So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

And to be a JW you have to cut off contact with anyone who's not a JW, cast aside all funevil, and get up early on Sundays. And if you do they welcome you with open arms.

Also there's several Cleriths there that don't think the couple is canon. KtR, Kimmy and Winter to name a few.

in fact oddly enough, according to a poll, a lot of the big wigs don't think it's canon.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

And to be a JW you have to cut off contact with anyone who's not a JW, cast aside all funevil, and get up early on Sundays. And if you do they welcome you with open arms.

This is bullshit.

I have several--and by several I mean 4--close friends that are JW's and since I'm as faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from bible toting as you can get, I'm calling bullshit when I see bullshit. NONE of them have pressed their beliefs on me, and unless you are being completely silly in the above statement, I'd suggest getting the facts fucking straight.

 

[Tennyo]

Christians argue there's a God, Athiests argue there isn't,

>_< I fail to see how this has anything to do with the LTD. Maybe should just stick to arguing pairings? y/y?

 

[Strangelove]

I knew a JW once.

I fucking hated the bastard, but that had little to do with his religious beliefs. I wish he did have to cut off contact with all non-JW, then I'd never have met him

In other news, you bastards ignored my CoLW dash topic. For shame.

 

[Tennyo]

And to be a JW you have to cut off contact with anyone who's not a JW, cast aside all funevil, and get up early on Sundays. And if you do they welcome you with open arms.

I had a friend while I was growing up who was a Jehovah's Witness. Her and her family didn't have to cut ties with the rest of the world.

Also she married a dude who is Catholic and now goes to a Catholic church, natch. Pretty sure her family didn't disown her.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Not that I have anything relevant to add, but:

that interview is kind of old. I think the new one where it's confirmed that they're in a relationship should take prescience (is that the right word?)

Precedence

 

[KissTheRain]

No, it's not obvious otherwise we wouldn't have dozens of fantardlings arguing the same things over and over again for the past ten years.

I'll be one of the few here that does agree with you. I don't think there is a canon couple of VII and Cloud is single. And it's 12 years and they get new information, but personally I still don't think there is a result.

In other news, you bastards ignored my CoLW dash topic. For shame.

Then repeat, repeat, repeat!

 

[Dashell]

This is bullshit.

I have several--and by several I mean 4--close friends that are JW's and since I'm as faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from bible toting as you can get, I'm calling bullshit when I see bullshit. NONE of them have pressed their beliefs on me, and unless you are being completely silly in the above statement, I'd suggest getting the facts fucking straight.

Actually, you're right, they wouldn't cast YOU aside, but if you were like... go to a rally about something the government did, go to a gay bar, or go skydiving they wouldn't join you (at least the ones I talked to wouldn't). It could lead to them cutting off contact with you but it wouldn't necessarily. (and I'm also not saying YOU would do these things I'm just giving examples) I have heard stories of JWs casting aside their loved ones for one reason or another, ... but this came from when I almost became one and people were trying to show me the evil side of the Witnesses. However if I had become one, I would have probably had to stop talking to some of my girl friends at the time because they're lesbians and the temptation would have been too strong

Honestly, I have nothing but respect for them. Anyone who knows the bible that well deserves it. My mom even sent our pastor over to talk to me and tell me the REAL story of the bible when I was studying with them, and I actually stumped the guy on more than one occasion. I really do believe they have the correct interpretation of the bible as well. It makes sense, I like how they don't believe in hell and actually FOLLOW what the bible says. They don't get involved in government stuff, they don't judge people, if they don't like something, they just leave it.

It's personally not the kind of life I could lead, and my feelings for someone were too strong at the time for me to become one.

Anyways, didn't mean to offend you, sorry
We cool?

Not that I have anything relevant to add, but:

Precedence

Thank you

 

[Isabella]

I don't think there is a canon couple of VII and Cloud is single.

Just wanted to say, even if there were no conclusive canon couple, that doesn't mean Cloud is single. It means that the result is inconclusive. If he were single, that would be conclusive. But because the LTD isn't resolved (theoretically), Cloud being single is just as much an up-in-the-air possibility as him loving Tifa or Aerith.

