The First Epic LTD of TLS forums

[DrakeClawfang]

So have you read the replies for those yet? Why did you leave the LT and then come back without rebuttals given to that post? If you're so adamant about your couple being canon, why not defend it as you should? Surely there's something there that we missed, in which you construed that Tifa's love is one-sided. I seriously want to see your side of the story.

If Clerith is so obviously canon, why was I so disappointed that I didn't see it? I seriously don't get this part. I'm not as old and as experienced as you are, but I can see what's obvious.

I read your post... and I didn't see the examples I wanted. I want something concrete to go with this. Explanations to Cloud's actions in FFVII towards Aerith is within the Ultimania, even that laughing scene with her. The way Aerith and Cloud easily hit it off together is not something special either. We see this with Zack, Tifa, and everyone else. Aerith is shown to be a character that easily draws people. Everyone loves her. Cloud opening up to Aerith isn't something new. Even Cid warms up to her.

CoT shows the dynamics of CloTi. If you want a fairytale romance where everything always works out, watch Disney, read Twilight and fanfiction, or play another FF. It has even been practically spelled out in CoT that Cloud is the one being initiative in the relationship. If that's not indicative of romantic interest, then I don't know what is. Also, CoT is sort of an introduction to AC/C. If you saw the ending for AC/C, then we see how what was left in CoT was resolved.

Cloti is no mystery. It's Clerith as canon that's the mystery.



Please don't leave and ignore my post.
Edit: You're still here! I am happy that my post won't be ignored.
Edit-edit: If I sound like I'm looking for a fight, I'm not. Don't kill me, I'm cute

I don't want to ignore your post, but you're kinda missing the point of why I left the thread back then (I realize I've come back, but still):

the reason I don't want to defend my beliefs is that I'm fairly sure any bit of evidence in favor of Clerith has already been debated and a theory put forth to disprove it. That's largely why I don't see the point, I'll just be arguing something others have already argued. I don't understand as a whole *why* Cleriths and Clotis have to debate for the validity of their respective pairings and why we can't just co-exist peacefully.

So, what do I do now then? Do I put forth evidence here to support Clerith, evidence everyone here has already heard before, listen to the arguments to discredit that evidence that you guys have probably already given, and try and disprove your disproof? What will this solve? Am I going to say something that'll make you slap your forehead and go "Of course, Clerith is canon, so obvious"? I doubt it. And given that I've seen all the Cloti evidence myself, I doubt a rehash and rephrasing of it will change my mind either.

So yes, now and then when I see my participation in this thread going nowhere, I leave. I speak (or post, as it were) when I feel I've something to say. And if I get into a situation where I'm just posting in circles, I don't see the point. What I do see is Cleriths and Clotis each believing their respective pairing is canon, both providing evidence to support their pairing and evidence to disprove the other. And the more I watch the two sides act so similar in regards to different pairings the more disillusioned I get. Seems that every day now I see something said here or at CxA forums that gets thing outta me:



So, what would you like me to do? Post evidence for Clerith? I'll save you the trouble - you've already heard my evidence, obviously don't believe it makes Clerith canon, and someone else (probably several "someone elses") has an explanation that explains how/why that evidence isn't valid. So....now what? Again, not seeing the point of debating something that you guys have heard before and that I know won't go anywhere. Hell, at thing point I know, or can at least imagine, the arguments against Clerith well enough that I could debate myself.

 

[paoo]

Well, I actually do want to have a discussion about this. I'm in the mood. I want to see what made Drake see Clerith and not even a hint of Cloti, while I saw mostly Cloti and almost none of Clerith. It's the difference between our views that interests me.

Though I did go a bit off there. It kind of annoyed me that someone is saying Tifa's love isn't reciprocated. Which is probably the most false thing I have ever heard. Cloud obviously loves her, regardless of it being romantic. Sorry about that, Drake.

Thank you for not ignoring my post.

Aerith is special to me too. She's my favorite Aerith.

Edit: I'm not denying that Aerith is interested in Cloud either. But my view on this is she was only really interested in Cloud right before her death. The interest that sparked at first was how similar Cloud was to Zack, and how different they were at the same time. In the end, she had chosen to see who Cloud really is... but sadly, she died.

Hehe, it's good you're in the mood. 8DD
And I totally agree with you..
Cloud and Aerith didn't get to know eachother so well, wich makes their relationship pretty.. fake. But it also makes it tragic because of that. That's why I love them X3

 

[I Am Not Me]

I don't want to ignore your post, but you're kinda missing the point of why I left the thread back then (I realize I've come back, but still):

THEN GTFO OF HERE

Kidding. But if you don't want to debate, then don't go here. Fandom preferences have no place in here. It's a debate. LTD = Love Triangle Debate

And it's not the belief that anything is canon. It's what's obviously canon. SE's just screwing with you, pretending to make everything mysterious, when all the effort in putting one couple as canon is just so obviously there. If Clerith is so canon, what's CC about then? Sure, it's mainly about Zack... but what else do we see in there? Yep, Cloti. And don't give me that "it's in the past". Everything is about the past in FFVII. Every mystery unraveled is connected to the past. If the past is irrelevant, then the mysteries solved is also irrelevant. Which makes FFVII stupid and random instead, which is not the case.

Not seeing Cloti is not being open-minded, IMO. If that's the case, what are Cloud's actions towards Tifa supposed to be then?





