The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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- Tim, Ryu
Eh, might as well finally respond to this shit.
That's not what happened either. No, Cloud and Tifa don't have the picket fence, and they took in the two children out of circumstance rather than intent,
but they DID form a family together. Barret did not form it with them, nor is he included in it nor does he include himself in it.
And before you give me motherfucking shit about him still being Marlene's dad, we've been over this, he still is, and he's still part of HER family, but
he's NOT part of Cloud and Tifa's seventh heaven family.
Or Barret would have set up a house with Marlene. You are attempting to set up a pretty solid false dichotomy. Barret's walkabout was partly motivated by
a desire to give Cloud and Tifa their own space in addition to attempting to sort out his own issues of how to be productive in the new society everyone
found themselves in.
Stop making it seem like I'm making it seem like that. This is something I openly loathe about you, BB, you can't ever seem to let an argument go without
some transparent strawman.
Yes there is. Because Nomura pre-AC can know nothing, while Nomura Post AC can know that the movie tells us about their relationship. Nojima can tell us
Cloud and Tifa belong together. They can tell us things like Cloud and Tifa formed a family, have a future together, are the mother and father of a
relationship, that she is someone's beloved. They can tell us things and we can be certain because we're not fucking idiots, just like we could be certain
of Squall's parentage in FF8 long before it was explicitly confirmed.
If you mean post-mortem, then sure. Otherwise, she died liking Cloud despite not knowing the real cloud.
Your logic does not follow. That they have issues- issues, BTW, which are mostly to do with Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt- does not preclude them having a romantic relationship, nor does them not working through their issues preclude such.
...But Aerith has her own issues. So maybe not. This is another issue you have. Lots of selective quoting.
And to other people, it does not. Opinions and Assholes, etc.
To get forgiveness for his sins of letting her and Zack die, and for his sin of being the one to live, and enjoying his life while feeling unworthy to be living it.
Argumentum ad Image Macro isn't exactly compelling, because contrary to humor, Marche isn't a sociopath who deliberately wants to fuck over his best friends, he's just really shit at expressing some seriously heady concepts to other children.
And there are a metric shitton of jokes about Tifa giving Cloud the bedroom eyes at the end of ACC. By your logic, that means everyone recognizes that they're gonna have some fantastic makeup sex after the movie ends.
Firstly, as mentioned above, your premise is entirely flawed. Them having issues does not preclude a romantic relationship, nor would them not working through said issues. Secondly, yes, there are, including the fact that they talk about said problem during AC and Cloud is confirmed to return to live with her where he belongs at the end of the movie, the fact that they have a future together, etc. Thirdly, most of their issues resolve from Cloud's long standing guilt and idea that he does not deserve happiness, and that he should be punished for his past failings.
So, yeah, try not attacking a strawman, BB. It does wonders.
That's not what happened either. No, Cloud and Tifa don't have the picket fence, and they took in the two children out of circumstance rather than intent,
but they DID form a family together. Barret did not form it with them, nor is he included in it nor does he include himself in it.
And before you give me motherfucking shit about him still being Marlene's dad, we've been over this, he still is, and he's still part of HER family, but
he's NOT part of Cloud and Tifa's seventh heaven family.
Or Barret would have set up a house with Marlene. You are attempting to set up a pretty solid false dichotomy. Barret's walkabout was partly motivated by
a desire to give Cloud and Tifa their own space in addition to attempting to sort out his own issues of how to be productive in the new society everyone
found themselves in.
Stop making it seem as though Cloud and Tifa got married, found the perfect little house in suburbia, and then adopted children. As much as you
wish that happened... it didn't
Stop making it seem like I'm making it seem like that. This is something I openly loathe about you, BB, you can't ever seem to let an argument go without
some transparent strawman.
Yes there is. Because Nomura pre-AC can know nothing, while Nomura Post AC can know that the movie tells us about their relationship. Nojima can tell us
Cloud and Tifa belong together. They can tell us things like Cloud and Tifa formed a family, have a future together, are the mother and father of a
relationship, that she is someone's beloved. They can tell us things and we can be certain because we're not fucking idiots, just like we could be certain
of Squall's parentage in FF8 long before it was explicitly confirmed.
If you mean post-mortem, then sure. Otherwise, she died liking Cloud despite not knowing the real cloud.
Your logic does not follow. That they have issues- issues, BTW, which are mostly to do with Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt- does not preclude them having a romantic relationship, nor does them not working through their issues preclude such.
...But Aerith has her own issues. So maybe not. This is another issue you have. Lots of selective quoting.
