So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

I guess they aren't as sure about Clerith as I thought they would be.

 

[Makoeyes987]

She must not have studied too hard, because anyone and their mom can see that it's 3rd Person Restricted. You don't even need to have a Master's in Lit to see it. Just a basic high school diploma. The story is from Aerith's POV. It's all her perspective, in the 3rd person. There's no way of spinning that. It's all Aerith's thought and perspective. Not a detached, omnipotent narrator.

 

[Dashell]

She must not have studied too hard, because anyone and their mom can see that it's 3rd Person Restricted. You don't even need to have a Master's in Lit to see it. Just a basic high school diploma. The story is from Aerith's POV. It's all her perspective, in the 3rd person. There's no way of spinning that. It's all Aerith's thought and perspective. Not a detached, omnipotent narrator.

Yes but you see I... she said... the thing is...

SHUT UP

*runs off crying*

 

[Makoeyes987]

That was directed at Isabella, FYI

And there's nothing more to it. It's just basic common sense. Is the narrator narrating only from the perspective of Aerith and her feelings? Yes. Is the narrator narrating in the 3rd person? Yes.

Bingo. 3rd Person Restricted. It's a 3rd Person Narrator who's restricted by the knowledge and subjective experience of Aerith and Sephiroth. To prove otherwise would require you to find an instance of where the narrator knows something or is aware of something that is beyond the scope and capability of the restricted persona, or if the narration goes beyond the scope of the persona and into something else.

 

[Isabella]

That was directed at Isabella, FYI

And there's nothing more to it. It's just basic common sense. Is the narrator narrating only from the perspective of Aerith and her feelings? Yes. Is the narrator narrating in the 3rd person? Yes.

Bingo. 3rd Person Restricted. It's a 3rd Person Narrator who's restricted by the knowledge and subjective experience of Aerith and Sephiroth. To prove otherwise would require you to find an instance of where the narrator knows something or is aware of something that is beyond the scope and capability of the restricted persona, or if the narration goes beyond the scope of the persona and into something else.

Though I'm amazed at how many people have no idea what we're talking about when we bring this up. What are they teaching kids these day?

 

[Dashell]

Well I know but I feel stupid when I'm lured in by arguments that sound intelligent but are wrong. But it's not the first time it's happened... damn Jehovah's Witnesses and their citing of evidence in the bible and such.

I thought I was the last person to reply there and couldn't double post, but I wasn't... so there I retracted my earlier statement

I do still think koibito was used just to keep the love triangle going though. Or again, Nojima and Nomura are trolling XD

Though I'm amazed at how many people have no idea what we're talking about when we bring this up. What are they teaching kids these day?

The thing is... see I... it's been a while since I... I used to get good grades in English but I...


SHUT UP!

*runs off crying again*

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I know but I feel stupid when I'm lured in by arguments that sound intelligent but are wrong. But it's not the first time it's happened... damn Jehovah's Witnesses and their citing of evidence in the bible and such.

I make it a point never to believe anyone who knocks on my door before 11am on a Saturday or Sunday and wakes me up. Period. Hell, I don't even answer the door

I do still think koibito was used just to keep the love triangle going though. Or again, Nojima and Nomura are trolling XD

Perhaps. But it's no big secret that Aerith loves Cloud. At all. I think the koibito thing is more of a Western fandom debate because 'koibito' is just common language for "lover" in Japan. It's not that surprising. It was more earth shattering in the Reunion Files since that was a book quote from Nomura himself regarding Tifa's character and relation to Cloud.

 

[Dashell]

I make it a point never to believe anyone who knocks on my door before 11am on a Saturday or Sunday and wakes me up. Period. Hell, I don't even answer the door

Well in my case they came by at 2 on a Tuesday and the night before I had actually... well done something I hadn't done in a long time ... I talked to God and said if he's there I want him to point me in the right direction. It seemed more like fate if anything.

It was more earth shattering in the Reunion Files since that was a book quote from Nomura himself regarding Tifa's character and relation to Cloud.

BUT CLOUD'S NAME WASN'T USED YOU RABID

 

[Strangelove]

Literary terms aren't rules. They're just names

Aerith obviously suffers from the serious Japanese medical condition known as 'mousou', where the patient has delusions of stuff that isn't real. I know this because. Just because.

Spoiler: Just look at this authentic warning poster

Incidently, 'mousou' is written as 'thinking of [loving] a dead woman' (亡き女を想う＝妄&#24819　

On an actual subject, did anyone ever talk about the structure of that sentence as a whole? You have friend and lover [then kind of trailing off with an implied 'and...'], then '----' followed by 'symbol of what is important'. Could you read that as Cloud being that symbol who represents for her those things (friends, lovers, and possibly unmentioned others)?

 

[Dashell]

Before I answer that I believe someone promised me they'd say something if the word koibito was used again (Do you remember what it was?)

 

[Makoeyes987]

BUT CLOUD'S NAME WASN'T USED YOU RABID

It amuses me how people try to use that argument but then can't give a single example of who Tifa has been canonically shown to have feelings for as a lover, aside from Cloud.

And stop making sense, hito. People are trying to twist the words around. You aren't helping.

