So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Makoeyes987]

@Mako Eyes- Okay, okay then let's really talk. For one, i've gotta do some shit soon so this will be my last or 2nd to last post so you guys know i'm not ditching you, k?

I'm going to hold you to that....

I know that Cloud and Aerith don't have anything as solid as Cloud and Tifa, but I do know indeed that all their little tid bits mean something.(or at least I think so) Such as, Aerith calls Cloud her beloved/bf/sweetheart whatever, fan translations suck which balances out with Tifa's sweetheart because it was the same exact kanji right?

I'm not sure what fan translations you're reading but I'm pretty confident in hitoshura's work which has surpassed some of the official translations by far. In regards to your point, I'm glad you acknowledge that C/A doesn't hold a candle in terms of canon towards C/A. We're making strides here.

Their "tid bits" mean something, yes. They mean they care about each other. But how does that automatically cross over into the romantic sphere? Is it not entirely possible for them to have an emotional and caring connection that is platonic and still loving? Where is this romance and partnership?

Next, I know you could easily say that Cloud only feels guilt for Aerith, but to seperate his feelings from a group and call them "undying" pushes stronger feelings from Cloud for Aerith. Another part would be Cloud leaving his family, possibly before he even had geostigma, to go to Aerith's church and says things like "I think Aerith brought Denzel to us" clearly shows he is thinking of her quite a lot.

No one's saying Aerith isn't important to Cloud. It's the whole "Aerith is Cloud's lover/past lover" that is being questioned. Aerith was important to Cloud but if you're going to try to shoehorn his feelings of guilt and sadness into feelings of romantic love, you need proof of said romantic love. Of course Cloud isn't going to forget Aerith. But how is that automatically, romance?

Then we have the date with Aerith which is the default one, also you could count them at the park a date so that makes them have something of a date, at least it counted when Zack did the same sorta thing. Another part, that gives them "canon points" would be what the Cait Sith said about their compatibility which just makes it cute if anything. Yeah, yeah it's just a damn cat but he sorta helped right? XD I think that's some stuff that sorta shows it. *shrugs*

So a fun date, where they don't even touch or kiss, is indicative of romance? Not only that, but they only knew each other for 2 weeks at most.

And its funny you bring up Cait Sith, since the FFVII Ultimania Omega explicitly states his fortunes are mostly wrong.

But of course I don't think Cloud and Aerith is canon because Cloti has so many perks that even it out just about, more or less. Like their promise right in the beginning of the game for one. And quotes like Tifa is an important women, sweetheart, etc etc. I don't think I have to go too far into detail about why Cloti is amazing seeing you are all *Clotis*.

I'll just say now another thing. I think Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa, but is/was not dating either. Just so you know...

No one is saying Cloud doesn't love Aerith. Clearly he feels love for her. However, we're talking about romantic love. Cloud clearly cares about her and loves her like a close friend and important person who made an impact on his life. But Tifa's love is something different and romantic. That's the point.

I'm glad we're finally starting to make some headway here.

 

[Isabella]

Ugh. I mean seriously, UGH.

Why does Cloud think about Aerith in CoT, visit her church and stuff? Who knows, it's all a great big mystery. Oh wait. No it's not BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD WHY. He blames himself for her death. He's seeking redemption for his failure. He thinks he can find it at the church. He thinks Denzel is the answer: If he can save the boy, he CAN HAVE HIS REDEMPTION FOR HIS "SIN."

People tearing their own lives apart out of guilt over another isn't new to fiction or to real life. Try chatting with war veterans sometime. Their families are torn apart just as Cloud and Tifa's is.

Stop trying to make it about romance before Bella has to smack a bitch.

 

[Makoeyes987]

... what? O_o

That would be the context of having to use the "koibito" word a lot in real life.

Oh for the love of XD
You know what I mean... or do you really not?....
The point I was trying to make is I think if Nojima wanted to make it one sided he would have written it differently. Hence why I asked you to provide me with examples of one sided koibitos... which you did with one so... good for you.