Also, I support Clack. STFU, Cleriths and Clotis. Wait for our essay, it's coming to kick your butts.

Edit: For some reason, my quote of your post got cut, but I'm too lazy to fix it. But you get what I'm talking about.l

Edit2:

Hehe, it's good you're in the mood. 8DD
And I totally agree with you..
Cloud and Aerith didn't get to know eachother so well, wich makes their relationship pretty.. fake. But it also makes it tragic because of that. That's why I love them X3

Yah, and it's way past my bedtime too

The point that killed Clerith the most for me was exactly that. Cloud and Aerith failed to get to know each other as well they should. If given the chance, it's Clerith all the way... but it was not meant to be, unfortunately. There's a big difference between how Aerith knows Cloud isn't himself, and how Tifa knows the real Cloud.

Another thing is how Cloud did not get to know much of Aerith or her feelings. It was even said in the Ultimania that he was oblivious to both women's affections. Typical dense hero.

Zerith is moar tragic IMO

 

[A]

So, what would you like me to do? Post evidence for Clerith? I'll save you the trouble - you've already heard my evidence, obviously don't believe it makes Clerith canon, and someone else (probably several "someone elses") has an explanation that explains how/why that evidence isn't valid. So....now what? Again, not seeing the point of debating something that you guys have heard before and that I know won't go anywhere. Hell, at thing point I know, or can at least imagine, the arguments against Clerith well enough that I could debate myself.

It's almost impossible to 'convert,' someone into a Cloti or Clerith. I've seen very few times this being done, or at least, one of them acknowledging that it's canon - the LT is just plain fun to debate about.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

My first experience with FF7's universe was AC

Which throws the viewer at a point in time where Cloud and Tifa's already established relationship is strained by Cloud's own personal fears and demons.

Advent Children relies on previous knowledge of the viewer and was created for fans. Yes, you may be able to follow the story as you are able to follow any other story, but to understand the characters, you need the vital pieces -- the game. That's why they give you Reminiscence among other things & Last Order (packaged with the movie).

Now, the movie itself is not exactly completely blank in regards to Cloud and Tifa's relationship. He lives and raises children with her (or at least prior to leaving & after returning) and the children look to them as parents. The woman, Tifa (if you had no prior knowledge of her) is the only one who seems to understand Cloud's need to settle his past (Sephiroth's fight and Tifa saying "Cloud is Cloud" while everyone else is WTFing and wanting to rush to help him at the end). She is also the only one comfortable and close enough to "lecture" him, similar to a girlfriend or wife. Her words are his driving force as he goes back to save the kids (he's reflecting on her words for most fo the time).

As far as Aeris is concerned, in Advent Children Cloud says and does nothing to hint at romance, especially if you have no prior knowledge of Aeris' interest in him. Why, he even calls her "Mother" while she is there with another man. Also, she leaves with another man (Cloud's friend). There are people who thought she was an older sister, especially considering what Marlene says, but whatever. The only clues you get from him are "I want to be forgiven". You have previously been told the girl has died. He says the same in regards to Zack, and adds that he now lives for him. Clearly, the two are friends he has lost -- nothing that says girlfriend in the way that living with and raising children with would herald if this were any other film or show.

So, really your conclusion seemed to have been an a priori one, after which you picked and chose "evidence" to fit that (and not well, given how you and numerous other Clerises have failed to answer basic questions).

Using only what you saw in Advent Children, can you please tell me why you thought Cloud loved Aeris "was drawn to her" or whatever? I'm only interested in your initial views of their relationship, not what you thought after also playign teh game or whatever. Just AC. Please & thank you.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

It's almost impossible to 'convert,' someone into a Cloti or Clerith. I've seen very few times this being done, or at least, one of them acknowledging that it's canon - the LT is just plain fun to debate about.

Exactly, and if we're not gonna change each other's minds, why argue?

So, really your conclusion seemed to have been an a priori one, after which you picked and chose "evidence" to fit that (and not well, given how you and numerous other Clerises have failed to answer basic questions).

Wrong again. I watched and judged based on what I saw, as I've said numerous times. And I don't appreciate the backhand insults.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Saying you have not adequately addressed issues and questions I have raised is insulting? You just totally ignored what I asked you one post prior. Are you serious buddy?

No, no. It's merely, as you say, an "observation"

EDIT:

we're not gonna change each other's minds, why argue?

Because one side is clearly wrong and making shit up.
It's not a case of both sides with equal footing in terms of evidence coming to a stand-still. If ti were, you'd have zero trouble coming up with a Cleris equivalent for...

1. Cloud always singling Tifa out & saying only her attitude matters
2. Cloud etching his promise to Tifa in his heart
3. Intimate physical contact like C/T share, like an embrace at least.
4. Cloud and Tifa's hearts calling out to each other & Aeris unable to reach him
5. Friends/Comrades commenting on their relatioship: where is it for Aeris?
6. Expressign a clear desire to start a life with Tifa and telling her they'd always be together. How about raising kids together? How about telling her that only by her side can he be happy? Where is it for Aeris?
7. Cloud and Tifa specifically and painstakingly made to complement one another. Where is anything of the sort said for Aeris?
8. How about Cloud and Tifa belonging together? Where is this said in regards to the flowergirl?
9. How about Tifa and Cloud revealing their mutual feelings to one another? Aeris. Where?

