So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Isabella]

I agree with Drake and Mako. ACC really hammered in the family aspect. It doesn't leave Cloud's motivations up to interpretation nearly as much as AC did. Didn't an interview somewhere say they wanted to make ACC understandable for everyone, not just diehard fans? Eh, I read too many articles so they're all a jumble in my head.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I agree with Drake and Mako. ACC really hammered in the family aspect. It doesn't leave Cloud's motivations up to interpretation nearly as much as AC did. Didn't an interview somewhere say they wanted to make ACC understandable for everyone, not just diehard fans? Eh, I read too many articles so they're all a jumble in my head.

I believe they said something to that effect in one of the zerg rush of interviews that were done right on the eve of its release. That and how they also wanted to portray Geostigma as a disease that was *Gasp* actually cruel and painful! I mean, really! Who would've thought!

 

[Raquelborn]

@Drake.

Just curious, but do you still remain adamant that Cloud and Aerith are the canon love pair since your rethink?

I want someone to explain this to me so I understand it.

In what work of fiction when you have two(unrelated)adults living together are we suppose to assume that they are not in some sort of relationship?

I have looked up examples of "innocent co-habitation" and one thing that keeps popping up is that everyone in that fictional world assumes more is going on than it is. We the audience and people in those fictional worlds have to be specifically shown that nothing is really going on.

Careful. If you isolate the "undying feelings" quote and all the scenes of Cloud dragging himself down over Aerith then anyone you show that to is going to assume that Cloud and Aerith are lovers. The things that stop people thinking so are the Ultimania quotes, good understanding of the original plot and paying attention to the original game's cutscenes, (and possibly the church scene in AC/C when Cloud freaks out over Tifa being hurt).

Cloud and Tifa co-habiting (by Cloud's choice) is an extra screw in the construct but it's not a main point for demonstrating they're the canon couple. As, for one thing, unrelated opposite sex adults can live together and not be romantically involved. Like A said.

...Or did I just read what you said wrong?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

@Drake.

Just curious, but do you still remain adamant that Cloud and Aerith are the canon love pair since your rethink?

That's rather the whole point of a "rethink", isn't it?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's rather the whole point of a "rethink", isn't it?

LOL the man summed it up best

 

[Raquelborn]

That's rather the whole point of a "rethink", isn't it?

I guess what I'm trying to get you to say is...well you know.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

@ Drake: The fact that you are even taking into consideration the narrative and contemplating it, rethinking the circumstances and possibly opinion, it speaks volumes on your intelligence!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Careful. If you isolate the "undying feelings" quote and all the scenes of Cloud dragging himself down over Aerith then anyone you show that to is going to assume that Cloud and Aerith are lovers. The things that stop people thinking so are the Ultimania quotes, good understanding of the original plot and paying attention to the original game's cutscenes, (and possibly the church scene in AC/C when Cloud freaks out over Tifa being hurt).

Cloud and Tifa co-habiting (by Cloud's choice) is an extra screw in the construct but it's not a main point for demonstrating they're the canon couple. As, for one thing, unrelated opposite sex adults can live together and not be romantically involved. Like A said.

...Or did I just read what you said wrong?

I think what Vend is talking about is the fact that in the AC/C alone, the basic idea is that Cloud and Tifa are cohabitating, something that when it occurs elsewhere in Japanese and other tales, leads to both the in and out of universe presumption that the man and woman are an item, and must specifcally be rebutted because of this. And they further are taking care of two kids.
Why would the creators slam us with two of the biggest common indicators of a pairing (man and woman being the only two adults cohabitating AND man and woman raising kids) if they did not wish for it to be taken as such?

 

[Eerie]

Even if people often cohabite with other gender's sex nowadays, with just being friends, they never raise children together - let alone one of them who consider them as his parents.
Denzel, IMHO, is clearly there to cement this side of their relationship - that way, no one can say 'oh but they're only friends'. If you watch a movie with parents trying to save/protect their kid like they do, having a chat together like they do [my bf's WTF's face when he saw the Turks in the room during that scene was hilarious, he even asked me 'wtf are they doing there', as the convo between Cloud and Tifa felt very intimate] - there's no way you can say 'they're only friends'.

Because it shows Cloud hurting, being afraid of losing his family, of finding them again - ACC definitely puts that into perspective. The ending hammers Zerith, in case no one suspected anything regarding Aerith and Zack Which also contributes for the Clot and Zerith canon pairings, as opposed to Clerith [that simply doesn't fit in the narrative of the movie, and goes against what's being shown with Cloud finding his own Promise Land with Tifa and the kids and the very clearly Zerith pics at the end].

If anyone had doubts with AC, I think that ACC cleared them - and that was also SE's goal. Because they gave depth and prevented people to imagine that Cloud was going in lalaland with Aerith in a flower field at the end - I also think that it's why Aerith disappeared from the ending - and suddenly, it all makes sense.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

@ Drake: The fact that you are even taking into consideration the narrative and contemplating it, rethinking the circumstances and possibly opinion, it speaks volumes on your intelligence!