Do you know what you mean? Because you saying Nojima didn't keep that in mind when he wrote that and chose the word "koibito" for Aerith, means exactly that. I don't understand how you can say Nojima didn't put that much thought into it, when clearly he did, and the intent is quite obvious. You arguing that he's only haphazardly writing makes no sense.

He doesn't need to write it any other way to show its one-sided and not indicative of Cloud's feelings, because the entire novella is just from Aerith's point of view. Cloud's feelings and thoughts play no part in it. Why would he need to write it any other way, when it's clearly just Aerith's thoughts and feelings?

And it doesn't have to be in person, I'll take an email or a phone call

Not funny, try harder. That's a legitimate point. You can't say you'll only take what Nojima says explicitly in regards to context, when you accept the fact that its Aerith in Lifestream White, without it being explicitly stated, and you only infer that through context. It's the same thing.

... uhm do you mean those things don't show CxT?

No, I'm listening examples of materials that say exactly what you just said doesn't.

CLOUD AND TIFA ARE ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED NOW!

Nojima's commentary on Case of Tifa, their entry in the Crisis Core Complete Guide, their entry in the Crisis Core Ultimania, and the Reunion Files state this.

AERITH IS WITH ZACK IN THE LIFESTREAM

Aerith's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and Zack's profile in the Dengeki PS3 2009 issue featuring profiles for ACC. state this.

ANd Cait Sith as KtR pointed out

As I've stated, Cait's fortunes are usually wrong.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Do you know what you mean? Because you saying Nojima didn't keep that in mind when he wrote that and chose the word "koibito" for Aerith, means exactly that. I don't understand how you can say Nojima didn't put that much thought into it, when clearly he did, and the intent is quite obvious. You arguing that he's only haphazardly writing makes no sense.

He doesn't need to write it any other way to show its one-sided and not indicative of Cloud's feelings, because the entire novella is just from Aerith's point of view. Cloud's feelings and thoughts play no part in it. Why would he need to write it any other way, when it's clearly just Aerith's thoughts and feelings?

It should've gone like this:

Cloud was her friend, her beloved, even though she knew that her love was one-sided because her boobs were small.

 

[Isabella]

Or, Cloud's a symbol of everything worth protecting ... friends, loves, etc. One other possible interpretation of that line.

 

[Dashell]

That would be the context of having to use the "koibito" word a lot in real life.

oooohhh I see...

Do you know what you mean? Because you saying Nojima didn't keep that in mind when he wrote that and chose the word "koibito" for Aerith, means exactly that. I don't understand how you can say Nojima didn't put that much thought into it, when clearly he did, and the intent is quite obvious. You arguing that he's only haphazardly writing makes no sense.

He doesn't need to write it any other way to show its one-sided and not indicative of Cloud's feelings, because the entire novella is just from Aerith's point of view. Cloud's feelings and thoughts play no part in it. Why would he need to write it any other way, when it's clearly just Aerith's thoughts and feelings?

Look I'm not trying to say he didn't know what he was doing But from what I know... koibito is generally two sided love relationship... so it seems odd that Nojima would use that word and not mean it to be just that. Now if you provide me examples of it being used to show someone's importance to another person, I told you I'd back down. You provided one so far, and that's fine, but I would like to see some more just so I can be sure.

You can't say you'll only take what Nojima says explicitly in regards to context, when you accept the fact that its Aerith in Lifestream White, without it being explicitly stated, and you only infer that through context. It's the same thing.

Point taken. I guess it's not fair for me to imply you know nothing about what Nojima meant. But no one knows what he meant more than him, right?

No, I'm listening examples of materials that say exactly what you just said doesn't.

okay I got confused by your phrasing.
Oh I see, well I agree with you of course, but I'm telling you unless we have them saying exactly word for word what I just said, it's never going to end. ... unless Cloud and Tifa get married in the next game while Zack and Aerith look on and then share a kiss or something. ... Awww, that'd be so sweet ;

Cloud was her friend, her beloved, even though she knew that her love was one-sided because her boobs were small.

fhdakjfhkjdfas! That has to be sigged!

Or, Cloud's a symbol of everything worth protecting ... friends, loves, etc. One other possible interpretation of that line.