...I could go on but this edit is long enough as it is.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Ask your questions then. The point I'm trying to make is that you've probably already asked them to others and you know what my answers will be, but fine, ask.

 

[Eerie]

We're arguing about canon, not about preferences or making people change their minds. Shipping comes with personal preferences, it's natural.

That is why we back up our evidence with official stuff from SE. Because that's exactly what a LTD is about.

Still, the question remains? If you can see Cleris in AC, shouldn't it die the minute Cloud calls Aerith Mother? No matter what, if you feel someone's presence, you're not going to call her 'mother' when you're in love with her, right?
Unless you have the biggest Oedipus complex. But since we know that Cloud isn't interested in older women AND that he had a HUGEEEEEEEEE crush on a girl who's younger, we can guess he hasn't got one, right?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Saying you have not adequately addressed issues and questions I have raised is insulting? You just totally ignored what I asked you one post prior. Are you serious buddy?

Well when you use phrases like "making shit up", "they were pwned and they know it" and "Clerith bullshit", yeah, it's an insult. I don't insult Clotis, why do you feel the need to insult Cleriths?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

you've probably already asked them to others

and have received no answers. Wanna be the first?

I asked you to tell me how AC alone could leave one thinking Cloud and Aeris are romantically involved. Nothing groundbreaking, I was merely curious.

But if you feel like answering the above as well, go for it.

Why does me sayign they were owned bother you? They were. For example, back at ACF being one the places where the smackdown was kinda hard (and the reason many of them were glad it was closed down - no evidence of their FAIL).

And I'm sorry, you (although maybe not you personally) are the group that invented WacDonalds and koi_____bito and bito = slang for hito. And carp theories. And lens flare ribbons. And changing hair ties for Aeris. And cottages in the flower fields. And Cloud and Tifa's different orphanages and Cloud going out to see Aeris despite being explicitly told (several times)HE IS GOING HOME. I get lost in the lolz sometimes

Although they may not at times be directed at you specifically, I'm not making any of this up. If the truth hurts you, that's not my problem.

 

[Sunstrider]

Preference is one thing. I like Cloud/Aerith just as much as Cloud/Tifa, but one side has the evidence behind them. There's just too much supporting Cloud/Tifa to deny it at this point, whereas everything supporting Cloud/Aerith is a lot more vague and usually colored by interpretation. That's all well and good, but sometimes it feels like people are just making stuff up because they want to be right. Just enjoy your pairing and stop trying to make it canon.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

and have received no answers. Wanna be the first?

I asked you to tell me how AC alone could leave one thinking Cloud and Aeris are romantically involved. Nothing groundbreaking, I was merely curious.

But if you feel like answering the above as well, go for it.

Why does me sayign they were owned bother you? They were. For example, back at ACF being one the places where the smackdown was kinda hard (and the reason many of them were glad it was closed down - no evidence of their FAIL).

And I'm sorry, you (although maybe not you personally) are the group that invented WacDonalds and koi_____bito and bito = slang for hito. And carp theories. And lens flare ribbons. And changing hair ties for Aeris. And cottages in the flower fields. And Cloud and Tifa's different orphanages and Cloud going out to see Aeris despite being explicitly told (several times)HE IS GOING HOME. I get lost in the lolz sometimes

Although they may not at times be directed at you specifically, I'm not making any of this up. If the truth hurts you, that's not my problem.

I was busy editing my previous post to answer your questions, so here -

1 - Singling her out, yes, he singles out various party members in various situations in FF7. As for saying only her attitude matters, when does he say that?
2 - Yes he does do that. I don't see how him remembering a promise he made is romantic. I remember a time in fourth grade where some kids who were picking on me decided to promise to be nicer to me. Does this mean we became BFFs?
3 - I must have missed then, where Cloud and Tifa embrace. I've asked this before - no kisses, no hugs? Don't couples usually do that sorta thing?
4 - In Maiden, I recall that was. Isn't there a big to-do about that not being canon? I used to think it was canon, but after being told about how it contradicts other materials I'm not so sure.
5 - The other party members commenting on their relationship means they love each other? How so? I recall that's Cid and Barret, don't remember anything from Yuffie or Vincent. Cait Sith comments on Cloud and Aerith, and don't give me his predictions are unreliable - Before Crisis, the Turks uses his powers to predict the way through a Mako reactor's maze-like core, and it works.
6- "only by her side can he be happy?" Again, where does he say that? "Does" being with her make him happy in CoT/AC? Yes, true. But unable to be happy otherwise? News to me.
7 - Well that's personal opinion, I never saw Tifa and Cloud to compliment each other. In fact they seem rather the same - physically strong, emotionally insecure, shy, apprehensive, black clothing...
8 - Again, where is it said they belong together? I know there's the Reunion Files quote, but if that's what you mean you're misquoting it and taking it out of context, something you've lectured me on doing before.
9 - And Aeris and Cloud are stated to set each other's destinies in motion upon meeting. I never saw anything about Cloud's destiny being influenced by Tifa.

Now I had more to say here, but after seeing your new reply I'll keep my mouth shut and my further replies to myself. Let's deal with the new comment

I asked you to tell me how AC alone could leave one thinking Cloud and Aeris are romantically involved. Nothing groundbreaking, I was merely curious.