I hope that's a compliment....

If Clerith really isn't canon though, it's okay with me. Play Dissidia, Aerith may be dead, but Cloud managed to find himself another half-breed chick who likes flowers instead....

 

[Fairheartstrife]

I hope that's a compliment....

If Clerith really isn't canon though, it's okay with me.

I assure you, it is meant as a compliment.

I've seen Clerith as a fanon pairing done quite well, and there's nothing wrong with liking or even favoring it--however, it's not "which pairing is better" insomuch as it is "which pairing is canon". Opinions vary, but facts be facts.

Also, Dissidia is a wealth of crack pairings for sure.

 

[Raquelborn]

I think what Vend is talking about is the fact that in the AC/C alone, the basic idea is that Cloud and Tifa are cohabitating, something that when it occurs elsewhere in Japanese and other tales, leads to both the in and out of universe presumption that the man and woman are an item, and must specifcally be rebutted because of this. And they further are taking care of two kids.

Well, it's more to do with sharing a bedroom or a bed which usually comes strongly suggested in this circumstance, (which is why that can become a debate in itself). If Cloud and Tifa are living together but not sleeping in the same room or bed then it becomes a lot easier to see them as two close friends raising children together.

But yeah, we've gone over this and at the least it's reasonable to assume they're share a bedroom due to the absense of mention of any movement between rooms or even beds in the "do you love me" scene.

Why would the creators slam us with two of the biggest common indicators of a pairing (man and woman being the only two adults cohabitating AND man and woman raising kids) if they did not wish for it to be taken as such?

There are always exceptions to the general trend and therefore in themselves, the living arrangements are not enough to prove Cloud and Tifa as the canon couple. I think that's the point people like to make. Though they're certainly chucking everyone a big hint.

I'd also say that kiss and holding hands scenes are probably the biggest indicators of any pairing but both Cloud and Tifa and Cloud and Aerith lack these. That's then you go on to the next best hints, what we're discussing I suppose.

 

[Dashell]

So, where are the indicators that he romantically loves her back? I keep asking, but people keep failing to give examples.

That's the million dollar question. It keeps getting asked and literally, nobody answers.

The problem is you act like anyone who thinks Cloud loved Aerith is delusional when people here have pointed out that it seemed the game was going in the direction of Cloud and Aerith being the true couple until she was killed. Yes a lot of the stuff WAS optional, but the fact that they put it in there makes me think they wanted at least some people to see the game going in that direction. Several people saw a relationship developing. FFS I saw it I mean... come on if I saw it...
No one's ignored you, I've answered this several times, but I'll post more proof for you to yell "JUST FRIENDS!" at if you really want... but I have a feeling you don't really want that

Back on the debate:

You are my girlfriend.

In four words, I have negated your claim that 'To call someone your boyfriend or lover the other person has to make it clear that they return the same feelings, right?'

This times a bajillion. Koibito means lover, right? Generally if you hear someone used the word lover you'd ASSUME the other person responded the same way,but it doesn't mean that it can't be subjective. It shows she loved Cloud but she's using the word incorrectly. That does not change the meaning of the word. If I said the sky was pink, it doesn't change the meaning of the word pink. It just means I used it incorrectly.

As to Tifa's statement saying she is like a koibito/sweetheart -even though it is never stated to whom Tifa's a koibito to.- Only that she is like a sweetheart.

I'd like to point this out again:
On the "Sweetheart" thing, I asked about koibito on another forum and showed them the reunion pages, and I think this person summed it up nicely.

That's a sense of someone translating and using the correct term, incorrectly in English. Someone might describe her as their own 'sweetheart'. Like barbershop quartet style. It does not mean 'sweetheart' in the endearing sense, "Awww, aren't you a sweetheart." And that can easily be misconstrued the sense it's used in.

An appropriate translation would be "...a lover..", since it's talking about the roles she's assumed.

2. WAS. PAST TENSE.

It's past tense because... she's dead
And I'm assuming you mean that it's in the past tense so it doesn't matter now, right?

We need to get some good debating back. Christ. Why must the opposition be hit and run debaters? That shit really gets old, really fast.

Agreed and Ryu hit all her points nicely. Maybe when one person rebuttals the person's arguments, we don't need 5 other people jumping in repeating what he said

@ Drake: The fact that you are even taking into consideration the narrative and contemplating it, rethinking the circumstances and possibly opinion, it speaks volumes on your intelligence!

I like this Drake guy myself... we share the same birthday

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Also, Dissidia is a wealth of crack pairings for sure.

Actually, Clerra has some real foundation in the storyline. Cloud and Terra do interact, and while their scenes together aren't necessarily romantic, they're still sweet and emotional.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Actually, Clerra has some real foundation in the storyline. Cloud and Terra do interact, and while their scenes together aren't necessarily romantic, they're still sweet and emotional.

