The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Dashell]

BTW:

Do you have any evidence that the smile was fake?

Lady Lifestream wrote: "It seemed like he just wanted to make her believe that everything was alright. An expression of a gentle personality - or did she misunderstand that?"

Err...

This may have been from the German version as LL is German... and has the German version

 

[Dashell]

Well she translated it

And doesn't it pretty much say the same thing?

 

[Tina Armstrong]

I have my own views about this scene; if it's not stated by any of the creators, then I guess I can't say it's true.

Wait, which scene are we talking about here?

I think she can, but it's unlikely since Zacks is never mentioned in the context of love with her.

"Aerith gently embraced Zack, who came back sad. The atmosphere makes them feel like a couple…." -Aerith's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

"At that chosen day, she accidentally met Zack, SOLDIER 1st Class, and they were attracted to each other…" -Aerith's profile

"He was Aerith’s first love and close friends with Cloud and Sephiroth." -Zack's Profile

"Zack seems to have a number of female friends, but especially informing his home means there’s no doubt that the partner is a special one." -Zack's profile

"Aerith, the girl whom he met at the slum’s church. The existence of the girl, who had earnestly come to love Zack with sincerity, eventually became irreplaceable to him." -Zack's profile

This can't be used as a fact in the present world of FFVII though, since it's about the past.

I thought you all read the novellas and already knew what was written in them.
Tifa says that Cloud, having started his delivery service, is barely at home. So I think it's clear where I got it from, right?

If you were just talking about CoT, then I agree with you.

So what does Aerith mean? Obviously that she wants to get to know the real Cloud without his fantasy persona.

That was kind of... my point. But the thing is that she doesn't get the time to do that.

Tifa helps him because she loves him.

Yes.

And in which sense does she help?
She helps him regain his original memories and persona. Since she is the only one who knew that he was present in Nibelheim.

Yes. Tifa knew Cloud's past. She also understands him all too well. She's the best supporter for him.
Edit: And like Ryu said, Cloud only let Tifa into his heart.

Wait.
We just clarified that she loves Cloud at the time after FFVII. Let's keep that in mind.
So. We know that she once fell in love with Zacks. How do we know that this ended?
Because she says so.
She says that she won't write him any more letters. She says to Cloud that her relationship with Zacks wasn't a serious one and that he was "good for a while".

This could be taken as denial too. Ugh, let's just give up on this one.
It feels like we're going in circles.

And like I said before, you don't know that unless it was stated.

Are you kidding me?
Why did Cloud put the sword on Zack's grave?
Why is he even standing there in AC/C, looking at the sword while he says “I said I’d live out both our lives. Easy to make that promise,” and gets flashbacks of Zack?
Why does he put the sword in Aerith's church afterwards?
Because Aerith is dead. Zack is dead. They were both a part of Cloud's guilt. They knew each other. They were lovers.

What ELSE could it be a symbol for through Cloud's eyes?
So.. you're saying that the flowers in the church could be a symbol of anything too, if it's not stated otherwhise?

I doubt that he's got his own home. If he were there, he would have either taken Marlene with him or he had returned to be with her in the Seventh Heaven.
Maybe he means that Barret is currently present there because of his work?
I will look that up.

Ok.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Right. I'm bored with Anastar apparently deciding not to respond to any of my points and CR not yet finished with her response to me (If I've missed you, apologies), so I'm butting in on several other people's arguments. Here goes.

To what time do you refer to?
At the beginning, he spends his days at the bar.
When he opens his delivery service, Tifa states that he is "spending less time at home" because he is travelling all around the globe.
And after the conversation with Tifa, he leaves completely. So how long is he gone?

You missed the point in there where he makes sure to be home early every day so he can spend more time with the kids.

I'm not sure if it's stated somewhere, but we know it's between a few weeks and a few months. At least Tifa has given up to reach him on the phone, making it seem more like months than days.

Tifa is still calling his phone to pass messages along. His time living away from Tifa and the kids is described as brief.

However, this doesn't matter since I referred to the time when he opened his delivery service.
He is only present in the morning and the evening. So he could only see the kids in this time. Not the best time to raise your children, isn't it?

Dude. You just shit on every parent who ever had a nine to five job.

Said where?

In the OG, on her date, she will express the desire to get to know the real Cloud.
If we include Maiden, she will express joy at finally getting to know the real Cloud.

If someone loved a wrong idea of Cloud, then it was Tifa in her childhood where she wanted to satisfy her desire to be a "little princess" by being saved by a hero.

How's that a wrong idea of Cloud? Cloud wanted to be the hero just as much as she wanted one. And he is a Hero.

So, again, were is it said that Aerith only loves her idea of Cloud? It seems that you said that without any reference to the game.
"Why do you think that?"
"Yeah, well, because I think so though it was hinted nowhere."

