So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Vendel]

Why? She always says this, but I'm still waiting for an explanation.
I could easily describe my sister as a wife, a mother and a sister. It doesn't negate any of those roles if I don't name names. So why is it very significant? Some mysterious Japanese grammatical rule?

 

[aniron]

Oh holy shit.....

Since Aerith's spirit is part of the Lifestream, then the place where Cloud awakens is essentially in the Lifestream with Aerith.

This freaks me out.

 

[Isabella]

This freaks me out.

Yeah, that is some serious twisting. And I guess the rest of that paragraph, about his family and friends, where he belongs, Aerith and Zack going back where they belong, etc., is just space-filler?

 

[aniron]

Yeah, that is some serious twisting. And I guess the rest of that paragraph, about his family and friends, where he belongs, Aerith and Zack going back where they belong, etc., is just space-filler?

Not only that... it's just freaky how they make Aerith some trancedental existance that lives in the rain, pool water and inside Cloud's mind.

 

[Dashell]

..

Lop?

and lulz new? They've been on the site for a while. Vendel needs to catch up

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

... how they make Aerith some trancedental existence that lives in the rain, pool water and inside Cloud's mind.

Whoever called her a parasite is right - she's beginning to sound more and more like a blood fluke or something.

I love this part:

The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud. ~Cloud's Character Profile, 10th Anniversary Ultimania

Answer: There's actually little indication in the novella Case of Tifa that Cloud was happy living with Tifa and the children.

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't read it for myself.

 

[Dashell]

So

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/search?stype=1&ei=UTF-8&dtype=2&p=こいびと
says koibito can be one sided... thoughts?

 

[Vendel]

So

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/search?stype=1&ei=UTF-8&dtype=2&p=こいびと
says koibito can be one sided... thoughts?

Yes and? I think we have been saying that for awhile now. That is the difference between word of God and a characters PoV.

 

[Dashell]

I was just trying to change the subject

 

[Vendel]

I was just trying to change the subject

Yes well things like "Clouds promised land is the pool of water in the fucking church" are rather hard to not to cry tears of blood over ignore.

 

[Dashell]

meh, honestly I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half the higher ups there one day ran out and yelled "Gotcha, suckers!" and then ran off never to be seen again.

 

[Vendel]

meh, honestly I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half the higher ups thereone day ran out and yelled "Gotcha, suckers!" and then ran off never to be seen again.

No...more like "cocaine is a hell of a drug" and then disappear and never mention the land of pink or clerith again.

And BTW. I seem to remember some snarky comments about how we said they would say the pool of water in the church is his promised land. I know I said it. Others probably did as well. I did not honestly believe they would make it "clerith canon".

 

[Dashell]

Way to give them ideas Vendel
but yeah "realizes where he's meant to live.".. in the Church?... I mean... I don't... I don't even.. yeah

 

[Fairheartstrife]

The church and pool of water being Cloud's promised land is completely retarded. Not only on the premise--and the actual WORDS of that scene--but on the simple fact that Cloud just LEFT Aerith. If he was in his "Promised Land" with her, then where he awakens can't be "Aerith: his Promised Land". I mean WTF?!?

Pinker theories do one thing constantly: They completely bastardize not only the characters but of the creators themselves. I mean the entire staff would have to be absolute fucking assholes to have their characters' actions show one thing, but 'mean' another, while simultaneously bitch-slapping their main heroine. (And suck it, folks, Aerith is not the main heroine of FFVII--she's just the one unlucky enough to bite it.)

 

[Fighter]

The church and pool of water being Cloud's promised land is completely retarded. Not only on the premise--and the actual WORDS of that scene--but on the simple fact that Cloud just LEFT Aerith. If he was in his "Promised Land" with her, then where he awakens can't be "Aerith: his Promised Land". I mean WTF?!?

They bastardize the entire point of the film to make any of it work. The movie is about letting go and moving on. Cloud is letting go of Aerith and Zack and even if we consider any of this had ever been about love, in the end they are still saying goodbye, not reuniting to stroll flower fields for all eternity.

 

[aniron]

The church being Cloud's Promised Land isn't such a retarded idea, I think.
After defeating Sephiroth and his remnats, and nearly dying in the process, he awakes in the pool of curing water in Aerith's church... This is where Cloud finally reunites with his family and friends, cures Denzel, and finally receives his redemption for what happened to Aerith and Zack. This is where his new life begins, free of guilt and fear.
If you'll toss aside Clerith's crazy ideas, it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Though I still think that the Promised Land is more of a metaphysical nature.

 

[Tennyo]

That's a very nice way to put it, aniron.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The church itself is undoubtedly his Promised Land. The 10th AU identifies it as such.

The topic in question was whether the church or the pool of water in the church was his Promised La -- and, you know what, I'm not going to dignify the topic with an address any further. I've got more fruitful pursuits to consider, like rummaging through Midgar's garbage to find Zack's original ribbon that Aerith threw out.