And to other people, it does not. Opinions and Assholes, etc.
To get forgiveness for his sins of letting her and Zack die, and for his sin of being the one to live, and enjoying his life while feeling unworthy to be living it.
It's such common knowledge that Cloud had feelings for Aerith, people even make jokes about it.
Argumentum ad Image Macro isn't exactly compelling, because contrary to humor, Marche isn't a sociopath who deliberately wants to fuck over his best friends, he's just really shit at expressing some seriously heady concepts to other children.
And there are a metric shitton of jokes about Tifa giving Cloud the bedroom eyes at the end of ACC. By your logic, that means everyone recognizes that they're gonna have some fantastic makeup sex after the movie ends.
Firstly, as mentioned above, your premise is entirely flawed. Them having issues does not preclude a romantic relationship, nor would them not working through said issues. Secondly, yes, there are, including the fact that they talk about said problem during AC and Cloud is confirmed to return to live with her where he belongs at the end of the movie, the fact that they have a future together, etc. Thirdly, most of their issues resolve from Cloud's long standing guilt and idea that he does not deserve happiness, and that he should be punished for his past failings.
So, yeah, try not attacking a strawman, BB. It does wonders.
- AKA
- The Engineer
We need a macro of this. Now. Preferably so we can put it up where applicable.
- AKA
- TresDias
Here's a relevant macro:
- AKA
- The Engineer
Heh...
Danseru-kun
Pro Adventurer
Here's a relevant macro:
For now, I don't think so. I have to be honest here: The reason I don't applaud Blankbeat for his recent attitude change and rejoice in the temporary truce is that because the debate will keep going nasty as long as he insists his bad reading of Cloti.
We know his position is inconsistent from both pairings are not canon, to Cloud never cared about anyone until Aerith came, to his current stance is that both pairings are canon. But he still tries to prove that Cloti is a negative relationship overall and that Cloud actively yearning for Aerith doesn't make Cloti work like Clerith did. He wants us to accept the Clerith perspective that fanservice, merchandise, hand reach scenes and *insert proof here* makes his interpretation that Clerith> Cloti valid. In a nutshell, he uses the statement that both pairings are canon but his arguments scream "Cloud loves Aerith more than he will ever love Tifa and that Clerith is the most beautiful, eternal pairing and Cloti isn't good, has a lot of problems and unhappiness." :|
That's the reason I don't want to debate with BB anymore. Besides the inconsistencies, moving goalposts, and double standards there isn't simply a line to cross to determine where a pairing is "better" than the other in shipping. It's like arguing if Kory or Babs is better for Dick Grayson (sorry, recent comic interest.)
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- TresDias
What you say here is fair enough, but I'm happy with the progress that has been made and -- if "would Cloud have gotten along better with Tifa or Aerith?" has to be a thing all on its own -- will keep reminding everyone involved that it's completely impossible to support in either direction because Aerith isn't alive and we will never know.
Everyone should just be able to agree that all three of them have personal problems and there's going to be issues no matter what their situation is -- Tifa with Cloud, Aerith with Cloud or both of them with Cloud. If Cloud wasn't dealing with guilt over Aerith's death, it would still be his difficulty connecting with people; or Tifa's similar difficulties and tendency to think a situation to death; or Aerith's responsibilities and headstrong nature.
None of these people are a gold medal. They're all good and/or hot people, but they're bronze or silver at best and need polishing.
Everyone should just be able to agree that all three of them have personal problems and there's going to be issues no matter what their situation is -- Tifa with Cloud, Aerith with Cloud or both of them with Cloud. If Cloud wasn't dealing with guilt over Aerith's death, it would still be his difficulty connecting with people; or Tifa's similar difficulties and tendency to think a situation to death; or Aerith's responsibilities and headstrong nature.
None of these people are a gold medal. They're all good and/or hot people, but they're bronze or silver at best and need polishing.
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- AKA
- Minato
Kory is better.
Danseru-kun
Pro Adventurer
My gawd I prefer him with Babs.
Shadowfox
You look like you need a monkey
Or both of them without Cloud.
Aerti > *
I'd still see Cloud feeling majorly guilty over his inability to help Zack in his final moments. And Tifa would still be dealing with her guilt over the deaths caused by her actions in AVALANCH.
- AKA
- TresDias
Yeah, so there's all of that too. And if Cloud's feeling guilty over Zack, it's not going to be as easy "oh well" for him to just start boning Zack's girlfriend.
There will be issues no matter who or what. That's just who these people are and the fucked-up situations they have been through. The fact that there are/would be issues is not necessarily a sign of any of them not being right for each other, though. That they do/would try to work through them says "maybe they are."