I don't know how AC could leave someone doing that. It didn't do that to me, as I've said god-knows-how-many-times. If I get a chance I'll ask around and see if someone else knows.

Why does me sayign they were owned bother you? They were. For example, back at ACF being one the places where the smackdown was kinda hard (and the reason many of them were glad it was closed down - no evidence of their FAIL).

And I'm sorry, you (although maybe not you personally) are the group that invented WacDonalds and koi_____bito and bito = slang for hito. And carp theories. And lens flare ribbons. And changing hair ties for Aeris. And cottages in the flower fields. And Cloud and Tifa's different orphanages and Cloud going out to see Aeris despite being explicitly told (several times)HE IS GOING HOME. I get lost in the lolz sometimes

Although they may not at times be directed at you specifically, I'm not making any of this up. If the truth hurts you, that's not my problem.

I dunno, does the truth hurt? You tell me. Let me play "Clerith Asshole" for a minute. *slips on the Asshole hat* Alrighty! Here's my impression of a Cloti!

---------------------

If Cloud doesn't want Tifa he's gotta be gay. But hey, he does want her, remember they fucked under the Highwind, while the other party members watched, exhibitionists are sexy yeah! Of course they had sex, that was the implication in the original scene, ya know, the one they cut. Come on guys, cut material = CANON! And they slept in the same bed in CoT and Tifa gave Cloud that smexy look at the end of AC. Oh yeah, Cloud got laid that night!

Plus, hey, Zacloud! Aeris never knew the real Cloud, she can't love him. Although, that only goes one way, because we can't tell when Cloud was being Zacloud and Real Cloud, so maybe his scenes were Tifa were the real Cloud and are legit. WE DON'T KNOW! But the answers are there, Nomura said so...he never said what those answers *are*, but it's probably the answers we see and not the ones the rabid pinkers see.

Besides, where is it ever said Aeris loves Cloud? Maiden? Bah, not even canon, it contradicts other stuff all the time, so Aeris saying she loves him there isn't...what? Case of The what? She says what? OH, we already knew that! We already knew Aeris loves Cloud, she says so in Maiden! Ya know, Maiden, that other novella, that one that wasn't canon five minutes ago and now suddenly is....or maybe it isn't, who cares!? And besides, just because Aeris says Cloud is her koibito, doesnt' mean it's two-way!

Remember Reunion Files, where Tifa is called Cloud's koibito! What? Of course that sentence is referring to Cloud! His name is in the third sentence after that one, it's in dark ink though, hard to see, you kinda have to squint to see it. I can see it, why can't you? Must be those pink blinders again. You know, the pink blinders that mean everything you see is wrong and everything I see is right.

And ya know, uh, Crisis Core! That clearly retcons Zerith to be canon! I mean sure, we already knew Aerith liked Zack, she says so in FF7, but ya know...CC makes that love canon, and eternal and all. Aeris says she was over Zack, bah she's lying, she's hot for him! And they're dead together even, which is why Zack isn't in Case of the Lifestream...but, uh, Sephiroth is! Of course, Aeriseph, during development they were lovers, CANON! Aerith is dead and in love with Zack....or Sephy...or both! Of course! That night after AC Tifa and Cloud had sex while the other guys had a threesome in the lifestream, tru luv! Zaeriseph is canon, so is Cloti!

-----------------------

Okay, that actually wasn't as fun as I thought it may be. Do you know why I don't make Cloti-bashing comments like that? Because it makes me look like an immature jackass. I know that, hence why I don't post stuff like that. Rather than just bash anyone who disagrees with me, I try to discuss my stance with them civily, though as I said I know such discussions won't do much.

I could easily make fun of other people and insult them and their beliefs, but I don't. I'd like to think you possess the capacity to do the same. As other users have said, I try to be reasonable and polite here. I don't want or need to insult Clotis just to try and prove my points. Why do you? Why can't you just calmly discuss it instead of interjecting Clerith-bashing comments?

I don't care if you guys are referring to me specifically, you still refer to the group I'm a member of and so Clerith insults are still directed, even if unintentionally, at me. It's like saying to a priest "Christians are fundamentalist idiots...I don't mean you specifically Father, just Christians in general, you're fine don't worry". "Uh, yes, thanks Tom, I appreciate you clarifying that". See how that doesn't work?

Alright, I'm fairly sure I just pissed off a lot of people with this post. And as a nice, reasonable person, I have to say.....GOOD.

*takes off the asshole hat*

Thanks for coming, I think today's session has been very productive.

 

[Sunstrider]

Seriously, though, I think you need to chill out. No one is insulting you as a person or every Cloud/Aerith fan ever. They're pointing out what a lot of people coming into this debate have claimed as Clerith proofz. I mean, come on. You have to admit the carp stuff is pretty ridiculous. And the spirit sex in the flower field? These are the kind of people that others are calling out here on their bullshit. Not every, single pereson who likes Cloud/Aerith.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Seriously, though, I think you need to chill out. No one is insulting you as a person or every Cloud/Aerith fan ever. They're pointing out what a lot of people coming into this debate have claimed as Clerith proofz. I mean, come on. You have to admit the carp stuff is pretty ridiculous. And the spirit sex in the flower field? These are the kind of people that others are calling out here on their bullshit. Not every, single pereson who likes Cloud/Aerith.

Awesome, I love Colbert! That's from Strangers with Candy, right?

