The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Sprites]

And ACC happened because Reeve ate too much cheese before bedtime, he actually cried when he realised Cait Sith no longer rode around on a big stuffed moogle

 

[Ryushikaze]

Eh, might as well finally respond to this shit.

You act as though Cloud and Tifa decided to form a family together, had two children, and moved to a house with a white picket

fence. If that happened, it *WOULD* be an indication of a romantic relationship. Unfortunately, that's not what happened. Cloud, Tifa, *AND* Barret

decided to form a family together and re-establish Seventh Heaven. Barret helped form this family and helped with the re-building of Seventh Heaven. After

Barret helped form this family and re-build Seventh Heaven, he went away.

That's not what happened either. No, Cloud and Tifa don't have the picket fence, and they took in the two children out of circumstance rather than intent,

but they DID form a family together. Barret did not form it with them, nor is he included in it nor does he include himself in it.

And before you give me motherfucking shit about him still being Marlene's dad, we've been over this, he still is, and he's still part of HER family, but

he's NOT part of Cloud and Tifa's seventh heaven family.

"After visiting various locations with Tifa and Barret, Tifa opened the “Seventh Heaven” bar.

Before setting off on a journey, Barret left Marlene in Cloud and Tifa’s care, and the three of them began living together."

~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania Cloud Strife Profile

The three of them [Cloud, Tifa, Marlene] began living as a family because Barret left. If Barren't hadn't left, all four of them would have been living

together as a family.

Or Barret would have set up a house with Marlene. You are attempting to set up a pretty solid false dichotomy. Barret's walkabout was partly motivated by

a desire to give Cloud and Tifa their own space in addition to attempting to sort out his own issues of how to be productive in the new society everyone

found themselves in.

Stop making it seem as though Cloud and Tifa got married, found the perfect little house in suburbia, and then adopted children. As much as you

wish that happened... it didn't

Stop making it seem like I'm making it seem like that. This is something I openly loathe about you, BB, you can't ever seem to let an argument go without

some transparent strawman.

If Nomura has "no clue" if they are in a relationship, and if SE decided to provide Cloud a place to sleep in his room, there is no way you can be

certain they are in a romantic relationship.

Yes there is. Because Nomura pre-AC can know nothing, while Nomura Post AC can know that the movie tells us about their relationship. Nojima can tell us

Cloud and Tifa belong together. They can tell us things like Cloud and Tifa formed a family, have a future together, are the mother and father of a

relationship, that she is someone's beloved. They can tell us things and we can be certain because we're not fucking idiots, just like we could be certain

of Squall's parentage in FF8 long before it was explicitly confirmed.

OK. Then it's relevant? Bottom line: SE tells us Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack and that although she initially liked Cloud because of Zack, she

eventually grew to like Cloud for Cloud.

If you mean post-mortem, then sure. Otherwise, she died liking Cloud despite not knowing the real cloud.

What I'm saying is that Nojima speaks of things not going well between Cloud and Tifa and questions if even Marlene and Denzel will be able to help them sort through their issues. There's no proof they ever worked through their issues, therefore leaving it uncertain if they are in a romantic relationship.

Your logic does not follow. That they have issues- issues, BTW, which are mostly to do with Cloud's PTSD and survivor's guilt- does not preclude them having a romantic relationship, nor does them not working through their issues preclude such.

And yes, I know Nojima doesn't guarantee things would have gone better with Aerith. But as I've stated previously, this is why I personally think things

would have gone better with Aerith:

1. Nojima says that perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith in contrast to things not going well with Tifa. That hints to me that things would

have gone better with Aerith given the juxtaposition.

...But Aerith has her own issues. So maybe not. This is another issue you have. Lots of selective quoting.

2. Just look at Cloud and Aerith's dynamic together. To me, Cloud and Aerith's dynamic suggests things would have gone better between them.

And to other people, it does not. Opinions and Assholes, etc.

My point is that Cloud visited Aerith's Church before having geostigma. Why did he do so?

To get forgiveness for his sins of letting her and Zack die, and for his sin of being the one to live, and enjoying his life while feeling unworthy to be living it.

It's such common knowledge that Cloud had feelings for Aerith, people even make jokes about it.

Argumentum ad Image Macro isn't exactly compelling, because contrary to humor, Marche isn't a sociopath who deliberately wants to fuck over his best friends, he's just really shit at expressing some seriously heady concepts to other children.

And there are a metric shitton of jokes about Tifa giving Cloud the bedroom eyes at the end of ACC. By your logic, that means everyone recognizes that they're gonna have some fantastic makeup sex after the movie ends.

"First off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this

might be the same." ~Nojima

So, obviously the issues between Cloud and Tifa are not solely a result of Geostigma or Sephiroth. We can also see that when observing CoT and FFVII.

(And yes, I know he uses the word "might" -- but come on, let's just be honest here.)

Bottom line: what is the proof Cloud and Tifa sorted through their problems? To me, it appears as though they haven't and aren't in a committed

relationship. Any evidence that they've sorted through their problems...?

