So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

Who said that it was just about Aerith and Tifa in the first place? Don't forget that the rest of the AVALANCHE and Zack has been there too. And Cloud isn't alone because he finally put his guilt to rest and let himself be surrounded by his family and friends again.

Cloud says, "I'm not alone, not anymore." which clearly indicates that he was always feeling alone up until that moment. The only thing that changed between the beginning of ACC and the end is that he knows that Aerith is with him.

The promise (Cloud and Tifa's that is, which is ingraved in his heart) is however not optional and not up to the player.

The promise is engraved where as Aerith herself is engraved. It never said that Tifa herself is in his heart, just his promise. (sorry I really don't know what to say to this)

How many people out there go to the flower fields to meet dead people?

The last call in Reminiscence only has Cloud talking. He's stopped by the flower field. It's as if someone is listening to the call. Who else can it be but Aerith? She was already shown in the flower field... so there isn't anyone else it can be.

Wow!

Barret, Jesse, Biggs and Wedge all lived together in Seventh Heaven and none of them were romantically involved.

Maybe because neither of them had been stated as Tifa's romantic interest.

But that just shows Tifa's feelings, how does that show us how Cloud feels?

Maybe you should just provide the quote from the creators saying that Cloud and Tifa live together platonicaly. Because otherwise this statement sounds ridiculous.

I don't need a quote from them. There isn't any evidence that they are living together romantically so why should we assume that?

Proofz, plz!

a. Aerith really loved the guy she didn't even know.
b. Aerith is over the guy she loved for seven years.

Why would she call Cloud her sweetheart if it wasn't true? Further more it's been stated that Zack is always with Aerith. If he's always with her yet she still calls Cloud her sweetheart, to me that makes it sound like she's completely over her.

Cloud's. Guilt. For. Aerith's. Death.

But this is after he got over his guilt. So why is Aerith still there? Obviously, she's waiting for something.

The guy's name isn't Aerith. It's Benny.

8. Aerith and Zack are now a couple because they were reunited in the Lifestream.
~ False.

Sure it is. Aerith and Zack have always been a couple, since they first met.

Then why does she call Cloud her sweetheart in Case of Lifestream White? Why does she go on a date with Cloud? Why help Cloud in Advent Children at all? And why wait for him at the end of the movie if it's Zack she wants?

I suppose it's not enough that they:

a. Always together in each scene they appear.
b. Have a reference to their promise.

A. Not true, in the end of the game Cloud is off riding his bike somewhere. If you ask me this shows he's not at home a lot.
B. So? Aerith gets the same reference, does she not?

In DC you actually see Cloud smiling while he talks with Tifa.

He smiles at the end of ACC at Aerith. And it's definitely his sweetest smile.

Didn't he say that she lives inside her fiends in a similiar way grandmothers live inside their grandchildren?...

He said that Cloud can see Aerith because her consciousness lives on inside of him.

Or that he had put his guilt for Aerith and Zack's deaths to rest.

It's been stated that his Promised Land is the church. What better way to end the movie than to show is Promised Land?

Cos it could totally be Barret! Or Rufus. I'm a Rufus/Tifa shipper and I now have proofz, yay.

Johnny and Rude have both shown romantic interest in Tifa, why not them?

So you didn't even read Crisis Core Keywords Collection? Read it. Then revise the faqs.

It says they live together, not that they're involved.

True, their bodies are not in Yin Yang position. This alone however doest not mean that the scene lacks romantic undertones.
Cloud and Tifa are lying on the flowerbed, facing each other, sublty touching each other's hands. It's not Yin Yang, but there's still certain symmetry and a hint.

And it's hinted that Aerith is there too. Why else would they heal and why else would they show water? Aerith's presence is represented by water in the movie. She's clearly there with them.

Well, since they're not relatives by blood, it's only natural to call them "family of friends".

That would make couples who adopt not real families as well.

SE calls them "the family of four", o proofz or it didn't happen.

Then why did Marlene have to invite Cloud into the family? Why did Tifa hesitate?

The promise reference = romantic.

When was this in ACC? (No really I honestly don't remember)

Funny, because Aerith also takes Kadaj's hand, yet no one considers that to be proof of a romance between them.

Exactly, so why should Cloud taking Tifa in his arms be romantic?

