So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Splintered]

Is that a quote from something?

And I really do think there's enough evidence to declare Cloud and Tifa canon but you know that already

Nothing official or anything. Back when AC was announced and a whole bunch of magazines were writing about what may or may not be in it, there was this one magazine that came out with a relationship chart. The arrow between Cloud and Tifa was "more than friends, less than lovers" and I found that an awesome way to describe the relationship between the two, though I moved more toward the "lovers" side when Case of Tifa was translated.

It caused a shitstorm of overanalyzing at ACF. I don't know why, it's not like it was written by someone that has power over canon. I guess it was because the magazine was OMGJAPANESE and therefore knew more.

I also remember at that time, people were getting annoyed at ACF because they thought there was a Cloud/Aerith bias on the site since there was a high profile mod and translator that was a huge Cloud/Aerith supporter. Tbh I thought it was bullshit, 90% of victim paranoia on forums is anyway.

 

[Dashell]

Oh... pfft... yeah I thought there was some official source that said that and I was like "Why are people ignoring this?"

Yeah the bias used to be on CxA's side from what I understand, and a lot of CxT fans were victimized... now they're doing the victimizing. Way to become what you hate (it's a joke don't hurt me)

 

[Frostwave]

My only problem with this whole thing is calling a couple "canon." Canon means it's official- approved by the staff and creators. There is no canon coupling of FFVII. There might be bias to one side, but nothing is official. And I happen to believe it never will be.

If it's in the game, movie, novella, then it is official and approved by the staff and creators.

You can find SE approval for Cloud/Tifa within the Compilation, and that's why it's canon.

 

[Dashell]

I guess she's looking for a "CLOUD X TIFA IS CANON SO STOP ARGUING" from the creators... I'd still like to know if they'd even answer that if asked.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh damn, I had this really long argument, and then accidentally pressed back and lost it. So I'll summarize it with this.

Clerith: You only need on example to establish a precedent, but Rassler/Ashe, Yuna/Tidus(though he was revived there was a definite "love even when gone" esque to them), Laguna/Raine, Vincent/Lucrecia.

Yes, and all of those pairing had established the romance, proper romance, Pre-mortem.

The final fantasy series is not a stranger to tragic loves and epic loves. A Clerith can interpret their favorite pairing as either of those. Yes, they might not have the "mountains of evidence" Cloud and Tifa fans have, but they do have facts and they do have hints, and they are allowed to speculate. The creators of Final Fantasy encourage speculation, they always have.

Yes, but there is a difference between speculation based on facts and wild speculation.
And all the tragic and epic loves are ones where it is known that the romance existed pre-mortem. Clerith want to say this epic post mortem love exists purely because they want an epic post mortem love for their Mary Sue.

And they can translate the relationship between Cloud and Tifa as intimate and one that resembles a couple, but is completely platonic. Yes, they worked out problems as a couple but they lacked the romantic framework in their intimacy that other couples had in the past. Hence “more than friends, less than lovers.” I happen to think that it does work with a little bit of romantic love, but it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that a CloudAerith fan sees it without.

Eh, seeing C and T's interactions in CoT, AC/C and beyond as platonic both ignores the concept of parsimony, and also ignores the basic commonalities of how romantic couples, and couples in the midst of personal crisis are depicted in fiction.

My only problem with this whole thing is calling a couple "canon." Canon means it's official- approved by the staff and creators. There is no canon coupling of FFVII. There might be bias to one side, but nothing is official. And I happen to believe it never will be.

And thus there's no canon FF6, 9, 12, etc. pairing. Because those couples haven't 'been approved' by the creators either. Seriously, it's a ludicrous standard and I hate that people only ever seem to fucking apply it to FF7.

Ew, seriously? I haven't been into comic books in a long time, but I remembered Storm as a badass super chick who didn't need a guy to complete her.

So, they just married her to the "other black dude" for no reason? That's stupid D:

I think it was political in nature, but fuck if I can recall exactly why. The marriage has pretty much had no impact on anything as far as I can recall.

Is that a quote from something?

