So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Ryushikaze]

Tbh my favorite argument is that the Reunion Files is too impersonal and doesn't get into Tifa's head, whereas Aerith's koibito statement holds more water because she can see into Cloud's head. Or something.

No, it's not even THAT sane, because the RF quote is Out of Character so Nomura's not in Tifa and Cloud's head, so that has less weight/ is less trustworthy, wheras CoLW is from Aerith's IC perspective, so it has more weight/ is more trustworthy.
It's not even that Aerith's in Cloud's head, it's that the story is in HER head, so it's more trustworthy.

But then again, I think AngelAlex is one of the Astral Plane crew...

 

[Dashell]

But then again, I think AngelAlex is one of the Astral Plane crew...

Do I wanna know?

Only thing I know about the Astral Plane is that's where... whatsherface meets Sephiroth.

 

[HalfMoon-Smile]

Hey, everyone^^

Nice to meet you. I'm new here...but already spent quite some time lurking this forum*sheepish grin*

Actually i want to read all of the posts here before i join, but that's just a 'little' bit hard to do since i have another works to do too. I have 256 pages to go here, hopefully i can finish them since i don't wanna miss every interesting opinion of all of you.

i choose Tifa for Cloud since she really deserves it. And after watching FF ACC, i definitely sure SE really means to straighten the point (not the LTD though). They don't point one girl and get Cloud to kiss that girl. It’s a barbaric *well, even i have to be honest that way would be preferable on this LTD* way to show love. I think they're neither in the position nor in the condition to be all lovey-dovey like a normal couple usually do. If i don't recall badly, they were on the big task to save the world. Their maturities develop more than their actual age. That's usually happen on war time.

The basic of FF ACC is to tell that someone already died actually will continue to live on when there is someone who keeps remembering them. Not like most of Clerith state, all of Aerith want to say is she never blames Cloud. She wants Cloud to be free from blaming himself. That's it. I don't find any romantic there. The appearance of Zack emphasizes it. Cloud must live on as a proof of his existence.

So, really, what's so romantic about it? I just see a deeply bond friendship. Like a post here (i think it's Vendel's statement. I'm sorry if I’m wrong), Cloud is saying, "I want forgiveness. Yes. I want forgiveness." not "I love you, Aerith, and want to do ***, *** thing with your soul."... How many time we watch, it won't be change magically, right? Except SE make FF VII ACC Revision...And that would be...ridiculous?

I'm not saying SE puts Tifa as an answer either. Not blatantly. All we know is Cloud DO cares with his family. If i remember correctly, and I’m sure i do, Tifa is accompanying Cloud, visiting Zack's tomb on the end credit. I take that as Cloud want to share his memory with Tifa, memory of Zack. So Zack will live on them as someone they knew, as a good friend, and as a hero ever alive. It’s another indication that Cloud really want to share his life with Tifa. Is this love? For my perspective it's a YES. It’s all about love and marriage that Kazuhige Nojima was talking about. For a marriage, i don't think a couple needs a hot-steamy love, but then just went away without any trace. A steady but everlasting would be wonderful enough. A relation where you could share every hard times to little silly one with your companion. A relation that grows deeper every time you understand a different side of your couple. Like a wedding vow to stay by your side in good or bad time, Cloud and Tifa relationship looks more real and why can't we call it love?

(One more indication, Zack is NEEDING MORE ATTENTION AND LOVE, that it is. Really, please don't abandon a wonderful man like him. It would be a shame D, I’m so ready to take him-like every girl will do-if Aerith had no interesting in him anymore, but then again she appears everywhere with Zack).

And please, Cloud is a person who always moves on. I don't mean he would forget Aerith (and Zack, duh) and go happily ever after with his family and friends. But judging from his personality, if Cloud ever loves Aerith romantically, i think Cloud could handle to move on from his 'undying love' for his 'fantasy' love to a new one, that steady and promising a great family.

Am i to sinister? i'm sorry if i was.