Aerith initially falls for Cloud because of her feelings for Zack. Just prior to her death, she expresses a desire to get to meet the real Cloud. This would be pointless if she already knew him.

I have to disagree with you.
"Back in these days, Tifa did hardly notice Cloud. The reason why she asked him "to be saved by a hero" was to satisfy her childish princess desire."
"Though Cloud held feelings for Tifa in the past, her interest into him did not begin until the time where the promise was exchanged."
Also, in a flashback scene, it is clearly stated that Tifa didn't only ignore Cloud but didn't even allow him to enter her room when all her other friends did.
So say again that Tifa didn't avoid or ignore him.

That's exactly the opposite of how those scenes play out. One of Tifa's friends sees him, asks TIFA if he should be let in, and he's LET IN. As for your second quote, the interest is contextually related to Cloud's feelings. Though Cloud was crushing on Tifa for a long time, she didn't return the interest until later.

However, it's not mentioned that they did. Considering the fact that they never had a conversation before, I think it's rather plausible.

You just made this up, whole cloth.

I think you're confusing something here. Tifa didn't knew about any mako poisoning or something like that. She recognized him from her childhood, yes, but that was all. She also needed a rather long time to realize that he holds memories inside his mind he shouldn't remember. And even then, Tifa is unsure if she is just confusing things.
So, does she know him that well? Find the answer for yourself because it doesn't seem that way.

Yes, Tifa doesn't know that Cloud has someone else's memories until WELL AFTER she has determined he is not acting quite like Cloud. Without knowledge of Mako poisoning, or knowing he's putting himself in someone else's memories, or magic powers, she knows something is off with him and wants to keep a closer eye on him.

Wrong. Cloud and Tifa did encounter a few days before the mission starts.

...
One, citation please.
Two, You realize this defeats your immediate preceding argument? Tifa knows in a span of mere days that something's not right with Cloud, since she offers him the job with AVALANCHE after she realize things are not right with Mr. Strife.

Calm it down, Fairheartstrife. I won't allow you to treat me with offense like this.
You say this in a calm and serious manner to me, and you state in which points you disagree and why.
If I don't show any offense to you, then you are expected not to do so as well.

You are showing a flagrant disrespect by inventing things whole cloth.

Good point, I agree.
However, I think it was stated somewhere that CoL was narrated by Aerith and Sephiroth.

No. Never.

Also, Aerith is the only woman stated
* to be a Cetra
* to be a possible love interest to Cloud
* to know Sephiroth from face to face
But since I currently don't have a quote saying that CoL:W was narrated by Aerith, I agree with you.

The woman is never declared to be a love interest to Cloud, or recognize Sephiroth. Cloud is someone SHE loved, and it is the man she knows, not Sephiroth.
Yes, it's patently absurd to declare we can't know that COLW and COLB weren't narrated by A and S. But that's what you're doing here, LL.

I have my own views about this scene; if it's not stated by any of the creators, then I guess I can't say it's true.

You have just declared the entire concept of literary analysis impossible. Good job.

I think she can, but it's unlikely since Zacks is never mentioned in the context of love with her.

He is, actually. He's called her first love and first boyfriend several times. Her feelings for Zack are why she falls for ZaCloud.

I thought you all read the novellas and already knew what was written in them.
Tifa says that Cloud, having started his delivery service, is barely at home. So I think it's clear where I got it from, right?

If it's clear where you got it from, then you'll be so kind as to either provide evidence or never demand it from anyone else ever again. A hint: Doing that last one is a bad idea. Provide evidence.

It wasn't said "shell". It was said "essence", a synonym to "entity" or "being". So if she has seen through Clouds "entity" or "being", this isn't comparable to just see through Clouds "shell" since the context changes.

So, if Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud, she didn't get a good look, because she still needs to get to know him, by her own admission. His heart is still closed to her- by her own admission. Cloud opened his heart only for another, according to the Prologue book for AC.

I think you have a different view of the pre-Cloud and the real Cloud.
The pre-Cloud remains the same in personality as the real Cloud; however, his motions, memories, and habits are changed to be more like Zacks. So Cloud does only change his persona, not his personality. You can easily tell by comparing Clouds and Zacks personalities.

Faux!Cloud and Real Cloud are just as unalike as Faux!Cloud and Zack. He's a composite entity.
Interesting distinction you make there. Pray tell, what effective difference is there between the persona and personality?

So what does Aerith mean? Obviously that she wants to get to know the real Cloud without his fantasy persona.

So she doesn't know the real Cloud. Glad we got that settled.

Tifa helps him because she loves him.
And in which sense does she help?
She helps him regain his original memories and persona. Since she is the only one who knew that he was present in Nibelheim.

No, that's not the reason why she can help. The reason why she can help is because she's the only one Cloud will allow inside. The person whom he trusts in him even when he doesn't.

