So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Alessa Gillespie]

I'm talking about the symbolism thing.

...what?

 

[Dashell]

Most of the people I've asked have said it indicates a serious, exclusive relationship, that you wouldn't use it for someone you're casually dating. But as a non-Japanese speaker, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected on it's connotation if it's not accurate.

Well this is me so I'm probably wrong

And you're saying there's no way the same exact sentence in Case of Tifa would mean that Cloud's just a symbol of a lover and a friend? He is, after all, at least a friend to Aerith and him being a symbol of a friend doesn't mean he's not a friend. So in Case of Tifa, him being a symbol of a lover wouldn't mean he wasn't her lover... I think

I know, Cloud and Aerith didn't know each other for very long, I get that. I just don't think Aerith is ... well I think she's a reliable source is all. I don't think she should be doubted, especially when several of us have talked about there being this Red Herring and what not that made us think Cloud and Aerith were going to be the actual couple.

 

[Isabella]

And you're saying there's no way the same exact sentence in Case of Tifa would mean that Cloud's just a symbol of a lover and a friend?

I would never say "no way," I'm just saying I'd have to consider all the evidence in context.

especially when several of us have talked about there being this Red Herring and what not that made us think Cloud and Aerith were going to be the actual couple

Thing with red herrings is, they aren't true. They're inserted in order to mislead.

 

[Fighter]

First off I don't think koibito is really... like ... totally serious. It's more lighthearted... I think anyway. I think aijin is the one that's really serious, sit down and talk about it kind of stuff.

Aijin can be taken as not romantic though. Koibito is strictly romantic. I would say the seriousness factor is a matter of context, but one thing is clear, it means beloved/lover in a strictly romantic/sexual sense.

 

[Tennyo]

Thing with red herrings is, they aren't true. They're inserted in order to mislead.

Time for a lesson in English Lit!

Ten Little Indians

Ten little Indian boys went out to dine;

One choked his little self and then there were nine.

Nine little Indian boys sat up very late;

One overslept himself and then there were eight.

Eight little Indian boys traveling in Devon;

One said he’d stay there and then there were seven.

Seven little Indian boys chopping up sticks;

One chopped himself in halves and then there were six.

Six little Indian boys playing with a hive;

A bumblebee stung one and then there were five.

Five little Indian boys going in for law,

One got in Chancery and then there were four.

*Four little Indian boys going out to sea;

A red herring swallowed one and then there were three.*

Three little Indian boys walking in the Zoo;

A big bear hugged one and then there were two.

Two little Indian boys sitting in the sun;

On got frizzled up and then there was one.

One little Indian boy left all alone;

He went and hanged himself and then there were none.

*One person dies during each stanza of the poem. The red herring dude faked his death and was the real killer, but you don't know that until the final chic hangs herself. OH SNAP!

Because this is the kind of stuff that good stories do. They lead you in one direction then take you in another.

 

[aniron]

There is one thing about "Cloud was her koi bito" that I still try to comprehend.
If Aerith was indeed wrong stating that Cloud was her boyfriend, then why would SE deliberately make Aerith appear wrong and delusional?

"Desired person" just seems more right, as far as her statement about Cloud being a symbol goes.

 

[Dashell]

Thing with red herrings is, they aren't true. They're inserted in order to mislead.

well maybe they mislead Aerith

There is one thing about "Cloud was her koi bito" that I still try to comprehend.
If Aerith was indeed wrong stating that Cloud was her boyfriend, then why would SE deliberately make Aerith appear wrong and delusional?

"Desired person" just seems more right, as far as her statement about Cloud being a symbol goes.

Yes thank you! For the same reasons I don't think they made Tifa out to be some fumbling idiot in KH2 like some people claim.

koi bito

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

There is one thing about "Cloud was her koi bito" that I still try to comprehend.
If Aerith was indeed wrong stating that Cloud was her boyfriend, then why would SE deliberately make Aerith appear wrong and delusional?

"Desired person" just seems more right, as far as her statement about Cloud being a symbol goes.

Well, technically, all Aerith said was that she wanted to appear in a form familiar to Cloud. The person who's writing down things she thinks says that Cloud is her friend and lover. Or some shit.

 

[Isabella]

For what it's worth, I favor the "symbol" interpretation of the line because I don't think Aerith is an idiot. It makes more sense to me that Cloud has become a symbol of everything in the living world that's dear and worth protecting, vs. Aerith thinking she was in a relationship with a guy who had no clue.

 

[Dashell]

Well, technically, all Aerith said was that she wanted to appear in a form familiar to Cloud. The person who's writing down things she thinks says that Cloud is her friend and lover. Or some shit.

This IS a joke right?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I am clearly panicking because Aerith declared Cloud her lover and grasping at straws. Because I know Tifa has no chance with Cloud whatsoever and Cloud hates her and I just cannot accept how pretty and sweet Aerith is because her sweetness burns my black, black soul.

 

[Isabella]

You all realize, of course, that even if Cloud popped up in COL to say, "oh yes, by the way, we were totally lovers during those two weeks," that it wouldn't have any effect on whether Cloud and Tifa are together in the present.

 

[Dashell]

Yes which is why I don't mind saying that her statement is accurate

 

[aniron]

For what it's worth, I favor the "symbol" interpretation of the line because I don't think Aerith is an idiot. It makes more sense to me that Cloud has become a symbol of everything in the living world that's dear and worth protecting, vs. Aerith thinking she was in a relationship with a guy who had no clue.

