loves Cloud romantically, Cloud loves Aerith romantically, and loves Tifa not at all romantically," then I am completely unsure how a Clerith perspective can be supported at all. Especially if, as you say, it defies the most simple of explanations and is refuted by Nojima's statement about Case of Tifa.

I can't claim to have done an in-depth study of the movie and games, but from what I can tell, a Clerith perspective (as defined above), can only be supported if parts of the Compilation are considered, and others disregarded. If we talk about whether the Clerith perspective is supported, shouldn't we consider the Compilation as a whole?

Ah, well there's the rub. XD

Again, possible, not plausible. Feels like I'm debating "Rinoa=Ultimecia" again every time I say that. D:

Well the way the essay went on about the two new scenes added in ACC and how they are all about Aerith. And that must mean it is about C/A.

Nope. Nothing to do with Zack here. Not his grave site, nor his sword in her church.

Don't you get that Cloud's sword piercing the floorboards of Aerith's church is a symbol of -- "petting the flowers"? Come on, Vendel! I know you're sharper on the uptake than that!

The movie wasn't about "Cloti" or "Clerith" (ugh, I've always hated pairing names) so him rushing into anyone's arms is a big ol' WTF to me. It's about Cloud seeking closure and peace. I see Cloud doing what he loves -- riding his motorcycle -- around a beautiful landscape as about as peaceful as we'll ever see him.

Agreed. Absolutely 100% agreed.

The argument is that if they wanted to show a Cloti ending why didn't they show Cloud returning to Tifa's arms... well if they wanted to show a Clerith ending, why didn't they show Cloud running to Aerith's arms? And why does the Ultimania say that Cloud did, in fact, return to his family?

And he did!

The very final scene in AC shows his desk at SH with the new picture on it.

Good points, both. I always just responded to that, though, with the point Isabella made.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Given that the phrases used within the CC Ultimania ("communicate their feelings") and the FFVII Ultimania Omega ("disclose their feelings for each other") tend to be used the same way in Japanese that "realize their feelings for each other" is used in English, I agree.

The idiom, she is the death knell of the pink, such as it were.

I agree that it requires downplaying stuff between Cloud and Tifa. Furthermore, while I would say that it doesn't require things be put together in isolation on the Cloud/Aerith side of things, it does require a frequently isolated view of matters on the Cloud/Tifa side.

Somehow, that still feels like an understatement.
Of course, the C/A side sometimes requires things that in no way go together to be put together- the Ribbon and Cloud, for example.

As for Zack, I accept that she got over him and genuinely loved Cloud.

I disagree with the former, as I've said before, but agree with the latter.

Some still believe that the "koibito" line from Case of Lifestream White is to be taken as an indicator of canon.

Which again smacks of a glorious double standard since those same people want to insist RF isn't, even when CoLW's 'woman' is never named.

Well, there's where I bring up "it defies the most simple of explanations" and "possible doesn't equal plausible." XD

The snark in me also wants to say it defies even more absurd examples and trot out "Denzel, the water tower baby" as an example of pure crack that makes more sense than some of the things I've seen put forward.

Were any of us really paying close enough attention to know? But it's got to be big news.

Not until the argument started, no.

"Hate the sin, not the sinner"?

Hate the stupidity, not the stupid?

Again, possible, not plausible. Feels like I'm debating "Rinoa=Ultimecia" again every time I say that. D:

"Sorcerers live a normal human lifespan"
"But if she didn't pass on her powers she couldn't DIE!'
"Succession of witches."
"But if she FROZE HERSELF..."

Oi.

Don't you get that Cloud's sword piercing the floorboards of Aerith's church is a symbol of -- "petting the flowers"? Come on, Vendel! I know you're sharper on the uptake than that!

Cloud's sword that isn't really his in his own mind, of course. "MY SWORD will mark the death of the man who gave his life for mine, who handed it to me to fulfill his legacy. BUT IT'S STILL MINE!"

 

[Vendel]

Who would want it to end?

I feel like Marv in Sin City "I don't know about you but I'm having a ball"

As for Zack, I accept that she got over him and genuinely loved Cloud.

No I was talking about the complete ignoring of Zack. Epically in his connections with Cloud. They hate Zack for butting in on C/A special time in ACC. And they seem to forget he is in the last scene in the church. And he has only vague connections to the two new after credit scenes. THAT is what I mean about connections to Zack.

And I would take some issue with Aeriths feelings for Zack...but meh that is another discussion.

Some still believe that the "koibito" line from Case of Lifestream White is to be taken as an indicator of canon.

Yes well. The ability to comprehend a writing style goes out the window. And they do a complete 180 on koibito when it is used with Aerith. So...yeah.

Don't you get that Cloud's sword piercing the floorboards of Aerith's church is a symbol of -- "petting the flowers"? Come on, Vendel! I know you're sharper on the uptake than that!

This was after he was "kissing the rain" right?

To myself and many other Clerith people on this forum, it looks as though Cloud is relishing every drop of rain on his skin as if it's the touch of Aerith. IMO, it's the most romantic scene in the movie.

<-Overcome by the pure romance of it all

 

[Makoeyes987]

And since I've seen this crop up on a certain LTD forum, I'll just answer it here.

LO was stated in the 20th Anniversary Final Fantasy Story Ultimania, as being outside of the Compilation of FFVII. Meaning it's not really part of continuity.

Is it official? Yes. Was it done by the creators? Yes. Is it part of the continuity of the Compilation of FFVII? No.

So that's where that comes from.

Here's the page itself.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/bb246.jpg

It's best not to even bring it up. Use CC or FFVII proper. LO is just a canon clusterfuck that's not part of the continuity, which makes perfect sense since it contradicts a shit load.

 

[Isabella]

With regards to the LTD, who cares about LO anyway? What does it show that isn't seen in the very canon CC, other than Tifa opening her eyes? The two of them conversing isn't what's so relevant to the LTD, it's Cloud showing affection, and that's in CC.

This was after he was "kissing the rain" right?

It's so funny how different perceptions of the same scene can be. In that scene I saw Cloud looking up at his friends on the Highwind, then closing his eyes and relishing the feeling of peace and relief that the threat -- both of Sephiroth and geostigma -- was over. Never ONCE did I get a Clerith vibe from that scene. Yes, there's always room for more than one interpetation, though I'd argue that my perception is more in line with the theme of the movie itself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Will someone for fucks' sake, tell PYT that Kingdom Hearts is not fucking parallel to FFVII?

Why are you letting people debate an entirely different universe in regards to the continuity of FFVII? Jesus, it's like trying to debate Star Wars canon, and some wacko is frothing at the mouth trying to bring up R2-D2 and C-3P0's appearance on the Muppet Show.

 

[Reith123]

i think cloud would rather be on the bike than on tifa IMO ^.-

 

[Vendel]

i think cloud would rather be on the bike than on tifa IMO ^.-

Leave.

 

[Makoeyes987]

i think cloud would rather be on the bike than on tifa IMO ^.-

....Where'd that come from?

 

[Reith123]

part of a quote above..ugh nvm ill have to re-read the 80 pages i missed while i was away then.