So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Tennyo]

You know, if SE really hates us and gives us nothing, why do our versions of their games usually have extra stuff in them that the original JP version didn't? Stuff that Japanese fans will have to dish out extra money for just to enjoy in addition to their original version?

Maybe they haven't released this stuff here because they think it won't sell well. Ever think of the fact that maybe it just won't?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

You know, if SE really hates us and gives us nothing, why do our versions of their games usually have extra stuff in them that the original JP version didn't? Stuff that Japanese fans will have to dish out extra money for just to enjoy in addition to their original version?

Because once they do that they re-release in Japanese with all the stuff we got and more.

Maybe they haven't released this stuff here because they think it won't sell well. Ever think of the fact that maybe it just won't?

And why wouldn't it? They haven't tried it, how would they know?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

And why wouldn't it? They haven't tried it, how would they know?

Sales projections, predictions and whatnot. Companies and corporations really can't make 'we didn't try it so WHO KNOWS' a part of standard business procedure. That's what kinda causes bankruptcies.

While I think that they should at least try to market ONE of those things here to test the waters, its not hard to see why they don't do a lot of things they do here; because enough people aren't interested enough to make a profit. It costs a SHITLOAD of money for the Japanese market to break out a product here. They have to make sure they get all of that money back and more.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Translating an ultimania shouldn't really be anywhere near as high an operating expense as translating a whole video game though. The latter requires all kinds of reprogramming and marketing and crap, whereas the former is just translating from one language to another. What's more, they could just run the ultimania in whatever limited run they wanted and probably charge whatever price they wanted to it since there are some fans who'd be willing to pay extortionate amounts of money for one.

I think they probably are kind of afraid of making a huge loss on translations and such, but I also think they probably have a fair amount of contempt for western markets.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm not arguing that the Ultimanias would be a business loss perse, but I'm just arguing the logic applies for a lot of Japanese stuff. Western audiences as a whole just aren't interested in what Japan has enough to make it profitable on a large scale. I think the Ultimanias would be great as a limited edition sort of thing, but a full scale distribution may not generate enough profit to be worth it.

 

[Tennyo]

Because once they do that they re-release in Japanese with all the stuff we got and more.

That was my point. The Japanese fans have to pay extra to get more. Why don't they just get it all first like we do?

And why wouldn't it? They haven't tried it, how would they know?

Market research, focus groups, sales figures of similar products sold in the past, etc. etc.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Because if game companies can make a profit by charging people twice for the same content, they will They do that over here too; haven't you observed the numerous re-re-releases of MGS stuff for example?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Translating an ultimania shouldn't really be anywhere near as high an operating expense as translating a whole video game though. The latter requires all kinds of reprogramming and marketing and crap, whereas the former is just translating from one language to another. What's more, they could just run the ultimania in whatever limited run they wanted and probably charge whatever price they wanted to it since there are some fans who'd be willing to pay extortionate amounts of money for one.

I think they probably are kind of afraid of making a huge loss on translations and such, but I also think they probably have a fair amount of contempt for western markets.

I would argue that it's a contempt for their own markets, actually.

In short, they KNOW their loyal local markets will buy the products. So while we get additional content free as part of our release, they must pay yet again to get that additional product, and yet they buy it, much the same way they must have the latest cell phones and gadgets and such.

The American Marketplace, for all of its flaws, is a bit more relaxed, and possibly more guarded than the Japanese one, even for whizbang technology.
There are many less people wanting to be the purchasers of first batch products, for example, cell phones, for all their whizzbangery, are not nearly as insane as the Japanese market demands, and well, Dragon Quest day.

In short, I posit that the reason that Japan gets the extra stuff isn't because S-E has contempt for us or is terribly worried that we won't buy it, but that they're so sure Japan WILL.

Besides, most of their re-releases still have English dialogue options, because if damn if the JP market doesn't eat up stuff with English in it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Ehh I'd say they have different kinds of contempt for their different markets now that I think about it. They know their own countrymates will buy their games two, three, four times if they like them enough, so they don't bother putting all the special stuff on until later, but by the same token they don't think Western markets are sophisticated enough to deal with a lot of the expanded universe content they give their own markets, so we never see it unless enterprising souls like hito translate it for us. In other words, they know they can count on Japanese consumers buying whatever they put out, and they also count on Western consumers not buying anything that requires banging more than two brain cells together. (It requires reading? Forget it, we're not getting it).