Wait.
We just clarified that she loves Cloud at the time after FFVII. Let's keep that in mind.
So. We know that she once fell in love with Zacks. How do we know that this ended?
Because she says so.
She says that she won't write him any more letters. She says to Cloud that her relationship with Zacks wasn't a serious one and that he was "good for a while". This doesn't mean that he doesn't hold a place in her heart but that she stopped loving him romantically - especially when he isn't mentioned to have any romantical bond left with her or vice versa. Additionally, one could say that she says that she doesn't love Zacks any longer in Maiden, but it's still in debate if it's canon or not.

The letters don't say she's stopped loving him, just that this is her last letter and she hopes it reaches him. Aerith's words in FF7 must be compared with what her mother says about how she'd been very hurt emotionally by a SOLDIER in the past and what the creators have said about her feelings for Zack being why she falls for Cloud.

And like I said before, you don't know that unless it was stated.

An asinine and self defeating viewpoint. Agnosticism mixed with authoritarianism. Cloud uses the sword as a grave marker for Zack. His memory of Zack includes Buster. He actually talks to the sword when apologizing to Zack for failing at his promise to live for both of them.

I doubt that he's got his own home. If he were there, he would have either taken Marlene with him or he had returned to be with her in the Seventh Heaven.
Maybe he means that Barret is currently present there because of his work?
I will look that up.

Barret has lived entirely away from the Marlene for two years as of AC/C. He didn't take Marlene because he needed to better himself as a person and help to make the world right for her, so he left her in more capable hands. He lives elsewhere, searching for Oil and working with Cid to make rocket fuel and other energy sources.

Ähm, yes, I did.

Someone tell June that Ward is a neglectful father.

Agreed, he does this.
However, she leaves completely later, so the current situation after AC remains unknown.

He resumes living with Tifa and the kids and even refuses jobs to spend more time with the family.

Agreed and disagreed.
Cloud says he wants Tifa to deny his jobs and to close the bar.
He doesn't say why. The "he-wants-to-spend-time-with-his-family"-part was completely interpretation though I would appreciate this to be real.

Given that being with his family makes Cloud happy, it's a very small step from 'tell Tifa to close the bar' to 'spend time with family.'

Indeed, at the time of CoT and AC, he is barely at home.

Untrue. He is OFTEN at home during the end of CoT, and while he's away from home during most of AC, this is a short deviation from the norm.

This is not true. I claimed that someone elses argument is baseless since there is nothing to refer to.
This doesn't mean that my claim is baseless.

It does if your claim can be dismissed on the same grounds.

I don't know, maybe... the game?

That narrows things down. BE SPECIFIC.

Wait. Wasn't he writing her a letter? He did say that he thought Tifa wouldn't come because he thought she hated him.

Where did you get that he wrote her a letter from?

Also, other boys were writing her letters to come with them to the tower. So you don't know if they talked since it was highly implied that he did only write her a letter.

Where are you getting letters from? Even with the 'everyone was asking her out,' there's still not letters involved.

Well, then Tifa is - in your opinion - a moron. Well, after the promise, she fell in love with said "bully", so I think she would be of other opinion.

Someone of dreams to be a hero is who she fell in love with. Incidentally, you've taken what was presented arguendo and assumed it as held position.

Mentioned where?

The CCU, for starters.

You might tell me where you got that from?

Cloud has spent at the bare minimum a week in sector 7. However, it's probably more.
Zack dies in September. Cloud isn't in the best state. He's found in the trainyard, still in the same state. Given his status and his needing to eat, it can't be much more than a couple of days from Zack's death to Cloud being found.
The game begins December 9th. Not only are weeks in there, months are as well.

I wonder where this was stated.

Um, literally, Cloud's very core of self is fixated on memories relating to Tifa.

So, if you compare, then there are major differences.
* First, you don't know who would take the place of Rachel and of Celes. Rachel was Lockes first love and Celes his second. However, Tifa was Clouds first love and Aerith would be his second. (And to remind you: this would also equal Aeriths affection for Cloud since Zacks was her first love and Cloud her second). So, Locke went from his first to his second love. This would mean for Cloud to switch on from Tifa to Aerith and for Aerith to switch on from Zacks to Cloud (this would also be applicable for Rinoa since she switched from Seifer to Squall). However, Rachel dies and Locke begins to fall in love with Celes who lives. In this case, Aerith would take the role of Rachel and Tifa the role of Celes. However, Locke refuses to let go of Rachel until she asks him to love Celes with all his heart as he loved her. This makes a major difference since neither Tifa nor Aerith did something like that.

So, let's go with Ingus and Sarah, or Cecil and Rosa. Both first loves that got realized. Both with childhood friends, too.
Or we can go with Squall's first love. Or Dagger's first love. Or any other number of criteria.

