So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Reith123]

thank you kenosha, he felt guilty about Aeriths death and wanted his sins forgiven and he felt so hopeless and tifa tried convincing him otherwise. HE SIMPLY WANTED HIS SINS FORGIVEN, and in ACC cloud says "Hey, i feel a bit lighter now.", yay for cloud gaining confidence back ^^.

he doesnt visit the church because he romantically loves her or loves her to the point he lives there and not with the fam, but he wants to be forgiven so he stays near the church.

 

[Ⓐaron]

So wait, now context matters in the use of koibito? ...Really?

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."
- Hito, from that infamous koibito wank thread.

So, Cloud is Aeris' lover. Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend. There, problem solved - Cloud's a whore.

The difference is that "koibito" in CoLW is from Aerith's perspective. She thinks he's her boyfriend because at that point she doesn't really have any way of knowing his feelings for Tifa - if memory serves, the fic happens shortly after her death and the Lifestream risqué scene hasn't happened yet. By contrast, when describing Tifa the word is being used by one of the creators to describe Tifa's role in relationship to another character. There simply isn't another character to whom this could apply, since Tifa quite plainly doesn't have feelings for any character other than Cloud, so by process of elimination it refers to Cloud.

That said, yes, Cloud is a whore

 

[Dashell]

So wait, now context matters in the use of koibito? ...Really?

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."
- Hito, from that infamous koibito wank thread.

So, Cloud is Aeris' lover. Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend. There, problem solved - Cloud's a whore.

I support both parts of it. If anyone ever said context did NOT matter, they were wrong
But hito did say it could be subjective at one point.

 

[Zee]

The difference is that "koibito" in CoLW is from Aerith's perspective. She thinks he's her boyfriend because at that point she doesn't really have any way of knowing his feelings for Tifa - if memory serves, the fic happens shortly after her death and the Lifestream risqué scene hasn't happened yet.

Yeah, but Aeris isn't... delusional. Why would she think someone was her lover if they weren't? Why would the creators specifically have her use this word to describe him if there was no romantic relationship there?

Also if it happens pre-lifestream and such then it would still be valid, as Cloud and Tifa hadn't yet established any kind of relationship. Jus' sayin'.

 

[Dashell]

if memory serves, the fic happens shortly after her death and the Lifestream risqué scene hasn't happened yet.

No I'm pretty sure it happened after Sephiroth was defeated by Cloud at the end of FFVII. CoLB says that Cloud twice defeated him. Once in Nebelheim (Im sorry I have no idea how to spell that without looking it up and I CBA) and then the time in FFVII.

 

[KissTheRain]

So, Cloud is Aeris' lover. Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend. There, problem solved - Cloud's a whore.

That's what i've been trying to say all along! The whole LTD is just a simple code for a 3 way.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If I say "Cloud was Tifa's koibito blah blah" to a Clerith, they'll bring up CoLW's koibito. And do you really think that any amount of "It's in past tense" or "context" will make them change their minds?
hint:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

it won't

Except A: It is not Cloud who is the koibito to Tifa, but Tifa who is the koibito to Cloud.
B: Except it IS written IN THE PAST TENSE. You cannot translate a sentence fragment and expect that to be the full thing.

I would first like to know how often the word koibito is used to describe someone's feelings in Japan before I comment on this. I have a feeling it's very little.

Your feeling is wrong.

From the research I did (yes Que can research ) it means lover in a two sided relationship. No one ever said "It can describe feelings" or "Sometimes someone will use it to show how important one is to someone." so ... yeah... show me several instances of koibito being used to describe feelings or to show how important someone is where person B does NOT reciprocate the feelings and I'll back down.

The episode of Uresei Yatsura where Ataru repeatedly claims Nurse Sakura as his koibito in counter to the vampiric summoner who also claims Sakura as her koibito.
For one.

And anyone who DOES NOT know FFVII very well is going to assume they were a couple.

Anyone who does not know FFVII very well won't get that 'the woman' is Aerith.
Or be reading the novella.

Why does Tifa being an important woman to Cloud automatically lead to romance?
see what I did there?

Yes. And it's a failure because Tifa being an important woman to Cloud is merely on little cluster of the 500+ piece jigsaw puzzle that is the C/T case. And the best piece about this puzzle, even if we are missing a few pieces hither and tither, we have so much of the complete picture that those missing bits don't mean we can't see the whole picture. Just because piece 425 and 178 are missing, it doesn't mean we can't see the mill by the lovely flowing brook in the woods.