And am i Cloti enough? Hehe, I let another give a judge for me. I'm sorry for this long ranting and maybe a 'little' bit out of date which is full of my subjective perspective. I base myself with FF VII compilation (+interpretation). I hope i'm not so biased and could pull out some objective thoughts that worth reading. Uh, and sorry for grammatical error and such, that technically will disturbing you while reading and understanding this post. English is not my first language. Also I’m suck at it*sobs*.

P.S: Now, this is really just my interpretation, relating one thing to another as i wish-TeHe-. Everyone should be remembering Cloud's mom and Cloud's conversation. She said that Cloud have to find a girlfriend whom older than him to take care of him. He said he’s not interesting. And Voila! He gets Tifa. Someone is younger at age, but more mature on thought. She extremely takes good care of him. So, can we say Cloud's mother could leave at ease since Tifa fulfill both Cloud's and his mom's wish?

P.S.S: I love Aerith, why I should hate her anyway? I don’t have even a single reason to hate her. She’s wonderful. She is a character that you fall in love with right at the first time you saw her. But then, Tifa is not someone who you took attention at first (okay, leave the big boobs to another subject), but love for her grows with every of her act, thought, sympathy, insecurity…There you are, already fallen for her. Beautiful in her imperfection. It is just the way I felt. First time I played FF VII, I love Aerith very much and I more than agree that Cloud end up with Aerith even they already separated by death. I remembered fervently I was arguing with my brother about which girl Cloud ended up with. Second time I played, there’s more understanding come to my mind. The love for Tifa grew as I understand her more. Up until now I still love her and still growing. Doesn’t mean I choose Cloti because I love Tifa more than Aerith.

To sum up, I agree with everyone who said we have to play this game several times plus a more grown up mind to look more deeply. Cloti or Clerith are an option. The canon one is another matter that cannot be an option which is stick to the SE’s masterplan. I don’t know whether is it people’ mind blindfolded by fangirlish overwhelmed emotion that some people could not see every proofs that already laid in front of their eyes or are the proofs too vivid to understand that welcome misinterprets or is there really a proof or a tiny hint provided by production team? To look all over FF VII again, it never been a story about Cloud’s love journey. It’s just there to spice the story up. But it turns to be one of the main focus on fans’ hand. But we really can throw away the last thought though, so there’s two left.

Ugh, okay, I will continue my unworthy insight on the I-don’t-know-when-post. It become so long that it can stand as an lame essay.

 

[Dashell]

She said that Cloud have to find a girlfriend whom older than him to take care of him. He said he’s not interesting.

Heh I think you meant interested XD this insults Cloud... though I think he's kinda boring too

I'm not saying SE puts Tifa as an answer either. Not blatantly.

I would like to know how these thing do not make it blatant:

CxT have relationship issues, feelings for each other, Cloud opened his hearts only to Tifa, Tifa is an important woman and mother of their family, Cloud is her love interest, the father of her children, Tifa wears the pants in the family, etc.

Lemme know if you need more.

 

[HalfMoon-Smile]

Hello, Quexi (may i call you that?), nice to meet you

Thank you for the correction(yeah, shame on me, it would be an insult for Cloud), also thanks for the list of proofs.

Like i said on the epic-long-first-post, i think as a stand alone movie, ACC doesn't provide the answer blatantly. We just know Cloud cares his family. But if we read all through the compilation, the answer is there.

Anyway, i always love more infos about this LTD, so i take your offer as privilege.

So, please do continue?

 

[Dashell]

Ahh I see and I have to agree. I was frustrated that Tifa and Cloud didn't kiss or anything. I have some stuff on the LTD:

http://www.killthemongoose.com/interview.php
http://www.killthemongoose.com/koibito.php
http://www.killthemongoose.com/dissidia.php

They're works in progress but I plan to get back to them soon
and yes you may call me Quexi

 

[HalfMoon-Smile]

Oh, wow, are you made it?

I was frustrated that Tifa and Cloud didn't kiss or anything. I have some stuff on the LTD:

That's bad! That would ruin some*cough*...fanatic clerith's dream. really, about sexspirit...Cloud even call her 'mother'. How can that be related to sexspirit?

i can't see the logic.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah I wrote all that... more to come soon
.. especially since debating has really died down recently.

EDIT:
err on the interview one, forget I posted part of the quote twice... I don't know how I screwed that up but I'm too lazy to fix it.

