So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Raquelborn]

When I die, I'm totally going to tell my best friend to tap my girlfriend. Because that's what best friends too.

Ever seen Pearl Harbour?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ever seen Pearl Harbour?

....Don't tell me that happens.

No, I haven't.

 

[Dashell]

Hmm... is this in one of the OTWTAS entries, or are you referring to the photos in AC/ACC?

I know some people who have actually taken such family photos with close friends of the family also in shot. I've never seen the point, TBH, but it does happen. And as Marlene's closer than just a family friend... *shrug*

From the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

· After traveling to several places with Cloud and Barret, Tifa opens the bar Seventh Heaven in Edge on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey to find a new energy source. Together with Cloud, the 3 of them began living together as a family.

Notice the part I bolded. It specifically states the three of them are a family. Just the three of them.

Also from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.

Right there it states that the family is Cloud's.

Also in FFVII AC Cloud calls the family his.
"Tifa I don't think I'm fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends, nobody."

Lastly there's the ACC playback. This guide also specifically states who's in the family:

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself..

In order we have
1. His friends.
2. The children
3. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel... his family! No mention of Barret or anyone else being in the family. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are separated from the rest.

Now I know some people say that Marlene had to put Cloud in the family herself, but that doesn't mean the family isn't his. If I suggested you and your SO get married and you guys start a family, is the family not yours then?

Also yes Barret is still Marlene's adoptive father and she still calls him Daddy. He will always be her adoptive family, but part of Cloud's family he is not.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

EDIT:
If Zack can give Cloud his sword, the symbol of his dreams, honour and memories of Angeal (something very precious to him) and then ask him to live on as his legacy, falling for Aerith could be considered a part of that.

Now I'm not saying he did want Cloud to get with Aerith. I can just see where Neutron's friend is coming from to an extent.

To make that GIGANTIC leap from "carry on my dreams" to "ass-shag my girlfriend" you'd have to assume that Zack knew Cloud would even MEET Aerith--whom Zack wasn't sure was still even waiting for HIM... not to mention her whereabouts.

There's not even a fine line between these things. "Here is my honor" versus "Here is my piece of ass girlfriend" aren't even comparable in that scene. Not to mention that ZACK KNOWS THAT CLOUD IS HARD UP FOR TIFA!!!! I mean, wtf... He was there in Nibleheim--he encouraged Cloud to work that shit out! I mean, for real. You can see where this person is coming from?

Because I can't.

At all.

 

[Tennyo]

Ever seen Pearl Harbour?

....Don't tell me that happens.

No, I haven't.

That's basically the entire plot of the movie, Mako.

 

[Loxetta]

Translated via SilentTweak:

That girl
She said she was scared of the natural sky
But it must feel great right?

*other unrelated comments about Angeal's wings and being dead and stuff*

When you meet Aerith
I'm counting on you

And in English he says "Say hi for me" or something to that effect.

Sounds like he knew Cloud would be meeting Aerith sooner or later (he probably expected Cloud to seek her out on his own, as I doubt Zack knew Cloud's memories would go kaplooey) but... no, he did not say it was okay for Cloud to invite Aerith to any erotic romps in the flowerfields. It's stretching it a lot to interpret it that way.

Sounds like another ordinary day here in the LT

 

[Fairheartstrife]

My Crisis Core ending says: "If you see Aerith, say 'hi' for me."

Which is still a pretty big frikkin' IF. I mean, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Cloud may meet her, I mean she was selling her 'flowers' on the street corner. **ahem** But you'd think if it was meant as some sort of "passing my dreams" super sentimental moment, that it wouldn't be an after thought. "Oh, and hey, Cloud, if you see 'that girl' feel free to dip the ole Buster Sword in, for old times sake...."

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Original Japanese is like "Earisu ni attara, yoroshiku na."