 

[mentaz]

Oh dear, people don't get what 3rd person restricted narrative is, or simply read koibito and Cloud in the same sentence and made their judgment? Come on, english is not even my first language I understood CoL at the first try.

 

[Strangelove]

I think the koibito thing is more of a Western fandom debate because 'koibito' is just common language for "lover" in Japan.

You've got it all wrong. Koibito means whatever you want it to mean! Nice person, unrequited lover, stupid big-breasted whore who can't take a hint. It's open to interpretation.



No, seriously. The slogan for Lotte (they make chocolate) is 'your mouth's koibito', so it obviously can't mean anything romantic.

No, seriously seriously this time Japanese fans debated it as well. Like how after making this big thing over Aerith and Zack in CC they suddenly put something like that.

 

[Dashell]

You've got it all wrong. Koibito means whatever you want it to mean! Nice person, unrequited lover, stupid big-breasted whore who can't take a hint. It's open to interpretation.

THANK YOU!

No, seriously seriously this time Japanese fans debated it as well. Like how after making this big thing over Aerith and Zack in CC they suddenly put something like that.

They're "throwing Clerith a bone"
But that's interesting... is it true that most Japanese fans like Cloud X Aerith? ... I'm always hearing that and that Cloti is just a Western thing.

 

[Strangelove]

I think throwing Clerith/Aerith fans, who were famously angry about the whole "let's kill Aerith and bring in Tifa" thing, a bone makes more sense than them throwing Cloti bones to suppress some kind of imagined uprising/boycott. As far as I know, the only people (Japanese) C/T fans have caused trouble with is C/A fans

Lately A/Z seems more popular, but maybe that was because of CC. All this 'this couple is more popular' stuff just sounds anecdotal 'my friend said...'.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Either way, the context doesn't have much impact on this quote. Even if we take the statement "Cloud is the woman's friend, koibito" as being ONLY Aerith's understanding of their relationship (regardless of the fact that this same narrator notes when something is Aerith's thoughts versus what IS), they can't possibly make the further assumption that Aerith would have no justifiable reason to refer to Cloud as her koibito other than her sentiments towards him? "Oh, I WISH this guy was my boyfriend, so I'm just gonna call him that." Seriously?

1- WAS. PAST TENSE. Cloud WAS the woman's beloved and friend.
2- Yes, we are not making an assumption that Aerith 'has no justifiable reason other than her own reason,' and in fact, you are the one assuming there is another reason, aside from the only reason we've seen within canon.
3- If you take it as 'lover,' it's still flawed as there was no relationship when they were alive.
4- Hence, Beloved.
5- Again, PAST TENSE.
So Cloud WAS.
But in the RF quote, Tifa IS.
Oh, and 6- 3rd Restricted subjective.

And Quex, CoLW doesn't say who the woman is either, so if you wish to hoist that petard, expect a wedgy in return.

 

[Dashell]

4- Hence, Beloved.

BUT
Beloved and lover are synonyms,

Main Entry: beloved
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: someone adored
Synonyms: baby*, beau, boyfriend, darling, dear, dearest, fiancé, first and last, flame, girlfriend, heartbeat, heartthrob, honey, idol, inamorato, love, love of my life, lover, number one, numero uno, object of affection, one and only, pet*, prize, rave*, significant other, steady, sugar*, sweetheart, tootsie, treasure, true love

All though I agree that lover would imply an active relationship where as beloved ... not so much...

 

[Tennyo]

I think throwing Clerith/Aerith fans, who were famously angry about the whole "let's kill Aerith and bring in Tifa" thing, a bone makes more sense than them throwing Cloti bones to suppress some kind of imagined uprising/boycott. As far as I know, the only people (Japanese) C/T fans have caused trouble with is C/A fans

Lately A/Z seems more popular, but maybe that was because of CC. All this 'this couple is more popular' stuff just sounds anecdotal 'my friend said...'.

more populare =/= canon or correct, imho

 

[Isabella]

I do still think koibito was used just to keep the love triangle going though.

About this ... do people think Nomura's use of "koibito" in the RF was calculated, or an off-the-cuff remark? It's one thing to use a word in a written piece, and another to use it in an interview.

 

[Dashell]

EDIT:

oh wait you're just asking a general question?.. I think it was calculated.. I mean I don't think it was a slip up if that's what you're asking. I really think they've put enough info out there to say that Cloud X Tifa is canon and they're doing in on purpose. The problem is Cloud and Tifa have never had a kiss scene so clearly it's not canon or some such.

 

[Isabella]

Not Cleriths, just in general. You had said you thought Nomura used the word to keep the LT going. I could see that being the case for Nojima, but it seems less likely to me if it was said in an interview. But I don't know. Just putting my thoughts out there.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah sorry read my edit, I'm a little paranoid over here I guess

 

[Ryushikaze]

BUT
Beloved and lover are synonyms,


All though I agree that lover would imply an active relationship where as beloved ... not so much...

That is the key difference between Lover and Beloved and one way in which they are not synonymous. Hence my point that beloved is far more contextually appropriate here.

 

[Dashell]

Are they ever gonna have an official translation of CoL?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I have to say, I really, really hate these topics.