 

[Strangelove]

So

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/search?stype=1&ei=UTF-8&dtype=2&p=こいびと
says koibito can be one sided... thoughts?

It's still not really common, though.

If you did want to play it as one-sided in the quote from Lifestream White, then it would significant that Cloud is 'the woman's [koibito]' and not the other way around. That makes Cloud the person the woman is in love with, and says nothing about how he feels.

 

[Dashell]

But seeing as how Tifa's role is stated to be "koibito"... well can someone have a role as "someone has a crush on them?" I mean I guess she could have a role as a "desired person" but again... who desires her?.. Rude? Johnny? ... that just seems weird to bring them up.

/end stuff we've said over 9000 times.

 

[Isabella]

Why would "person desired by Rude/Johnny" be one of her defining roles, though. Mother-figure to the children and ally to her friends, those are both major aspects of her character.

Nomura: "Oh, yeah, in addition to mother and ally, she also had a couple of guys eyeing her a few years ago. We're not going to show that in this movie, but I felt like mentioning that along with her other major roles, just because."

 

[Dashell]

Yeah but then they say that Cloud and Tifa never kissed or hugged or showed any romance in the movie

Which they didn't... and I was annoyed, I wanted some kissing action.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hello, Halfmoon. Take your time catching up. If you want to improve your English, I could provide corrections if you wish.

If Koibito is being used in the sense of 'One who is loved' without inherent mutuality, then as Bella said, it still makes no gorram sense to refer to Johnny or Rude, because none of them, and certainly not their emotions, are at all relevant to Tifa's life or her role in the film, whereas her role as a quasimother and ally in battle are relevant to the story, and to people important to her. For 'lover in a romantic relationship with X' or 'beloved of X' to refer to someone unimportant, for whom she's never shown the slightest romantic interest makes JACKALL sense.

 

[Isabella]

Is kissing and holding hands the only way to depict a couple in a movie? Especially a couple that's dealing with both a personal crisis at home and a crazy dead guy threatening the world? Kissing/hand holding is better left to teen rom-coms, not a couple who has built a home together and is raising children.

Just because they aren't kissy-kissy doesn't mean they aren't depicted as a couple, or that their relationship isn't an integral part of the story. You take away so much of Cloud's motivation if you play down his feelings.

Think about it: If kissing is the only way to depict a relationship in a movie, then physical intimacy is all that relationship is about.

 

[Dashell]

Oh I'm not saying that that's the only way, I just want to see them kiss is all I was disappointed that they didn't and still didn't in DoC

Just show them kiss all ready, you've done everything else.

 

[Isabella]

Oh I know, I was referring to people who say they weren't depicted as a couple in the movie because they didn't kiss. That gets on my nerves.

Really, other than the very end, when would they kiss, anyway? When would it even be appropriate? As for Cloud running up to Tifa and laying one on her in the church, in front of everybody ... does that really seem like something they'd do? They're so reserved and private.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think they did us one better than a kiss for slamming us with the idea that Cloud and Tifa are together in the struggle what with the impossible fall so we can have the face to face spin in the flower field and the whole talk in the kids room.
And that's just the film itself. Take the rest of the compilation, and it gets even more overt.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I think they did us one better than a kiss for slamming us with the idea that Cloud and Tifa are together in the struggle what with the impossible fall so we can have the face to face spin in the flower field and the whole talk in the kids room.
And that's just the film itself. Take the rest of the compilation, and it gets even more overt.

Not to mention the CONSTANT pans of Tifa's reactions to Cloud throughout the entire film. People seem to forget this is a CGI film and EVERY shot is painstakingly thought out. They don't pan to Tifa during the Bahamut fight for any other reason than to show her reaction to CLOUD... or the church...or the room...

And although ACC wasn't simply a movie about Cloud accepting his past and moving on, it was a movie that showcased the dynamic between those two, it's a bothersome irk of mine that there is the constant request for "token romance" gestures.

