So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Reith123]

i agree with kiss the rain, he would be crazy not to love her :p and whats mako asking?

 

[Makoeyes987]

KissTheRain just acknowledged that Cloud and Tifa are lovers, as stated by Nomura. That's different than what she's been saying before, accepting that Tifa is the woman Cloud loves.

Can we stay on topic of the discussion please?

 

[Dashell]

On the whole koibito thing, you may hate me for this, but I personally think it was negated when it was used in CoLW. I mean yeah you can sit there and go "PAST TENSE!" or "HE MIGHT NOT LOVE HER BACK!" but IMO, if they wanted to show they love was one sided, the would NOT have used the word koibito. It would have been like "She loved Cloud dearly" or something. Anyone who reads that who doesn't know FFVII is going to think they were lovers.

And you won't change my mind with this so don't even try

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's not negated, and that doesn't even make any sense. Context and a word's definition can't be "negated." It'll always mean something and have a definitive intent.

How "koibito" was used in "Lifestream White" is not the same context or meaning as Nomura stating definitively, in regards to AC, that Tifa was a lover to Cloud. Aerith calling Cloud a lover in reference to how she felt about him, is just that. Her feelings. The creator commenting on Tifa's overarching character in the film, that she is a lover to Cloud is not in the same vein or context as Aerith's own personal feelings within the narrative.

One is creative commentary, the other is commentary restricted in the narrative. They used the word "koibito" in Aerith's case to illustrate how important Cloud was to her. That's all. Anyone who knows FFVII, and isn't blinded by shipping blinders is going to understand the context.

 

[KissTheRain]

KissTheRain just acknowledged that Cloud and Tifa are lovers, as stated by Nomura. That's different than what she's been saying before, accepting that Tifa is the woman Cloud loves.

I think Cloud loves Tifa and Aerith. 3 ways are always the answer...always.

In the past KtR didn't want to admit that they were talking about Cloud being Tifa's sweetheart

Well it's more the fact, I'm a lazy debater and if I agreed with something CxT you guys *cough*que*cough* would assume I think it's canon. That's right...

I'm not completely big on the RF/Ultimania facts because that involves reading which is a fail. D:

 

[Dashell]

DAMMIT! KTR! Quit replying to my posts before I edit them!

Well it's more the fact, I'm a lazy debater and if I agreed with something CxT you guys *cough*que*cough* would assume I think it's canon.

Would not?

... so you think Cloti is canon now?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think Cloud loves Tifa and Aerith. 3 ways are always the answer...always.

Well I guess we're making progress here.

Okay then. Next step. Where exactly...does Cloud show love for Aerith? Think carefully on this one.

Well it's more the fact, I'm a lazy debater and if I agreed with something CxT you guys *cough*que*cough* would assume I think it's canon. That's right...

I'm not completely big on the RF/Ultimania facts because that involves reading which is a fail. D:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but no one's entitled to not know the facts. Especially in a debate. If you're gonna claim a position, you should know it factually and what its truth is. I don't think you "failing at reading" is an excuse. Clearly you can read if you're posting here. If you're gonna try to argue the facts and stuff, know the facts. It's not like its hard reading, after all.

 

[Makoeyes987]

On the whole koibito thing, you may hate me for this, but I personally think it was negated when it was used in CoLW. I mean yeah you can sit there and go "PAST TENSE!" or "HE MIGHT NOT LOVE HER BACK!" but IMO, if they wanted to show they love was one sided, the would NOT have used the word koibito. It would have been like "She loved Cloud dearly" or something. Anyone who reads that who doesn't know FFVII is going to think they were lovers.

And you won't change my mind with this so don't even try

It's not negated, and that doesn't even make any sense. Context and a word's definition can't be "negated." It'll always mean something and have a definitive intent.

How "koibito" was used in "Lifestream White" is not the same context or meaning as Nomura stating definitively, in regards to AC, that Tifa was a lover to Cloud. Aerith calling Cloud a lover in reference to how she felt about him, is just that. Her feelings. The creator commenting on Tifa's overarching character in the film, that she is a lover to Cloud is not in the same vein or context as Aerith's own personal feelings within the narrative.