Firstly, as mentioned above, your premise is entirely flawed. Them having issues does not preclude a romantic relationship, nor would them not working through said issues. Secondly, yes, there are, including the fact that they talk about said problem during AC and Cloud is confirmed to return to live with her where he belongs at the end of the movie, the fact that they have a future together, etc. Thirdly, most of their issues resolve from Cloud's long standing guilt and idea that he does not deserve happiness, and that he should be punished for his past failings.

So, yeah, try not attacking a strawman, BB. It does wonders.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Argumentum ad Image Macro

We need a macro of this. Now. Preferably so we can put it up where applicable.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Here's a relevant macro:

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Heh...

 

[Danseru-kun]

Here's a relevant macro:

For now, I don't think so. I have to be honest here: The reason I don't applaud Blankbeat for his recent attitude change and rejoice in the temporary truce is that because the debate will keep going nasty as long as he insists his bad reading of Cloti.

We know his position is inconsistent from both pairings are not canon, to Cloud never cared about anyone until Aerith came, to his current stance is that both pairings are canon. But he still tries to prove that Cloti is a negative relationship overall and that Cloud actively yearning for Aerith doesn't make Cloti work like Clerith did. He wants us to accept the Clerith perspective that fanservice, merchandise, hand reach scenes and *insert proof here* makes his interpretation that Clerith> Cloti valid. In a nutshell, he uses the statement that both pairings are canon but his arguments scream "Cloud loves Aerith more than he will ever love Tifa and that Clerith is the most beautiful, eternal pairing and Cloti isn't good, has a lot of problems and unhappiness." :|

That's the reason I don't want to debate with BB anymore. Besides the inconsistencies, moving goalposts, and double standards there isn't simply a line to cross to determine where a pairing is "better" than the other in shipping. It's like arguing if Kory or Babs is better for Dick Grayson (sorry, recent comic interest.)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What you say here is fair enough, but I'm happy with the progress that has been made and -- if "would Cloud have gotten along better with Tifa or Aerith?" has to be a thing all on its own -- will keep reminding everyone involved that it's completely impossible to support in either direction because Aerith isn't alive and we will never know.

Everyone should just be able to agree that all three of them have personal problems and there's going to be issues no matter what their situation is -- Tifa with Cloud, Aerith with Cloud or both of them with Cloud. If Cloud wasn't dealing with guilt over Aerith's death, it would still be his difficulty connecting with people; or Tifa's similar difficulties and tendency to think a situation to death; or Aerith's responsibilities and headstrong nature.

None of these people are a gold medal. They're all good and/or hot people, but they're bronze or silver at best and need polishing.

 

[Roger]

It's like arguing if Kory or Babs is better for Dick Grayson (sorry, recent comic interest.)

Kory is better.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Kory is better.

My gawd I prefer him with Babs.

 

[Shadowfox]

Everyone should just be able to agree that all three of them have personal problems and there's going to be issues no matter what their situation is -- Tifa with Cloud, Aerith with Cloud or both of them with Cloud.

Or both of them without Cloud.

Spoiler

Aerti > *

If Cloud wasn't dealing with guilt over Aerith's death, it would still be his difficulty connecting with people; or Tifa's similar difficulties and tendency to think a situation to death; or Aerith's responsibilities and headstrong nature.

I'd still see Cloud feeling majorly guilty over his inability to help Zack in his final moments. And Tifa would still be dealing with her guilt over the deaths caused by her actions in AVALANCH.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, so there's all of that too. And if Cloud's feeling guilty over Zack, it's not going to be as easy "oh well" for him to just start boning Zack's girlfriend.

There will be issues no matter who or what. That's just who these people are and the fucked-up situations they have been through. The fact that there are/would be issues is not necessarily a sign of any of them not being right for each other, though. That they do/would try to work through them says "maybe they are."

 

[Ryushikaze]

For now, I don't think so. I have to be honest here: The reason I don't applaud Blankbeat for his recent attitude change and rejoice in the temporary truce is that because the debate will keep going nasty as long as he insists his bad reading of Cloti.

We know his position is inconsistent from both pairings are not canon, to Cloud never cared about anyone until Aerith came, to his current stance is that both pairings are canon. But he still tries to prove that Cloti is a negative relationship overall and that Cloud actively yearning for Aerith doesn't make Cloti work like Clerith did. He wants us to accept the Clerith perspective that fanservice, merchandise, hand reach scenes and *insert proof here* makes his interpretation that Clerith> Cloti valid. In a nutshell, he uses the statement that both pairings are canon but his arguments scream "Cloud loves Aerith more than he will ever love Tifa and that Clerith is the most beautiful, eternal pairing and Cloti isn't good, has a lot of problems and unhappiness." :|

That's the reason I don't want to debate with BB anymore. Besides the inconsistencies, moving goalposts, and double standards there isn't simply a line to cross to determine where a pairing is "better" than the other in shipping. It's like arguing if Kory or Babs is better for Dick Grayson (sorry, recent comic interest.)

...Babs AND Kory? Why not, eh?

Yeah, so there's all of that too. And if Cloud's feeling guilty over Zack, it's not going to be as easy "oh well" for him to just start boning Zack's girlfriend.