I'm normally chilled out, but when I see comments bashing Cleriths when it's not needed or provoked. I get you guys don't mean me specifically, but you're still making fun of my beliefs. I see comments on one page talking about "clerith bullshit" posted by "rapid pinkers" who like to "make shit up", and then on the next page I see posters wondering why more Cleriths don't post here. It's highly irritating,

 

[Isabella]

Drake, I'm curious too ... you say AC was your first exposure to FF7, and it led you to believe Cloud and Aeris were in love. Can you explain what specifically in AC led you to that conclusion?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Drake, I'm curious too ... you say AC was your first exposure to FF7, and it led you to believe Cloud and Aeris were in love. Can you explain what specifically in AC led you to that conclusion?

Let's go over this once more. Advent. Children. When. I. First. Saw. It. Did. Not. Strike. Me. As. Clerith.

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?p=59411#post59411

I watched AC long before I played the game itself, at the time I didn't know any better and didn't think anything of Cloud living in the church. One thing I did odd was Aerith still played a larger role in the film than the other protagonists, because hey, she was dead. But she was still around, and she and Tifa both tried to help Cloud with his troubles in their own way

I don't know how AC could leave someone doing that. It didn't do that to me, as I've said god-knows-how-many-times. If I get a chance I'll ask around and see if someone else knows.

 

[Isabella]

Bit of a rude response, considering this post makes it sound as if it was always obviously Cleris to you.

As I've said before, I went into AC, FF7 and KH with an open mind, and I saw Clerith. It had nothing to do with her being dead - I just saw him being drawn to Aerith and not really having any serious romantic interest in Tifa. It was obvious she loved him, but it never occurred to me he loved her back. My first experience with FF7's universe was AC, and I didn't even notice any evidence for an LT one way or the other.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I was busy editing my previous post to answer your questions, so here -

2 - Yes he does do that. I don't see how him remembering a promise he made is romantic. I remember a time in fourth grade where some kids who were picking on me decided to promise to be nicer to me. Does this mean we became BFFs?

You don't see how keeping a promise to come rescue a girl he's had a crush on and was seeking to impress is supposed to be an indicator of romance, especially when the two keep making nods to it ten years later?

3 - I must have missed then, where Cloud and Tifa embrace. I've asked this before - no kisses, no hugs? Don't couples usually do that sorta thing?

In FF, a hug is generally all you get. Didn't even get that for Wa/Lu, and Yang's wife expresses her love through frying pans. Even in FF8 'the love story' we never got a kiss.

4 - In Maiden, I recall that was. Isn't there a big to-do about that not being canon? I used to think it was canon, but after being told about how it contradicts other materials I'm not so sure.

The not able to contact bit is from Maiden, but not the Cloud and Tifa calling out to each other. We tend to include it in our arguments for completeness' sake.

5 - The other party members commenting on their relationship means they love each other? How so? I recall that's Cid and Barret, don't remember anything from Yuffie or Vincent. Cait Sith comments on Cloud and Aerith, and don't give me his predictions are unreliable - Before Crisis, the Turks uses his powers to predict the way through a Mako reactor's maze-like core, and it works.

You do know his controller has access to schematics, right? Cait Sith's described in his profile as an unreliable fortune teller.

7 - Well that's personal opinion, I never saw Tifa and Cloud to compliment each other. In fact they seem rather the same - physically strong, emotionally insecure, shy, apprehensive, black clothing...

That's not opinion at all. That's creator statement. They complement each other.

8 - Again, where is it said they belong together? I know there's the Reunion Files quote, but if that's what you mean you're misquoting it and taking it out of context, something you've lectured me on doing before.

No, she isn't. Cloud would be living with Tifa. Everyone would be home where they belong. Cloud belongs with Tifa. QED.

9 - And Aeris and Cloud are stated to set each other's destinies in motion upon meeting. I never saw anything about Cloud's destiny being influenced by Tifa.

She goes to her doom, he gets dragged back into his conflict with Sephiroth.

If Cloud doesn't want Tifa he's gotta be gay. But hey, he does want her, remember they fucked under the Highwind, while the other party members watched, exhibitionists are sexy yeah!

No one with half a brain says the party actually watched.

Of course they had sex, that was the implication in the original scene, ya know, the one they cut. Come on guys, cut material = CANON!

That's the implication of the EXTANT scene. And while the original draft was rejected for being to explicit, it was not 'cut'. It was toned down. The nanaki clones were cut from the game. The chocobo stable sequence was toned down to the current form.

And they slept in the same bed in CoT

Well, that, or the same room. If I found someone staring at me as I slept, if I didn't consider them to have free reign in my room, I'd be really fucking creeped out.

and Tifa gave Cloud that smexy look at the end of AC. Oh yeah, Cloud got laid that night!

Sounds to me, Drake, you have problems with sex. That or you're ignoring the logic behind quite a lot of arguments.

Plus, hey, Zacloud! Aeris never knew the real Cloud, she can't love him. Although, that only goes one way, because we can't tell when Cloud was being Zacloud and Real Cloud, so maybe his scenes were Tifa were the real Cloud and are legit. WE DON'T KNOW!

Actually, the ZaCloud argument only applies to Aerith because Aerith only ever KNEW Cloud when he was messed up in the head. Tifa knew him both before and after, and was able to suss something was up with Zacloud almost immediately.