However, the word "beloved" was translated into a word that is only used to describe romance. And like I said before, nothing about Zack and Aeirth is stated after the time of FFVII.

Does it need to be? Her feelings for Zack were part of why she falls for Cloud.
And 'beloved' just means that the object of the sentence is loved by the subject of the sentence.
Actually, quite a few hilariously creepy dudes and ladies in fiction have refered to people as 'my beloved' when said person didn't even know they existed.

Okay, then give me quotes where it's said that Aerith doesn't love Cloud at the time after FFVII or where it's said that she still loves Zacks at the time after FFVII since your quotes flatout say that.

This sounds suspiciously like a goalpost shift.

"It seemed like he just wanted to make her believe that everything was alright. An expression of a gentle personality - or did she misunderstand that?"

That is NOT what I see in CoT. Whar be you getting this from?

There is evidence that she continued to love him, not that they had a relationship at the time of his death. I'm sorry for not clearing that up before.

That's a materially different claim, though, and cannot be used to support the idea of romance between living and dead.

You didn't read my post properly. I am currently talking about Aerith trying to reunite with Cloud at the time between FFVII and AC/C since that was questioned.
However, she waits for Cloud at the end of the road filmed in Hawaii, so maybe you could say that she wants to say Hi to him again. However, I'm not sure if you can say it this way.

Err, she's not at the 'end of the road.' She's off somewhere in a field and probably watches Cloud go by. And that's not in ACC, anyways.

Yes, since it was said that Tifa ignored him until the promise.
This was the first and only time they talked together since there is no conversation shown after that.

No, it says she didn't take interest or 'notice of' Cloud until then. These are both quite different from ignoring him, especially since in both cases, the implication is that this is when her romance for him begins, not her strict awareness.

Not in the english ACC.
However, she does in AC and - as far as I know - in the japanese version of ACC.

Nein. Not in JP either. I've got that one.

Ahh.
So Cloud himself is beaten by them and still expects Tifa to face an opponent who he lost to himself? We know how it ended: Tifa lost to only one of the guys without the motorcycle thingie. I guess Cloud didn't expect that...?

Expected to? No, Cloud DIDN'T expect Tifa to face them. GLD is saying Cloud wanting to leave them out of things for their own safety would be a good thing.

Yes, and this is stated to be one of the reasons he left.
However, with the appearance of the silverhaired gang, they are a new constant in the equation, and this changes the situation since there are violent people running around to attack him without any reason he knows of. So it's your opinion that Cloud would leave his family in unawareness of this information to protect them?

Cloud certainly shouldn't head to his family when HE SPECIFICALLY is being targeted as far as he knows. That would get them in danger. Danger they got into anyways, but still.

Okay, she doesn't trample, but she walks over them. You might like a reference picture, hmm? You shall have one. http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/marlenestampsupehy3i8fb.jpg

A: She was playing in them and rushing to safety at Tifa's hem.
B: No one's claiming Aerith and her flowers are of utmost importance to Marlene. The same is said about Cloud on a few occasions.

Ahh. You thought I would claim that as well.

Consider it forestalling such argument, just in case. It comes up more often than one might think.

Again, what did I say?
Did I say that he is never present?
No.
I said that he is not very often there, therefore barely present.

But this is contrary to the facts. He is there most nights, and for a significant period, he makes an effort to be home early enough to spend time with the kids. Post AC/C, he declines offers for work to spend more time with the family.

Do you mean Barret meaning that Marlene is better off at the Seventh Heaven the time he isn't there or that Marlene should have Cloud and Tifa as her new parents?

He thinks she's better off living with Cloud and Tifa than raising her himself because in his estimation, he's not a fit person to raise her directly, not until he's changed himself around and proven that he can be a productive member of society, building it, not tearing it down. He's left her with Cloud and Tifa so they can do what he feels he can't. Consider it like being taken care of by an aunt and uncle. Your parents are still your parents, but you're part of the aunt and uncle's family unit now.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

One would think that the German would be one hell of a lot easier to translate into English than the Japanese. German does after all share a root language with English and has the same basic grammatical rules and so on. Some find it easier since all nouns get the capitalized treatment we English speakers reserve for proper nouns. So unless LL's English is bad, which doesn't seem to be the case, I doubt she's made too many mistakes.

But then, who knows what may have happened in the Japanese to German translations, before the German to English was ever considered? I'm all for comparing the different translations, and I take it on faith that LL didn't willfully alter this to cut down Cloti in taking it from German to English.

But, I'm in no way adverse to having another check over it either if she's willing. It never hurts to double check. I'm no translator, but I've seen enough translations to guess that even an "easy" one can be easy to bork.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

It is stated. And it's days. Less than 2 weeks.

Are you sure about that? In this case, I would agree with you.