There will be issues no matter who or what. That's just who these people are and the fucked-up situations they have been through. The fact that there are/would be issues is not necessarily a sign of any of them not being right for each other, though. That they do/would try to work through them says "maybe they are."
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
...Babs AND Kory? Why not, eh?
Exactly. Each has their own issues that would complicate a relationship, but wouldn't prevent it from happening just by existing. For lack of a better term coming to mind, damaged people can and do form romantic relationships with other people, and often times, these relationships, even with other broken people, HELP those people with their issues. It's not easy going, but not a goddamn one of us here is claiming C/T is sunshine happiness and rainbow farts. Hell, I have my happily ever after FF pairing. It's Cecil/ Rosa.
Unlucky
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
Now, commence new LTD topic!!1
But seriously, what everything Danseru said. I still don't get what BB is insisting on about this whole thing.
Danseru-kun
Pro Adventurer
I remember I once wrote an essay on why Delita actually loved Ovelia in FFT. They're one of the most horribly messed up and ambiguous relationships I've seen in fiction and I can't think of a way it could have worked. That being said, no matter how intense the feelings are, a relationship "working" is caused by a lot of factors that has nothing to do with romance.
The way some Cleriths interpret the situation, the problems are mostly caused by Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith, Cloud and Tifa's lack of compatibility and Tifa not understanding Cloud better and that she wasn't what he needed. Clotis generally present the situation as Cloud and Tifa having personal demons and struggling to be establish a family despite the lack of role models in their childhoods, traumatic memories and a terminal disease affecting one of the members. Clearly, there's a stark contrast on how the problems were explained, but for sure, the latter model which Clotis usually use didn't need to prove that Cloud loves, or is more compatible with one woman than the other.
The way some Cleriths interpret the situation, the problems are mostly caused by Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith, Cloud and Tifa's lack of compatibility and Tifa not understanding Cloud better and that she wasn't what he needed. Clotis generally present the situation as Cloud and Tifa having personal demons and struggling to be establish a family despite the lack of role models in their childhoods, traumatic memories and a terminal disease affecting one of the members. Clearly, there's a stark contrast on how the problems were explained, but for sure, the latter model which Clotis usually use didn't need to prove that Cloud loves, or is more compatible with one woman than the other.
Selphie Tilmitt
Pro Adventurer
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- Maidenofwar
Om nom nom nom om nom nom noms. Shiny medals.
Glenn, still most awesmest person here <3
Glenn, still most awesmest person here <3
- AKA
- hitoshura
i don't know if it's a fandom thing, which i don't usually participate in, but i see why "if x were true then..." what-if scenarios matter. would they have formed a family if barret had stayed? what does it matter, that's not what actually happened. things might have gone better with aerith? shame she dies so you don't know. (and if nojima is writing it you can bet it wouldn't)
you can make cloti work without denigrating clerith. loving someone else doesn't mean you love others less, unless you think love is a zero-sum game with a finite amount of affection to go around. so how come clerith assertions have to come along with a lot of trashing cloti?
you can make cloti work without denigrating clerith. loving someone else doesn't mean you love others less, unless you think love is a zero-sum game with a finite amount of affection to go around. so how come clerith assertions have to come along with a lot of trashing cloti?
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- So many names
Ok, see, forget the LTD. THOSE are fightin' words right there. You, me, twelve Pokemon, open level entry. We will unmake you for this
Skan
Pro Adventurer
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- dief
You're talking about a subset of a subset of fandom there, and I don't think generalizing like that will actually help the discussion any -- unless you're specifically trying to fan the flames.
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
So, Bats, Supes, and Wonder are fair game, then?
- AKA
- Chloe Frazer
Ok, see, forget the LTD. THOSE are fightin' words right there. You, me, twelve Pokemon, open level entry. We will unmake you for this
Come at me bro.
Kermitu Kleric Katie
KULT OF KERMITU
That's not a love triangle. If we wanted to discuss those three and their love lives, we'd have a love dodechedron on our hands. Batman alone has had at least 4 major loves interests I can think of(Catwoman, Vicki Vale, Silver ST. Cloud, and Talia), and that's just major ones.
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Both have dated Wondy at some point in various continuities, but I was more taking a generic stab at the big three rather than them in a specific LTD scenario.
Okay, Batman and Julie Newmar Catwoman, Eartha Kitt Catwoman, Michelle Pfeifer Catwoman, or Anne Hathaway Catwoman?
OneWingedDemon
NOT AMUSED
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