So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I think the LTD conclusion is Clerith, because Tifa is a slut. We know she is a slut because she has big boobs. Aeris has small boobs, therefore she is not a slut. Therefore FF7 is Clerith.

Also, I identify more with Aeris than with Tifa, because I am a special snowflake with small boobs, and Aeris is a special snowflake with small boobs. Tifa is not special enough for me to want to be her, and her boobs are quite large. And that is why FF7 is a Clerith story.

LTD: SOLVED.

 

[paoo]

^ no u

It's not JUST that they live together. It's that they live together, raise two children, one of whom is unquestionably 'theirs' together, the man asked the woman- in a roundabout way- to move in with him, the woman is an important woman to the man and the mother of their family, the woman sees the man as like a young father and their kids as his kids, they have spoken of their mutual feelings to each other, etc. etc. etc. etc.

And WHY in the first place would they like to add Denzel to the story, who becomes a part of the family? And why are Cloud and Tifa supposted to be parents? Father and mother? And why not Barret and Tifa then, if Cloud and Tifa's feelings for eachother means nothing? Come on, Cloud and Tifa are the parents of the family, who live together, for a reason.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's another major point- Barret not only is not referred to as part of the family by the creators, but he himself does not see him as part of the 'family', and keeps keeping himself 'apart from' rather than 'a part of' the 7th heaven grouping. From going off on his own and telling Cloud and Tifa their destinies lay at 7th Heaven together, to asking Cloud to take a gift to Marlene for him, he's not actively a part of the 7th heaven unit at all.

Then there's the opinions of their friends, such as fellow common law woman haver, Cid, who referred to 'Tifa whipping Cloud into shape' as 'the woman wearing the pants', a phrase which really only gets used in relation to couples.

So, with all this sledgehinting at C/T, I ask, what sort of proof is NECESSARY to show they're in a relationship? They're in a position only 5 other 'major couples' in FF history I can recall ATM can claim- they're raising kids, TOGETHER.
Well, 6, if you count the Rabanastre gang as 'kids', but that's probably stretching it.

For the record, said couples are
Cecil and Rosa
Kain and Wife
Cid and Hildegarde
Wakka and Lulu
Laguna and Raine- Ellone, natch.
And I could spread that further to Gen Carroway and Julia, Cluya and Cecillia and Bartz's parents- Zack's too- but that's progressing too far from main and playable characters.

Again, that's only including couples we see 'actively' raising kids as a couple, so while Cid10, Cid12, and CidT obviously had kids, as did Pres. ShinRa, we never see their other, the 'raising of kids' was not considered important for their tale.

 

[Strangelove]

Because for some, to have their "preference" NOT be the "OMG TWU WUV" story is painful. It's not about which couple is better, or more wonderful, or specially magical-- it's about which couple IS. Period.

I think that was my slight objection to people taking Nojima's quote on Cloud and Tifa's relationship troubles as some kind of confirmation that they aren't or cannot be a couple or something.

If you were a shipper, I guess 'Cloud and Tifa have problems' might be a blow if you were hoping for sunshine and puppies. But having problems doesn't negate a fictional couple being together. Otherwise there's hundreds/thousands of other pairs who aren't really together

On that note, how did people read into 'premise' in that quote? I assumed that was talking about, since Cloud has distanced himself in AC, it was a prerequisite that things would go wrong in CoT. Discuss.

Discuss? I mean say you agree and validate my thoughts

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I agree and validate your thoughts.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

@Ryu— I would add Gast and Ifalna to that broader list, even if they only "raised" Aeris together for 20 days. But the entirety of their relationship was expressed through the existance of Aeris.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Actually, most main FF pairs don't have kids or are married. Are Squall and Rinoa married? Tidus and Yuna? Vaan and Penelo? Locke and Celes? I don't even remember if the last two have been shown/implied to have kiss. I know Penelo gives Vaan a kiss on the cheek at the end of Revenant Wings, does L/C have anything like that?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Squall/Rinoa, Tidus/Yuna, and Vaan/Penelo are all too young to have kids and still retain a semblance of intelligence.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I don't get this either.