Also, she's given up? Which is totally why she calls him within the first 15 minutes of ACC... ooookay...

Tifa is phoning with Yuffie in the first 15 minutes of the movie.
Cloud only hears his answering machine since it was also stated that he didn't answer the phone from the time he left.

Which Tifa encouraged him to do, so your fail!logic is still fail.

So this does contradict what I said? How?

Kid. Singular. Denzel is not there yet.

Are you sure? Wasn't Tifa saying that Cloud took himself more time to spend with his family because of Denzel?

On their date at the Gold Saucer.

She calls him a confused child? You're sure about that? Wasn't this in one of the optional dialogue things the player could choose?

That's some mighty fine conjecture you got there.

It was directly stated. I never thought she did ask him because of that, though.

And this is from what source material, exactly?

FFVII Ultimania Omega p.24 and 25.

Oh, that's right, it's not.

You might want to look it up instead of claiming that it wasn't said.

Making shit up only makes you look ill informed.

No offense, I didn't do anything like that to you either.

Perhaps you could use better sources than fandom essays, yes?

Those quote (the one beneath) was used by your side, too, so I think it's valid enough...?

Chances are they at least exchanged pleasantries...or Cloud is a weirdo stalker that needs lots and lots of therapy even before Shin-Ra gets him.

It was said that:
* they weren't close
* he was never in her room
* she avoided him her entire childhood until the time of the promise
* she also thought they would have been close because they had been neighbours but admits that this isn't true
So they were not close and likely didn't talk to each other more than once.

She knew him well enough to know something was wrong with him. That's the point.

Agreed, she sensed that an ambiguous something was wrong with him.

Especially since she didn't KNOW he was THERE.

I didn't refer to the Nibelheim scene, I did refer to her childhood.

Are you purposefully ignoring facts?

If Tifa says that she doesn't know what his facial expressions could mean, then I don't think you are to disagree with her.

Sweetie, I am as civil as you're gonna see me.

I would like to remark you're calling me "stupid" with the habit of "making up shit out of nowhere" because I thought you did already know the sources since the quote was already brought up that often.

I am calm.

I see. Convincing, convincing.

I curse. A lot. If that offends your delicate sensibilities, well, then that's on you.

You may curse as much as you want unless you do not insult me.

Nope. You'd be wrong.

Don't worry, I'll search for that one. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe not. Just be patient.

Also, Aerith is the only woman stated
* to be a Cetra​

Ilfana

* to be a possible love interest to Cloud​

Jessie.

You're missing the point. I want a woman besides Aerith where all three conditions are applicable.

Anyone he may have come into contact with through Shin-ra, including Ilfana

Wrong. No one was aware that Sephiroth was alive until the ShinRa episode.

Ok, its been a bit since your last post and I spent some time replying to Anastar and ClerithRaven, so I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to here.

You asked if Cloud looking up for Aerith was romantic. I said that none of my posts contained such a claim.

I said that Tifa, the super-humanly strong and fast, extremely talented martial artist might WANT or even DEMAND to stand with Cloud and fight them.

Sounds plausible to me, I agree. Okay, then we have at least one possible reason why Cloud didn't inform them about the danger.

I admit I called it wrong when I said she stopped at the edge of the flower bed, but I wasn't too far off either.

Hmmh, okiedokie. Then I agree. Marlene did step on the flowers, but she did it carefully.

But, whether you call them a symbol of Aerith or just acknowledge that they were hers and she loved them, Cloud stomps all over those things in his hurry to get to Tifa.

I think it's normal to do so. Cloud hurries to get to Tifa because he doesn't know if she is hurt in a bad degree. I think Aerith would also have no problem with this if her friends life was in danger.

The happier times, before he lets his issues and then his Geostigma drive him out of his home and away from his family.

And I agree with this part. He takes his time to care for the children.

And like Ryu said, Cloud only let Tifa into his heart.

That quote talked about the time where Aerith was already dead.

So.. you're saying that the flowers in the church could be a symbol of anything too, if it's not stated otherwhise?

I think it was already stated that flowers are a symbol of Aerith.
Also, I'd like to say that Cloud is standing near Zacks grave while saying that. So there could be another factor reminding him of Zacks without necessarily being reminded the sword.

Umm... no? In the one I posted it doesn't "seem like he just wanted to make her believe" anything. It was a kind smile. Tifa is the one doubting it because he's now gone and she's insecure.

I'm sorry, but she is right. It was really written like that in the German novella.

In any case, I'd appreciate the original German quote if she can provide it, I can ask my SO to translate it for me and see from where does that difference come.

"Es war ihm wohl daran gelegen, sie glauben zu lassen, alles wäre in bester Ordnung. Ein Ausdruck seines sanften Charakters - oder hatte sie das missverstanden?"