Look I'm not trying to say he didn't know what he was doing But from what I know... koibito is generally two sided love relationship... so it seems odd that Nojima would use that word and not mean it to be just that.

And it seems more odd for Nomura to use it and not mean it, since he was speaking of matters of fact and Noj was putting words in someone's mouth.

Now if you provide me examples of it being used to show someone's importance to another person, I told you I'd back down. You provided one so far, and that's fine, but I would like to see some more just so I can be sure.

See above.

Or, to summarise:

They claim it doesn't match PTSD.

And Zee, I, at least, have always held that 'beloved' has been a perfectly accurate way to render Koibito. And I feel perfectly comfortable holding that equal standard to both instances.
Or hell, give 'lover' to both of them too, and then examine both of them in the overall context as well.

 

[Zee]

That's what i've been trying to say all along! The whole LTD is just a simple quote for a 3 way.

3 ways are the best solution in any situation!

Also Quexinos is right, which means CoL probably happens around the same time the other Cases do.

EDIT: Holy crap, Ryu, that post was ninja-like. D:

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah, but Aeris isn't... delusional. Why would she think someone was her lover if they weren't?

Because she was dealing with ZaCloud the whole time she knew him. She knew enough to know that he wasn't behaving as his true self, but that's all she knew. ZaCloud definitely would have given off the impression that he was romantically interested in her, but once he regained his true personality he became a completely different person. Or at least, a largely different person.

No I'm pretty sure it happened after Sephiroth was defeated by Cloud at the end of FFVII. CoLB says that Cloud twice defeated him. Once in Nebelheim (Im sorry I have no idea how to spell that without looking it up and I CBA) and then the time in FFVII.

orly? opps, guess I forgot about that.

Nibelheim btw

 

[Ryushikaze]

Uh, Zee, the other OTWAS take place anywhere from the start of FF7 to two years after ACC), in the first few months after FF7, to the two years between ff7 and acc to even years prior to FF7.

 

[KissTheRain]

3 ways are the best solution in any situation!

YES! But how can we get the rest to see it...

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

YES! But how can we get the rest to see it...

no AerTi OTP.

 

[Dashell]

Except A: It is not Cloud who is the koibito to Tifa, but Tifa who is the koibito to Cloud.

But if it's mutual, what difference does it make

Messing with you aside, that's an excellent point.

Your feeling is wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

The episode of Uresei Yatsura where Ataru repeatedly claims Nurse Sakura as his koibito in counter to the vampiric summoner who also claims Sakura as her koibito.
For one.

I'm assuming the feelings were not reciprocated then, right?

And it seems more odd for Nomura to use it and not mean it, since he was speaking of matters of fact and Noj was putting words in someone's mouth.

I never said Nomura didn't mean it. Of course he did.
The thing is a LOT of Clotis told Cleriths that koibito only had one meaning. ONE! I'm not saying ALL Clotis did this, but a lot of them said that it had ONE meaning and that was a mutual relationship. PERIOD! No other meaning was possible! So of COURSE when koibito is used for Aerith, they're going to say "Hey this means mutual relationship" and be pissed when Clotis say, "Nope, sorry it's about context!"

Now I KNOW Cleriths backpedaled on the koibito issue as well. I'm not saying they didn't, I KNOW they did so please don't throw that at me. Suddenly it didn't mean "One who loves" or "person who is adored" or whatever else they said. But the point is, some Clotis screwed up and that's why Cleriths are angry about it. They want them to admit they were wrong.. both sides need to do this. Again not saying anyone HERE do this, but... some did.

And Zee, I, at least, have always held that 'beloved' has been a perfectly accurate way to render Koibito. And I feel perfectly comfortable holding that equal standard to both instances.
Or hell, give 'lover' to both of them too, and then examine both of them in the overall context as well.

I agree with this. Just use sweetheart or lover like it was originally planned. Was there any reason beloved was decided upon? Any good reason?

 

[Zee]

Uh, Zee, the other OTWAS take place anywhere from the start of FF7 to two years after ACC), in the first few months after FF7, to the two years between ff7 and acc to even years prior to FF7.

Wait, what? I was thinking only CoT and like...Case of Denzel, that take place post FF7.

...I missed a hell of a lot. )8

Because she was dealing with ZaCloud the whole time she knew him. She knew enough to know that he wasn't behaving as his true self, but that's all she knew. ZaCloud definitely would have given off the impression that he was romantically interested in her, but once he regained his true personality he became a completely different person. Or at least, a largely different person.