Just wanted to get that off my chest. Now, back to hito's question. Er, now what was it again hito?

 

[Strangelove]

On an actual subject, did anyone ever talk about the structure of that sentence as a whole? You have friend and lover [then kind of trailing off with an implied 'and...'], then '----' followed by 'symbol of what is important'. Could you read that as Cloud being that symbol who represents for her those things (friends, lovers, and possibly unmentioned others)?

... without necessarily literally being them all?

I didn't bother to re-read the line to see exactly how it was worded, so if I got the wording wrong that's why

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'll be one of the few here that does agree with you. I don't think there is a canon couple of VII and Cloud is single. And it's 12 years and they get new information, but personally I still don't think there is a result.

Cloud is raising children with a woman he asked to live with him, who is an important woman to him, and who considers him the father of her kid, and she is someone's beloved.

WHAT STANDARD OF EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED? That's more concrete than the vast majority of FF pairings out there.

And Quexi, it's quite notable that they say now they don't think either is canon.
Because a few scant years ago, C/A was teh canonz and you would be a dirty heathen to suggest otherwise.
Okay, that's a bit hyperbole, but my point is the party line has officially changed.
And that they even have to have a party line is telling.

And Hitobito, Cloud as a symbol of that which is important without literally being all of them is entirely possible.
Wasn't that point in present tense with the previous examples being past tense, or am I misremembering?

 

[Dashell]

Actually Hito I didn't reply to you because it was over my head (and still is)

And Quexi, it's quite notable that they say now they don't think either is canon.
Because a few scant years ago, C/A was teh canonz and you would be a dirty heathen to suggest otherwise.

Meh maybe they've opened up a little. There were plenty of votes for Clerith though so...

... and what do you mean by party line?

 

[Strangelove]

I remembered where I put the original text

&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12399;&#22899;&#12398;&#21451;&#20154;&#12391;&#12354;&#12426;&#12289;&#24651;&#20154;&#12391;&#12354;&#12426;&#8213;&#8213;&#22823;&#20999;&#12394;&#12418;&#12398;&#12398;&#35937;&#24500;&#12391;&#12354;&#12426;&#12289;&#23432;&#12427;&#12409;&#12365;&#23384;&#22312;&#12384;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290;

There's no real present tense there, just a conjunctive tense (I totally just made up that term right now). Except at the end, when it's past. The way it breaks off between 'koi bito' sounds kind of like it's trailing off or missing something to me. But then those specific descriptions are followed up by a general one (symbol).

And in completely unreliable English

Cloud was her friend, her beloved &#8212; a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.

Actually Hito I didn't reply to you because it was over my head (and still is)

I just find this kind of literary discussion more interesting that "see, they don't get along, lulz sorry Tifa"

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Uhm, yes it is obvious. Obvious doesn't negate fantards nor their beliefs. Harmonians argue Harry/Hermione, Christians argue there's a God, Athiests argue there isn't, RoLoers argue Storm/Wolverine... the list can go on for awhile.

wait what. Why has no one caught this. It may just be me, but RoLo sounds short for ROgue/LOgan, and Rogue is not Storm.

Geez you guys, why am I the only one who noticed this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Meh maybe they've opened up a little. There were plenty of votes for Clerith though so...

I'm not saying they all moved that way, just that it's notable that most of those who do now were unwaveringly adamant that the pink answer was the one valid and true.

... and what do you mean by party line?

I mean Party Line. As in their official handed down from above platform. As in what the bigwigs tell the rank and file to believe.
As in what they decide to tell the lower ranks.
As in their Papal doctrine spread around the diocese.

Thankee, Hito.

And Nini, Ororo. 'RoLo. Natch.

 

[Dashell]

I'm not saying they all moved that way, just that it's notable that most of those who do now were unwaveringly adamant that the pink answer was the one valid and true.

That is interesting. And I guess why debate if you don't think it's canon?

I mean Party Line. As in their official handed down from above platform. As in what the bigwigs tell the rank and file to believe.

But if they don't think it's canon, do they really believe it at all? Now there's a question. I'm assuming we all believe Cloti to be canon?