Compilation has gone so far beyond that, but even if we focus only on AC/C, then we have the fact that Nojima himself said that he knew ONE THING for sure; and he showed us that. Cloud is with Tifa--not only romantically (which seems to be the Clerith's biggest and only concern)--but in a way that he is NEVER with anyone else. Tifa is his support, his partner, and his reason for fighting. That relationship goes so much deeper than 'OMG SMEX' and 'flowery love' it's almost a slap in the face of 'love story'.

 

[aniron]

FHS, the absence of kisses/hugs and all that lovey-dovey stuff between Cloud and Tifa in AC/C is the last straw for Cleriths to hold onto.
But seeing how they managed to twist Cloti church scene, I'd imagine that their reaction to C/T kissing would be "well, Cloud lost Aerith so he can move on now with Tifa... but he'll always truly love only Aerith".

 

[Splintered]

Why would "person desired by Rude/Johnny" be one of her defining roles, though. Mother-figure to the children and ally to her friends, those are both major aspects of her character.

Nomura: "Oh, yeah, in addition to mother and ally, she also had a couple of guys eyeing her a few years ago. We're not going to show that in this movie, but I felt like mentioning that along with her other major roles, just because."

Right, I honestly don't understand how people need to believe it was Johnny and not Cloud. Cloud-Tifa dynamic is not only extremely point to Tifa's character, but AC/C itself. It would be stupid to list off all of Tifa's defining points- as a mother and a comrade. Also someone likes her---- but it's totally not the guy we had her develop a relationship with!... it's.... this random person she hasn't talked to in any other parts of the compilation.

That makes total sense. Thank you fandom, for showing me the light.

The idea that Cloud isn't mentioned being significant makes no sense to me. It's not significant just because you say so, you've got to prove it somehow. It's not- not significant if I say so either, but at least it doesn't feel like I pulled it out of my ass. When people argue that Aerith's koibito doesn't work, the points are drawn up that it's a third person novel and that the narrative is not suppose to be the author's pov, it's Aerith's. No one has yet to convince me with any amount of evidence or literary analysis that the lack of Cloud's name means anything.

Compare:
"Tifa is a mother"
to
"Tifa is a mother to Marlene and Denzel."

Also

"She is a comrade in arms"
"to
"She is a comrade in arms to Avalanche."

We can pick and prod the sentences are we like but the strength and the meaning of the sentences stay the same. Nothing has changed, there is no real significance to leaving out "Marlene and Denzel" along with "Avalance." So why is this different to Tifa's "She is a lover" and "She is a lover to Cloud."?

There is only thing one that is significant about leaving Cloud's name out with the rest, and that is the man speaking assumes you have enough common sense to know that it is Cloud he is talking about. Which means he has put work in the actual compilation to provide that the audience sees a lover like relationship.

So yeah, maybe I was wrong, it is significant that Cloud's name is not included...

 

[HalfMoon-Smile]

Hello, Halfmoon. Take your time catching up. If you want to improve your English, I could provide corrections if you wish.

@Ryushikaze: Hello, too, Ryushikaze. That was a very generous offer. If you don't mind, i eagerly want to learn too, but i guess this thread is not a right place to study, eh?

Fuuh, Isabella just wrote everything i always want to say, perfectly and precisely. If everyone too confuse with my post several pages ago, there, Isabella really help me to sum up.

*cookies for Isabella*

@Quexi: i have read one of your essay, i definitely will read the other two. Thank you so much. That conclude most of the epically endless war between two stubborn leagues (and summary of 430 pages here). The truth is, whatever needed to get the answer is think clearly.

how people need to believe it was Johnny and not Cloud.

Which people???

@All: Marlene and Denzel are helping Cloud and Tifa with their relationship. It doesn't sound weird to me, nonetheless it sounds like family. Kids always be a tie that bond their parent. When a father and a mother has severe problem that they think they cannot solve anymore, the kids always being a reason for them to work it out. Divorce is the last problem-solving and unprefferable. I'm an asian and maybe my opinion is convensional which is not believable in this modern world. but, Cloud still hanging out with his 7th heaven family on DoC, so Cloud should be agree with me.

 

[Tennyo]

Oh I know, I was referring to people who say they weren't depicted as a couple in the movie because they didn't kiss. That gets on my nerves.