And I really do think there's enough evidence to declare Cloud and Tifa canon but you know that already

If Locke/ Celes, Irvine/Selphie, Steiner/Beatrix, etc. etc. etc. count as canon, then there's more than enough to count C/T as the same. As such, they won't say 'CLOUD AND TIFA' any more than they will say 'STEINER AND BEATRIX'

Oh... pfft... yeah I thought there was some official source that said that and I was like "Why are people ignoring this?"

Yeah the bias used to be on CxA's side from what I understand, and a lot of CxT fans were victimized... now they're doing the victimizing. Way to become what you hate (it's a joke don't hurt me)

Oh, we didn't mind being victimized. We minded being victimized while they claimed to be the victims.

 

[KissTheRain]

the LTD isn't resolved (theoretically), Cloud being single is just as much an up-in-the-air possibility as him loving Tifa or Aerith.

That is true, it is just another side of the debate which is neither side. I do indeed think that Cloud is single, but doesn't make it right because i'm not picking between the women.

WHAT STANDARD OF EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED? That's more concrete than the vast majority of FF pairings out there.

I can't make myself feel that C/T or C/A is canon unless I get the level of proof that the other canon couples have shown to me. Yes, you could definatly say that having a family is more proof, but seeing Barret is part of the family I would definatly hope Tifa is not shagging him. A hug, a kiss, a romantic gesture besides little bits of flirting, despite being cute, do not conclude Cloud and Tifa are dating. If they possibly shared a room, kissed, and were referred to other than childhood friends every 5 seconds, then maybe I would think they were canon.

Yeah...

 

[Dashell]

Barret's never there... or hardly ever anyway. And it's been that way and it is still that way until CoD. That's 4 years of no Barret. Why even include Barret when he's never there?

 

[KissTheRain]

Ha, well for one nobody likes Barret as much as Cloud or Tifa and you know it's true (myself included) so they couldn't get as much shamely pathetic money if Barret was a lead I would think.

Ahh, yus Barret isn't the greatest dad is he now? XD But, you can't forget him it's not fair. And Tifa isn't in love with him or doesn't even look cute with him imo, so i'm sure she would never try anything so it was kinda dumb to even see them in any romantic light, whereas at least C/T have hints.

 

[Dashell]

Ha, well for one nobody likes Barret as much as Cloud or Tifa and you know it's true (myself included) so they couldn't get as much shamely pathetic money if Barret was a lead I would think.

Well now you're stepping out side the FFVII realm of reality and that's kinda weird.. .though I guess we did it in response to "Why can't Cloud see his mom?" so...

Anyways, no one is forgetting Barret I just don't see your point. SO Barret's there sometimes, how does that disprove C/T?

 

[KissTheRain]

Find me a fan that likes Barret more than Cloud. Now.

Anyways, no one is forgetting Barret I just don't see your point. SO Barret's there sometimes, how does that disprove C/T?

I mean, people use a reason of Cloud and Tifa dating as them raising children together, but Marlene is Barret's daughter so I was joking around a little by saying wouldn't Barifa be canon if your using that as a canon factor? Hmm...?

 

[Dashell]

Actually don't Cloud and Tifa kinda consider Marlene theirs as well?

... OH THREESOME!

 

[Ryushikaze]

That is true, it is just another side of the debate which is neither side. I do indeed think that Cloud is single, but doesn't make it right because i'm not picking between the women.

I can't make myself feel that C/T or C/A is canon unless I get the level of proof that the other canon couples have shown to me.

SUCH AS? Cloud and Tifa have MORE SUBSTIANTIAL EVIDENCE than most other couples!

Yes, you could definatly say that having a family is more proof, but seeing Barret is part of the family

NO. FAIL. FAMILY OF THREE AND FAMILY OF FOUR. NOT FAMILY OF FIVE. BARRET EXPLICITLY EXCLUDES HIMSELF FROM THEIR FAMILY.

I would definatly hope Tifa is not shagging him. A hug, a kiss, a romantic gesture besides little bits of flirting, despite being cute, do not conclude Cloud and Tifa are dating. If they possibly shared a room, kissed, and were referred to other than childhood friends every 5 seconds, then maybe I would think they were canon.

AN IMPORTANT WOMAN TO HIM AND THE MOTHER OF THE FAMILY THEY WERE FORMING IN EDGE
SHE LOOKS AT HIM AS A YOUNG FATHER SPENDING TIME WITH HIS CHILDREN.
SHE IS SOMEONE'S BELOVED.
How is that NOT being referred to as other than childhood friends?

