So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

... it's not... oh well sorry I don't know what the quote is... do you have it handy by chance? ... ;

And I dunno, how old is Aerith in CC?... 15 16?

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

I mean they were young and didn't Nomura say that Aerith and Zack were too young to really be in love?

What exactly did that quote say again? :/

 

[Zee]

They bother her because she knows that IS what's attracting her, and she wants to move on. She says that, but at every opportunity brings up Zack. She also says they weren't that close, which is a lie. She gets upset finding out he wrote home about her. Aerith isn't outright lying about Zack, but she's a very confused girl.

How is that what's attracting her? If that's what you got out of it, fine, but I thought it was pretty obvious that if something is bugging you it's not attracting you

She brings up Zack because she never had the chance to talk about his death before. Cloud brings up these old wounds and she finally has a chance to deal with it. She says they weren't that close not because she's lying to herself, but because hey, if you hadn't noticed, Aeris doesn't exactly volunteer a bunch of personal stuff about her. While she was opening up to Cloud, she wasn't going to say, "Hey stranger! You remind me so much of my dead ex boyfriend, and I realllllly liked him, hey - this conversation isn't freaking you out is it?"

What exactly is she confused about? The date shows this was something on her mind for a while, so she seemed to have sorted it out at the very least, in her head. She knows Cloud isn't Zack, and doesn't want Zack. Where's the confusion?

We you saying that the above definition is what you think koibito means? I don't wanna waste time posting about it if I'm misunderstanding.

Not what I think it means, that is what it means.

edit, last response, must sleep. niiiight!

 

[Madame Mayor]

Well I think koibito in CoLW proves she loved him... hey... how about that?

Honestly, I think what Isabella pointed out earlier makes a lot more sense to what that line means than that she's still confused. Because it's not her saying they were lovers, because they weren't. So either she's saying she sees Cloud as her previous lover when she was alive, even though that never happens, or she sees Cloud as a symbol of certain things.

 

[Dashell]

Oh that's right, she did make that good point. I completely forgot... sorry my bad, forget I said that

 

[Madame Mayor]

... it's not... oh well sorry I don't know what the quote is... do you have it handy by chance? ...

Nojima: The setting that “falling from the roof of the Church” repeats Aerith’s encounter with Cloud was decided in the beginning. Though we’re talking about love, they are still young back then and there’s no time to describe “how they become fond of each other” in the game. So I made it like “falling into a sudden crush.”

He's just saying that in the game they didn't have time to show them falling in love, so Aerith and Zack have this initial attraction right off the bat.

Unless it's another quote I'm forgetting... but I think that's it.

but I thought it was pretty obvious that if something is bugging you it's not attracting you

What's bugging her is that she wants to move on, and with Cloud reminding her so much of Zack it's making it hard.

The date shows this was something on her mind for a while, so she seemed to have sorted it out at the very least, in her head.

She's sorted out that she now wants to try to get to know Cloud for Cloud. As in, she hasn't already, but she's going to try harder than before to push the Zack parts out of her mind and focus on what makes Cloud unique (or what she thinks makes him unique in his current state).

If that's what you got out of it

There's a quote somewhere, I can't find the exact wording, but it says, "Aerith's feelings for Zack explain why she acts the way she does around Cloud in FFVII." That made all the confusion pretty clear to me.

 

[Reith123]

god i had to catch up for like 4 pages and lemme tell u, i got a massive headache, but i was following the basic point of it all..somewhat..lol

Anyway, just bringing this up, and we all know this but, when cloud was away didnt tifa check the paper every day for word of cloud? to me that screams "omg i have to know!..is he ok!? omg im so worried!" or something along the lines of feelings.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Anyway, just bringing this up, and we all know this but, when cloud was away didnt tifa check the paper every day for word of cloud? to me that screams "omg i have to know!..is he ok!? omg im so worried!" or something along the lines of feelings.