There will be issues no matter who or what. That's just who these people are and the fucked-up situations they have been through. The fact that there are/would be issues is not necessarily a sign of any of them not being right for each other, though. That they do/would try to work through them says "maybe they are."

Exactly. Each has their own issues that would complicate a relationship, but wouldn't prevent it from happening just by existing. For lack of a better term coming to mind, damaged people can and do form romantic relationships with other people, and often times, these relationships, even with other broken people, HELP those people with their issues. It's not easy going, but not a goddamn one of us here is claiming C/T is sunshine happiness and rainbow farts. Hell, I have my happily ever after FF pairing. It's Cecil/ Rosa.

 

[Unlucky]

Kory is better.

My gawd I prefer him with Babs.

Now, commence new LTD topic!!1

But seriously, what everything Danseru said. I still don't get what BB is insisting on about this whole thing.

 

[Danseru-kun]

I remember I once wrote an essay on why Delita actually loved Ovelia in FFT. They're one of the most horribly messed up and ambiguous relationships I've seen in fiction and I can't think of a way it could have worked. That being said, no matter how intense the feelings are, a relationship "working" is caused by a lot of factors that has nothing to do with romance.

The way some Cleriths interpret the situation, the problems are mostly caused by Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith, Cloud and Tifa's lack of compatibility and Tifa not understanding Cloud better and that she wasn't what he needed. Clotis generally present the situation as Cloud and Tifa having personal demons and struggling to be establish a family despite the lack of role models in their childhoods, traumatic memories and a terminal disease affecting one of the members. Clearly, there's a stark contrast on how the problems were explained, but for sure, the latter model which Clotis usually use didn't need to prove that Cloud loves, or is more compatible with one woman than the other.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Om nom nom nom om nom nom noms. Shiny medals.

Glenn, still most awesmest person here <3

 

[Strangelove]

i don't know if it's a fandom thing, which i don't usually participate in, but i see why "if x were true then..." what-if scenarios matter. would they have formed a family if barret had stayed? what does it matter, that's not what actually happened. things might have gone better with aerith? shame she dies so you don't know. (and if nojima is writing it you can bet it wouldn't)

you can make cloti work without denigrating clerith. loving someone else doesn't mean you love others less, unless you think love is a zero-sum game with a finite amount of affection to go around. so how come clerith assertions have to come along with a lot of trashing cloti?

 

[Carlie]

Guys do not bring comic book characters into this especially ones that are awesome or else I will ban you all, get drunk with power, steal the site from Yop and then pass a law that would forbid you all from using the cookie monster.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Guys do not bring comic book characters into this especially ones that are awesome or else I will ban you all, get drunk with power, steal the site from Yop and then pass a law that would forbid you all from using the cookie monster.

Ok, see, forget the LTD. THOSE are fightin' words right there. You, me, twelve Pokemon, open level entry. We will unmake you for this

 

[Skan]

i don't know if it's a fandom thing, which i don't usually participate in, but i see why "if x were true then..." what-if scenarios matter. would they have formed a family if barret had stayed? what does it matter, that's not what actually happened. things might have gone better with aerith? shame she dies so you don't know. (and if nojima is writing it you can bet it wouldn't)

you can make cloti work without denigrating clerith. loving someone else doesn't mean you love others less, unless you think love is a zero-sum game with a finite amount of affection to go around. so how come clerith assertions have to come along with a lot of trashing cloti?

You're talking about a subset of a subset of fandom there, and I don't think generalizing like that will actually help the discussion any -- unless you're specifically trying to fan the flames.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Guys do not bring comic book characters into this especially ones that are awesome or else I will ban you all, get drunk with power, steal the site from Yop and then pass a law that would forbid you all from using the cookie monster.

So, Bats, Supes, and Wonder are fair game, then?

 

[Carlie]

Ok, see, forget the LTD. THOSE are fightin' words right there. You, me, twelve Pokemon, open level entry. We will unmake you for this

Come at me bro.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

So, Bats, Supes, and Wonder are fair game, then?

That's not a love triangle. If we wanted to discuss those three and their love lives, we'd have a love dodechedron on our hands. Batman alone has had at least 4 major loves interests I can think of(Catwoman, Vicki Vale, Silver ST. Cloud, and Talia), and that's just major ones.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's not a love triangle. If we wanted to discuss those three and their love lives, we'd have a love dodechedron on our hands. Batman alone has had at least 4 major loves interests I can think of(Catwoman, Vicki Vale, Silver ST. Cloud, and Talia), and that's just major ones.

Both have dated Wondy at some point in various continuities, but I was more taking a generic stab at the big three rather than them in a specific LTD scenario.

Okay, Batman and Julie Newmar Catwoman, Eartha Kitt Catwoman, Michelle Pfeifer Catwoman, or Anne Hathaway Catwoman?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

merchandise, gaiz, merchandise.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfQAXIyCYAAqJtp.jpg:large

/over & out

 

[Dashell]

also handholding:

http://squareportal.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/sminis.jpg?w=672&h=372&crop=1