But the answers are there, Nomura said so...he never said what those answers *are*, but it's probably the answers we see and not the ones the rabid pinkers see.

Considering quite a lot of their 'answers' have been shown to be blatantly impossible, yes, the probability is not that good for their answers.

Besides, where is it ever said Aeris loves Cloud? Maiden? Bah, not even canon, it contradicts other stuff all the time, so Aeris saying she loves him there isn't...what?

Actually, Maiden itself counteracts her saying she loved Cloud more than her first love by having so much of what is Cloud in her mind being Zacky bits.

Case of The what? She says what? OH, we already knew that! We already knew Aeris loves Cloud, she says so in Maiden! Ya know, Maiden, that other novella, that one that wasn't canon five minutes ago and now suddenly is....or maybe it isn't, who cares!?

Oh, she can still love him even if she doesn't know him.

And besides, just because Aeris says Cloud is her koibito, doesnt' mean it's two-way!

It doesn't, actually. It means she thinks it's be two way.

Remember Reunion Files, where Tifa is called Cloud's koibito! What? Of course that sentence is referring to Cloud! His name is in the third sentence after that one, it's in dark ink though, hard to see, you kinda have to squint to see it. I can see it, why can't you?

You need to actually pick arguments people make, Drake. We all admit that the person she is a lover TO isn't explicitly stated, but it's only goddamn logical to infer based upon context who it is.

Must be those pink blinders again. You know, the pink blinders that mean everything you see is wrong and everything I see is right.

You know, that would be more scathing if you had actually accurately represented arguments instead of strawmanning them all to hell. As is, your attempt to scathe us with the pink blinders comment actually backfires.

And ya know, uh, Crisis Core! That clearly retcons Zerith to be canon! I mean sure, we already knew Aerith liked Zack, she says so in FF7, but ya know...CC makes that love canon, and eternal and all. Aeris says she was over Zack, bah she's lying, she's hot for him! And they're dead together even, which is why Zack isn't in Case of the Lifestream...but, uh, Sephiroth is! Of course, Aeriseph, during development they were lovers, CANON! Aerith is dead and in love with Zack....or Sephy...or both! Of course! That night after AC Tifa and Cloud had sex while the other guys had a threesome in the lifestream, tru luv! Zaeriseph is canon, so is Cloti!

Just... stop. For your own good.

Okay, that actually wasn't as fun as I thought it may be. Do you know why I don't make Cloti-bashing comments like that? Because it makes me look like an immature jackass.

And because you can't accurately render our arguments, which is actually necessary for proper argument bashing.

I know that, hence why I don't post stuff like that. Rather than just bash anyone who disagrees with me, I try to discuss my stance with them civily, though as I said I know such discussions won't do much.

I could easily make fun of other people and insult them and their beliefs, but I don't. I'd like to think you possess the capacity to do the same. As other users have said, I try to be reasonable and polite here. I don't want or need to insult Clotis just to try and prove my points. Why do you? Why can't you just calmly discuss it instead of interjecting Clerith-bashing comments?

She can rationally discuss the argument while expressing her dislike of the pairing. Such isn't intellectually dishonest, as long as her comments are not a substitute for the actual argument.

I don't care if you guys are referring to me specifically, you still refer to the group I'm a member of and so Clerith insults are still directed, even if unintentionally, at me.

No, they're directed at the group of people who espouse those arguments. Hence why specific argument examples and the label 'rabid pinker' is used instead of Clerith. There IS a difference.

It's like saying to a priest "Christians are fundamentalist idiots...I don't mean you specifically Father, just Christians in general, you're fine don't worry". "Uh, yes, thanks Tom, I appreciate you clarifying that". See how that doesn't work?

No, it's like saying to a northern baptist that southern baptists are fundamentalist morons, believing X,Y,Q. By design, the statement includes only a specific sect of the whole.

Alright, I'm fairly sure I just pissed off a lot of people with this post. And as a nice, reasonable person, I have to say.....GOOD.

*takes off the asshole hat*

Thanks for coming, I think today's session has been very productive.

Pissed off, no. Irritated a bit, yes. OWD and the other's examples are all examples of ridiculous arguments that are either still held to be so, or are being unsuccessfully swept under the rug.

Also- Beliefs? This whole mess isn't about belief. It's about the facts of the matter, and being able to coherently, logically, consistently explain those facts into a proper hypothesis/ theory of the narrative.

 

[Channy]

I see comments on one page talking about "clerith bullshit" posted by "rapid pinkers" who like to "make shit up", and then on the next page I see posters wondering why more Cleriths don't post here. It's highly irritating,

This. I agree heavily with this. Way too many times you guys make fun of Ceriths as a WHOLE nevermind Devotion sites, Clerith forums, you make fun of the shippers as a whole, not as individuals. And you honestly wonder why more don't post?

You don't see how keeping a promise to come rescue a girl he's had a crush on and was seeking to impress is supposed to be an indicator of romance, especially when the two keep making nods to it ten years later?

Ten years later? I didn't really see a reference to it in DoC or AC/C. What I DID see in ACC was that newly added scene

Spoiler: spoiler worthy? playing it safe

where Tifa fell from Bahamut's blast, and is about to get crushed by a building. But as Cloud zooms towards her, what does he see? Seph coming after Aerith. It appeared to me more of a "I'm not letting this happen again" moment rather than "I'm keeping my promise" otherwise they would have flashbacked to Nibelheim when he was tending to her side, or even the Well when they made their promise.