Granted this is a horrible overgeneralisation and there are probably exceptions to everything I've said, but regardless I'd say they're contemptuous of both markets in their own individual ways.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

count on Western consumers not buying anything that requires banging more than two brain cells together. (It requires reading? Forget it, we're not getting it).

Oh come on. I think its just lack of interest. Two different cultures. Its not that I'm not intelligent enough to buy or understand the fifth edition of the creators commentary on the romantic triangle of Love Hito Hito Fungai or whatever. I just don't give a shit.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I dunno, given the huge amount of manga that gets published over here I think there probably is a fair amount of contempt involved.

 

[Tennyo]

Because if game companies can make a profit by charging people twice for the same content, they will They do that over here too; haven't you observed the numerous re-re-releases of MGS stuff for example?

I know this, but I'm just trying to point out that it's not a lack of love that dictates any of this.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I dunno, given the huge amount of manga that gets published over here I think there probably is a fair amount of contempt involved.

Sure, because there's a market. I'm not arguing any other point like the contempt issue, but I don't like the assumption that Japanese market strategy assumes that their popular culture is more intelligent than ours (as anyone with a working knowledge of Eastern culture can tell you; it isn't. It's just different).

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think it's true to a certain extent though. Maybe intelligence was the wrong identifier to use, but it seems like a lot of stuff that requires a lot of effort out of the reader/gamer simply doesn't get released over here. The SMT series is another great example - a lot of stuff in that series never even makes it over to Western shores, probably just because it's so legendarily difficult. It's not an isolated case; there's a long history of Japanese developers assuming a game is too hard for Western audiences and either toning it down (FFIV) or not releasing it at all (SMB2).

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Sure, but its not because we're not smart enough or whatever, its just more because they figure (and they're correct in some cases) in that we're not interested or give enough of a shit about it to do so. There are plenty of ball bustingly difficult games and other hobbies that Westerners partake in willingly, but the Japanese figure that certain things we're just not interested in doing.

I consider myself a REASONABLY SMART GUY, but there are certain challenges that I pass over, not because I feel I'm not smart enough to overcome, but I just don't give enough of a shit to do. But that's not to say I don't like challenge or intellectual stimulation at all.

I'm just saying that Japanese markets just try their best to predict that factor, when and when not to release something.

 

[Eerie]

Ryu hit the nail; I was talking about the "goodies" market with a friend yesterday. We're probably going to end up like Japan one day, but we're far, very very far from what Japan can make for now. As I said, the HP franchise, for example, is still very far away from what Japan does for its big franchises.

Why? Because the Japaneses buy ALL KIND OF CRAP. And seriously, I don't think that things such as Ultimanias or other books around the game would interest enough people in the Western fandom. If you look at it, only a very small part of the people who actually played FFVII and watched AC/C would buy them.

The Western market is used to have everything told in the original game/DVD etc. It does require effort and investment to go buy those books and read them. Not that we're less intelligent or whatnot; it's that we're not used to make that effort, generally speaking.

We're not used, like the Japaneses, to literally sink under the goodies (books, figurines, plushies, stickers, cardasses, cans of soda, mousepads, cups, pillows, etc, etc). Only a very few merchandising makes its way to the Western fandom and just because a few will buy it doesn't mean that it's viable to sell them here.

As for difficult games, you can't blame them for not wanting to sell them here; right now in Western games, the trend is to make gamers think they're playing a difficult game and that they're OMG so l337 when it's borderline noobish - would they be thrown in some old games, they wouldn't know how to play. Yes, I'm an old gamer who looks sceptically at the gaming industry That's what the MMORPGs taught me anyway XD

 

[Dashell]

Wasn't there a love triangle going on at some point?

EDIT:
oh god, I just remembered, I had a dream last night where Square published some kind of weird sex novel involving (wait for it...)


Barret and Tifa O_O
I don't remember much just him kissing her neck while groping her and... uh... yeah that was probably TMI. I just remember thinking, "Wow those Cleriths were right, Tifa and Barret are romantically involved.".. even though I don't think they ever said that specifically...

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wasn't there a love triangle going on at some point?

EDIT:
oh god, I just remembered, I had a dream last night where Square published some kind of weird sex novel involving (wait for it...)