 

[Splintered]

Cloud is raising children with a woman he asked to live with him, who is an important woman to him, and who considers him the father of her kid, and she is someone's beloved.

WHAT STANDARD OF EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED? That's more concrete than the vast majority of FF pairings out there.

You mean for it to be a canon romantic coupling? A strong difinitive moment where he confirms that yes, he is at the moment romantically in love with her- above anybody else- and that he would like to initiate a romantic relationship. A long time ago before AC came out and there was only a bit of information leaking out, there were dozens of magazine articles on ACF (which were probably not canon but still gave us an idea) that linked Tifa and Cloud as "more than friends, less than lovers."

It is entirely possible for a Clerith fan, who truly believes that his/her fandom is canon, to infer their relationship like that. Or that Cloud is moving on in real life, but he will always romantically love Aerith in his heart. Or that he's her soulmate or whatever.

It's not all that far fetched for someone to actually believe that, nor is it without precedent in the Final Fantasy series. Cloud and Tifa are in a situation that echoes a family where Cloud is the husband and Tifa is the wife, but they jumped the whole romance and moved straight to the familial support. The fact that the most coupl-y thing they truly did together in Case of Tifa was when Tifa asked Cloud in his sleep if he loved her might make Clerith fans believe that even more.

I'm not saying there are no strong hints that Cloud/Tifa is canon. I think the staff gives it to us in the truckloads. But I also think that they still tried to keep the Cloud/Aerith hints alive in the franchise as well. There's always been a spirit of openess in FFVII and that includes the LTD, it's unfair to tell the Cloud/Aerith fans, "no, you and your interpretation is wrong. Go sit in your corner of shame until your obviously crazy headed delusions pass."

wait what. Why has no one caught this. It may just be me, but RoLo sounds short for ROgue/LOgan, and Rogue is not Storm.

Storm's name is Ororo and that has something to do with it, maybe? I dunno. (My little brother loves Storm/Wolverine)

Isn't she married now anyway?

 

[Dashell]

Spintered, have you read the latest interview? It's absolute confirmation, there's no two ways about it.

EDIT
But yeah.. I do agree Cleriths get bashed an awful lot and a lot of it is unnecessary... there's a lot of hate on that forum though. I really wish they'd drop that. People would respect them more for it.

 

[Splintered]

Spintered, have you read the latest interview? It's absolute confirmation, there's no two ways about it.

EDIT
But yeah.. I do agree Cleriths get bashed an awful lot and a lot of it is unnecessary... there's a lot of hate on that forum though. I really wish they'd drop that. People would respect them more for it.

I caught a glimpse of it, but I actually went back to play XII for a bit so I haven't read all of it. I thought it was something vague like, "I don't like to put my opinions about marriage in my writing" or what have you.

I wouldn't know how Clerith's act anymore, I have no desire to go to their forums and there's practically none on this site. And I went to, like, one Clerith website, clerith.com I think, but I clicked on one of their tl;drs and saw an "IN JAPAN" arguement, said "Oh fuck no" and clicked back.

 

[Frostwave]

"Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go on about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs).

 

[Splintered]

That is pretty damning evidence, but still horribly vague and a bit confusing. Can someone send me the link? I haven't read the whole article.

 

[Dashell]

That's all we got so far. But the point is WHY would Nojima talk about marriage and love and family if Tifa and Cloud weren't in that kind of relationship.

And I went to, like, one Clerith website, clerith.com I think, but I clicked on one of their tl;drs and saw an "IN JAPAN" arguement, said "Oh fuck no" and clicked back.

Yeah well... at LEAST she attempts to back up her claims with evidence. (or what's considered evidence)
IMO it's better than ignoring it or just baseless Cloti bashing.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You mean for it to be a canon romantic coupling? A strong difinitive moment where he confirms that yes, he is at the moment romantically in love with her- above anybody else- and that he would like to initiate a romantic relationship. A long time ago before AC came out and there was only a bit of information leaking out, there were dozens of magazine articles on ACF (which were probably not canon but still gave us an idea) that linked Tifa and Cloud as "more than friends, less than lovers."