See the Clerith logic:
Aerith calls Cloud her "lover" = SE states Cloud as Aerith's lover = Clerith is canon
Nothing else matters.

 

[Isabella]

Yes which is why I don't mind saying that her statement is accurate

I guess it all comes down to the what connotation "koibito" carries. If it can mean, girl totally dug a guy who reminded her of her long-lost boyfriend and guy had no clue who the hell he was but thought girl was like, way cute, then maybe I could see the argument for it.

But if I've been told accurately that "koibito" means one's beloved, then I still can't see how it works with the story we've been given.

 

[Dashell]

Seriously? I lost my post? I copied it before I closed this thing... arugh

Okay, think of the word koibito having the same meaning as boyfriend or girlfriend. That's all I can say really. At least that's my understanding of it. I guess it can be one sided but that's extremely rare. It does not refer to a crush or anything like that. It makes a relationship 99.9% of the time.

But again, I dunno I'm not Japanese. This is just what a recent TNC member who claimed to be a Japanese native said.

 

[Vossler]

I am clearly panicking because Aerith declared Cloud her lover and grasping at straws. Because I know Tifa has no chance with Cloud whatsoever and Cloud hates her and I just cannot accept how pretty and sweet Aerith is because her sweetness burns my black, black soul.

You know, you have a good point.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess it all comes down to the what connotation "koibito" carries. If it can mean, girl totally dug a guy who reminded her of her long-lost boyfriend and guy had no clue who the hell he was but thought girl was like, way cute, then maybe I could see the argument for it.

It could mean that in this case, yes. That's a legitimate use of "koibito."

But if I've been told accurately that "koibito" means one's beloved, then I still can't see how it works with the story we've been given.

Well, even in English, "beloved" doesn't always imply mutuality.

 

[Dashell]

It could mean that in this case, yes. That's a legitimate use of "koibito."

See before CoLW came out a lot of people said it implies a mutual relationship, and I've heard that from a LOT of people. So has some of the others. So i tend to think of it as a relationship word

BUT
I guess what I want to know, is if that isn't the case and it's not a relationship, how do we know the Reunion Files koibito is referring to Cloud when it could be she's just loved by a lot of people? I mean yeah context but "She's a mother, loved by many, and an ally in battle" or w/e

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

See before CoLW came out a lot of people said it implies a mutual relationship, and I've heard that from a LOT of people. So has some of the others. So i tend to think of it as a relationship word

BUT
I guess what I want to know, is if that isn't the case and it's not a relationship, how do we know the Reunion Files koibito is referring to Cloud when it could be she's just loved by a lot of people? I mean yeah context but "She's a mother, loved by many, and an ally in battle" or w/e

From the wording of the sentence itself, you wouldn't. It's the overall context of the quote and the book proper you'd look to.

There, Nomura had just mentioned two roles of Tifa that are not only important to her, but important to the film itself -- and, thus, relevant to mention in the book.

Were it talking about Rude's crush, that wouldn't fit the context. That isn't brought up in the film or elsewhere in the book.

Were it Johnny's, that wouldn't fit either. He's not even in the film or mentioned in the book.

If Nomura's not talking about Cloud, we're left with a scenario where Nomura's being interviewed and says the following:

"Tifa has various roles. She's raising these two kids, so she's like a mother to them. She also fights in life and death battles with her friends, so she's an ally in battle to them. Oh, and she's liked by this guy whose existence she barely noted when he was drooling on her tits from across the bar while she served him his drinks. I realize that's not pertinent to the movie that this book is all about, but, hey, I just filled 1/10 of the page's space. Got to fluff this book out somehow."

 

[Dashell]

The worst part is... I have to change my entire koibito page but thanks for clearing it up. Though everyone I showed the page to said it was saying Tifa's someone's lover, including a Japanese native

Well I had to add the symbol part anyway...


TOO

MUCH


FUSS

OVER


ONE


GOD

DAMN
WORD

 

[Vossler]

The worst part is... I have to change my entire koibito page
Well I had to add the symbol part anyway...


TOO

MUCH


FUSS

OVER


ONE


GOD

DAMN
WORD

Yeah no kidding. Ya gotta be perfect you know hahahah.
I was just thinking. Maybe draw straws on who he would end up with.

 

[Isabella]

What Tres said. And as the pinks are fond of pointing out, much of Tifa's world seems to revolve around Cloud. It would be odd to mention her defining roles with regards to the kids and Avalanche, but leave out her role with regards to Cloud, this man she lives with, loves and is always thinking about/worried about. That would be a glaring omission, don't you think?

It could mean that in this case, yes. That's a legitimate use of "koibito."

I'll have to cast aside my belief that it indicates a serious relationship, then.

 

[Vendel]

So Cloud is her friend and lover. And a symbol of her friend and lover?

 

[Fighter]

Okay, think of the word koibito having the same meaning as boyfriend or girlfriend. That's all I can say really. At least that's my understanding of it. I guess it can be one sided but that's extremely rare. It does not refer to a crush or anything like that. It makes a relationship 99.9% of the time.

Rare or not. Cloud was very clearly not Aerith's boyfriend.