It is. Beacuse Cloud's UP says that he was hapy living with his family.

It's never shown that Cloud is happy. He goes to the church a lot, closes himself off and when he leaves he goes to live in the church. Doesn't sound too happy to me.
----------------------

Heh just giving you the counter arguments.
That was fun we should do more.

Naru, anyone?
Wacdonalds?

Naru was doing all right until she said that her friends knew that Cloud had been bullied. What part of Cloud got into fights did she not get?

 

[Raquelborn]

In DC you actually see Cloud smiling while he talks with Tifa.

He wasn't talking to Tifa. He was calling back to the WRO, just as she was.

Cloud: "Sorry about the wait."
Tifa: "Everything's clear over here!"

That is not a very coherent conversation.

True, their bodies are not in Yin Yang position. This alone however doest not mean that the scene lacks romantic undertones.
Cloud and Tifa are lying on the flowerbed, facing each other, sublty touching each other's hands. It's not Yin Yang, but there's still certain symmetry and a hint.

Are you sure?

Tifa's fingertips maybe touching Cloud's forearm and vice versa but that's as much contact as I can see in that scene.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Cloud says, "I'm not alone, not anymore." which clearly indicates that he was always feeling alone up until that moment. The only thing that changed between the beginning of ACC and the end is that he knows that Aerith is with him.

And uh, the lack of Geostigma and the fact he just killed Sephiroth again. And no one died this time!

The last call in Reminiscence only has Cloud talking. He's stopped by the flower field. It's as if someone is listening to the call. Who else can it be but Aerith? She was already shown in the flower field... so there isn't anyone else it can be.

What. Okay, I hate to say this, but every field he drives by looks vaguely like Aerith's. She could be in that film, or she could be two miles away. And since the script says he doesn't see her, I'm inclined to believe it.

Barret, Jesse, Biggs and Wedge all lived together in Seventh Heaven and none of them were romantically involved.

Jesse, Biggs, Wedge and Barret were not in a possible relationship and were not all raising a family together.

But that just shows Tifa's feelings, how does that show us how Cloud feels?

Cause, uh, a creator said it's one of her traits to be someone's lover. Yeah, it isn't shown who it is, but who does she act like a lover to most in the movie? I know it isn't Johnny.

I don't need a quote from them. There isn't any evidence that they are living together romantically so why should we assume that?

They expressed mutual feelings when Cloud was saying he still has his childhood crush on her, Tifa acts as someone's lover, they're raising a family together, they're still living together after a rough patch in AC, Nojima discusses them and views on love and marriage in the same breath... I mean really, I don't think Zidane and Garnet needed that much evidence to prove they were the final couple and not Zidane and Eiko.

Why would she call Cloud her sweetheart if it wasn't true? Further more it's been stated that Zack is always with Aerith. If he's always with her yet she still calls Cloud her sweetheart, to me that makes it sound like she's completely over her.

Over him, unless Zack is a girl now. She could be assuming more about her relationship with Cloud than what there actually is, since, let's face it, she's had a hard enough time having a 'normal' relationship in the first place.

But this is after he got over his guilt. So why is Aerith still there? Obviously, she's waiting for something.

Cloud cannot see her, likely because he no longer has all of the issues he had at the beginning of the movie.

Then why does she call Cloud her sweetheart in Case of Lifestream White? Why does she go on a date with Cloud? Why help Cloud in Advent Children at all? And why wait for him at the end of the movie if it's Zack she wants?

Because she cares for him? She wants to see him better, and he's a symbol of things important to her. Of course she would want him to get better and stop waiting around to die.

A. Not true, in the end of the game Cloud is off riding his bike somewhere. If you ask me this shows he's not at home a lot.
B. So? Aerith gets the same reference, does she not?

A. Reminiscence shows he's going back home.
B. As a direct result of them moving in together because of their mutual feelings, they are still living together.

He smiles at the end of ACC at Aerith. And it's definitely his sweetest smile.

He smiles for himself, because his life no longer sucks as he once thought it did.

He said that Cloud can see Aerith because her consciousness lives on inside of him.

Just like grandparents live on in their grandchildren. Really romantic thar.

It's been stated that his Promised Land is the church. What better way to end the movie than to show is Promised Land?