That brings us back to that circle of the argument which...ugh, I don't feel like having a massive headache right now, but why the hell not, I've got a good 30 minutes.

Zack didn't spirit!sex Cloud's head. Cloud was messed up, but he was still Cloud. He used Zack's mannerisms and took credit for his heroics, but...it was still him. It's not like Zack's possessing Cloud when he flirts with Aeris - it's Cloud using Zack's mannerisms to flirt with Aeris.

Also, he's not a completely different person when he regains himself. He's actually...largely the same, if not a bit more optimistic and less with the flashy headaches. His asshole front is the only thing that I can think of that would count as being a large personality change, but that didn't last long even in the first disk, so...

Still, this doesn't explain why she'd consider them lovers. If she truly only saw the Zack in him, and later recognized that wasn't what she wanted, then why would she consider them to be so close? That still doesn't make sense.

 

[KissTheRain]

What I always hated about people that say that Aerith only loved Cloud for Zack, because it makes her character more shallow and desperate which I never saw her as. :/ I understand her intitial interest was because of the Zack qualities, but the love? No..

 

[Dashell]

The thing is, you usually love a person for some reason... and when you move on from that person, you generally pick another person that's similar because you like those traits. Cloud shared similar traits with Zack. It doesn't mean Aerith can't move on, it just means she likes those traits in a guy.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Zack didn't spirit!sex Cloud's head. Cloud was messed up, but he was still Cloud. He used Zack's mannerisms and took credit for his heroics, but...it was still him. It's not like Zack's possessing Cloud when he flirts with Aeris - it's Cloud using Zack's mannerisms to flirt with Aeris.

That's an interesting interpretation. Unfortunately, the Ultimania doesn't support it - it explicitly says that Cloud isn't in control of much of his actions on the first disc. Which makes sense, since it wouldn't be like the real Cloud to beat the crap out of Aerith or give the Black Materia to Sephiroth either, and yet these are things he still does before the Lifestream scene occurs and he regains control of himself.

I do agree that the actual personality differences aren't that huge and there probably are a good number of the real Cloud's mannerisms lurking behind the Jenova shield, but there definitely isn't enough to show that Cloud's feelings for Aerith were anything more than platonic. Moreover, there is very good reason for Jenova to want to manipulate Cloud to flirt with Aerith - Cloud is more or less vulnerable to Jenova's manipulations, but is believed by Aerith, with her defences lowered by his flirting, to be her protector. Effectively, Cloud is a puppet.

Still, this doesn't explain why she'd consider them lovers. If she truly only saw the Zack in him, and later recognized that wasn't what she wanted, then why would she consider them to be so close? That still doesn't make sense.

I think here you've misread what I'm saying. She read ZaCloud's behaviour as signifying they were romantically involved. It has nothing to do with what she saw in him - she could very well have gotten to know the real Cloud and still fallen for him. What I'm arguing about is what she saw in his behaviour.

Also yeah, what Ryu said about the use of the past tense is pretty important.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

What I always hated about people that say that Aerith only loved Cloud for Zack, because it makes her character more shallow and desperate which I never saw her as. :/ I understand her intitial interest was because of the Zack qualities, but the love? No..

I agree with Quexi here. It'd be like Tifa falling for someone who acted similar to Cloud. Not because she's looking for a Cloud replacement, but because she happens to like Cloud's personality so she looks for people with similar traits.

 

[Dashell]

That's an interesting interpretation. Unfortunately, the Ultimania doesn't support it - it explicitly says that Cloud isn't in control of much of his actions on the first disc. Which makes sense, since it wouldn't be like the real Cloud to beat the crap out of Aerith or give the Black Materia to Sephiroth either, and yet these are things he still does before the Lifestream scene occurs and he regains control of himself.

Except it was more Jenova than Zack And if Cloud wasn't in control of his actions at all why didn't he kill Aerith? He had control sometimes I think.

I agree with Quexi here. It'd be like Tifa falling for someone who acted similar to Cloud. Not because she's looking for a Cloud replacement, but because she happens to like Cloud's personality so she looks for people with similar traits.

I... wow... wow thanks

 

[KissTheRain]

It doesn't mean Aerith can't move on, it just means she likes those traits in a guy.

