So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Vossler]

It always was, you people are just in denial.

Didn't we already establish Aerith = heroine?

Yeah these types of debates tend to be addicting

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And on top of that, I'd like to see the source that says the official script that came with the LE boxed set is not canon. After all, the script says Cloud merely drove by and never saw her there. Amazingly, that's what was seen in the scene as well.

In fairness, there are parts of it that obviously don't jibe with the finished product. For example, the confrontation with Kadaj in Aerith's church.

But the parts that seem to match up with what's on the screen? There is no reason to question those.

The only Compilation entry I think you could legitimately not consider canon are Last Order and Maiden, because they aren't made directly by SE and contradict info directly given by the games.

LO was still written by Nojima, but, at any rate, SE has said it's not considered part of the Compilation. Even though they still never fail to mention it alongside it.

But, yeah, you can certainly exclude those two from the official continuity.

...as far as I know, LO wasn't officially voted off the island. It is referred to in the Ultis. And I though the contradictions were explained away by "Turk POV, ha!"

As Que mentioned, it was voted off the island, but on the topic of its contradictions, that "Turk POV" thing was bullshit anyway. Look at Cloud's file in front of Tseng as he reads it. It actually says that Shin-Ra concluded that Cloud killed Sephiroth, which differs from what was shown in LO.

So "Seph jumped" was never a Turk conclusion. Not even in Before Crisis, where the Turk on the scene said Seph fell into the mako, despite jumping there as well. The Turks had always concluded that Cloud killed Seph, even when he was shown jumping.

Going back to an earlier discussion.

So someone explain to me how CoLW koibito means something different than dictionary definition koibito? Or RF koibito.

It seems to me the simplest solution to the wording is....
A. Aerith is simply mistaken/still projecting on Cloud
or
B. She was "speaking" symbolically

Now we all know Cloud and Aerith were not lovers/an item/BF&GF. Because absolutely nothing in the narrative supports that. In fact it gives us official quotes that make it impossible.

So suddenly the simplest solution is to change the meaning of the word so as to avoid the two above possibilities?

I'm sorry but I am perfectly willing to say Aerith is an unreliable narrator when it comes to her own feelings. Or the thing is not meant to be taken literally.

No, he did not explain how the meaning has suddenly changed. And I want it explained in a reasonable manor. We harp on Cleriths for pulling this sort of shit.

The meaning never changed. It's always meant "desired person" or "person who is loved/desired." It's a lot like "beloved" is to us.

And -- as is usually the case with "beloved" -- it's typically used where there's reciprocity, thus, giving the more common understanding of "boyfriend" or "girlfriend." But neither word is exclusive to cases where there's reciprocity.

As you detailed at length, there's nothing in FFVII's narrative -- or the extra-textual commentary to have come since -- that allows the possibility of Cloud and Aerith being a couple in the original game. This meaning of the word fits its usage in Case of the Lifestream White.

As well, it fits the usage in the Reunion Files, where it was said that Tifa is someone's "desired person."

Obviously it's not talking about Johnny (not in AC or mentioned elsehwere in the book) or Rude (his crush isn't mentioned in AC or elsewhere in the book), nor would it even make sense to mention those crushes as important, actualized roles for Tifa. Especially not alongside roles like being a mother to Denzel and Marlene, or being an ally in life-and-death battles alongside her friends.

For that matter, those two roles are important to Tifa herself. I doubt that being Johnny's crush means a whole lot to Tifa.

There's only one person it could reasonably have been taken to mean.

...Cloud. For anyone determined not to get the point: it's Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Also, if you look back, I think all the discussion re: koibito in COLW from myself is prefaced with "If we are taking this to mean lover and not beloved", or some of it anyways.

Re: the RF quote, for some time now, I've held that it could also mean 'beloved', so in our case, it's hardly switching around meanings.

 

[Fighter]

Just to address this again.

No, he did not explain how the meaning has suddenly changed. And I want it explained in a reasonable manor. We harp on Cleriths for pulling this sort of shit.

I don't know if you were around in ACF days but I have personally brought up both the definitions of the word at least a dozen (probably more) times in those debates which all the people in the pink place knew about very well. This was long before COLW.

So no we never pulled the same shit. And if anyone is harping about the matter it is an issue of their selective memories and not our inconsistency.

 

[Vendel]

The meaning never changed. It's always meant "desired person" or "person who is loved/desired." It's a lot like "beloved" is to us.

Now I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. But with my own looking around and with what has been said on this site. Koibito is always shown as a relationship term. Even if the word is used incorrectly it still means the same thing.

It is just a bit jarring to now say "well it is always used like this but since it technically means this we will use it differently".

Kind of like calling a Harley rider a faggot and actually meaning "a bundle of sticks" or an "old woman". (thank you South Park)

I don't know if you were around in ACF days

No. My first post on this forum is 5-1-09 I believe. I became interested in this particular subject at most a week before that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well it's been a good four months since this topic has been opened.... Minds and hearts have been changed. Meaningful (and not so meaningful) debates have been had. Debaters have come and debaters have run. Even sockpuppets have visited and had their say.