The "heads coming together" and "embracing" and fading to black = what happens under highwind, but we never look at C/T the same.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think that was my slight objection to people taking Nojima's quote on Cloud and Tifa's relationship troubles as some kind of confirmation that they aren't or cannot be a couple or something.

If you were a shipper, I guess 'Cloud and Tifa have problems' might be a blow if you were hoping for sunshine and puppies. But having problems doesn't negate a fictional couple being together. Otherwise there's hundreds/thousands of other pairs who aren't really together

Including all other FF couples, really. Quite a blow to that old 'It's fantasy thus fairy tale' logic DesFul used awhile back.

On that note, how did people read into 'premise' in that quote? I assumed that was talking about, since Cloud has distanced himself in AC, it was a prerequisite that things would go wrong in CoT. Discuss.

Discuss? I mean say you agree and validate my thoughts

I'd say Cloud having issues is the premise of CoT like Ani becoming Darth is the premise of the Prequel Trilogy.
Same how FF7 means Zack's death is a premise of Crisis Core.

@Ryu— I would add Gast and Ifalna to that broader list, even if they only "raised" Aeris together for 20 days. But the entirety of their relationship was expressed through the existance of Aeris.

Yeah, they count too, but much like Cluya/Cecillia and the then unnamed Cecil and Lag/Raine and Squall, they'd fall into couples who were further cemented by having (additional) kids, but not having the chance to raise them, though the first did get to raise Theodore for a few years, and the latter Ellone.

Actually, most main FF pairs don't have kids or are married. Are Squall and Rinoa married? Tidus and Yuna? Vaan and Penelo? Locke and Celes? I don't even remember if the last two have been shown/implied to have kiss. I know Penelo gives Vaan a kiss on the cheek at the end of Revenant Wings, does L/C have anything like that?

No, Locke/ Celes doesn't have anything of the sort.
Hell, Cecil and Rosa technically don't have kissing, though they've got the marriage and the kids.

Squall/Rinoa, Tidus/Yuna, and Vaan/Penelo are all too young to have kids and still retain a semblance of intelligence.

Though in V/P's case, the adoption of Rabanasterian orphans would be more than plausible, even with their young ages.
Also, S/R and T/Y has a semblance of intelligence?

The "heads coming together" and "embracing" and fading to black = what happens under highwind, but we never look at C/T the same.

This is what prompted the sort of absurdist standards of 'if we don't see explicit kissing, it never happened' tack I was on a short while ago.

 

[Splintered]

I might be the odd out of the Cloti bunch but I still hold the belief that there isn't meant to be a clear end to the LTD. For all their hints and where they place Cloud and Tifa in each others lives, they've been careful about outright saying, "X and Y are in love with each other." Cloud and Tifa are involved in a way that Aerith never has been and can never be, but it was one that never been described as a directly romantic one- small reference to koibito aside. Some might say that it's because Cloud doesn't like her that way, though I argue it's more of a personality problem that both are too shy and like to take it way too slow. But either way they have yet to have romantic interactions that a "normal" couple would in both real life or ways that couples have been portrayed through older FFs. It's the exact same with Aerith and Cloud, no one is saying anything.

Nomura's got a thing for letting fans interpret things on their own. No one wants to say anything because they think it's better for the fans to let them come up with their own theories. That's just the way they roll and I do think it's more fun, even if it can get extremely frustrating.

Tetsuya Nomura:
What kind of question is that? I've never thought about it. Honestly, I don't care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenarios that we don't mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue.

It would be bullshit to believe that he or any of the staff never thought about this if they had enough thought to put how many birds in the sky. I pretty much translated this into, "We are tremendous assholes and we're never going to give you a direct answer so that you can forever continue your fruitless and annoying squabbles about with girl gets Cloud's, most likely impotent, penis."

((On another note, a part of the rabid Cloti in my smiled. After almost a decade of hearing "Silly Westerner IN JAPAN everyone knows Clerith is canon" and this seems to hint that it's exactly opposite of that.))

If they were wary about touching FFVII again for a sequel, I would bet they would shit their pants if they ever tried to really bring an end to LTD. But no, acting ambiguous is much more advantageous.

