So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[DrakeClawfang]

Well Clerith logic does stick out like a flashing banner to me.

Here let me show you what your statement looked like

But it's not flashing.....

 

[aniron]

I apology if I misunderstand, but girlfriend and marital status should not be taken as clear indicators of affection. You can love someone very deeply and not be married to them. And you can be married to someone and be miserable. Just because Vincent and Lucrecia were never officially together, doesn't mean they didn't truly love each other.

Agreed. I'm not saying that Vince shouldn't have mourned Lucrecia because they were never together as a couple.
I'm saying that it just wouldn't take him so long to get over her, unless he believed in his sins and felt guilty.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Okay, Reunion Files quote. From Nomura:

"I wanted to contrast his [Vincent] voice with Cloud's. I think Vincent and Cloud are really similar to each other, only Vincent is the older, more mature character. That's why I went with Suzuki's ultra low voice."

 

[Isabella]

It seems Cloud has a flirtation M.O.

EXHIBIT A:
Aerith: I learned a lot. The elders taught me many things. About the Cetra...And the Promised Land... I'm...... alone... I'm all alone now...
Cloud: But I'm...... we're here for you, right?
Aerith: I know. I know, but... I am the only...... Cetra.
Cloud: Does that mean we can't help?


EXHIBIT B:
When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”
“It’s… Just the way I am.”
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said, blushing.

 

[aniron]

Bsides Cloud wasn't brooding.
He was happy living with Tifa and the kids.

 

[Vendel]

But it's not flashing.....

Huh...it is on mine. Try restarting your computer.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then he should've tried better!

No really, I don't think Vincent is guilty in any way for what had happened to Lucrecia. He tried to make her see the obvious and it was her choice to go on with the experiment, and she paid dearly for it.

Oh fuck you for that. And here I thought I was gonna have an awesome debate with someone who blamed Vincent. False advertisement

*cries*

I remember he called her beautiful two times in the same monologue.
But yeah... He did love her, that was made pretty much clear.
I just think that it took Vince so long to get over Lucrecia is because of the "sins" he believed he commited.
I can understand if a guy takes his time getting over a woman who actually was his girlfriend or a wife, but in this case I think the whole "guilt issue" did the trick.

Oh now see? That's no fun! WE AGREE!!!! T_T

 

[aniron]

Oh fuck you for that. And here I thought I was gonna have an awesome debate with someone who blamed Vincent. False advertisement

*cries*

Oh now see? That's no fun! WE AGREE!!!! T_T

Tragic!

I can pretend to be Clerith or Vincent's Nemesis though. No prob!

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It seems Cloud has a flirtation M.O.

EXHIBIT A:
Aerith: I learned a lot. The elders taught me many things. About the Cetra...And the Promised Land... I'm...... alone... I'm all alone now...
Cloud: But I'm...... we're here for you, right?
Aerith: I know. I know, but... I am the only...... Cetra.
Cloud: Does that mean we can't help?


EXHIBIT B:
When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”
“It’s… Just the way I am.”
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said, blushing.

Not really.

Having a conversation with a girl isn't flirting. Reassuring a girl: not flirting. Singling yourself out and blushing as you promise to be the one to remind her of who she really is...priceless, erm, THAT'S a love interest.

 

[Isabella]

Silly. He's blushing because he knows he's lying to her. A wise Clerith once told me so.

 

[aniron]

Silly. He's blushing because he knows he's lying to her. A wise Clerith once told me so.

Can't stop... laughing...

Are you for real?

edit; I think SE should actually add characters' thoughts when they're having conversations.

Like:
When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.” [wtf is wrong again?!]
“It’s… Just the way I am.”
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.” [If you decide to take your time getting over your shit, Ill be there to kick yer arse into shape]
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said, blushing. [If I wouldn't be at the field at that time, spiritsmexing Aerith]

See? That's why he blushed. He totally lied, so sho.

 

[minimosey]

1. Get the date with Aerith
2. Act like you're jealous or envious when you hear about Zack.
3. Tell Marlene you hope Aerith likes you

I agree with the last two, since the question was where you "can" show affection, but I don't think getting the date scene in Gold Saucer is an accurate reflection of Cloud's affection. It's the other person who initiates it, and while a lot of the choices you can make throughout the game do reflect Cloud's feelings in some way, others...not so much. For example, the train lockdown affects the dating scene. You want to make it all the way to date Tifa or Barret. It has jack to do with Cloud's affection and a lot more to do with how competent Tifa and Barret see Cloud being.