It's not Clorith but it's not Cloti either, it sort of cancels eachother out.

In FF, a hug is generally all you get. Didn't even get that for Wa/Lu, and Yang's wife expresses her love through frying pans. Even in FF8 'the love story' we never got a kiss.

Wa/Lu had a baby. And FF8 we got hugs. Lots of hugs. Well, two to my recollection anyway.

You do know his controller has access to schematics, right? Cait Sith's described in his profile as an unreliable fortune teller.

I was actually watching VII gameplay last night and saw that scene and wondered, what happens in Tifa is in the party? Or do you always have to have Cait Sith and Aerith? Because Cait Sith does say some incriminating things saying that Aerith and Cloud are perfect for eachother.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

In FF, a hug is generally all you get. Didn't even get that for Wa/Lu, and Yang's wife expresses her love through frying pans. Even in FF8 'the love story' we never got a kiss.

Wakka and Lulu had a kid, Rosa and Cecil have a kid, Yang and his wife were married, Rinoa and Squall kiss in the ending....

She goes to her doom, he gets dragged back into his conflict with Sephiroth.

You misunderstand, Ultimania profiles for both says "Aerith/Cloud set the other's destiny in motion". Where is the quote saying Tifa influences Cloud's destiny?

No one with half a brain says the party actually watched.

Tifa herself suspects it.

Sounds to me, Drake, you have problems with sex. That or you're ignoring the logic behind quite a lot of arguments.

No, I'm just wondering how it is people keep saying Cloud and Tifa have had sex like, two or three times during the Compilation. Somehow Tifa's smile at the end of AC is flirtacious, which means she and Cloud had sex that night.

You need to actually pick arguments people make, Drake. We all admit that the person she is a lover TO isn't explicitly stated, but it's only goddamn logical to infer based upon context who it is.

What context? It's a two-sentence paragraph, there's no context to be taken out of.

You know, that would be more scathing if you had actually accurately represented arguments instead of strawmanning them all to hell. As is, your attempt to scathe us with the pink blinders comment actually backfires.

How so? That's a term you guys actually use here, quite often actually, "pink blinders" and similar terms to the same effect that apparently distort a Clerith's views.

She can rationally discuss the argument while expressing her dislike of the pairing. Such isn't intellectually dishonest, as long as her comments are not a substitute for the actual argument.

No, they're directed at the group of people who espouse those arguments. Hence why specific argument examples and the label 'rabid pinker' is used instead of Clerith. There IS a difference.

There is? There's a dictonary for these things? Can you show me where it is so I don't make this error again? Expressing distaste for a pairing is one thing, up and down this thread people don't bash the Clerith pairing, they make fun of the Clerith shippers. And if I come in the reaction is "oh, we don't mean you Drake".

Pissed off, no. Irritated a bit, yes. OWD and the other's examples are all examples of ridiculous arguments that are either still held to be so, or are being unsuccessfully swept under the rug.

Also- Beliefs? This whole mess isn't about belief. It's about the facts of the matter, and being able to coherently, logically, consistently explain those facts into a proper hypothesis/ theory of the narrative.

Actually, this is about beliefs, because at no time has SE said "Cloud loves Tifa", and so much of Cloti evidence, and yes much Clerith evidence too, is based on taking something they have said and interpreting it in their own personal view. And to go with beliefs, here's some facts - are there things that can be interpreted as Cloti? Yes. Are there things that can be interpreted as Clerith? Yes. Has SE come right out and stated which side is right? No.

 

[Rinoa]

This thread isn't about "beliefs" and "what I think I saw".

@Drake
You're far too emotionally invested in the Cloud and Aerith pairing to properly answer anyone's questions. Everyone has patiently and rationally responded to your posts, in return all you've done is call it an attack.

Further still, you think yourself reasonable and polite. Not convincing when you've yet to admit that you've already grossly misunderstood the topic time and time again.

There is nothing polite nor reasonable about putting immature statements (i.e. Cloud is gay, f-word) in other people's mouths because you can't counter them. It isn't helping your personal cause of being some sort of CloudXAerith debating martyr.

From what I'm getting, you don't like what Cleriths say (there's a whole domain on the word, for reference).

Perhaps you should rethink what 'group' you think you are part of.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

This thread isn't about "beliefs" and "what I think I saw".

@Drake
You're far too emotionally invested in the Cloud and Aerith pairing to properly answer anyone's questions. Everyone has patiently and rationally responded to your posts, in return all you've done is call it an attack.

Further still, you think yourself reasonable and polite. Not convincing when you've yet to admit that you've already grossly misunderstood the topic time and time again.

There is nothing polite nor reasonable about putting immature statements (i.e. Cloud is gay, f-word) in other people's mouths because you can't counter them. It isn't helping your personal cause of being some sort of CloudXAerith debating martyr.

From what I'm getting, you don't like what Cleriths say (there's a whole domain on the word, for reference).

Perhaps you should rethink what 'group' you think you are part of.

I'm a Clerith shipper, that's my group. I ship Clerith. And as I said before yes, I'm getting a bit disillusioned with some of the CxA membership. Group me as you like then.