Two, You realize this defeats your immediate preceding argument? Tifa knows in a span of mere days that something's not right with Cloud, since she offers him the job with AVALANCHE after she realize things are not right with Mr. Strife.

So you think it was more plausible if she rather had a few weeks to sense it? Fact is, she senses it - if she does in a time span of two days or two weeks doesn't matter that much.
However, I agree that I'm not sure anymore if it was really said officially. I'll look it up.

The woman is never declared to be a love interest to Cloud, or recognize Sephiroth. Cloud is someone SHE loved, and it is the man she knows, not Sephiroth.

Since Aerith can be a love interest for Cloud, then I think she can be referred to that way.
However, you're right - the woman isn't called something like that, and Sephiroth isn't called by name. I agree.

You have just declared the entire concept of literary analysis impossible. Good job.

:3

He is, actually. He's called her first love and first boyfriend several times. Her feelings for Zack are why she falls for ZaCloud.

I'm asking for quotes taking place after FFVII.

His heart is still closed to her- by her own admission

Was said where?

Pray tell, what effective difference is there between the persona and personality?

A persona is a synonym to a "role" he holds, in this case, Zacks role; a personality is equal to someones character.

So she doesn't know the real Cloud.

She doesn't know about Clouds real memories and his real habits/likings as well as his real motions.
So, what about his personality? Obviously, she knows him.
This would be enough for her to be attracted to him.

The reason why she can help is because she's the only one Cloud will allow inside. The person whom he trusts in him even when he doesn't.

This doesn't make sense.
The Lifestream scene depicts Tifa proving Cloud that he existed as a real person and that he wasn't a Sephiroth clone. There is no mention that "she is the only one he will let inside his heart".

Someone tell June that Ward is a neglectful father.

Poor June...

He resumes living with Tifa and the kids and even refuses jobs to spend more time with the family.

Ah, right, I agree. Then the state after AC is known.

Given that being with his family makes Cloud happy, it's a very small step from 'tell Tifa to close the bar' to 'spend time with family.'

Agreed, but since it's not said clearly, one can't be sure.

Where did you get that he wrote her a letter from?

Because Tifa said in one of her monologues that she got several letters from boys who wanted to go to the tower with her and that only Cloud's was different because he wrote something like joining SOLDIER.

The CCU, for starters.

Um, literally, Cloud's very core of self is fixated on memories relating to Tifa.

You mean Clouds core (the persona he creates) is fixated on the memories Tifa has referring to him? What has this got to do with his heart being fixated on memories relating to Tifa?

So, let's go with Ingus and Sarah, or Cecil and Rosa. Both first loves that got realized. Both with childhood friends, too.
Or we can go with Squall's first love. Or Dagger's first love. Or any other number of criteria.

What about Quistis, Rinoa, and Celes?

Her feelings for Zack were part of why she falls for Cloud.

Indeed, and then it's stated that she "soon falls for the real Cloud" and still shows "a great affection towards him".

This sounds suspiciously like a goalpost shift.

...?

That's a materially different claim, though, and cannot be used to support the idea of romance between living and dead.

I agree that it's indeed a different claim, but how do you think does it neglect the idea of romance between living and dead? You still can continue to love a person though she passed away, and in Yunas case, Tidus even came back to her.

Err, she's not at the 'end of the road.' She's off somewhere in a field and probably watches Cloud go by.

Okay, again.
Clouds rides his bike somewhere. He rides through a place where you can see the sea.
Then the scene changes to Aerith standing in a flowerfield.
The scene changes again and Cloud still rides with Fenrir to somewhere.
In the end, he is seen driving into a flower field. We don't know if he passed by or stopped in the end of AC; however, we know that he stops there in Reminiscence. Therefore, he stopped there some time after AC/C.

Not in JP either. I've got that one.

You're sure?
Well, I guess then I'm wrong.

Cloud certainly shouldn't head to his family when HE SPECIFICALLY is being targeted as far as he knows.

I talked about phoning or mailing her, but we have already found one possible reason for him to do not.

No one's claiming Aerith and her flowers are of utmost importance to Marlene. The same is said about Cloud on a few occasions.

However, Marlene likes flowers.
Also, I don't think Aerith would be angry at Cloud because he tramples off her flowers to save his best friend.

But then, who knows what may have happened in the Japanese to German translations, before the German to English was ever considered?

Good point.

I'm all for comparing the different translations, and I take it on faith that LL didn't willfully alter this to cut down Cloti in taking it from German to English.

To be honest, there was barely something to cut down, in regards to both Clerith and CloTi. Especially the line that says the church is "Clouds place" is somewhat toned down.

It never hurts to double check.

That would be awesome!^^

 

[Anastar]

I will respond to other posts later when I have more time. Remember, there's only one of me and several people answering each of my posts. It's hard to cover everything.