...also there's that really funny quirk where asking Tifa if she's all right will actually decrease Cloud's chances with her, but telling her they've got to check on Aerith increases them. Basically, whoever you get on the date is not "who Cloud likes the most", it's "who's most willing to take the socially clueless one out for a walk."

As for the date itself showing Cloud's feelings...well, they get signed up for a romantic couple's play. Which explicitly tells Cloud to give a kiss. The gondola scene is not romantic; Cloud is confused over what Aerith's talking about. I like Cloud/Aerith, but the date isn't that romantic even on Aerith's side.

 

[aniron]

I agree with the last two, since the question was where you "can" show affection, but I don't think getting the date scene in Gold Saucer is an accurate reflection of Cloud's affection. It's the other person who initiates it, and while a lot of the choices you can make throughout the game do reflect Cloud's feelings in some way, others...not so much. For example, the train lockdown affects the dating scene. You want to make it all the way to date Tifa or Barret. It has jack to do with Cloud's affection and a lot more to do with how competent Tifa and Barret see Cloud being.

...also there's that really funny quirk where asking Tifa if she's all right will actually decrease Cloud's chances with her, but telling her they've got to check on Aerith increases them. Basically, whoever you get on the date is not "who Cloud likes the most", it's "who's most willing to take the socially clueless one out for a walk."

As for the date itself showing Cloud's feelings...well, they get signed up for a romantic couple's play. Which explicitly tells Cloud to give a kiss. The gondola scene is not romantic; Cloud is confused over what Aerith's talking about. I like Cloud/Aerith, but the date isn't that romantic even on Aerith's side.

I think that both dates were about either Tifa or Aerith trying to get along with Cloud better.
The difference is that Tifa knew the real Cloud, loved him for who he really was and had tried to express it to him.
While Aerith was still clueless about who Cloud really was, his real personality. She could have liked him, but she could never love him for who he really was.
Not to mention that Cloud was dense.

 

[Vendel]

You mean ole' Clotis

You won't even allow for the option for Clerith to exist on Disc 1. You gaiz are just so mean

The Vendel Abides.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

They can't. Aerith is dead.

Sorry guys, looks like Aerith is back in the running:

Spoiler

(from here.)

Tifa saw it too, that's why she was jealous. She didn't really have need to be, but she saw it. I'm not saying it was totally true love or anything, but I think it was developing into that.

It could also be because Tifa saw the Aerith was more forthcoming about her feelings for Cloud than she was. Also, Aerith didn't have any worries about Cloud's strange personality to hold her back the way Tifa did. I'm guessing Tifa was more afraid and jealous that she couldn't approach Cloud the way Aerith did, rather than because she saw Cloud's preference for Aerith?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

It could also be because Tifa saw the Aerith was more forthcoming about her feelings for Cloud than she was.

That reminds me of an interesting observation I made once. During Tifa's date, when she's talking to Cloud on the gondola, she struggles to say something and blurts out "damn, Aerith would be able to say it!". I'm wondering what that may be meant to indicate. That even if you're mean to her, Aerith likes Cloud? Maybe Tifa realizes Aerith likes Cloud...?

BTW - Zombie Aerith, yikes.

 

[Dashell]

Lol you gaiz. I said there are times when you CAN... I repeat CAN show romantic interest in Aerith. Can as in "you have the option of showing Aerith affection."

And you asked for three and I gave you three. I mean we've been over this red herring thing before right? I believe many of us think it's not entirely ridiculous to believe that Cloud was falling for Aerith. The game was set up that way.

It's the stuff that follows FFVII that's supposedly Clerith that bothers me.

 

[aniron]

That reminds me of an interesting observation I made once. During Tifa's date, when she's talking to Cloud on the gondola, she struggles to say something and blurts out "damn, Aerith would be able to say it!". I'm wondering what that may be meant to indicate. That even if you're mean to her, Aerith likes Cloud? Maybe Tifa realizes Aerith likes Cloud...?

BTW - Zombie Aerith, yikes.

Tifa: "Aerith would be able to just come out and say it, probably."

Dunno. I think it could meant that Aerith was an outgoing, extraverted and straightforward girl who wouldn't hesitate much to tell a guy that she likes him.
Confessing her feelings for Cloud may be difficult for Tifa because they're old friends. It's a bit easier with a guy you just met.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I should never venture into the land of retards. Really. Ryu, you have my admiration for your restraint. Honestly, my reaction to everything I just read over there was "Are you fucking retarded?"... There is no way I could possibly debate there.

My endless patience with the frustrating has been noted before. It is because my temper typically flares and retracts very quickly.