Ha, well for one nobody likes Barret as much as Cloud or Tifa and you know it's true (myself included) so they couldn't get as much shamely pathetic money if Barret was a lead I would think.

Ahh, yus Barret isn't the greatest dad is he now? XD But, you can't forget him it's not fair. And Tifa isn't in love with him or doesn't even look cute with him imo, so i'm sure she would never try anything so it was kinda dumb to even see them in any romantic light, whereas at least C/T have hints.

Barret ISN'T PART OF THE FAMILY. When the 7th heaven is formed, a family of three is said to form. This is the family of Clout, Tifa, and Marlene. When Denzel comes, it is a family of four. Barret is not a part of this family.
At BEST, he is included in Marlene's idea of the family, but he is NOT included in the list of the family in the timelines in the UO.

I mean, people use a reason of Cloud and Tifa dating as them raising children together, but Marlene is Barret's daughter so I was joking around a little by saying wouldn't Barifa be canon if your using that as a canon factor? Hmm...?

No. For a variety of reasons.
Among many other, Marlene has never been directly displayed as 'Barret and Tifa's' or really anyone but Barret's until he left her in the care of, who? Cloud and Tifa.

 

[KissTheRain]

I'm not sure..:/

I know Tifa considers Marlene her daughter and possibly Denzel as a child, but like always with the compilation we have nothing from Cloud. T_T But, he does love Marlene so yeah probabaly unless he is a pedo.

 

[Dashell]

OH geeze, way to ignore his entire post KtR

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Barret loves Marlene, no one is denying that or saying he is not her father. But FOR THE TIME BEING, Cloud and Tifa are taking care of her like a family.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Seriously, it's a ludicrous standard and I hate that people only ever seem to fucking apply it to FF7.

This.

@KTR: You do realize though that means there's a ton of FF couples that aren't canon according to those standards right?

Also, Barrett isn't apart of their family. He is Marlene's father, but in the family of four her parents are Cloud and Tifa. You can't compare it to a normal situation because it just isn't, her young life has been complicated from the beginning when parents are involved. However, Marlene has two families, one where Barrett is the father, and one where Cloud and Tifa are her parents, and Denzel is her brother.

@Splintered: I think the major issue is that anything between Cloud and Aerith was meant to make you think something might happen, and then out of nowhere she is murdered and never coming back. Cloud was never shown to have romantic interest in her, but Aerith fits the "potential love interest" mold very well. Most fans understood that they were being mislead once the lifestream came and you not only see that Cloud wasn't even himself, but that he's loved Tifa all along. Others became very passionate about their first assumptions. Makes me think of all the pissed LukexLeia fans there must have been... but anyways.

Cloud is shown in the game to have romantic feelings for Tifa, say that nothing has changed, and they spent what they think could be their last night together. Also, same question asked to KTR applies here as well... these standards being placed on CxT make other canon couples not canon.

 

[Dashell]

Just to further that Barret is not part of the family, this is from the Ultimania Timeline:

· After traveling to several places with Cloud and Barret, Tifa opens the bar Seventh Heaven in Edge on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey to find a new energy source. Together with Cloud, the 3 of them began living together as a family.

and

· Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.

EDIT
dhafhaskfhakjsa!!!!

Aerith lends her power to the people suffering from Geostigma in Edge, and personally provides for Cloud’s recovery. Geostimga is cured. Cloud returns to Tifa and the children.

Do you know how often Cleriths say there's no evidence that Cloud returned to Tifa at the end of FFVVII AC? well

 

[KissTheRain]

OH geeze, way to ignore his entire post KtR

I didn't see it, I was hovering in advanced posting for a while because of my crappy attention span.

So then I guess...

Ryushikaze-

SUCH AS? Cloud and Tifa have MORE SUBSTIANTIAL EVIDENCE than most other couples!

Please compare/contrast. ^^

Marlene has never been directly displayed as 'Barret and Tifa's' or really anyone but Barret's until

he left her in the care of, who?

I swear there is a quote saying Tifa calls Marlene her daughter. Of course it is not with Barret, but it is mentioned.