One is creative commentary, the other is commentary restricted in the narrative. They used the word "koibito" in Aerith's case to illustrate how important Cloud was to her. That's all. Anyone who knows FFVII, and isn't blinded by shipping blinders is going to understand the context.

Quoted for emphasis and attention. I'm not letting this go because its too obvious.

 

[Dashell]

You want me to reply to that don't you?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So uh did anything happen here or was it fine for me to skip 9ish pages?

 

[Makoeyes987]

You want me to reply to that don't you?

No, I just replied to it twice for shits and giggles.

Uh, yeah.

 

[KissTheRain]

Okay then. Next step. Where exactly...does Cloud show love for Aerith? Think carefully on this one

Oh...i'm fucked.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but no one's entitled to not know the facts. Especially in a debate. If you're gonna claim a position, you should know it factually and what its truth is. I don't think you "failing at reading" is an excuse. Clearly you can read if you're posting here. If you're gonna try to argue the facts and stuff, know the facts. It's not like its hard reading, after all.

Mako, I was just kidding a little I've read quite a bit of it, just like I said i'm a lazy debater. I've read the facts and I do think some lead to Clerith being canon and yes indeed some leading to Cloti. It is rather ignorant to exclude solid print like "Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for eachother" or ignore the family they have together. But from what i've seen Cloud dwelling on Aerith that much and having "undying feelings" for her and such also is getting CxA some brownie points in a way. I love both pairings and do indeed think that each has their own sense of canon, which I could explain more if you would really like.

I must restate it don't I...

Spoiler

Would not?

... so you think Cloti is canon now?

Half way.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh...i'm fucked.


Mako, I was just kidding a little I've read quite a bit of it, just like I said i'm a lazy debater. I've read the facts and I do think some lead to Clerith being canon and yes indeed some leading to Cloti. It is rather ignorant to exclude solid print like "Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for eachother" or ignore the family they have together. But from what i've seen Cloud dwelling on Aerith that much and having "undying feelings" for her and such also is getting CxA some brownie points in a way. I love both pairings and do indeed think that each has their own sense of canon, which I could explain more if you would really like.

I know you are, hence my drilling that point home so I can get this discussion going

Okay, so you have read it. Well I'll ask you then, why him dwelling on his guilt over Aerith automatically leads to romance? I mean, yeah, they're "brownie points" towards the already obvious point that Cloud and Aerith cared for each other. But where is it ever stated that that bond or friendship was anything explicitly romantic? No one's saying Cloud didn't care about her, but that's a pretty big leap to say that him feeling guilt and sadness over her death means they were in love. Or that because Aerith thought of Cloud as someone she loved and a lover, that means Cloud was also thinking the same thing and they were in a relationship during FFVII.

What do you mean, that each has its own sense of canon? When we talk about canon, aren't we talking about the actual, storyline facts? Not just the fan service or things we like to see because it looks good?

Hell, I love the Neliel/Harribel pairing in Bleach. Sexiest thing since sex, but I know there's no canon for it.

 

[Dashell]

Fuck I don't wanna but I guess I got myself into it

It's not negated, and that doesn't even make any sense. Context and a word's definition can't be "negated." It'll always mean something and have a definitive intent.

If I say "Cloud was Tifa's koibito blah blah" to a Clerith, they'll bring up CoLW's koibito. And do you really think that any amount of "It's in past tense" or "context" will make them change their minds?
hint:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

it won't

How "koibito" was used in "Lifestream White" is not the same context or meaning as Nomura stating definitively, in regards to AC, that Tifa was a lover to Cloud. Aerith calling Cloud a lover in reference to how she felt about him, is just that. Her feelings. The creator commenting on Tifa's overarching character in the film, that she is a lover to Cloud is not in the same vein or context as Aerith's own personal feelings within the narrative.