The whole idea of people going, "God ur dumb, isn't it obvious Cloti/Clerith is canoN!?" is almost insulting. No, it's not obvious otherwise we wouldn't have dozens of fantardlings arguing the same things over and over again for the past ten years.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I might be the odd out of the Cloti bunch but I still hold the belief that there isn't meant to be a clear end to the LTD. For all their hints and where they place Cloud and Tifa in each others lives, they've been careful about outright saying, "X and Y are in love with each other."

Don't know how Nojima saying he injected his views of love and marriage into Case of Tifa, isn't outright. Same goes for Nomura calling Tifa the lover of Cloud.

The whole idea of people going, "God ur dumb, isn't it obvious Cloti/Clerith is canoN!?" is almost insulting. No, it's not obvious otherwise we wouldn't have dozens of fantardlings arguing the same things over and over again for the past ten years.

...But it is obvious You either have to be uninformed, misinformed, or outright twisting the facts to miss the obvious logical conclusion of the story. It is very obvious. Maybe it wasn't obvious back in 1997, but the times have changed and the Compilation has been crystal clear as to who Cloud loves and is starting a life with.

 

[Dashell]

Twelve years

And that interview is kind of old. I think the new one where it's confirmed that they're in a relationship should take prescience (is that the right word?)

And Mako beat me to it

 

[Strangelove]

I was sorting through my stuff today and I think I found the magazine with that Nomura interview in

((On another note, a part of the rabid Cloti in my smiled. After almost a decade of hearing "Silly Westerner IN JAPAN everyone knows Clerith is canon" and this seems to hint that it's exactly opposite of that.))

That is a silly argument, because it takes like one good Google search to come up with thread after thread of them flaming each other about it. Most of the arguments are the same as Western fans, except maybe 'koibito means she's a lovely lady'.

 

[Makoeyes987]

How the fuck does "koibito" just mean a lovely lady? LOL at fans twisting their own language.

 

[Dashell]

I was sorting through my stuff today and I think I found the magazine with that Nomura interview in

how old is it?

 

[Strangelove]

Pre-AC, maybe by a couple of months? I didn't look at the date

 

[Dashell]

Yeah he was probably saying that to not spoil it, I think the latest interview is what should be focused on.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

If they were wary about touching FFVII again for a sequel, I would bet they would shit their pants if they ever tried to really bring an end to LTD.

No sequel needed. Crisis Core ended the LTD; even for those brick enough to NOT get it in FVII.

The whole idea of people going, "God ur dumb, isn't it obvious Cloti/Clerith is canoN!?" is almost insulting. No, it's not obvious otherwise we wouldn't have dozens of fantardlings arguing the same things over and over again for the past ten years.

Uhm, yes it is obvious. Obvious doesn't negate fantards nor their beliefs. Harmonians argue Harry/Hermione, Roloers argue Storm/Wolverine , etc...

Also, that Nomura quote is quite old, and the leading question was actually regarding Sephiroth's love life and Nomura deflected it, assuming it was a veiled LTD question. Which, as you are using it in an LTD thread, it likely was.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Christians argue there's a God

Ouch, that's cold. Let's be nice. Not all Christians are the equivalent of rapid, fantard Cleriths now

 

[Dashell]

I'd say Cleriths are more like Jehovah's Witnesses. Some people say they're like a cult, they're very happy together, they analyze everything, and whenever you ask them a question, they can pull out any quote from an interview to answer it. Seriously, ask a Witness any question about the bible and they'll start quoting bible passages about it... it's amazing.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd equate them more to Scientologists to be honest.

 

[Dashell]

But you don't have to pay to join

 

[Makoeyes987]

But to join their forum you must surrender free thought, all Cloti avatars, all opinions of enjoying Clerith as a fandom only pairing, and accept that there is only one true canon pairing, and it is Cloud/Aerith, regardless.

I'd say that's a payment right there.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Ouch, that's cold. Let's be nice. Not all Christians are the equivalent of rapid, fantard Cleriths now

Fixed. For equal 'tardness.