A genuine question, because my memory may be a bit hazy: When do Cloud and Aerith touch each other in ACC that isn't a) in Cloud's head; b) in the Lifestream; or c) in a big old mako fireball? I often see it claimed that they can physically touch each other in the "normal" world, but I honestly can't recall the instance.

There is no intance which is not the 'whitespace' or heavily tinged with it, in which Aerith interacts with the living physically.
Even at the end, when she is with the two children at the door, the world outside the door is entirely white, and is a return to the realm of the beyond.

Bahamut Shin fight.

Just sayin'....

Heavy Mako area, and the scene actually fades to white and the roar recedes right before her arm appears.

It really did seem like the game was going in that direction. Maybe it was done to make Aerith's death more tragic, but really there are so many times you can show romantic affection toward Aerith. The simple fact that Aerith says Cloud was her boyfriend says to me that at some point he did show that he was interested in her romantically. If all of their intereations were platonic, the thought shouldn't even enter her mind.

It could have been, and I say this due to the very confused nature of Cloud's identity- mixed signals. The Zacky part with the help of Jenova (will attack to control Cloud's Conscious mind) was throwing off signals that Cloud wasn't aware were there.

Tifa saw it too, that's why she was jealous. She didn't really have need to be, but she saw it. I'm not saying it was totally true love or anything, but I think it was developing into that.

I think she was getting jealous because Aerith could forthrightly approach Cloud which she was too scared to do.

Plus, Aerith's ribbon fell from her hair. This means that they were desired lovers for one another and

ACK hey I'm kidding

Yeah, none of that.

I do agree but I think there is more to it than just this. There's been a history of lies and deceit. However I've found the majority of lies to come from one person specifically and the others just hear what they want to believe and repeat it. I won't say who, they know who they are.

But just because of this one liar, I don't think the entire forum should get as much crap as it does. I know I've been frustrated with Clerith arguments, but I attack the arguments, not the person who made them.

The problem is, the liar has been exposed SEVERAL TIMES, so some of the people are willingly drinking the koolaid.

Well, of course I'm sure others will say it isn't romantic, but there *is* one, sort of.

Aerith: I learned a lot. The elders taught me many things. About the Cetra...And the Promised Land... I'm...... alone... I'm all alone now...
Cloud: But I'm...... we're here for you, right?
Aerith: I know. I know, but... I am the only...... Cetra.
Cloud: Does that mean we can't help?

Back to the Vincent thing, remember the creators mention they envision Vincent as an older, more mature Cloud. Take from that what you will. The key difference is that Vincent spent thirty years brooding when he lost the woman he loved, Cloud spent two.

Eh, that's more about Aerith's coming to terms with her being the last Cetra, and realizing she's all alone, and Cloud not getting that than anything really romantic. If there is supposed to be a romantic undertext, that's certainly the gamma text after two others.

That reminds me of an interesting observation I made once. During Tifa's date, when she's talking to Cloud on the gondola, she struggles to say something and blurts out "damn, Aerith would be able to say it!". I'm wondering what that may be meant to indicate. That even if you're mean to her, Aerith likes Cloud? Maybe Tifa realizes Aerith likes Cloud...?

BTW - Zombie Aerith, yikes.

I think she's just angry at herself because 'Aerith could come out and say it, why can't I be that forthright?'

It's a 'She'd be able? Why can't I just SAY IT?'

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Lol you gaiz. I said there are times when you CAN... I repeat CAN show romantic interest in Aerith. Can as in "you have the option of showing Aerith affection."

And you asked for three and I gave you three. I mean we've been over this red herring thing before right? I believe many of us think it's not entirely ridiculous to believe that Cloud was falling for Aerith. The game was set up that way.

It's the stuff that follows FFVII that's supposedly Clerith that bothers me.

Perhaps I should have been more specific and singled out CLOUD as he is the character in question.

Yes "You" the player can show affection toward Aerith via Cloud. But we've already established player options as limited in the overall scope of the story and affections. There are scenes in that game that are independent of player action that reveal things--such as Cloud saying that he knows he and Tifa have unspoken things between them--before the big reveal in the Lifestream.

You wanna know why most people who support Cloti as the compilation couple don't spout on and on about the kissing on "the date" or Cloud giving her a flower at the beginning? Because those are player controlled.

And yes, the red herring thing has been discussed. You CAN also flirt back at Mukki, you CAN get a kiss from Yuffie, and you CAN be a complete douche to everyone in-game.