Really, other than the very end, when would they kiss, anyway? When would it even be appropriate? As for Cloud running up to Tifa and laying one on her in the church, in front of everybody ... does that really seem like something they'd do? They're so reserved and private.

There is no appropriate moment in AC/C for it to happen. But remember, in the mind of phangrrlz and boiz (the kind that like fanfiction) everything and anything can be thrown into a story regardless of it making sense. No kiss = no love.

But in all seriousness, I just had a thought. In the remake of "The Itallian Job," Matt Damon's character and the blonde chick, who is the daughter of the older guy who dies in the beginning, end up together in the end. This is not really flat-out stated, nor do we see them kiss or hold hands or really hug. It is only very heavily implied. They have tension throughout the movie, and in the end, all we get is a shot of them in a boat with Matt Damon's character saying in narration "I took his advice and found something to hold on to, and I held on tight," or some such. When he says, "His advice," I do believe he is talking about the blonde chick's father, who was a good friend of Matt Damon's character (do correct me if my memory is off).

So I wonder, if every has to be explicitly shown in order to be true, what would these people think if we showed them movies where everything was more subtle?

And bah I wish I could find the clip on YouTube. The scene happens during the credits, and the only clip from the credits I can find is when the one guy makes a stereo that can blast women's clothes off. XD

 

[Shadowfox]

But in all seriousness, I just had a thought. In the remake of "The Itallian Job," Matt Damon's character and the blonde chick, who is the daughter of the older guy who dies in the beginning, end up together in the end. This is not really flat-out stated, nor do we see them kiss or hold hands or really hug. It is only very heavily implied. They have tension throughout the movie, and in the end, all we get is a shot of them in a boat with Matt Damon's character saying in narration "I took his advice and found something to hold on to, and I held on tight," or some such. When he says, "His advice," I do believe he is talking about the blonde chick's father, who was a good friend of Matt Damon's character (do correct me if my memory is off).

Damon wasn't in the movie; it was Mark Wahlberg's character.

IIRC, there was a brief mention near the beginning of the movie that heavily hinted to us that the girl and the guy had been in a relationship before.

So I wonder, if every has to be explicitly shown in order to be true, what would these people think if we showed them movies where everything was more subtle?

They'd pick and choose where to apply the requirement for explicit scenes. Just like they're doing so now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze: Hello, too, Ryushikaze. That was a very generous offer. If you don't mind, i eagerly want to learn too, but i guess this thread is not a right place to study, eh?

Not in a dedicated sense, but I can always provide corrections.

[qote]Fuuh, Isabella just wrote everything i always want to say, perfectly and precisely. If everyone too confuse with my post several pages ago, there, Isabella really help me to sum up.

*cookies for Isabella*[/quote]

You'll find that happens a lot. She's a Master of English, after all.

@Quexi: i have read one of your essay, i definitely will read the other two. Thank you so much. That conclude most of the epically endless war between two stubborn leagues (and summary of 430 pages here). The truth is, whatever needed to get the answer is think clearly.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence. It's a mish mash of tenses and lacks prepositions. Did you mean 'What was needed to get the answer was just to think Clearly'?

Which people???

Certain denizens of Clerith.com and its forums.

@All: Marlene and Denzel are helping Cloud and Tifa with their relationship. It doesn't sound weird to me, nonetheless it sounds like family. Kids always be a tie that bond their parent. When a father and a mother has severe problem that they think they cannot solve anymore, the kids always being a reason for them to work it out. Divorce is the last problem-solving and unprefferable. I'm an asian and maybe my opinion is convensional

conventional. In english, the general rule is that if a word ends in with the 'shun' sound, and 'ion', it's 'ti' making the 'sh' sound.

which is not believable in this modern world. but, Cloud still hanging out with his 7th heaven family on DoC, so Cloud should be agree with me.

I'm sure he would. Hell, I bet the kids just help them out by stating stuff out loud so the adults don't hold it in out of worry.

 

[Dashell]

Okay so I guess Nojima brings up love, marriage and family because he wants to make it clear that he doesn't think that Cloud and Tifa should get married... but... even if that was the case, wouldn't contradict several other statements he's made? He was the "Cloud and Tifa would together." person right?