So why do Cloud and Tifa need that, but no other romantic couple? And how are Cloud's words and deeds NOT confirmation that he would like to initiate a romantic relationship?

It is entirely possible for a Clerith fan, who truly believes that his/her fandom is canon, to infer their relationship like that. Or that Cloud is moving on in real life, but he will always romantically love Aerith in his heart. Or that he's her soulmate or whatever.

All of which is not based in fact, but in desire. That's the difference. C/T arguments are comprised of lots of facts and very little extrapolation. C/A arguments are heavy with, and sometimes based entirely on- speculation.

It's not all that far fetched for someone to actually believe that, nor is it without precedent in the Final Fantasy series.

Explain. Saying there is a precedent is insufficient. I can think of four major 'continued to love past their death' instances, three of which involve couples that were married or engaged already and in which it was explicit the love was there pre-mortem.

Cloud and Tifa are in a situation that echoes a family where Cloud is the husband and Tifa is the wife, but they jumped the whole romance and moved straight to the familial support. The fact that the most coupl-y thing they truly did together in Case of Tifa was when Tifa asked Cloud in his sleep if he loved her might make Clerith fans believe that even more.

That's not the most couple-y thing they did, and in fact, the entire novella is about their issues as a couple because of Cloud's fear, guilt, etc.

I'm not saying there are no strong hints that Cloud/Tifa is canon. I think the staff gives it to us in the truckloads. But I also think that they still tried to keep the Cloud/Aerith hints alive in the franchise as well. There's always been a spirit of openess in FFVII and that includes the LTD, it's unfair to tell the Cloud/Aerith fans, "no, you and your interpretation is wrong. Go sit in your corner of shame until your obviously crazy headed delusions pass."

Except 'you are wrong' IS the default answer to EVERYTHING. Cleriths have simply been quite poor about fronting evidence in support of their claim.

Untrue until proven so, innocent until proven guilty. No aliens until proven spacewhales. It's how rational reductionalism GOES.

Storm's name is Ororo and that has something to do with it, maybe? I dunno. (My little brother loves Storm/Wolverine)

Isn't she married now anyway?

Yes. To Black Panther. It came out of nowhere.
Not that the Logan/Ororo pairing doesn't also come out of nowhere, but the marriage to Panther was handled poorly. Not as badly as One More Day, but still.

 

[Splintered]

Oh damn, I had this really long argument, and then accidentally pressed back and lost it. So I'll summarize it with this.

Clerith: You only need on example to establish a precedent, but Rassler/Ashe, Yuna/Tidus(though he was revived there was a definite "love even when gone" esque to them), Laguna/Raine, Vincent/Lucrecia.

The final fantasy series is not a stranger to tragic loves and epic loves. A Clerith can interpret their favorite pairing as either of those. Yes, they might not have the "mountains of evidence" Cloud and Tifa fans have, but they do have facts and they do have hints, and they are allowed to speculate. The creators of Final Fantasy encourage speculation, they always have.

And they can translate the relationship between Cloud and Tifa as intimate and one that resembles a couple, but is completely platonic. Yes, they worked out problems as a couple but they lacked the romantic framework in their intimacy that other couples had in the past. Hence &#8220;more than friends, less than lovers.&#8221; I happen to think that it does work with a little bit of romantic love, but it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that a CloudAerith fan sees it without.

My only problem with this whole thing is calling a couple "canon." Canon means it's official- approved by the staff and creators. There is no canon coupling of FFVII. There might be bias to one side, but nothing is official. And I happen to believe it never will be.

Yes. To Black Panther. It came out of nowhere.
Not that the Logan/Ororo pairing doesn't also come out of nowhere, but the marriage to Panther was handled poorly. Not as badly as One More Day, but still.

Ew, seriously? I haven't been into comic books in a long time, but I remembered Storm as a badass super chick who didn't need a guy to complete her.

So, they just married her to the "other black dude" for no reason? That's stupid D:

 

[Dashell]

Hence &#8220;more than friends, less than lovers.&#8221;

Is that a quote from something?

And I really do think there's enough evidence to declare Cloud and Tifa canon but you know that already