So, what do you think the LTD conclusion is? (Round 2)

[Dashell]

But ... that just really puts Cloud down for one.. and for another, he did save her... TWICE!... How is not NOT her hero? So basically it's what I said... That statement saying that Cloud is Tifa's ideal love... means he's NOT her ideal love...

Boy Square sure likes to fuck with us Clotis eh?... Telling us something and then meaning the opposite, what is that?

 

[A]

No, no the arguement is that real Cloud isn't a knight in shining armor, but the man Tifa wants is Zack so Tifa doesn't want the real Cloud...9.9

This is EXACTLY what's so illogical about Clerith 'evidence.' How else do they debunk Cloud/Tifa besides the fact that they have to make Tifa look like an awful person? Tifa obviously knows the real Cloud. And Cloud WANTS to be Tifa's knight in shining armor, which is the point. Square Enix already comes to show us that he saves her; because he wants to. And Tifa gets saved by a man she loves. If Cloud didn't want to be Tifa's hero, she wouldn't have a reason to consider Cloud as her ideal man. She's not stupid.

And if Tifa's ideal vision of Cloud is really so shocking to Cleriths because Cloud apparently can't play the role of a knight in shining armor, how would they come to say about Aerith's bodyguard role with Cloud?

Tifa gets saved by Cloud, and at least once. It'd be contradictory to say that the roles don't match. Square Enix intended it to be that way.

 

[Isabella]

How is Cloud not a hero? He's rescued Tifa at least twice and has killed the almighty Sephiroth three times. He's helped to save the world twice now. Cloud may not believe he's a hero (until the end of AC/C), but Tifa can see the strength and bravery in him that he can't always see in himself. That doesn't mean she doesn't know him. It means the exact opposite ... that she sees deep down to the potential that lies there.

 

[A]

I think I almost just cried after reading that Isabella.

 

[Raquelborn]

Raq I love ya but just no. Two people who are "just friends" do not raise children together. They just don't.

Well actually they do. It's not common, I'll give you that but it certainly isn't unheard of. The fact that Cloud and Tifa didn't just adopt Denzel for the sake of it but because both felt they could atone for their sins through him would make it more believable in this case that romance may not necessarily be involved. Marlene was also living with Tifa before FFVII, so again Tifa is taking care of her because she was before, so there's nothing particularly suggestive about her living with her now.

Stop trying to invent a reason why they might not be a couple.

I'm considering all the corners so to speak. Afterall, that's part of what debate is about.

"Well we don't know for sure of they this or that".

I'm being precise and covering my back. If I can't say something for definite then I'll make sure anyone reading my post is aware that what I'm saying is not 100% fact, as far as I can tell.

Don't look at it from a LTD POV. Look at it from a logical POV.

I'm trying to have a realistic point of view.

Yes there are exceptions to the rule. But the rule is still the damn rule until shown otherwise. Sure your chair might collapse when you sit in it. But I bet you don't test every chair you sit in every time on the off chance that it will break do you? As a general rule your ass is fine.

Point taken. But I'm trying to explain why some people aren't completely convinced of their canonicity (is that even a word?) through them living together.

I would say the biggest one as was stated is DENZEL. There is no way to work around the fact that Cloud and Tifa are Denzel's new parents. I mean it's like wow.

Agreed. The parallels are hard to ignore.

I don't have the quote, but it says something about how in AC, he closes off his heart even from her. Which means it had been open to her up until that point.

I thought there was a quote explicity stating "Tifa is the only woman he has opened his heart to," or something along those lines.

But ... that just really puts Cloud down for one.. and for another, he did save her... TWICE!... How is not NOT her hero? So basically it's what I said... That statement saying that Cloud is Tifa's ideal love... means he's NOT her ideal love...

Boy Square sure likes to fuck with us Clotis eh?... Telling us something and then meaning the opposite, what is that?

Cloud is Tifa's ideal love. The problem is that he doesn't believe it. He's saved her from certain death twice now and has come to rescue her in all the other times she's been hurt even if he was too late to prevent it. So he was her ideal love back at 15/16 and is her ideal love still when she's older. I think you're trying to make it too complicated.