Right now, Quexinos tells me that my essay on evidence for CloudxAerith isn't showing because links to other sites will not show in this thread. So I'm going to copy and paste it into this post - or at least try to. I know my own forum will not allow that many characters in one post, so I'm not sure what will happen here. But I'll try.

If the whole essay doesn't show here, then click into my website. The link's in my sig (http://clerith.heliohost.org). Go to the first page. Under the update for 9/27/11, there's a link to an essay named FFVII and AC/ACC from the Clerith Perspective, by Anastar. That's the essay I've been trying to link you to.

Again, I will try to answer the other posts to me later. In the meantime, here's the essay:
============================

FFVII and AC/ACC from the Clerith perspective
by Anastar

The first indication of Cloud and Aerith's love is given in the official commercial for the game. In that commercial, the word "Love" appears over a scene of Cloud laying Aerith to rest along with a voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be".

There's no reason for SE to put the word "Love" over a picture of Cloud and Aerith if they aren't in love. Furthermore, the voice over saying, "the story of a love that could never be" would mean that FFVII is a story about the love of Cloud and Aerith.

Although some people say that the phrase "a love that could never be" means that the love can never exist, it's been verified for us at allexperts.com that the phrase is actually talking about a love that exists despite circumstances that would normally prevent it. Here's a link to their answer:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/General-Writing...ning-phrase.htm

Furthermore, "a love that could never be" is often used in reference to the love of Romeo and Juliet. If you look the phrase up on Google, you can see how many times it's used to describe the love of Romeo and Juliet:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&s...c5229e2e8efe107

In the same commercial, SE also talks about Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth, which is saying that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are the exact opposite of his feelings for Sephiroth: who Cloud loves vs. who Cloud hates. In the same commercial, Tifa is only seen with the other members of Avalanche under the title of "Friendship".

It's interesting to note that Cloud continues to hate Sephiroth in Advent Children/Complete despite the fact that Sephiroth is dead. If Cloud's hatred for Sephiroth can continue despite Sephiroth being dead, then Cloud's love for Aerith can continue despite the fact that she's dead. Furthermore, the idea that love can continue beyond death is also proven by Yuna's continuing love for Tidus in FFX-2.

Another piece of evidence for Cloud and Aerith's love is that the only male/female figurine made by SE for FFVII is of Cloud and Aerith:

This is significant because SE only makes male/female figurines and statues of romantic pairings, such as FFVIII's Squall/Rinoa, FFXII's Balthier/Fran, FFIX's Zidane/Garnet, Chrono Trigger's Chrono/Marle, Kingdom Hearts's Kairi/Sora, and CC's Zack/Aerith. As well, a figurine made by SE for Advent Children shows Cloud standing in Aerith's church:

Although the figure of Aerith isn't actually there, she is obviously represented by the light streaming down on Cloud, the flowers at his feet, and the floorboards of her Church. Since other figures and cold-cast statues made by SE for their games always show a male/female romantic pairing, then the statues of Cloud/Aerith must also show a romantic pairing.

There are also many hints of Cloud and Aerith's feelings for one another in the dialogue of FFVII. Cloud's monologue in Dismantled shows his attraction to her when they first meet:

Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
.......
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. ~FFVII Dismantled

Later in the game, Cloud falls through the roof of Aerith's church. Aerith offers Cloud a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard and Cloud accepts. It seems fairly obvious that Aerith wouldn't offer a date in exchange for Cloud being her bodyguard unless Aerith was attracted to Cloud, and that Cloud wouldn't accept that as payment unless he was attracted to Aerith.

It's also obvious that Aerith is significant to Cloud when she is kidnapped by Shinra and taken to Hojo's lab. In the first place, Aerith is the first thing on Cloud's mind after she is kidnapped:

(Barret faces Cloud, whose back is still turned.)
Barret "An' what about you?"
(Cloud looks up, still not turning.)
Cloud "..........."
(He leaves the playground.)
Barret "Yo!"
"Where's he think he's goin'?"
Tifa "Oh! Aerith!"
Barret '"Oh yeah, that girl. What's up with her?"
Tifa "...I don't really know... But she's the one I left Marlene with."
Barret "Damn! Marlene!!" ~FFVII Script, Disk One

Cloud leaves for Aerith's house after saying only a few words to Barret after the tower blows up. Therefore, Aerith is obviously the first thing on Cloud's mind. That's reinforced by Cloud's monologue in FFVII Dismantled soon after the tower blows up:

Cloud: If only she was not involved in this battle, between me and Shinra…..
Aerith’s mother told us that she’s a foster child. And because she’s the last survival of “the Ancents,” Shinra was after her since she’s little.
So far, it seemed the Turks had never tried to forcibly take her away in violent manner. They just persistently asked for her cooperation.
But, Shinra was entirely impetuous this time.
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means! ~FFVII Dismantiled