Surrounded by his friends and family.

Johnny and Rude have both shown romantic interest in Tifa, why not them?

Because a) Johnny ain't in the movie and b) Rude shows no romantic inclination or has romantic interactions with Tifa.

It says they live together, not that they're involved.

As a direct result of sharing mutual feelings for one another.

And it's hinted that Aerith is there too. Why else would they heal and why else would they show water? Aerith's presence is represented by water in the movie. She's clearly there with them.

But the quote does not say "Aerith healed them", it says they healed on their own. So, they healed on their own.


uggghh I'm bored, I wish SI would start already.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Are you sure?

Tifa's fingertips maybe touching Cloud's forearm and vice versa but that's as much contact as I can see in that scene.

Considering HOW Cloud was holding Tifa when they went down, that particular body placement is impossible, and the creators know this. However, Tifa and Cloud are laid out in a very specific manner--and no, it's not yin-yang, but it is intentional. Face to face and touching.

That scene--basically in Cloud's head as it is--is completely unnecessary EXCEPT for to show us the connection between Cloud and Tifa. To see Clerith's try and refute that is silly.

 

[Dashell]

And uh, the lack of Geostigma and the fact he just killed Sephiroth again. And no one died this time!

Exactly, all his friends survived. He has everyone he had before, so why does he say he isn't alone? He was feeling alone before, and now he has Aerith, simple.

What. Okay, I hate to say this, but every field he drives by looks vaguely like Aerith's. She could be in that film, or she could be two miles away. And since the script says he doesn't see her, I'm inclined to believe it.

So Cloud stopped by the flower fields for what reason? It seems unlikely that he would go all that way just to pick flowers. It's much more likely that he went there to see Aerith.

Jesse, Biggs, Wedge and Barret were not in a possible relationship and were not all raising a family together.

Tifa and Barret were living together and raising Marlene and it wasn't romantic.

Cause, uh, a creator said it's one of her traits to be someone's lover. Yeah, it isn't shown who it is, but who does she act like a lover to most in the movie? I know it isn't Johnny.

So now it is traits when before it was for sure she was someone's lover?

They expressed mutual feelings when Cloud was saying he still has his childhood crush on her,

It never said mutual. Just that they expressed their feelings.

Tifa acts as someone's lover,

And she ACTS as someone's lover, she's like a lover, not that she is one.

they're raising a family together,

Barret and Tifa were raising Marlene together and that wasn't romantic.

they're still living together after a rough patch in AC,

And where is Cloud at the end of DoC? Driving around on his motorcycle. Also he's driving around at the end of ACC and where is he driving? To a place that at least reminds him of Aerith. If they wanted to show a Cloti ending, why not show Cloud returning to 7th heaven and running into her arms?

Nojima discusses them and views on love and marriage in the same breath...

And the first statement is that the premise of Case of Tifa was about their problems. Which makes more sense?


[Case of Tifa] ... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. Because of these problems, I think it's obvious that Cloud and Tifa love one another and should get married (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs). ~did Nojima mean this?

[Case of Tifa] ... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. Because of these problems, I think it would be a mistake for Cloud and Tifa to get involved in a love relationship or marriage (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs). ~or did Nojima mean this?

Cloud cannot see her, likely because he no longer has all of the issues he had at the beginning of the movie.

Then how does he see her at the end of the movie? His guilt is resolved then, isn't it?

Because she cares for him? She wants to see him better, and he's a symbol of things important to her. Of course she would want him to get better and stop waiting around to die.

But why bother when it's really Zack she wants if she ONLY love Cloud for Zack and so on?

A. Reminiscence shows he's going back home.
B. As a direct result of them moving in together because of their mutual feelings, they are still living together.

A. But how often is he there really?
B. Again mutual was not used.

Surrounded by his friends and family.

It says the place, not the people. It specifically says place.

Because a) Johnny ain't in the movie and b) Rude shows no romantic inclination or has romantic interactions with Tifa.

But they did have feelings for her in the past and that could be what the phrase is referring to. The line, "tatakatte kita senyuu." (戦ってきた戦&#21451 The word "te kita" indicates the beginning of some process or continuation of some action up to a certain point of time. Obviously Tifa didn't start fighting by Cloud's side in AC/C, she was doing so from FFVII and on so it's safe to say that line could be refering to Rude and Johnny in the past or even Cloud's crush on her as a child.