Earisu=Aerith
ni=OH BOY PARTICLES
Attara= if you meet
Yoroshiku= best regards, remember me, be nice to her
na= OH MAN MORE PARTICLES

Since they decided to translate it as 'say hello', they were probably aiming for the 'best regards' translation, I assume.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

It’s a huge stretch to say that Zack officially gave Cloud permission to shag Aeris.


Zack is dying. His last wish is to see Aeris. He knows Cloud may not make it, he knows Cloud doesn’t even know Aeris, doesn’t even have an inkling of what she looks like let alone anything else.

The “if you see Aeris” line is really more for the audience. We are supposed to make the connection and we are the ones who see fate throw them in each other’s paths. But Zack himself doesn’t consciously entrust Aeris to Cloud. That’s ridiculous.
It’s simply a vocalization of Zack’s last wish to see Aeris. It’s not a rational request from Cloud.

War movies use this same shit all the time. Guy dies with his intestines hanging out saying “my wife, give this to my wife” and the other guy holding his hand is like…yeah sure buddy, while he’s sitting there WTFing.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

War movies use this same shit all the time. Guy dies with his intestines hanging out saying “my wife, give this to my wife” and the other guy holding his hand is like…yeah sure buddy, while he’s sitting there WTFing.

Zack: "Cloud...give my regards to Aerith"
Cloud: *gets Zack's memories* "THAT'S Aerith?"
Zack: "Brown-haired chick? Yeah that's her, give her my regards."
Cloud: "I'll be giving her something alright, yowza yowza!"
Zack: "Hey, she's my girl!"
Cloud: "In about five minutes you'll be dead, so that won't be a problem much longer."
Zack: "I hate you, you bastard!"
Cloud: "BTW, you aren't gonna be needing this sword anymore, right? Being dead and all."
Zack: "Come back, I'm not dead yet!"
Cloud: "Oh Zack, you will be missed. I'll take good care of Aerith for you, *very* good care. And thanks for the sword buddy!"
Zack: "You're lucky I'm dying here, jackass! Yeah you'd better walk away!"

Yup, Cloud's a true friend, Zack sacrifices himself to save Cloud's life, and Cloud repays him by stealing his sword and his girlfriend.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Yup, Cloud's a true friend, Zack sacrifices himself to save Cloud's life, and Cloud repays him by stealing his sword and his girlfriend.

I have no massive emotional investment in Cloti or Clerith, but that's one reason why Clerith will never sit well with me.

(And for the record, I don't agree with what my ex-housemate says. I'm just throwing it in here for the sake of discussion. I've tried to get him to come here, but I've had no luck so far. )

And even if Zack said and meant it in such a strange way, the end of Advent Children Complete - Zack and Aerith walking away together, and the Buster Sword placed in the church - seem pretty indicative to me of what both the storywriters and Cloud think of the LTD.

 

[Raquelborn]

To make that GIGANTIC leap from "carry on my dreams" to "ass-shag my girlfriend" you'd have to assume that Zack knew Cloud would even MEET Aerith--whom Zack wasn't sure was still even waiting for HIM... not to mention her whereabouts.

There's not even a fine line between these things. "Here is my honor" versus "Here is my piece of ass girlfriend" aren't even comparable in that scene. Not to mention that ZACK KNOWS THAT CLOUD IS HARD UP FOR TIFA!!!! I mean, wtf... He was there in Nibleheim--he encouraged Cloud to work that shit out! I mean, for real. You can see where this person is coming from?

Because I can't.

At all.

Yeah, to an extent.

 

[Ryushikaze]

She has been for at least 3 years and that's not even considering the years prior to the events of the original game. That's about ages 2-5 of Marlene's life? As the only caring grown woman around Marlene at such a young age (when child-mother bonds finish forming), I think it's safe to say she certainly does view Tifa as pretty much her own mother. Cloud's the boyfriend.

(Though Marlene seems to be taking care of Tifa in AC/C. Bless.)

There's also Jessie.

But I don't think Marlene thinks of Tifa as 'mom' so much as 'Cool older sister', though it boils down to the same thing in a lot of ways.