I'll kindly direct you to several posts where I calmly discuss this, and I know for a fact that several people here have thanked me for joining so there can be a civil discussion. But when I keep seeing comments that bash Clerith shippers and insult them, what do you want me to do? Agree with them? I suppose I could ignore them yes, but why should I have to? Why do Clerith shippers need to be insulted at all here?

And if I misunderstood the topic, then tell me what the topic is.

 

[Eerie]

Oh, I was reminded of that thread when one of my friends babbled about Occam's Razor. In short, "all things considered, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

So, if we look at FF7, concerning the LTD, what do we have? I've already said this a few pages ago, but oh well ~___~
-Cloud being in love/having a huge crush on Tifa when they were kids
-Cloud wanting to impress Tifa and wanting to join SOLDIER because of that
-Cloud making the promise to Tifa that he'd be her knight
-Cloud remembering the promise in other games whenever he was failing
-Cloud being ashamed that he didn't make it into SOLDIER - and thus hiding from Tifa - at this point, we can still say safely that he was still in love with her
-Then, 4 years passed with him being a veggie
-ZCloud taking on
-Disc One of FF7 - where the player actually controls his emotional side
-Cloud being a veggie again
-Cloud being found and helped by Tifa - their hearts calling each other, etc
-Cloud spending the LAST NIGHT - the absolutely most important one - with Tifa
-Cloud telling Tifa that they'd be together and that it was different from before
-Cloud and Tifa living together, raising Marlene, then Denzel together - Denzel who considers them as his parents
-Cloud and Tifa apparently at least sharing a room in CoT
-Cloud drifting away

Spoiler

to look out for a remedy to Geostigma but contracting it in the meanwhile and moping around for a few days before AC/C

-AC/C
-Cloud returning home, with Tifa, where he belongs
-Cloud still being there one year after

Notice that I didn't bother with ZCloud, as the player influenced greatly the game, although hints for his feelings for Tifa were definitely there - you couldn't be as mean to Tifa than what you could be for Aerith, you could say a lot of romantic things to/about Tifa that you couldn't to Aerith, so this is merely how the pairing(s) works with the player.
If we go by the Occam's Razor theory, then, it merely means that yes, Cloud is in love with Tifa and lives - romantically - with her. There is no stretching, Aerith is still a precious friend, just like Zack is. Nothing is not important, yet yes, they all have different roles. And, as stated by the guidbook, the 'lover' one is Tifa. And if people want to argue that it's not Cloud, then I shall ask with who she shares most of her screentime and why the two voice actors had to dub together when it wasn't the case with all the others voice actors?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

he singles out various party members in various situations in FF7.

How and where? Telling me he does it for other people means nothing. Does he single them out specifically? "I'm sorry guys, but ESPECIALLY YOU TIFA" kinda singling out? Does he tell them that only their attitude matters ("No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts" - Cloud)?

I don't see how him remembering a promise he made is romantic. I remember a time in fourth grade where some kids who were picking on me decided to promise to be nicer to me. Does this mean we became BFFs?

What Ryu said. Cloud makes a promise to a girl he has a crush on. The same girl he desperately wanted to take notice of his feelings for her, hence calling her out to a famous date spot. The promise is then forever etched in his heart and keeps coming up frequently not only in the game, but the rest of the Compilation. Complete with shooting stars and whatnot.

I must have missed then, where Cloud and Tifa embrace

In the Lifestream -- as one right off the top of my head. They also hold hands as they swim (?) up. There's prolly more, like butt/thigh touching and sleeping together, but I'm just giving you one. LOL

In Maiden, I recall that was.

And prolly several Ultimanias, as well as the original game script. Nice try.

uses his powers to predict the way through a Mako reactor's maze-like core, and it works.

You do remember he's controlled by Reeve, right? Remember what Reeve does? Urban Development.

But unable to be happy otherwise? News to me.

Funny because the only time I've seen "happy" and "Cloud" in the same sentence has been in reference to Tifa and the kids. I wonder why. Must be because he's so happy without them.
Also, in CoT Cloud says that he's always failed everything in the past, but believes he will succeed this time (and not FAIL at life) because guess who's there? Here's a hint: not Aeris.

Well that's personal opinion

Nope. Direct quote from the staff. Reunion Files, I believe, but someone could correct me if I'm wrong. Might have been one of the far-too-fucking-many Ultimanias.

but if that's what you mean you're misquoting it and taking it out of context

How am I taking it out of context? Everyone would be where they belong & Cloud would be with Tifa. God, what is it saying? It can't be what it seems, must be something else. Something other than Cloud belonging with Tifa.
Why would they say Cloud belongs with the woman who's romantically interested in him after them both confessing mutual feelings for each other? You tell me then.

Come on guys, cut material = CANON

You clearly do not know the meaning of "tone down".

But the answers are there, Nomura said so...he never said what those answers *are*, but it's probably the answers we see and not the ones the rabid pinkers see.

That quotes is used by us to show that Cloud's love life is not exactly left up for grabs -- that is, it's not inconclusive. See, it's one thing to mock us for ridiculous arguments, and quite another to invent arguments you wish we used as to make your "countering" easier.
Get them right.
Ryu's covered the rest pretty well. I'll stop now, but before I go:

You did not do what I asked you to. What I asked was for you to show me the Cleris equivalent of all of the above. You instead started puttign things in people's mouths and pulling the victim card again. Where is all the above for Cloud/Aeris? What was that about equal evidence?