Yes, she does. I said earlier that for Tifa, she says in the lifestream that she had a bit of attraction to Cloud before he left, and then after that she realizes he meant more to her than she realized, than all the other boys.

 

[Reith123]

sorry like i said big headache, 3 pages, cant rememeber lol.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Oh no, it's alright. I was repeating myself so you didn't have to read all the pages.

To sum it up, the discussion is about whether or not Aerith was in love with the (or parts of) the real Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But it's okay for Tifa to love Cloud when she hardly knew him at all before he went off to Soldier. I mean how well did she really know him?... He thought she hated him. If she really knew him that well, why would he even think that?

/end Devil's advocate

She had several months to get to know him better from water tower to when he left the following spring.

ZaCloud is not some alternate being. It's Cloud using the mannerisms of this successful, impressive guy he wanted to be like.

It is Cloud having created an entire personality out of his, Zack's, Tifa's memories, and Jenova and Sephiroth's influences.

Furthermore, Aeris actually states several times she isn't falling for Zack in Cloud. If anything, it's quite the opposite. The similarities don't turn her on, they bother her. She also states that they are different, which means Cloud isn't stealing Zack's personality.

But He IS stealing it.
And Aerith only comments once that they are different, and that they are similar several times.
SHE USES ZACK'S LINES ON CLOUD for crying out loud!

Since Aeris knows Zack the best, she knows what parts are his and what to separate. The similarities of their meeting brought up the old wound and made a link between their stories, but she makes it pretty clear she doesn't want a replica of her ex-boyfriend.

Yes, but she is attracted to a partial xerox nontheless.

@Legretta: I don't think they ever got far enough to be in a relationship, however, I am of the belief there were mutual feelings involved. Really, if this story is telling us Aeris views him as her lover, I don't see the need to debate this. I don't see why they would purposely use this word if they weren't, as Aeris isn't a delusional person. If there was no indication of a mutual romantic feeling, then she wouldn't see him this way. And as I stated above, since she is rejecting the Zackisms, I don't see this "ZaCloud" as an excuse.

She's not rejecting the Zackisms. She's rejecting seeing him for just the Zackisms. We are told that the reason Aerith acts as she does toward Cloud in FF7 are revealed in FF7:CC, in short, because of her feelings for Zack.

Man, it's late and I'd have to dig back in the game some, but from what I can remember she doesn't seem to be trying to recreate those times with Zack, at the park, she talks about him to Cloud and gets kind of quiet. It never struck me that she was falling for Cloud because of the Zackisms, just that the similarities finally caused her to deal with something she really didn't before (because Aeris has no friends, and no one to talk to lol).

Zee, SHE USES HIS LINES, SOMETIMES VERBATIM. The places they hit up in Midgar, the things she does, all echoes of her time with Zack- who she has just felt die a few months prior and refuses to admit, I shall remind the crowd- who she still wears pink for in expectation of his return.

She's NOT over Zack. She's TRYING to get over him, but the heart doesn't always work conveniently.

 

[Reith123]

ok ryu lol u just epicly owned there, and i think aerith wasnt over zack IMO, she saw the zack in cloud and wanted to get over it but it bugged her because she wasnt over zack yet, THATS JUST IMO.

 

[Madame Mayor]

ok ryu lol u just epicly owned there, and i think aerith wasnt over zack IMO, she saw the zack in cloud and wanted to get over it but it bugged her because she wasnt over zack yet, THATS JUST IMO.

You don't have to call it just your opinion, it's stated very clearly to be that way. I wish I could find that exact quote, I think I'm close to it in what I posted before... I just can't seem to remember it exactly...

The fact that Aerith's actions towards Cloud even needed explaining tells you something's up.

 

[Reith123]

i wouldnt call it ironic tifa's votes are stopped at 69, but i gotta wonder.. lmao so off topic srry just had to point it out. anyway yeah i could use tht quote too, plz find it ^^

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

Not what I think it means, that is what it means.

I don't think they ever got far enough to be in a relationship, however, I am of the belief there were mutual feelings involved.