How is that NOT being referred to as other than childhood friends?

Ryu, my question is why are they called "childhood friends" in DoC and other parts of the compilation if they are lovers now?

At BEST, he is included in Marlene's idea of the family, but he is NOT included in the list of the family in the timelines in the UO.

Well la dee da, thanks Square for leaving out the character that was going to be one of the 3 main at a time. Seriously, I know why they did it though, Barret isn't that popular and I have never met a fangirl for him, that's why. I count Barret as part of the family, although not as directly as Cloud & Tifa.

@Wolverine-I don't really have anything to say back, except that was a well written display of the family and I agree. ....and I was a LukexLeia fan. XD

Do you know how often Cleriths say there's no evidence that Cloud returned to Tifa at the end of FFVVII AC?

Did they miss Tifa's "fuck me" smile to Cloud. Only if Cloud was a sheer homo, he could not resist that. XD

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Ryu, my question is why are they called "childhood friends" in DoC and other parts of the compilation if they are lovers now?

How does them being childhood friends negate any other dimension of relationship they could have? Calling them that could be as simple as SE trying to avoid spoilers for those people who haven't played the game.

Or it could be that... they are childhood friends!

Well la dee da, thanks Square for leaving out the character that was going to be one of the 3 main at a time. Seriously, I know why they did it though, Barret isn't that popular and I have never met a fangirl for him, that's why. I count Barret as part of the family, although not as directly as Cloud & Tifa.

Rather than Square Enix excluding Barret from Cloud and Tifa's family because he has a smaller fanbase, they might have done it to make the fact that they are trying to tell us that Cloud and Tifa are beginning a life together more clear.

Having Barret there would confuse things.

I'm not even supposed to be up right now! *sneaks away*

 

[Dashell]

Ryu, my question is why are they called "childhood friends" in DoC and other parts of the compilation if they are lovers now?

Because
...

get this, this is really cool.


THEY WERE CHILDHOOD FRIENDS! WERE! Doesn't mean that's all they ever will be, it just means as children they were FRIENDS! I mean ... really does that need to be explained?

Did they miss Tifa's "fuck me" smile to Cloud. Only if Cloud was a sheer homo, he could not resist that. XD

Yes, yes they do

 

[Isabella]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the DoC manual just regurgitate what was said about them in the FF7 manual? Cloud and Tifa still childhood friends, Cloud still an ex-SOLDIER, etc? It doesn't sound like they rewrote a whole lot for the DOC manual when it came to recapping the characters. They really only needed to rewrite Aerith's, because ... her status changed.

 

[KissTheRain]

I know, I know that they were childhood friends, but why if she is more important to Cloud than just a childhood friend, why do they only call her that? If she is fucking Cloud then I would like to see an honary title. And possibly one that is better than:

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

 

[Tifaeria]

Find me a fan that likes Barret more than Cloud. Now.

*Points to myself*

I'm not a huge fangirl, but I can tell you right now, there are actually people who think Barret is a lot cooler than Cloud is. I can name someone from livejournal, my rl friends, and just anybody who isn't a total freak over the LTD.

Course we don't go nuts over it like all the rabids do over Cloud for his prettiness, but we do exist. :bmonster:

 

[Isabella]

who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life

As Hito has told us several times, this is a Japanese euphemism for "won't forget her," which is why it was translated that way in the English version. It doesn't have quite the dramatic implications in Japanese that the Clerith want to give it. Of course, that's assuming you want to trust that sneaky Hito.

 

[Dashell]

I know, I know that they were childhood friends, but why if she is more important to Cloud than just a childhood friend, why do they only call her that? If she is fucking Cloud then I would like to see an honary title. And possibly one that is better than:

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life.

Read Isabella's post above yours, she said it best.

As for the about being engraved in his heart... it doesn't mean in any way that Aerith is more important or Tifa is less important... it's just saying he'll never forget her. There's no point in hiding her death now, I mean everyone knows about it


EDIT
DAMMIT I hate it when I reply and someone replies like a second earlier and it just looks like I copied them
And then they get thanked and I don't

that's assuming you want to trust that sneaky Hito.

Yeah he's always translating things the way HE wants, can he be trusted?