I would first like to know how often the word koibito is used to describe someone's feelings in Japan before I comment on this. I have a feeling it's very little. From the research I did (yes Que can research ) it means lover in a two sided relationship. No one ever said "It can describe feelings" or "Sometimes someone will use it to show how important one is to someone." so ... yeah... show me several instances of koibito being used to describe feelings or to show how important someone is where person B does NOT reciprocate the feelings and I'll back down.

One is creative commentary, the other is commentary restricted in the narrative. They used the word "koibito" in Aerith's case to illustrate how important Cloud was to her. That's all. Anyone who knows FFVII, and isn't blinded by shipping blinders is going to understand the context.

And anyone who DOES NOT know FFVII very well is going to assume they were a couple.

It's a very intended love triangle. Now if you ask me they've more than proved that Cloti is canon, but they throw things into the mix like that to keep it going anyway. It was used on both sides of the love triangle for a reason.

You guys know how you always say Cleriths over analyze stuff?... Well I think you've over analyzing CoLW's koibito.

 

[Dashell]

Okay, so you have read it. Well I'll ask you then, why him dwelling on his guilt over Aerith automatically leads to romance?

Why does Tifa being an important woman to Cloud automatically lead to romance?
see what I did there?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Fuck I don't wanna but I guess I got myself into it

That you did.

If I say "Cloud was Tifa's koibito blah blah" to a Clerith, they'll bring up CoLW's koibito. And do you really think that any amount of "It's in past tense" or "context" will make them change their minds?
hint:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

it won't

So that makes them right? Wow. I'll be sure to keep that logic in mind to ensure I"m right in everything I say then. Just because someone's gonna be thick and not accept the facts, doesn't change the fact that the fact is the truth.

I would first like to know how often the word koibito is used to describe someone's feelings in Japan before I comment on this. I have a feeling it's very little. From the research I did (yes Que can research ) it means lover in a two sided relationship. No one ever said "It can describe feelings" or "Sometimes someone will use it to show how important one is to someone." so ... yeah... show me several instances of koibito being used to describe feelings or to show how important someone is where person B does NOT reciprocate the feelings and I'll back down.

It's pretty common place, just like the word lover. I don't know why you think its not very common, but you see it in many other works of fiction.

And if you want examples, I think hitoshura would help you out there, but they do exist. Off the top of my head I do believe Yubel from Yu-Gi-Oh! GX calls Judai her lover/partner/ or something even though at the time, Judai doesn't even know who the fuck he/she/it is. I'm not understanding why you can't understand the importance of context. Context is something that's the same and important in any language or culture. You can't write that off as something "only the Japanese can understand." That's bullocks.

And anyone who DOES NOT know FFVII very well is going to assume they were a couple.

What does that have to do with anything? Anyone who's reading OTWTS is going to know FFVII, because they're all supplimental novellas meant to exposition the characters that were already introduced and fleshed out in FFVII. These aren't stand alone stories. So why would someone who doesn't know FFVII start with the novellas?

It's a very intended love triangle. Now if you ask me they've more than proved that Cloti is canon, but they throw things into the mix like that to keep it going anyway. It was used on both sides of the love triangle for a reason.

Not that intended, if the author goes onto say he injected his views of marriage and family into one pairing, and calls the other pairing a hypothetical. Love triangles get equal footing and ambiguity. C/T has none.

You guys know how you always say Cleriths over analyze stuff?... Well I think you've over analyzing CoLW's koibito.

How is pointing out its painfully obvious context and difference from creative commentary over analyzing? Buh what?

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

It's not saying koibito can be used as a verb, like "I koibito him/her." Aerith calls Cloud her koibito because she has romantic feelings for him.

Or I am misunderstanding?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why does Tifa being an important woman to Cloud automatically lead to romance?
see what I did there?

Except you made absolutely no sense at all, given the context, evidence and other statements given on the nature of their relationship. Which C/A are lacking.

 

[Dashell]

I koibito Mako

So that makes them right? Wow. I'll be sure to keep that logic in mind to ensure I"m right in everything I say then. Just because someone's gonna be thick and not accept the facts, doesn't change the fact that the fact is the truth.

Well yeah but isn't the whole point of a debate to try and convince that other side that you're right and they're not?... If you can't do that why even bring it up?