Ok, so you think that koibito means "one party of a mutual relationship" and must mean that two people are lovers in a romantic relationship, but you also think that they haven't progressed far enough to be called lovers in a romantic relationship, even though there are mutual feelings involved?

I don't see how they felt strongly enough for each other in the time they knew each other to be called lovers. Two people who are attracted to each other(although the degree of Cloud's affection can be changed by the player), but lovers?

Now it's my turn to go to sleep. Well, in a little while anyway.

 

[Dashell]

Ok, so you think that koibito means "one party of a mutual relationship" and must mean that two people are lovers in a romantic relationship, but you also think that they haven't progressed far enough to be called lovers in a romantic relationship, even though there are mutual feelings involved?

You and someone else can be in love with each other and not in a relationship. It just means you haven't confessed to one another. And I'm not saying this was true for Cloud and Aerith, I'm saying in general.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

I'm kinda wondering if I made any sense just now. But that's okay because I have two good excuses. I'm 13 and I'm really tired.

.... Oh sigh...

 

[Isabella]

You and someone else can be in love with each other and not in a relationship. It just means you haven't confessed to one another. And I'm not saying this was true for Cloud and Aerith, I'm saying in general.

We realize that, but the discussion is about whether Aerith's use of "koibito" means they were in a relationship, not just whether they had mutual feelings.

They knew each other 2-3 weeks, they never kissed ... feelings aside, how in the world is that the type of relationship implied by the word koibito?

 

[KissTheRain]

They knew each other 2-3 weeks, they never kissed ... feelings aside, how in the world is that the type of relationship implied by the word koibito?

They went on 1-2 dates more or less and talked/flirted and such. That sorta could imply they had a relationship going..? :/

 

[Isabella]

My understanding of "koibito" is that it implies a serious, exclusive relationship. You wouldn't call someone you've dated once or twice a koibito.

 

[Hinata Hyuga]

We realize that, but the discussion is about whether Aerith's use of "koibito" means they were in a relationship, not just whether they had mutual feelings.

They knew each other 2-3 weeks, they never kissed ... feelings aside, how in the world is that the type of relationship implied by the word koibito?

Yes, this is being what asking. I just get jumbled up and lose what I wanna say too easy.

 

[KissTheRain]

Well yeah, but they got to know each other and shit, you know. *shrugs* I wouldn't say 'koibito' means super and exclusive because the term "sweetheart" always came of as something of puppy love imo. O:

 

[Makoeyes987]

KissTheRain, you never did reply to my post. I told you I was holding you to it.

And I just love how Ryu and The Man, tagged in when I had to leave and thus kept this debate going. Awesome.

Well yeah, but they got to know each other and shit, you know. *shrugs* I wouldn't say 'koibito' means super and exclusive because the term "sweetheart" always came of as something of puppy love imo. O:

When in the game do Aerith and Cloud ever get to know each other at the same level Zack/Aerith do? That's the implication of calling them lovers. So...where does that fit?

 

[Dashell]

But you missed a fun debate Mako

Anyway on the "Sweetheart" thing, I asked about koibito on another forum and showed them the reunion pages, and I think this person summed it up nicely. This is someone who was born and raised in Japan BTW.

That's a sense of someone translating and using the correct term, incorrectly in English. Someone might describe her as their own 'sweetheart'. Like barbershop quartet style. It does not mean 'sweetheart' in the endearing sense, "Awww, aren't you a sweetheart." And that can easily be misconstrued the sense it's used in.

An appropriate translation would be "...a lover..", since it's talking about the roles she's assumed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Exactly.

I don't know what Cloti's you heard, saying "koibito" only means one thing, and one thing forever, but that's never been what Ryu or hitoshura ever meant. They specifically meant it in the context of "X creator/author/person referring to two people they know as lovers." You wouldn't knowingly call X person a "koibito" to Y, if the relationship was one-sided. The implication of a third party calling someone else another person "koibito" means that they are in fact in a relationship.