 

[Vendel]

Well actually they do. It's not common, I'll give you that but it certainly isn't unheard of.

I would like to hear some examples please. I would also like those examples to be obvious from an outside perspective.

The fact that Cloud and Tifa didn't just adopt Denzel for the sake of it but because both felt they could atone for their sins through him would make it more believable in this case that romance may not necessarily be involved. Marlene was also living with Tifa before FFVII, so again Tifa is taking care of her because she was before, so there's nothing particularly suggestive about her living with her now.

You see? This. This is inventing rather arbitrary and odd reasons.

I'm trying to have a realistic point of view.

The realistic POV is that any fictional or non-fictional pairing in C/T's situation would be considered a couple barring absolute proof that they are not.

Point taken. But I'm trying to explain why some people aren't completely convinced of their canonicity (is that even a word?) through them living together.

Those are people who look at it from the POV that Cloud is still madly in love with Aerith. From that POV a lot of strange things make sense I guess. Even though they can't prove the basis for that reasoning.

Agreed. The parallels are hard to ignore.

But we know some do.

 

[Dashell]

So here's my question, if Square released a statement saying that Cloud is NOT Tifa's ideal love... would that mean he was?

 

[A]

A similar situation like this already happened before; they denied the word koibito, claiming it didn't mean lover. Yet, when Aerith was associated with the word, it suddenly did. They're denying everything right now. Yet if Square WAS to release a statement like that, the only responses we would be getting is, "OMG wE wiN again!!!1!1"

 

[Dashell]

I'm aware of the koibito issue. And they do admit that it means lover nowadays. I think the argument now is that Cloud's name isn't used... But this one... I mean it says "He is her ideal love" not "Tifa sees Cloud as a knight in shining amour and an ideal love" or "Cloud is LIKE a hero to her" or anything like that. It's straight up Cloud IS Tifa's ideal love... I think a better thing to say would be that it says Cloud is Tifa's ideal love, but not the other way around or some such

Because the thought of Square releasing a statement like that and claiming it means the exact opposite is just... well I'll say it again:

 

[Madame Mayor]

I'm aware of the koibito issue. And they do admit that it means lover nowadays. I think the argument now is that Cloud's name isn't used

I heard two arguments about this that both don't make sense. One is that no name means it can be anybody, even with no evidence of it being anybody else. The other is that in Japan if no name is attributed to a statement about koibito, it has less meaning.

Which is just them making stuff up again for their ship. That's the scary part, that they so easily convince themselves of their own lies. I mean, if you make up a lie to make your ship look more canon, you'd think you'd still realize it's not true.

Anyways, I wish they would stop taking the word out of the sentence and tell us where Cloud's name should have gone. It's not saying, "Tifa is somebody's lover." It's saying, "In the movie, Tifa is shown to be a mother, a lover and a close ally in battle." It's talking about AC, and if you just watched AC you don't know who Johnny is and Rude's interest in Tifa isn't shown. Tifa only loves one man, so there is only one man who considers Tifa his lover.

Seriously though, the sentence is stating facts from the movie, Tifa has the role of lover in it, Aerith has the role of mother figure. [/facts] It's not some secret hidden statement that's meant to be vague. If she's a lover in the movie, then it must be with the guy she's living with, has children with, and loves. Period.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Which is just them making stuff up again for their ship. That's the scary part, that they so easily convince themselves of their own lies. I mean, if you make up a lie to make your ship look more canon, you'd think you'd still realize it's not true.

Anyways, I wish they would stop taking the word out of the sentence and tell us where Cloud's name should have gone. It's not saying, "Tifa is somebody's lover." It's saying, "In the movie, Tifa is shown to be a mother, a lover and a close ally in battle." It's talking about AC, and if you just watched AC you don't know who Johnny is and Rude's interest in Tifa isn't shown. Tifa only loves one man, so there is only one man who considers Tifa his lover.

Seriously though, the sentence is stating facts from the movie, Tifa has the role of lover in it, Aerith has the role of mother figure. [/facts] It's not some secret hidden statement that's meant to be vague. If she's a lover in the movie, then it must be with the guy she's living with, has children with, and loves. Period.