 

[Eerie]

*points at the poll* There were dupes voting for CloTi too? *finds this hilarious XD*

Anyway, I don't think the Promise Land is a place per se. As anieron said, it's more metaphysical: at the end of FF7, Cloud points that maybe they'll meet up with [Aerith, their dear ones] in the Promise Land. I think the idea is that the Promise Land is a place where you can find your dear ones, not so much the idea of a "land" in itself.

Where does Cloud awake in AC/C? His family, and his friends. This is what brings him peace, because he is not alone anymore [he finally reckon this, after allowing himself to be forgiven], and because his dear ones are with him, this is his Promise Land. The church in itself is rather anecdotal, if you want to go that way. The church is only the place where Aerith called everyone, to meet up with Cloud and heal the kids; but those who are in represent his own piece of paradise.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's generally how Promised Lands work -- the place itself has no relevance minus something that's found there. For Sephiroth and Shin-Ra, the Northern Crater was said to be the Promised Land. In both cases, because of the energy there.

 

[Ryushikaze]

AH! New essays. Let us take a look shall we?

-snip-

If Tifa didn't know him then how did she know that he wasn't himself the entire first disk? Why did it take Aerith a couple of weeks to figure out he wasn't her dead boyfriend? Or did she use her materia Jesus powers?

Remember, the guiding rule of canon for them isn't 'is it in the game' or 'is it reasonable' but 'does it help the cause.'

So Cloud was not happy because you say so?

Yes, that is exactly their argument. They don't think- or rather, don't want to think- Cloud was happy with Tifa, so there's no way he was happy, despite the U10 saying he was and saying that said happiness made him feel his guilt more, and ramped up his worry.

I think they missed SOMEthing. Then again that isn't as much of a feat as making Zack disappear from the end of ACC.

They missed more than 'some', they also missed the entire quote about 'She understands Cloud all too well and supposrts the mentally week side of him.'
But then again, dishonest quote mining is nothing new.

Oh holy shit.....

What? They're ignoring logic, the context of the quote, the context of the scene, the theme of the movie, I mean, this is just par for the course as far as I'm concerned.

meh, honestly I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half the higher ups there one day ran out and yelled "Gotcha, suckers!" and then ran off never to be seen again.

The people perpetuating this stuff aren't good enough liars to pull such a prank.

No...more like "cocaine is a hell of a drug" and then disappear and never mention the land of pink or clerith again.

I always imagine it more like Jonestown, myself.

And BTW. I seem to remember some snarky comments about how we said they would say the pool of water in the church is his promised land. I know I said it. Others probably did as well. I did not honestly believe they would make it "clerith canon".

I knew they would.

The church being Cloud's Promised Land isn't such a retarded idea, I think.
After defeating Sephiroth and his remnats, and nearly dying in the process, he awakes in the pool of curing water in Aerith's church... This is where Cloud finally reunites with his family and friends, cures Denzel, and finally receives his redemption for what happened to Aerith and Zack. This is where his new life begins, free of guilt and fear.
If you'll toss aside Clerith's crazy ideas, it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Though I still think that the Promised Land is more of a metaphysical nature.

The church is only the promised land in that his family is there and he's free of guilt. Any other place could also be his promised land. As you said, it's metaphyical, not geographical.

The church itself is undoubtedly his Promised Land. The 10th AU identifies it as such.

Which is the 10th AU? Do we count all cameos? Including oblique references? We might get ten AU appearances from that. I think the 10th is Gilgamesh in XII, though. And I wouldn't trust Gilgamesh's opinion on that, really.

Yes, I know AU means Anniversary Ultimania, but I couldn't help but sieze on the joke.

The topic in question was whether the church or the pool of water in the church was his Promised La -- and, you know what, I'm not going to dignify the topic with an address any further. I've got more fruitful pursuits to consider, like rummaging through Midgar's garbage to find Zack's original ribbon that Aerith threw out.

And beating yourself to death with a rubber mallet.

@Syneiam: We've not pruned any votes just yet, so not sure what you mean.

 

[Eerie]

Weird I thought there were more votes for CloTi last time I checked o____o" But then again, I'm not paying a lot of attention to it either so.. XD

 

[Splintered]

It should be noted that Cloud's name wasn't even used in the Reunion Files when koibito was used in reference to Tifa. This is very significant,

Only if you can fail every single reading comprehension test known to man.

And watched AC/C with your eyes closed.

 

[Dashell]

And beating yourself to death with a rubber mallet.

I don't need Clerith logic to do this
.. well maybe not the to death part...

Also I don't get why they think that the Reunion Files thing is talking about Tifa throughout the compilation or in just FFVII. Isn't the entire thing about the movie unless it's obviously talking about the past? I mean wouldn't common sense tell you that it's speaking of her roles in the movie or at least with the "she's a mother" thing her roles for AFTER FFVII? maybe I'M reading into it too much.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Tbh my favorite argument is that the Reunion Files is too impersonal and doesn't get into Tifa's head, whereas Aerith's koibito statement holds more water because she can see into Cloud's head. Or something.