What you CAN'T do is show me where Cloud independently shows romantic anything. Drake touched on the only scene I can think of that can be misconstrued on it's own without having to be twisted.

But you gave me 3 examples, 1 which is completely invalid, but 2 of where you can show something other than friendship via player choice, so I'll give you a C+.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

There is no intance which is not the 'whitespace' or heavily tinged with it, in which Aerith interacts with the living physically.
Even at the end, when she is with the two children at the door, the world outside the door is entirely white, and is a return to the realm of the beyond.

Heavy Mako area, and the scene actually fades to white and the roar recedes right before her arm appears.

Oh, I completely agree that Aerith can't touch Cloud physically and that she only does it in the white space. Bahamut Shin is the counter I always get to that though. **shrug** To which I never actually argued back that there was whitespace, but instead that she wasn't corporeal to begin with, so why would she be there...

Your whitespace argument is more succinct though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I never really bothered to dispute the Bahamut Sin instance since the 10th AU said Aerith was "the final push" in the Relay Battle, and since her presence produced some kind of physical effect. While the white space might indicate that her actual appearance was in Cloud's mind -- and we do know from the flower field appearance that she can touch him there -- there's also her last appearance at the end, where the kids see her.

So it's possible that she can physically manifest.

But I also don't see it as a big deal for the following reasons:

The Playback section for AC in the 10th AU said she and Zack were going back where they belonged -- "the flow of life" -- while Cloud would remain where he belonged (the living world). So it doesn't sound like they'll be meeting up in the flower fields.

As well, Cloud could as easily choose not to date Aerith's ghost as he could choose not to date the living Tifa.

For that matter, if he did choose to be single, a single Cloud is not equivalent to Clerith. I was told this recently, but it's not accurate for the reason mentioned above.

 

[Eerie]

Speaking of what ifs, I'm wondering why people would think that Aerith would have won Cloud's heart, had she lived.

If you think about this, there's the shadow of Zack between them - he's his living legacy, he knows how much he loved her and how he died while saving his arse, right? And she still wasn't over him either, overlapping Zack and Cloud image for a good deal of the time they were together. She'd had to overcome that totally before starting anything.

Not only that, but there are also the strong feelings for Tifa resurfacing after the Lifestream scene, the one where Aerith could not have helped, had she been alive. Cloud has always loved Tifa deeply, so much that it did influence his whole life - his choices to become a soldier, a hero he couldn't be while he was just a kid in Nibelheim. It even influenced the fake personality he built, just because he met up with her first at the train station.
He forgot them during Disc One, but they were definitely back on track after the Lifestream scene - heck, it's also interesting that even the fake!Cloud claims that only her actions count [I think hito mentioned it should translate as action, not opinion? I can't remember well, sorry] when he's going crazy.

Last, about the date, it's interesting that Tifa thinks that if it was Aerith, she could be more honest and forward - but if you get Aerith's date, it's very different. It's also interesting that Cloud was willing to listen to Tifa while he didn't get what was Aerith telling him... XD

I still rest my case that during the first disc, Cloud was pretty much dense, and wouldn't be able to tell one's feelings if they kicked him in the arse. Players options give you that, the possibility to colour 'romantically' the scenes, but they never interfer with the ending anyway. Cloud still loves Tifa and lives with her, and still holds a special place in his heart for Aerith. [yes, I don't like Aerith and I hate Clerith XD].

 

[Vendel]

But I also don't see it as a big deal for the following reasons:

The Playback section for AC in the 10th AU said she and Zack were going back where they belonged -- "the flow of life" -- while Cloud would remain where he belonged (the living world). So it doesn't sound like they'll be meeting up in the flower fields.

Well here is the fun part. They believe that Aerith is literally living inside Clouds body. They even had theories about his Mako enhanced body being able to house her instead of the lifestream.

So the Clerith version of events is "Aerith and Zack go back to where they belong. Long enough for Aerith to dump Zack off and go infest Cloud and met in flower fields etc etc".

You see that is why Cloud isn't alone anymore. And that is why he doesn't have to live in the church. Because Aerith is always with him. LITERALLY.

Speaking of what ifs, I'm wondering why people would think that Aerith would have won Cloud's heart, had she lived.

Didn't that interview say something about Aerith's burden or some such?

 

[Eerie]

Wasn't that a reference to her role as the last Cetra? Yeah, it might have been another obstacle.

If you look at everything that is given to us, in the end, the story was made so Cloud and Tifa would end up together, so it'd be very hard for another to jump between the two ~___~ Even if Tifa's jealous, even if Aerith loves Cloud, the puzzle simply doesn't match ~__~