That's actually pretty cool. I like that. Is that what Hito was trying to say a few days ago?

 

[Isabella]

That's actually pretty cool. I like that. Is that what Hito was trying to say a few days ago?

Yes, I believe he was.

And if your standard for the LT being resolved is that everyone accepts it, then you're right ... it will never be solved. But then, we'll also never really know whether the Earth is round, or whether evolution is taking place.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Look I'm not trying to say he didn't know what he was doing But from what I know... koibito is generally two sided love relationship... so it seems odd that Nojima would use that word and not mean it to be just that. Now if you provide me examples of it being used to show someone's importance to another person, I told you I'd back down. You provided one so far, and that's fine, but I would like to see some more just so I can be sure.

You can't really say a word "generally" means anything. A word's context is just as important as its definition. Language and translation isn't just about what the dictionary says, it also involves context. The context of a word and its usage plays just as an important part in its meaning and purpose as does its definition and use in society.

That's something you'll have to wait for then. But I don't understand why a word's use in another, unrelated piece of media/situation/etc means more to you in regards to understanding, versus the context of the story, which is important and understandable regardless of what culture you're in. Koibito isn't a sacred, purely specific Japanese idiom, that only means one thing in one particular context or situation.

Point taken. I guess it's not fair for me to imply you know nothing about what Nojima meant. But no one knows what he meant more than him, right?

Well of course, but he didn't make his work impenetrable. The entire purpose of writing is to make it easy to understand what your intentions are in regards to the story. It's not hard to understand.

okay I got confused by your phrasing.
Oh I see, well I agree with you of course, but I'm telling you unless we have them saying exactly word for word what I just said, it's never going to end. ... unless Cloud and Tifa get married in the next game while Zack and Aerith look on and then share a kiss or something. ... Awww, that'd be so sweet ;

Well, again, just because people are gonna be thick and stubborn, doesn't mean the facts are any less factual. That just means they can't accept the truth and are deluding themselves.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

fhdakjfhkjdfas! That has to be sigged!

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Yes, I believe he was.

And if your standard for the LT being resolved is that everyone accepts it, then you're right ... it will never be solved. But then, we'll also never really know whether the Earth is round, or whether evolution is taking place.

then Harry Potter, Avatar the Last Airbender and Maduin knows what else will never be resolved.

 

[Dashell]

But I don't understand why a word's use in another, unrelated piece of media/situation/etc means more to you in regards to understanding, versus the context of the story, which is important and understandable regardless of what culture you're in. Koibito isn't a sacred, purely specific Japanese idiom, that only means one thing in one particular context or situation.

Well I know that much. I'm just saying what I know. Not saying "THIS IS TRUE!" i'm saying" I KNOW THIS MUCH! PROVE ME WRONG!" I mean, keep in mind I hang out with people who think nakama and haki are magical words that have no possible English translations.

I just like to see these things for myself is all. I'm not saying it CAN'T be... I just would like to be able to see the evidence for myself and make my own decision.

And if your standard for the LT being resolved is that everyone accepts it, then you're right ... it will never be solved. But then, we'll also never really know whether the Earth is round, or whether evolution is taking place

I would just like something the other side can't argue against is all. ... all though I'm curious now, how do people who think the earth is flat argue against pictures of the earth from space? O_o

Anyway, thanks for the debate, time to go make dinner

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

so uh why is the One Piece fandom convinced nakama is sacred but Bleach fandom doesn't seem to give two shits?

 

[Makoeyes987]

People will always argue as long as they don't like something. You're wishing for the impossible Quexinos.

There will always be conflict.

And the reason for this debate was you saying that both instance of "koibito" being used were equal. Which I hope now you understand they aren't.

 

[Dashell]

so uh why is the One Piece fandom convinced nakama is sacred but Bleach fandom doesn't seem to give two shits?

Blame the fansubbers who basically implied this at one point

And the reason for this debate was you saying that both instance of "koibito" being used were equal. Which I hope now you understand they aren't.

Well I didn't mean equal I meant negated... which kinda does mean equal now that you mention it...