I think that's interesting actually. Zack wanted Cloud to take his sword, carry on his honour, live out his dream of being a hero; so why not take Aerith too? I doubt the scene itself is trying to convey *nudge nudge go get my girlfriend* though.

Not in the slightest. It's a reaffirmation of Zack trying to see Aerith again.

Just an off-note, I've read a couple of fanfics that mention Marlene starting to call Tifa "mama" or "mom", etc, after the events of AC. And I just can't see it, TBH. I can't see Marlene calling Tifa "Mom". Tifa takes care of her sure, but....I just can't see the actual word being used for Tifa. I'll await someone making a "milf" joke now....

No no, now it's time for a HOSILF joke.

It’s a huge stretch to say that Zack officially gave Cloud permission to shag Aeris.


Zack is dying. His last wish is to see Aeris. He knows Cloud may not make it, he knows Cloud doesn’t even know Aeris, doesn’t even have an inkling of what she looks like let alone anything else.

The “if you see Aeris” line is really more for the audience. We are supposed to make the connection and we are the ones who see fate throw them in each other’s paths. But Zack himself doesn’t consciously entrust Aeris to Cloud. That’s ridiculous.
It’s simply a vocalization of Zack’s last wish to see Aeris. It’s not a rational request from Cloud.

War movies use this same shit all the time. Guy dies with his intestines hanging out saying “my wife, give this to my wife” and the other guy holding his hand is like…yeah sure buddy, while he’s sitting there WTFing.

"He told me to get it to you by any means necessary. And so I took that buster sword, and I hid it the only place I knew they'd never look. It was a bad idea, but I panicked. I'm still amazed it fit. Don't worry, I cleansed it with Firaga, it's clean."

 

[Mantichorus]

OK, thanks for correcting me guys. I shall now return you to your regular programming, after this message:

In pairing wars, I am the Swiss - I claim to be neutral, and I launder the money for both sides to keep the war going for a few more years.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

"He told me to get it to you by any means necessary. And so I took that buster sword, and I hid it the only place I knew they'd never look. It was a bad idea, but I panicked. I'm still amazed it fit. Don't worry, I cleansed it with Firaga, it's clean."

Aside from the 'ew' factor here...

The Buster Sword was a huge deal for Zack. It was a memento of Angeal and honor and all the things Zack aspired to. It was a pretty important thing--which is why his passing it to Cloud is such a tear-jerking scene... so I guess my question/point is wouldn't Aerith have recognized it?

Cloud carried the damn thing. You'd think there would be some sort of "Hey, pal, where the hell did you get that?"

I know FFVII came before CC, but if they do a re-make, that's something that I'd be curious to see addressed.

 

[Mantichorus]

The Buster Sword was a huge deal for Zack. It was a memento of Angeal and honor and all the things Zack aspired to. It was a pretty important thing--which is why his passing it to Cloud is such a tear-jerking scene... so I guess my question/point is wouldn't Aerith have recognized it?

Cloud carried the damn thing. You'd think there would be some sort of "Hey, pal, where the hell did you get that?"

I know FFVII came before CC, but if they do a re-make, that's something that I'd be curious to see addressed.

...Wow, that's freaky. I pretty much said something similar in the remake thread a few minutes ago.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Well, Zack didn't use the Buster Sword much, right? So perhaps he didn't take it with him when he went to see Aerith, so it could be that she hadn't seen it before? And also, if she had, it could be possible that Zack didn't tell her who the Buster Sword belonged to, or its significance. Or perhaps she assumed that all SOLDIERs carried outlandish weapons, since they weren't "normal"?

 

[Mantichorus]

Well, Zack didn't use the Buster Sword much, right? So perhaps he didn't take it with him when he went to see Aerith, so it could be that she hadn't seen it before? And also, if she had, it could be possible that Zack didn't tell her who the Buster Sword belonged to, or its significance. Or perhaps she assumed that all SOLDIERs carried outlandish weapons, since they weren't "normal"?