So what happens after she sees real Cloud? To hell with him...? /: She seems pretty eager to wanna meet someone different aka the real Cloud so maybe she isn't all for the hyper optimists. Personally I like pairing Aerith with emos. XD

 

[Dashell]

So what happens after she sees real Cloud? To hell with him...? /: She seems pretty eager to wanna meet someone different aka the real Cloud so maybe she isn't all for the hyper optimists. Personally I like pairing Aerith with emos. XD

I was helping you
My point was it's not that Aerith didn't move on from Zack, but that she likes a certain quality in men and Cloud has them.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So what happens after she sees real Cloud? To hell with him...? /: She seems pretty eager to wanna meet someone different aka the real Cloud so maybe she isn't all for the hyper optimists. Personally I like pairing Aerith with emos. XD

IDK if that's all she liked about Zack. Perhaps she liked his Alpha Male attitude and his take-chargeness (which ZaCloud has.)

No one's saying she would have been "ew" when she met the real Cloud, it's just what may have initially attracted her to him.

 

[Zee]

That's an interesting interpretation. Unfortunately, the Ultimania doesn't support it - it explicitly says that Cloud isn't in control of much of his actions on the first disc. Which makes sense, since it wouldn't be like the real Cloud to beat the crap out of Aerith or give the Black Materia to Sephiroth either, and yet these are things he still does before the Lifestream scene occurs and he regains control of himself.

I agree in those two instances, but in both cases it was pretty clear when Cloud wasn't in control - for example, him attempting to kill Aeris right before Sephiroth does. All of those things are not just out of character, but we can clearly see Sephiroth is manipulating him for his own goals. That's a little different than what happens with him and Zack; he's not being openly manipulated, his fractured mind simply swallowed the qualities he admired about Zack, but it's Cloud himself who wanted it. He says himself that he lied about those things.

I think here you've misread what I'm saying. She read ZaCloud's behaviour as signifying they were romantically involved. It has nothing to do with what she saw in him - she could very well have gotten to know the real Cloud and still fallen for him. What I'm arguing about is what she saw in his behaviour.

Alright, I get you, but I'm still...okay, here's my problem with this. On the date she tells Cloud his Zacklike behavior is bothering her and she wants the real him. So aside from an argument about how much she knew or didn't know about him, she's rejecting those mannerisms, that behavior. Either this means she read something in the real Cloud that indicated romance, or ...she's crazy, idk.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Okay so what I wanna know is.. Let's say that Case of Lifestream:White's koibito really is saying that Cloud and Aerith are(or were)lovers.

When did this happen? How does what is shown that actually is between Cloud and Aerith amount to an actual relationship?

We see Aerith and Cloud(that is, if you you made choices for Cloud that indicate romantic interest/flirting and stuff) interact as though they are attracted to each other, and with Aerith without a doubt it's strong(within five minutes she's offering to go out on a date with him, and she's always flirting and calling him her hero).

But even picking the most lovey-dovey responses you can for Cloud to Aerith, how are they enough to make them lovers?

I might be rambling, sorry. I just don't get that.

 

[Madame Mayor]

@ All of you saying that Aerith wasn't falling for the Zack but actually parts of Cloud and so on and so forth...

There are tons of quotes saying she did just that, was falling for the Zack, saw the Zack in Cloud. If the original game didn't clue you in enough they repeat everything she does with Cloud with Zack in CC to show just how mirrored the two relationships were.

I'm sorry if you think it makes Aerith shallow and desperate, but she's not. Maybe a bit desperate to meet Zack again on the inside. It's not like she's going after Cloud completely consciously because of it. She's aware of the similarities, but remember she herself doesn't know that Cloud's actually messed up and actually acting exactly like Zack (or exactly like parts of Zack).

It's not just some guy who is kind of like him. This is a guy who's personality is being formed partially by the very man who she loved and who died. He falls through her roof, they go to the park, he has the same eyes, clothes, sword... no one can blame Aerith for wanting to find out the reason why, or for falling for him a bit.

I don't believe Aerith was actually 'in love' with Cloud though. Even ZaCloud. It's such a small amount of time they know each other and even then, there's a lot going on. Especially on her date. I always took her lines to be, "I fell kind of fast for you because you remind me so much of my old boyfriend, but now I'm ready to back up and try again looking at you for YOU, and not for him."

@Legretta: That's exactly how most of us feel. It doesn't make sense if that is what Aerith was saying, because they flat out weren't. Even if Cloud loved Aerith and Aerith loved Cloud, they are never shown as actual "lovers".