Their interactions are one of my favs, since those two are from like my two favorite FF's in the first place. Pretty good stuff

The problem is you act like anyone who thinks Cloud loved Aerith is delusional when people here have pointed out that it seemed the game was going in the direction of Cloud and Aerith being the true couple until she was killed. Yes a lot of the stuff WAS optional, but the fact that they put it in there makes me think they wanted at least some people to see the game going in that direction. Several people saw a relationship developing. FFS I saw it I mean... come on if I saw it...
No one's ignored you, I've answered this several times, but I'll post more proof for you to yell "JUST FRIENDS!" at if you really want... but I have a feeling you don't really want that

There's a big difference between potential and truly actualized romance. Yeah, FFVII hinted at potential. But it was never realized because

A.) She died.

B.) Cloud wasn't even truly himself. He's working off of Zack's memories and Jenova cells.

Clearly there was some sort of connection and maybe something could've happened but we're working on hypothetical here. Nojima even acknowledges it. There's no denying it.

Ryu and I are asking for full blown, actualized romantic proof and connection. We're well aware of the fact that there was a hint of possibility, and Cloud clearly cared about Aerith very much.

 

[Isabella]

The problem is you act like anyone who thinks Cloud loved Aerith is delusional when people here have pointed out that it seemed the game was going in the direction of Cloud and Aerith being the true couple until she was killed.

It's not delusional to believe on first playthrough that they're going to end up as The Couple. What Ryu and Mako are talking about are people who've played the whole game, probably several times, and have been through the plot twist and have seen everything laid out, have seen AC/C and read the ultimanias, and STILL don't see the full picture.

 

[Dashell]

Clearly there was some sort of connection and maybe something could've happened but we're working on hypothetical here. Nojima even acknowledges it. There's no denying it.

Ryu and I are asking for full blown, actualized romantic proof and connection. We're well aware of the fact that there was a hint of possibility, and Cloud clearly cared about Aerith very much.

Oh...

Well good then I thought you were trying to say there wasn't even a possibility and that was driving me nuts. Okay as long as you say there was a possibility that something COULD have happened, I'm happy.

It's not delusional to believe on first playthrough that they're going to end up as The Couple. What Ryu and Mako are talking about are people who've played the whole game, probably several times, and have been through the plot twist and have seen everything laid out, have seen AC/C and read the ultimanias, and STILL don't see the full picture.

So they're not just talking about the beginning of FFVII then, they're talking about the whole compilation... okay got it. Sorry, but I was annoyed with basically being told I was nuts because I thought that they had a relationship developing the first time I played

(not that we need that to let people know I'm nuts )

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Their interactions are one of my favs, since those two are from like my two favorite FF's in the first place. Pretty good stuff

Agreed. And when it comes to understanding Cloud's heart and emotions, Terra has a one-up on both Tifa and Aerith - she's gone through a lot of the same emotional trials. Who better to understand what Cloud has been through than someone who's been through the same sort of thing herself? :p

Clerra FTW!

(not that we need that to let people know I'm nuts )

Spoiler

We already know

 

[Reith123]

this is the love TRIANGLE not the love RECTANGLE...

 

[DrakeClawfang]

this is the love TRIANGLE not the love RECTANGLE...

It's says "LTD" - Love Trapezoid Debate.

ZING

 

[Isabella]

this is the love TRIANGLE not the love RECTANGLE...

And you're welcome to contribute to it. Have any talking points to bring forth?

 

[Dashell]

Aerith got another vote... one of these days the people voting for her are gonna come forward

 

[Makoeyes987]

I can totally see who voted and stuff. I won't be evil and list who voted but yeah. I wish the one's that voted would come out and actually explain their vote if they didn't...instead of just running off and stuff.

 

[Madame Mayor]

The problem is you act like anyone who thinks Cloud loved Aerith is delusional when people here have pointed out that it seemed the game was going in the direction of Cloud and Aerith being the true couple until she was killed.

There's a BIG difference between thinking the game is going in that direction, and seeing the actual romance begin to happen.

Aerith is set up to appear to be the love interest, but Tifa's there too. They push Aerith the tiniest bit more than Tifa without actually having Cloud show romantic interest in Aerith. I said it earlier, but the game sets you up thinking that eventually Aerith will break through his wall and melt his heart and romantic stuff like that. However, she dies, it never happens.

So setting them up as a potential couple (only to make her death mean more) does not mean Cloud shows romantic interest in her. That's what Ryu and everyone else want people to understand... or prove him wrong by pointing out a situation in the game that proves otherwise.

 

[Madame Mayor]

I can totally see who voted and stuff. I won't be evil and list who voted but yeah. I wish the one's that voted would come out and actually explain their vote if they didn't...instead of just running off and stuff.

I keep the pink shades around in case anyone ever wants to have some lulz.