It's pretty common place, just like the word lover. I don't know why you think its not very common, but you see it in many other works of fiction.

Well just form the people who I asked (some were from Japan) they never said anything like that. Of course I didn't ask specifically, "Hey guys can koibito be used like this...?" and maybe I should have. I'm by no means trying to say I know anything about Japanese because I know jack squat. But I'm inclined to believe what my research told me until proven otherwise.

And if you want examples, I think hitoshura would help you out there, but they do exist. Off the top of my head I do believe Yubel from Yu-Gi-Oh! GX calls Judai her lover/partner/ or something even though at the time, Judai doesn't even know who the fuck he/she/it is.

Well there's one example, thanks

I'm not understanding why you can't understand the importance of context. Context is something that's the same and important in any language or culture. You can't write that off as something "only the Japanese can understand." That's bullocks.

Because I really don't believe Nojima sat down and wrote it and thought to himself, "Okay this is third person ____ so if I have Aerith use the word koibito, people will know it's just one sided and it'll all be good."

As for context, I do believe the ONLY person who can tel lme exactly what they meant by using it in CoLW is in fact, Nojima himself.

What does that have to do with anything? Anyone who's reading OTWTS is going to know FFVII, because they're all supplimental novellas meant to exposition the characters that were already introduced and fleshed out in FFVII. These aren't stand alone stories. So why would someone who doesn't know FFVII start with the novellas?

I dunno, I started with pictures of Advent Children and reading about that before I played FFVII

Not that intended, if the author goes onto say he injected his views of marriage and family into one pairing, and calls the other pairing a hypothetical. Love triangles get equal footing and ambiguity. C/T has none.

Yes but they do throw things into the mix to keep things going. And unfortunately until we get a "CLOUD AND TIFA ARE ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED NOW! AERITH IS WITH ZACK IN THE LIFESTREAM, THE END" from either Nojima or Nomura, it's not ending any time soon.

Except you made absolutely no sense at all, given the context, evidence and other statements given on the nature of their relationship. Which C/A are lacking.

I know I'm just messing with ya (but without context, it doesn't necessarily mean romance )

 

[KissTheRain]

@Mako Eyes- Okay, okay then let's really talk. For one, i've gotta do some shit soon so this will be my last or 2nd to last post so you guys know i'm not ditching you, k?

I know that Cloud and Aerith don't have anything as solid as Cloud and Tifa, but I do know indeed that all their little tid bits mean something.(or at least I think so) Such as, Aerith calls Cloud her beloved/bf/sweetheart whatever, fan translations suck which balances out with Tifa's sweetheart because it was the same exact kanji right? Next, I know you could easily say that Cloud only feels guilt for Aerith, but to seperate his feelings from a group and call them "undying" pushes stronger feelings from Cloud for Aerith. Another part would be Cloud leaving his family, possibly before he even had geostigma, to go to Aerith's church and says things like "I think Aerith brought Denzel to us" clearly shows he is thinking of her quite a lot. Then we have the date with Aerith which is the default one, also you could count them at the park a date so that makes them have something of a date, at least it counted when Zack did the same sorta thing. Another part, that gives them "canon points" would be what the Cait Sith said about their compatibility which just makes it cute if anything. Yeah, yeah it's just a damn cat but he sorta helped right? XD I think that's some stuff that sorta shows it. *shrugs*

But of course I don't think Cloud and Aerith is canon because Cloti has so many perks that even it out just about, more or less. Like their promise right in the beginning of the game for one. And quotes like Tifa is an important women, sweetheart, etc etc. I don't think I have to go too far into detail about why Cloti is amazing seeing you are all *Clotis*.

I'll just say now another thing. I think Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, but is/was not dating either. Just so you know...

Why does Tifa being an important woman to Cloud automatically lead to romance?
see what I did there?

Be a jack ass?

EDIT: Sorry I missed the recent posts. ^.^'

 

[Dashell]

Wow KisstheRain, that's one of the best posts you've made in here. Except for:

Another part, that gives them "canon points" would be what the Cait Sith said about their compatibility which just makes it cute if anything.