As a direct result of sharing mutual feelings for one another.

Once again the word mutual was NOT used.

But the quote does not say "Aerith healed them", it says they healed on their own. So, they healed on their own.

They STILL showed the water and that still means she was present even if you couldn't see her.

----------------------------

... I think I make a better Clerith than Cloti ... scary

 

[Ryushikaze]

Your line about 'it still continuing' actually shoots your clerithdom in the foot. If it's relevant to AC/C, and why else would it be in RF in the present tense, it means Cloud, who belongs with Tifa. And it means she was and still continues to be his lover.

QED.

And mutual and words meaning mutual have been used.

 

[Dashell]

Your line about 'it still continuing' actually shoots your clerithdom in the foot. If it's relevant to AC/C, and why else would it be in RF in the present tense, it means Cloud, who belongs with Tifa. And it means she was and still continues to be his lover.

That's ONLY if the quote applies to Cloud, it could be many other people as I said and... I'm so LTDed out right now

 

[aniron]

He wasn't talking to Tifa. He was calling back to the WRO, just as she was.

Cloud: "Sorry about the wait."
Tifa: "Everything's clear over here!"

That is not a very coherent conversation.

Yes, he was.
As far as I remember, the direct translation of Cloud's line is: "I'm being late again", which is a clear reference to their promise.
Then he smiles and we see Tifa kicking arse and most definitely not in need of saving.

Are you sure?

Tifa's fingertips maybe touching Cloud's forearm and vice versa but that's as much contact as I can see in that scene.

I've read an interview where either Nojima or Nomura had said that since the movie was made by Japanese people, all the romance hints are very subtle.
I believe it was the same interview where they also comment about Cloud's facial expressions receiving special attention.

And which scene is supposed to be more romantic?
Cloud and Tifa laying face to face and touching each other's hands?
Or Cloud and Aerith standing back to back and not touching?...

 

[Dashell]

I've read an interview where either Nojima or Nomura had said that since the movie was made by Japanese people, all the romance hints are very subtle.
I believe it was the same interview where they also comment about Cloud's facial expressions receiving special attention.

Let's not do this. Then we're going to have to start talking about ribbons and umbrellas and the like.

 

[Celes Chere]

and umbrellas

Never got why that was Clerith.

 

[Dashell]

Never got why that was Clerith.

Two people standing under an umbrella in Japan can mean they're a couple. One of Aerith's weapon's in FFVII is an umbrella.

 

[aniron]

No, no. No umbrellas.
But Cloud's facial expressions is actually a pretty interesting subject.

 

[Shadowfox]

Two people standing under an umbrella in Japan can mean they're a couple. One of Aerith's weapon's in FFVII is an umbrella.

What does Japan say about umbrellas which are used to bash people and other things with?

 

[Raquelborn]

Yes, he was.
As far as I remember, the direct translation of Cloud's line is: "I'm being late again", which is a clear reference to their promise.
Then he smiles and we see Tifa kicking arse and most definitely not in need of saving.

Have you played the game? For those who haven't seen it or need a refresh, the cutscene is here at 7:12:

Although it's still a reference to the promise regardless(IMO), they are calling back to the WRO. They are not calling each other. For one thing, when Tifa picks up the phone she speaks straight into it like she's reporting back and it just doesn't fit with Cloud supposedly calling and talking to her in the previous shot.

I've read an interview where either Nojima or Nomura had said that since the movie was made by Japanese people, all the romance hints are very subtle.
I believe it was the same interview where they also comment about Cloud's facial expressions receiving special attention.

And which scene is supposed to be more romantic?
Cloud and Tifa laying face to face and touching each other's hands?
Or Cloud and Aerith standing back to back and not touching?...

Why are you arguing with me like I'm proposing Clerith?