Now, if only they realize this and stop turning things around. They claim it's the other side who make stuff up. We didn't make up Japanese-speaking friends just to prove a point, that's for sure.

Clerith is becoming more and more of a turn off these days because of severe fandom wank, which is sad, because it's a beautiful pairing really. It doesn't need to be canon to be awesome.

I just remembered. There was this AC/C...er..."logic" that states that the less things are there, the more important they are, or something like that. Does that mean that in CC, Tifa is very important? I mean, she was barely there--and the only time she was actually there at length was with Cloud. So...like...what? Cloti is very important in CC?

My brain hurts from the illogic. And where have our Cleriths gone?





PS: This fandom are sick.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Why has this never been brought to my attention before? Who wrote this and why is it always ignored?... for that matter, what is the response to this? I mean wow... O_O

It is typically ignored because there is no direct japanese equivalent of that quote. As far as I can tell, it is editorialization or conglomeration of several quotes.

The response is sad, if you mean the opposing side. Apparently Cloud being ideal means that Tifa loves a fake Cloud, because he's not the hero she wanted him to be.

...

Except that logic makes no sense. The quotes does not say 'Tifa loves an ideal Cloud', it says 'Cloud is Tifa's ideal love.'
That mean Cloud, faults and all- and that mentally weak side she knows all too well and supports- is still the ideal.
Yet another example of that glorious reading comprehension failure I've come to expect.

And once again for the record, that quote does not actually exist, but Cloud is called Tifa's love interest in the UO.

 

[Super Mario]

Jesus Christ people, Tifa raises kids in AC, Cloud runs doing delivery services and gets to Tifa. Is it not difficult to piece now gents...They're a couple. D:

 

[I Am Not Me]

Except that logic makes no sense. The quotes does not say 'Tifa loves an ideal Cloud', it says 'Cloud is Tifa's ideal love.'
That mean Cloud, faults and all- and that mentally weak side she knows all too well and supports- is still the ideal.
Yet another example of that glorious reading comprehension failure I've come to expect.

That's a good contrast to Aerith's situation, who got attracted to Cloud because of his similarities to her ex-boyfriend. While she did admit to wanting to know the real Cloud, it still doesn't change the fact that she looked for something of her old boyfriend in him. She had an ideal and it wasn't Cloud.

In Tifa's case... well, she wanted Cloud to be her hero. She wanted her hero to be Cloud. And if she really loved an ideal Cloud, then she should have left Cloud to drool all over himself in Mideel. A mindless, wheelchaired Cloud doesn't sound very ideal to me.

Unfortunately for some people, her dedication to Cloud shows how much she actually cares for the Cloud, not her ideal, SOLDIER hero Cloud. So... the ploy to make Tifa look and sound bad to eradicate all that is Cloti FAILS.

Also, I don't see why SE would make such a distasteful statement.

'Tifa loves an ideal Cloud'

Butchering their own characters, are they?

 

[Reith123]

good point.

yeah...some clerith had this as a sig ^

 

[Splintered]

This is EXACTLY what's so illogical about Clerith 'evidence.' How else do they debunk Cloud/Tifa besides the fact that they have to make Tifa look like an awful person? Tifa obviously knows the real Cloud. And Cloud WANTS to be Tifa's knight in shining armor, which is the point. Square Enix already comes to show us that he saves her; because he wants to. And Tifa gets saved by a man she loves. If Cloud didn't want to be Tifa's hero, she wouldn't have a reason to consider Cloud as her ideal man. She's not stupid.

And if Tifa's ideal vision of Cloud is really so shocking to Cleriths because Cloud apparently can't play the role of a knight in shining armor, how would they come to say about Aerith's bodyguard role with Cloud?

Tifa gets saved by Cloud, and at least once. It'd be contradictory to say that the roles don't match. Square Enix intended it to be that way.

It's kind of stupid to say Tifa only wants the strong knight in shining armor Cloud when she was willing to dedicate an unknown quantity of time to wiping the drool off his face after they found him Mideel. And the fact that the reason why she was so persistent in keeping him in Avalanche, was not for him to save her- but because she knew something was wrong with him and she wanted to make sure everything was alright.

I would like to hear some examples please. I would also like those examples to be obvious from an outside perspective.