So who thinks we should start a new topic for this? This one is 452 pages and chances are no one in their right mind is gonna bother reading any of these to jump in. So yeah.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Minds and hearts have been changed.

How many of us have both, though?

Meaningful (and not so meaningful) debates have been had.

Where was I for the meaningful ones?

Debaters have come and debaters have run.

Yeah, good ol' Pokey the Pitchfork was a big help. Gooood Pokey, good girl....

So who thinks we should start a new topic for this? This one is 452 pages and chances are no one in their right mind is gonna bother reading any of these to jump in. So yeah.

NO! The last LT thread was over 700 pages, this one needs at least 600 before it closes!

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

666.

Am I right in saying that you want to start a new thread because newcomers will not read 400 pages before getting into the debate? But wouldn't that generally hold true for a hundred pages, or less, as well?

 

[Sunstrider]

I wouldn't mind a shiny new topic, but I don't think it'll necessarily encourage more people to join in. The particulars of the subject being discussed change a lot in this thread, so people would just have to skim the last couple of pages to get what people are currently talking about.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Yeah, we're about as consistent here as SE is with the Nibelheim Incident. :p

 

[Vossler]

Yeah, we're about as consistent here as SE is with the Nibelheim Incident. :p

Ha yeah no doubt. How many stories have we heard so far?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Ha yeah no doubt. How many stories have we heard so far?

It seems like it changes every game. FF7, CC, BC and LO all have their own variations, not to mention the three or four variations within FF7 itself.

 

[Makoeyes987]

....There's only two variations in FFVII. The real one, and the fake one Cloud thinks of when he's under the influence of Jenova cells.

BC's and LO's rendition of the scene are the same as well.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

....There's only two variations in FFVII. The real one, and the fake one Cloud thinks of when he's under the influence of Jenova cells.

BC's and LO's rendition of the scene are the same as well.

Nope. BC includes the Turk going to the reactor before Zack and Cloud and witnessing the events that transpire when they arrive.

http://www.ffcompilation.co.uk/pages/bc/bc_chapter_12.php

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination. But with my own looking around and with what has been said on this site. Koibito is always shown as a relationship term. Even if the word is used incorrectly it still means the same thing.

It is just a bit jarring to now say "well it is always used like this but since it technically means this we will use it differently".

I can't speak to any other arguments as to how the word was used in the past as I've never used it any other way. I've only been on this site for a couple of months, long after the debates of the Reunion Files days passed.

That said, I have certainly heard the accusation leveled that there are CloudxTifa supporters who insisted that "koibito" always identified a relationship that was reciprocal, only to later change their arguments when Case of the Lifestream White came along.

I don't doubt that it happened, but I've not investigated who this is true of myself.

All I know is that anyone -- be they Cloti or Clerith, then or now -- who insists that "koibito" always indicates reciprocated feelings is incorrect.

666.

616.

Am I right in saying that you want to start a new thread because newcomers will not read 400 pages before getting into the debate? But wouldn't that generally hold true for a hundred pages, or less, as well?

I wouldn't mind a shiny new topic, but I don't think it'll necessarily encourage more people to join in. The particulars of the subject being discussed change a lot in this thread, so people would just have to skim the last couple of pages to get what people are currently talking about.

Yeah, we're about as consistent here as SE is with the Nibelheim Incident. :p

Agreed on all points. With great emphasis on the last.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nope. BC includes the Turk going to the reactor before Zack and Cloud and witnessing the events that transpire when they arrive.

http://www.ffcompilation.co.uk/pages/bc/bc_chapter_12.php

That's the whole reason we see the Martial Arts female there in LO having witnessed the confrontation between Cloud and Sephiroth. LO just doesn't showcase any of the Turk's exploits regarding what went down there.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That's the whole reason we see the Martial Arts female there in LO having witnessed the confrontation between Cloud and Sephiroth. LO just doesn't showcase any of the Turk's exploits regarding what went down there.

BC also doesn't have the conversations between Tifa and Zack, and Tifa and Cloud, that LO did.

I agree there's a lot of similarities between BC and LO's versions, but there are differences still too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

BC also doesn't have the conversations between Tifa and Zack, and Tifa and Cloud, that LO did.

I agree there's a lot of similarities between BC and LO's versions, but there are differences still too.

That's more of a perspective presentation issue, than a complete difference and contradiction. LO is mostly from Zack's POV. BC is clearly the Turks. So based on that, they aren't going to necessary show or depict the same thing in terms of the total picture.

The differences are more towards perspective rather than outright differences as it is between LO and FFVII for example.

 

[Dashell]

That said, I have certainly heard the accusation leveled that there are CloudxTifa supporters who insisted that "koibito" always identified a relationship that was reciprocal, only to later change their arguments when Case of the Lifestream White came along.

I don't doubt that it happened, but I've not investigated who this is true of myself.