Which was proven to be BS by the creators.

If you put that on CxA I bet you'd get the cheering emote ;

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well yeah but isn't the whole point of a debate to try and convince that other side that you're right and they're not?... If you can't do that why even bring it up?

Lulz, that's persuasive debate. Not debate is persuasive. At least, in terms of trying to persuade the other person who's holding the erroneous or opposing position.

Well just form the people who I asked (some were from Japan) they never said anything like that. Of course I didn't ask specifically, "Hey guys can koibito be used like this...?" and maybe I should have. I'm by no means trying to say I know anything about Japanese because I know jack squat. But I'm inclined to believe what my research told me until proven otherwise.

How many times do you have to explicitly state, "X is my lover" in real life?

Because I really don't believe Nojima sat down and wrote it and thought to himself, "Okay this is third person ____ so if I have Aerith use the word koibito, people will know it's just one sided and it'll all be good."

So you don't think Nojima kept narrative consistency and tone in mind when writing his novellas? That's pretty cold criticism to level on the guy, especially considering he kept said tone and perspective consistent in his stories.

As for context, I do believe the ONLY person who can tel lme exactly what they meant by using it in CoLW is in fact, Nojima himself.

...So I guess then you'll only believe that the person in Lifestream White is Aerith unless Nojima tells you in person, since you're resistant to accepting what is obvious through context.

I dunno, I started with pictures of Advent Children and reading about that before I played FFVII

You're not in the majority.

Yes but they do throw things into the mix to keep things going. And unfortunately until we get a "CLOUD AND TIFA ARE ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED NOW! AERITH IS WITH ZACK IN THE LIFESTREAM, THE END" from either Nojima or Nomura, it's not ending any time soon.

Funny that they've kinda already said that with Cloud and Tifa's excerpt from this novella, their entry in the Crisis Core Complete Guide, their entry in the Crisis Core Ultimania, Aerith's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and Zack's profile in the Dengeki PS3 2009 issue featuring profiles for ACC.

I know I'm just messing with ya (but without context, it doesn't necessarily mean romance )

Except it does, because they've consistently labeled and placed their relationship in a romantic context. The closest C/A have been in regards to romance in terms of creator commentary is Nojima referring to the two as hypothetical.

 

[KissTheRain]

Which was proven to be BS by the creators.

I said it was just a damn cat and even though it may not be exactly "canon" it's cute. Don't you read women!! D:<

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I would like to mention that some fan translators don't seem to understand that Japanese has at least a vague sense of past, present and future tense. 'Aru' and 'iru' (both are is, inanimate and animate respectively) is vastly different from 'atta' or 'itta' (both are was, inanimate and animate.)

 

[Dashell]

How many times do you have to explicitly state, "X is my lover" in real life?

... what? O_o

So you don't think Nojima kept narrative consistency and tone in mind when writing his novellas? That's pretty cold criticism to level on the guy, especially considering he kept said tone and perspective consistent in his stories.

Oh for the love of XD
You know what I mean... or do you really not?....
The point I was trying to make is I think if Nojima wanted to make it one sided he would have written it differently. Hence why I asked you to provide me with examples of one sided koibitos... which you did with one so... good for you.

...So I guess then you'll only believe that the person in Lifestream White is Aerith unless Nojima tells you in person, since you're resistant to accepting what is obvious through context.

I'm not the only one...
And it doesn't have to be in person, I'll take an email or a phone call

You're not in the majority.

What else is new?

Funny that they've kinda already said that with Cloud and Tifa's excerpt from this novella, their entry in the Crisis Core Complete Guide, their entry in the Crisis Core Ultimania, Aerith's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and Zack's profile in the Dengeki PS3 2009 issue featuring profiles for ACC.

... uhm do you mean those things don't show CxT?

Except it does, because they've consistently labeled and placed their relationship in a romantic context. The closest C/A have been in regards to romance in terms of creator commentary is Nojima referring to the two as hypothetical.

ANd Cait Sith as KtR pointed out