 

[Reith123]

Well like Quex said, we didnt get a "CLOUD AND TIFA ARE ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED NOW! AERITH IS WITH ZACK IN THE LIFESTREAM, THE END" from either Nojima or Nomura, so i also think it wont be ending any time soon, despite the facts and mountains of evidence or the obvious statements, quotes, and points that make C/T work. Cleriths could use this to keep the LTD going, but with all the evidence and whatnot, id say its pretty clear as to whats what IMO.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I would just like something the other side can't argue against is all. ... all though I'm curious now, how do people who think the earth is flat argue against pictures of the earth from space? O_o

The same way Clerii argue that Cloud and Tifa aren't romantically together even though it's been said/shown they are.

The same way HarryxHermione shippers will argue they are the intended pairing/true love even though they are paired off differently.

Rather than asking us for examples of people saying, "X is my koibito" and the said koibito not feeling the same, we could probably find hundreds of fandoms where fans argue against the creator's own words. It's just the way things work. People get their ideas about a story and no word of god is going to change their minds.

If you think a kiss between Cloud and Tifa will stop them then you don't know your pinker friends well enough.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

tbqh, I don't give a crap if Cloud loved Aerith at one point. But he can also love Tifa. There's nothing that says he's forever pining after her and cannot love Tifa because she isn't Aerith.

 

[Dashell]

If you think a kiss between Cloud and Tifa will stop them then you don't know your pinker friends well enough.

Hey I said a wedding as well And I think that would stop the bulk of them.... I think A lot of them said they'd be okay if Cloti was canon...

Where as I'm not sure how Clotis would react if in some weird twist of fate that won't ever happen, Clerith somehow became canon.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Hey I said a wedding as well And I think that would stop the bulk of them.... I think A lot of them said they'd be okay if Cloti was canon...

Where as I'm not sure how Clotis would react if in some weird twist of fate that won't ever happen, Clerith somehow became canon.

He's pretending she's Aerith, he's only doing it because Tifa provided an ultimatum, she's being possessed by Aerith and Cloud knows it, take your pick rly.

 

[Dashell]

she's being possessed by Aerith and Cloud knows it,

That's why I said Aerith and Zack would have to watch on and kiss or something... I got nothing for the other one though

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

That's why I said Aerith and Zack would have to watch on and kiss or something... I got nothing for the other one though

No, no, Aerith will actually be Tifa. In spirit. Tifa will stand aside and allow herself to be possessed because she knows Cloud loves Aerith/Tifa will have her spirit forced out of her because she was being a crazy bitch. Duh.

 

[Madame Mayor]

A lot of them said they'd be okay if Cloti was canon...

They weren't saying that even two years ago. It was blasphemy to even think that Cloud and Aerith weren't completely in love and anyone who thought otherwise was delusional. They've said a lot of things over the years that they've taken back or "changed their minds" on. So why believe they'd accept Cloti as canon after years of effort to prove it false?

 

[Ⓐaron]

Ugh. I mean seriously, UGH.

Why does Cloud think about Aerith in CoT, visit her church and stuff? Who knows, it's all a great big mystery. Oh wait. No it's not BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD WHY. He blames himself for her death. He's seeking redemption for his failure. He thinks he can find it at the church. He thinks Denzel is the answer: If he can save the boy, he CAN HAVE HIS REDEMPTION FOR HIS "SIN."

People tearing their own lives apart out of guilt over another isn't new to fiction or to real life. Try chatting with war veterans sometime. Their families are torn apart just as Cloud and Tifa's is.

Stop trying to make it about romance before Bella has to smack a bitch.

Or, to summarise:

Bitches don't know 'bout my Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

 

[Zee]

So wait, now context matters in the use of koibito? ...Really?

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."
- Hito, from that infamous koibito wank thread.

So, Cloud is Aeris' lover. Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend. There, problem solved - Cloud's a whore.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So wait, now context matters in the use of koibito? ...Really?

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."
- Hito, from that infamous koibito wank thread.

So, Cloud is Aeris' lover. Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend. There, problem solved - Cloud's a whore.

I support this statement.