Same as certain someones said koibito ISN'T romantic or that it means person who loves have now changed their tune

People on both sides did a 180, and it was amusing to hear about and it's STILL amusing how both sides pin the 180 on the other side only.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I can't speak to any other arguments as to how the word was used in the past as I've never used it any other way. I've only been on this site for a couple of months, long after the debates of the Reunion Files days passed.

That said, I have certainly heard the accusation leveled that there are CloudxTifa supporters who insisted that "koibito" always identified a relationship that was reciprocal, only to later change their arguments when Case of the Lifestream White came along.

Ah yes, the nameless, faceless Cloti who are always something silly.

I don't doubt that it happened, but I've not investigated who this is true of myself.

All I know is that anyone -- be they Cloti or Clerith, then or now -- who insists that "koibito" always indicates reciprocated feelings is incorrect.

Well, there was a time when it was simplified as such, due to frustrations at repeating ourselves so often, but taking pains to make sure it meant beloved were taken by myself and others long before COLW.
In fact, I think our responses to the first complaints about Hitobito's COLW translation were to point out that it meant 'desired person'. Haven't checked, though, but I think that's right.

In short, from my end, at least, the arguing using the 'lovers' standpoint is for the sake of argument, not because I think it's so. I'll grant 'lover' or 'beloved' to either side, because the context is what really matters.

616.

An imperial thread!

 

[Makoeyes987]

People on both sides did a 180, and it was amusing to hear about and it's STILL amusing how both sides pin the 180 on the other side only.

No...both sides did not do a 180. Only one side did.

 

[Dashell]

Really? Because Isabella and Vendel and myself were under the assumption that the word meant love between two people until just a bit ago. I've been using that argument for the longest time and saying CoLW is third person limited and stuff like that only to find out it's not accurate (the koibito argument no the CoLW one)

So someone out there was saying it and I remember you telling me specifically that the word is usually mutual. So I'm fairly certain someone out there was saying that it could only be mutual and then shut up when CoLW came out. Maybe not anyone here, I dunno, but it probably did happen.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Really? Because Isabella and Vendel and myself were under the assumption that the word meant love between two people until just a bit ago. I've been using that argument for the longest time and saying CoLW is third person limited and stuff like that only to find out it's not accurate (the koibito argument no the CoLW one)

You thought wrong then. It's not just about the word only meaning "X" its about context. If God said "Quexinos is a lot of things in my universe. A fighter, a mother, and a lover." Then in terms of the context of the "creator" stating the role Quexinos fills in his universe, she is a lover. And who is she a lover to? More than likely, the guy she has feelings for, and is in a relationship with. Period.

"Koibito" usually means lover, and lover to someone else in terms of a boyfriend/girlfriend. But it's not just about copy-pasting the dictionary definition and looking only at that. It's the context.

Aerith saying Cloud is like a boyfriend to her in a 3rd person restricted novella is NOT the same thing as the creator stating Tifa is a lover in the story of AC. Who else would Nomura say she's a lover to in AC?

So someone out there was saying it and I remember you telling me specifically that the word is usually mutual. So I'm fairly certain someone out there was saying that it could only be mutual and then shut up when CoLW came out. Maybe not anyone here, I dunno, but it probably did happen.

Don't play this game. There are no ninja Clotis here. I never said koibito could only mean one thing. I've always harped on the context of the fact NOMURA said Tifa was a lover to Cloud. That context coupled by the definition and use of the world is completely different than the context and use of the word by Aerith in a novella, where she's merely expressing her own feelings.

The only side that went through 3 definitions of the same word, were the preposterous pinkers.

 

[Dashell]

You thought wrong then.

Yes, yes I did.

It's not just about the word only meaning "X" its about context. If God said "Quexinos is a lot of things in my universe. A fighter, a mother, and a lover."

He'd be wrong about two of those things

Then in terms of the context of the "creator" stating the role Quexinos fills in his universe, she is a lover. And who is she a lover to? More than likely, the guy she has feelings for, and is in a relationship with. Period.

Okay I understand, when it's stating roles, that would be the most likely definition.

Don't play this game. There are no ninja Clotis here.

Well yeah I should be fair, I wasn't here for this. I dunno who said what but it doesn't seem entirely impossible that someone somewhere said the "it can only be mutual" thing. On the other hand though... I know what it's like to have to repeat myself over and over again so I won't throw out the idea that people were just hearing what they wanted to hear.

The only side that went through 3 definitions of the same word, were the preposterous pinkers.

It was more than 3

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well yeah I should be fair, I wasn't here for this. I dunno who said what but it doesn't seem entirely impossible that someone somewhere said the "it can only be mutual" thing. On the other hand though... I know what it's like to have to repeat myself over and over again so I won't throw out the idea that people were just hearing what they wanted to hear.

Well how about you look at this way.

Which side of the argument can you find a dissection of the word "koibito" that has gone through at least 3 different revisions, with a matching forum and section with "translators" who went through all threads saying that koibito didn't mean lover, and it was just a word to describe someone's traits as a character? Which side had a whole webpage devoted to warping the word?

Hint: It wasn't the Cloti side.