Barret and Tifa O_O
I don't remember much just him kissing her neck while groping her and... uh... yeah that was probably TMI. I just remember thinking, "Wow those Cleriths were right, Tifa and Barret are romantically involved.".. even though I don't think they ever said that specifically...

The Clerith have said that on several occasions.
It is their go to 'Not Cloud' pairing for her.

And Aaron, I'd say it's not because they think we are dumb, more that they think we would be uninterested, same as Japan is largely uninterested in FPS and classic Western RPG games.
Though the Ultima games actually did pretty damn well in Japan, but they are rather the exception than the rule, I think.

 

[Cthulhu]

They should just translate and publish the ultimania's in Western countries, peri0d. Game / Strategy guides are published often and sold well too. They should just do a trial with one of their games (FFVII) and be done with it. If it doesn't sell well, at least they've tried it.

They translate their games properly (nowadays) and often add loads of extras to it as well for the western releases, so an ultimania translation and republishing in the west should be doable as well - and probably a lot cheaper than a game translation and such as well.

As for difficult games, there should be moar of those. Wasn't Ninja Gaiden (or whatever) considered almost ridiculously difficult back when, and wasn't it highly praised for that?

 

[Madame Mayor]

I consider myself a REASONABLY SMART GUY, but there are certain challenges that I pass over, not because I feel I'm not smart enough to overcome, but I just don't give enough of a shit to do. But that's not to say I don't like challenge or intellectual stimulation at all.

This. It's exactly how I feel with lots of games. I like challenge up to a point, and there are a lot of games I know I could do more with, I just cba.

I think they don't publish them in English because they know all the diehard English fans will buy the Japanese versions anyways. How many people here own the original or new version of the 10th Anniv? I count as one, I know Ryu has a copy too.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't know if people wouldn't be interested in them. There are all those Halo/etc. books released. Albeit not quite the same as Ultimanias, more along the lines of OTWTAS.

But Ultimanias, with the exceptions of the Omega/Alpha/Anniversary ones, are still strategy guides. They could just add all this story-related stuff to the normal strategy guides they release for every game anyway. Then people who want the background/story stuff can get it, and people who just want get through the game can just use the guidebook part.

That might not work for older games, since they already had strategy guides released and there wouldn't be a need for another, but it's an idea for future games.

I think they don't publish them in English because they know all the diehard English fans will buy the Japanese versions anyways. How many people here own the original or new version of the 10th Anniv? I count as one, I know Ryu has a copy too.

I have both

But unlike say the Reunion Files, which already included a translation, it's not the same as getting one you can actually understand.

You know, if SE really hates us and gives us nothing, why do our versions of their games usually have extra stuff in them that the original JP version didn't? Stuff that Japanese fans will have to dish out extra money for just to enjoy in addition to their original version?

Maybe they haven't released this stuff here because they think it won't sell well. Ever think of the fact that maybe it just won't?

They definitely don't seem to think Western gamers need easier games, since they keep adding higher difficulties to the English releases.

But if Japanese fans want these, they have to pay either the full price again (which is already higher for some Square Enix games than it is for others) or even more. Although they don't sell as well as the original games. From Wikipedia, FFXII sold 2320000 units while International only sold 130000 units. FFX sold 2350000, but Int. sold 300000. People who want to just play the game and see the story will go for the original version, and if they want more gameplay challenges (or I guess practice their English) will get the International version. It's still only a small section of the market who buy these things.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't know if people wouldn't be interested in them. There are all those Halo/etc. books released. Albeit not quite the same as Ultimanias, more along the lines of OTWTAS.

Yeah, but Halo has a much, much, much bigger market than Final Fantasy in America, hell, if not almost everywhere. Something like Halo could make almost anything (and they're getting close to) and it'll sell. Halo is one of the most popular and highest selling things in any genre, period.

 

[Tennyo]

Here's what I think. People want games to be fun and not feel like work. Sometimes tougher games can feel like work. The North American audience is used to entertainment that is fun.

Too hard and people won't have the patience to go on, whether they are smart enough to do it or not.

That said I agree, sure some of us in this forum, and maybe a couple other forums, want these books, but the vast majority of the US population? Probably not so much.

Hell there are FFVII fans who still haven't bothered to get all the Comp games, or even AC/ACC. What does that tell you?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I did not know LTD threads could turn into "Why Squeenix is not bringing over Ultimanias" threads.

 

[Tennyo]

Well, it has.