No, there's a scene in Crisis Core where Zack's taken the Buster Sword to Aerith's church. But only to show off his new haircut.

But yeah, she may have assumed that it was a standardised SOLDIER weapon.

 

[Shadowfox]

The Buster Sword was a huge deal for Zack. It was a memento of Angeal and honor and all the things Zack aspired to. It was a pretty important thing--which is why his passing it to Cloud is such a tear-jerking scene... so I guess my question/point is wouldn't Aerith have recognized it?

Cloud carried the damn thing. You'd think there would be some sort of "Hey, pal, where the hell did you get that?"

I think she most likely did recognise it. Why she didn't make any mention about it could probably be explained away as her perhaps thinking that Buster swords were a dime a dozen, or as her being swept up in the euphoria of "omg, you're just like my ex, right down to the huge phallic symbol!"

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Zack is sobbing in her church after he gets the sword. He just killed Angeal, so I'm pretty sure that she knows what the sword signifies. Unless Aerith is the biggest flake in the world and completely ignored Zack's pain in favor of, oh, I don't know, flower placement...

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Actually, you're right Manti, I forgot about that scene. @ FHS, I'm sure Zack told her about Angeal, but he didn't necessarily tell her about the sword, right? It's nowhere to be seen in the scene where he's sobbing in her church.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

That's a pretty big chunk of "we didn't see it, so it didn't happen". Up until that point Zack had only carried his standard issue blade and suddenly he has a seven foot broadsword that he receives from his mentor as he DIES (passing on his legacy) and he doesn't mention it? Ok...

I can acknowledge the ambiguity of that event, sure. It just doesn't set well with good storytelling and plot development.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

Hey, I read you. I'm just trying to cover their butts.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Okay... I was only planning to lurk for some 3 pages or so because I didn't want to do any senseless, drive-by posting... but...

"He told me to get it to you by any means necessary. And so I took that buster sword, and I hid it the only place I knew they'd never look. It was a bad idea, but I panicked. I'm still amazed it fit. Don't worry, I cleansed it with Firaga, it's clean."

...this. I don't get it. What does it mean?

Btw, my Clerith ex-housie insists that Zack's voiceover as Cloud is shown dragging the Buster Sword towards Midgar can be interpreted as him "not minding" if Cloud dates her (as he is "commending her to his care" + he is Zack's "living legacy"). " Thoughts?

Well, your ex-housie is a Clerith. I'm not surprised such an interpretation came up from the saddest, most awesome scene in all of FFVII (yes, I am a biased Zack's death > Aerith's death supporter).

He told Cloud to "say hi" to Aerith "if he meets her". Yup, he totally wants Cloud and Aerith to have lots of little Kingdom Hearts heroes...

As for me, I interpret it as Zack dying and simply asking Cloud to send Aerith his regards if he meets her. Cloud is his living legacy not replacement. Cloud himself acknowledges this

Spoiler

as shown in the ending-ending of ACC

.

The person whom Zack entrusted Aerith to is Tseng. Just because it wasn't in a fancy, dramatic, ending cutscene doesn't mean it didn't happen. Zack told Tseng to look after/take care of Aerith. I believe this was after he made those wagon/s for her and right before the mission to Nibelheim.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's a pretty big chunk of "we didn't see it, so it didn't happen". Up until that point Zack had only carried his standard issue blade and suddenly he has a seven foot broadsword that he receives from his mentor as he DIES (passing on his legacy) and he doesn't mention it? Ok...

I can acknowledge the ambiguity of that event, sure. It just doesn't set well with good storytelling and plot development.

For me, it fits perfectly in line with the 'Aerith cannot bring herself to admit Zack's passing and is coping psychologically' frame of mind, so in a remake, all it would take are a few extra lines here and there that say nothing til the end, like 'Is that swo- no, nevermind.' and such.

Oh, and Meibito, it's a reference to Pulp Fiction and various other movies where precious momentos are stored inside people's bodily cavities to keep them from being discovered.