I've seen this a couple of times as well. Besides the obvious, family getting together to raise the kid, I've seen roomates of a couple help raise children. Especially if said couple is low on money and even more so if the parent is a single parent.

I know of one case where a girl Iknew had a bad case of post partrum depression while her husband was in Iraq, dropped her kid off a friends, went to Florida and never came back. After the husband returned, he and the family sort of co raised the baby.

There are a lot of fucked up familys out there. Never say never.

 

[A]

It's kind of stupid to say Tifa only wants the strong knight in shining armor Cloud when she was willing to dedicate an unknown quantity of time to wiping the drool off his face after they found him Mideel. And the fact that the reason why she was so persistent in keeping him in Avalanche, was not for him to save her- but because she knew something was wrong with him and she wanted to make sure everything was alright.

Agreed. How does it make sense that Tifa only wants Cloud to be her knight in shining armor, when in fact, she wants all of him, good or bad. She's acknowledged that she wanted Cloud to open up to her, which he did. There are times in the game where Cloud's his weakest, yet Tifa's love for him doesn't fade. Cloud is her knight in shining armor, whether or not he plays the role. To Tifa, Cloud doesn't have to prove himself. She already sees it in him.

 

[paoo]

^ Now you almost made me cry there.

 

[Shademp]

Agreed. How does it make sense that Tifa only wants Cloud to be her knight in shining armor, when in fact, she wants all of him, good or bad. She's acknowledged that she wanted Cloud to open up to her, which he did. There are times in the game where Cloud's his weakest, yet Tifa's love for him doesn't fade. Cloud is her knight in shining armor, whether or not he plays the role. To Tifa, Cloud doesn't have to prove himself. She already sees it in him.

Beautiful indeed. Like the doctor in Mideel says:
“She's always there
right by his side.
She must really love him.”

 

[Cthulhu]

WELL YEH, BUT HES A DOCTOR AND CANT KNOW SUCH THINGS BCUZ HE'S NOT A LOVE DOCTOR HE JUST THEORIZES & STFUU ADN CLOUD WAS AFK BECAUSE HE WAS HAVING LIEK SPIRIT SECKS WITH AERIS IN THE LIFESTREAM LIEK!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Someone's been sippin' the pink koolaid

 

[Shademp]

WELL YEH, BUT HES A DOCTOR AND CANT KNOW SUCH THINGS BCUZ HE'S NOT A LOVE DOCTOR HE JUST THEORIZES & STFUU ADN CLOUD WAS AFK BECAUSE HE WAS HAVING LIEK SPIRIT SECKS WITH AERIS IN THE LIFESTREAM LIEK!

Obvious joke is obvious.

While admittedly not having any power in arguments, the script I posted, it feels we don't get to read the word 'love' very often in FF, even less have it connotated with Tifa and Cloud.

 

[Vendel]

There are a lot of fucked up familys out there. Never say never.

Those are uh...fine examples. But they don't really apply.

Also let us restrict this to works of fiction. I could say I know a guy with goat feet. But unless someone wrote a book about it.....


EDIT: I love how the pinkers say Tifa only loves the "idealized" version of Cloud. All it is is some pathetic attempt to say Tifa would never be happy with Cloud and she really loves Zack or some such.

Oh noes. Both Cloud and Tifa's true loves are cheating on them in the after life. WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

 

[paoo]

EDIT: I love how the pinkers say Tifa only loves the "idealized" version of Cloud. All it is is some pathetic attempt to say Tifa would never be happy with Cloud and she really loves Zack or some such.

ZackxTifa is just an excuse so that those two won't be alone and Cloud and Aerith can have spirit!sex in heaven.

BUT I LUFF ZACKxTIFA

 

[Makoeyes987]

ZackxTifa is just an excuse so that those two won't be alone and Cloud and Aerith can have spirit!sex in heaven.

s]BUT I LUFF ZACKxTIFA[/s]

It's hilarious how they'll play "Pass the Tifa" among all the guys in FFVII she has absolutely no interest in. Johnny, Rude, Zack, Barret, and Vincent. Just fucking hilarious.

And your icon is seriously awesome. I love it. Truer words were never spoken.