I'm just pointing out that their hands are not touching.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's ONLY if the quote applies to Cloud, it could be many other people as I said and... I'm so LTDed out right now

No. No it could NOT be 'many other people.' There's only one goddamn fucking rational choice for someone to be Tifa's once and current lover, or person for whom she is the once and current beloved- either fucking one, since I don't really care which one you want to use- since there's only one goddamn man of relationship age with any possible interested to whom Tifa is relevant during AC/C, with whom her relationship is even considered important and that male is CLOUD. Johnny's got no relevance to AC/C in the slightest, and Rude is barely more so, and certainly the man has no more personal relevance to Tifa than Rufus or Elena.
Let me put it this way- why the hell tell us Rude or Johnny still have a crush on Tifa? It's completely and utterly irrelevant. The other statements are relevant to people Tifa, y'know, has relationships with, like the children to whom she is like a mother, and AVALANCHE, to whom she is an ally in battle.
So why the hell would the man to whom she is a lover/beloved be someone random? Why would it not be the person with whom she lives, with whom she has mutual feelings? Whose heart opened only to her, etc?

Let's not do this. Then we're going to have to start talking about ribbons and umbrellas and the like.

Both of which only apply when they are explicitly used with two people. One person under an umbrella and one person with a Ribbon mean JACK SHIT.

What does Japan say about umbrellas which are used to bash people and other things with?

Ryouga says they mean jack shit with relationships.

 

[aniron]

Have you played the game?

I have.

Although it's still a reference to the promise regardless(IMO), they are calling back to the WRO. They are not calling each other. For one thing, when Tifa picks up the phone she speaks straight into it like she's reporting back and it just doesn't fit with Cloud supposedly calling and talking to her in the previous shot.

Maybe they just left each other voice messages.
Why would they call at WRO if they've already been shown working as a team. It's more logical to assume that they were calling each other.

Why are you arguing with me like I'm proposing Clerith?

Not arguing, just asking.

I'm just pointing out that their hands are not touching.

Well, you're wrong. Because their hands are definitely touching.

 

[Fighter]

They are calling each other.

 

[Dashell]

Let me put it this way- why the hell tell us Rude or Johnny still have a crush on Tifa? It's completely and utterly irrelevant. The other statements are relevant to people Tifa, y'know, has relationships with, like the children to whom she is like a mother, and AVALANCHE, to whom she is an ally in battle.

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a bunch of random men who arne't even in the movie have a crush on her, and she's an ally in battle!"

 

[aniron]

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a bunch of random men who arne't even in the movie have a crush on her, and she's an ally in battle!"

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, an ally and either Rude, Johnny or Barret's girlfriend. Decide for yourself from the hints in ze movie!"

 

[Dashell]

"but totally not Cloud because his name isn't anywhere on the page."

 

[aniron]

Cloud? Cloud doesn't have anything to do with Tifa's private life.
They just live under the same roof, raise two children together and she randomly asks him if he loves her while he sleeps.

It's called being friends, you know.

 

[Vendel]

Cloud? Cloud doesn't have anything to do with Tifa's private life.
They just live under the same roof, raise two children together and she randomly asks him if he loves her while he sleeps.

It's called being friends, you know?

Collage roommates do that sort of thing all the time.

In fact it is so frequent when you see two people living together and raising children you simply cannot assume they are in a relationship.

That's crazy talk.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Considering Cloud's emotional securities are and have been for quite a while now the sole thread upon which the fate of the entire Planet is tangling I think a definite argument can be made for Tifa being pretty irresponsible for not giving it away like candy.

Before going any further in catching up on the past few days of this thread, I want to make sure I take this moment to say that this comment is the best the LTD -- nay, the fandom itself -- has received. As absurd as it would sound if said with sincerity, I couldn't disagree in the slightest.

I think that argument could -- and should -- actually be extended to the real world. Can anyone think of a legitimate-sounding reason why the U.S. armed forces aren't provided an outlet for such primary needs? And why they're, indeed, not supposed to do anything on their own to take care of them?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

umbrellas and the like.

AIAI GASA DESU~

Well, you're wrong. Because their hands are definitely touching.

Perhaps if you live in crazy cloti land. But their hands? Ain't touching. Hell, Tifa's right hand is at least a foot away from Cloud. Just sayin'.

 

[aniron]

Perhaps if you live in crazy cloti land. But their hands? Ain't touching. Hell, Tifa's right hand is at least a foot away from Cloud. Just sayin'.

Okay. Cloud's left hand touching Tifa's right forearm and Tifa's left hand touching Cloud's right upper arm.

I always forget about anatomical correctness.