Once they break into Hojo's lab to rescue Aerith in the Shinra building, there's even more evidence of a relationship developing between Cloud and Aerith:

FFVII: Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she [Tifa] inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania

That passage in the Ultimania is obviously talking about this scene in the Shinra jail after they rescue Aerith, since Tifa shows how irritated she is when she learns that Cloud has promised Aerith a date:

Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"
Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"
Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right."
(She swings her legs over the side of the cot.)
Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
(She walks to the door of her cell.)
Aerith "The deal was for one date, right?"
(Tifa sits up.)
Tifa "............oh, I get it." ~FFVII script, Disk One

The idea that Tifa sees Cloud and Aerith developing a close bond together is further reinforced in two other places in FFVII Dismantled:

It’s just that... I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder… ~Tifa's monologue, Don Corneo's mansion, FFVII Dismantled

Cloud and Aerith sometimes cause Tifa's jealous feelings to show through. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII Dismantled

The idea that Cloud and Aerith cause Tifa to get jealous suggests that something between Cloud and Aerith is making Tifa jealous. What could that be? One thing that could make Tifa jealous is that she sees a romantic relationship building between Cloud and Aerith. That same idea is repeated in Tifa's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she [Tifa] feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

As you can see, the 10th AU specifically says that Aerith is a "love rival" to Tifa, which means that Tifa sees that Cloud's affection for Aerith is growing. The 10th AU also says that Aerith is building a special bond with Cloud that is different from Tifa's relationship with him. One way that Tifa's relationship with Cloud could be different from his relationship to Aerith is that Tifa is a friend to Cloud, while Cloud and Aerith are building a relationship along romantic lines.

Notice, too, that the same passage says that Tifa's "complicated" feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith's death. In that case, it's possible that Cloud's love for Aerith has continued for the last two years.

Another indication that Cloud and Aerith are developing a romantic relationship in FFVII is a quote from Aerith's info page in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

When talking about the "rare smile" which Aerith brings out in Cloud during the game, the FFVII Ultimania Omega says that "there seems to be something between them". ~Aerith's info page, FFVII Ultimania Omega

The idea of Cloud and Aerith having a romantic relationship was also reinforced in the official novellas written by Nojima. In Case of Lifestream: White, there's one line that says this:

Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (sweetheart/boyfriend) (Note: "the woman" in this sentence clearly refers to Aerith.) ~Case of Lifestream: White

The word translated here as "lover" is koibito in Japanese. Koibito has several translations, including "lover", "sweetheart", and "boyfriend". All of these words would indicate that a mutual love exists between Cloud and Aerith. At times, however, the word koibito can also be translated as "beloved", which can mean that the affection is one-sided. Since there is no official translation for this story, it's not certain which translation SE intended for this passage.

Another quote reinforcing the idea of love existing between Cloud and Aerith is by Nomura in U.S. Playstation Magazine:

Nomura: Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there's no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There's no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It's sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players. ~ Nomura, U.S. Playstation Magazine, October 2002, page 139-140

Notice that Nomura specifically says that the ending of KH may answer some questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aerith in FFVII. The scene of Cloud and Aerith reuniting at the end of KH happens after other characters in the story have been reunited with their lost loves - Aladdin finds Jasmine, Beast finds Beauty, Tarzan finds Jane, etc. The parallel is very clear, IMO, and Nomura specifically says that this scene is about Cloud and Aerith's relationship in FFVII.

People sometimes argue that Aerith doesn't know the real Cloud, or that Aerith only loves Cloud because he is so much like Zack. The idea that Aerith only loves Cloud because of Zack is disproved in Aerith's monologue from Dismantled that she loves Cloud much more than Zack:

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.
But Cloud is clueless. Aerith's monologue in Gongaga, page 159, FFVII Dismantled

This is also reinforced by a statement in the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

Does Aerith know the real Cloud? Excerpts from official sources say that she does:

When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack's similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he's not aware of it himself. ~page 31, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, then she obviously knows who the real Cloud is. Another quote from the FFVII UO:

So you won't have a breakdown..." - Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, and she seems to console him with such advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through to the essence of Cloud. ~page 156, FFVII Ultimania Omega

If Aerith's seen through to the essence of Cloud, then she's been able to perceive who Cloud really is. Another passage in the FFVII UO explains that Aerith is able to perceive the real Cloud due to her abilities as a Cetra:

I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a breakdown." - what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that the present Cloud is not the real him during their encounters. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability. ~page 29, FFVII Ultimania Omega

This passage states that she can see that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. The other two passages above go on to say that Aerith can perceive who Cloud really is. Therefore, we can definitely say that Aerith knows the real Cloud.

There's several indications of Cloud's affection for Aerith during the game, although many of them are under player control. However, we see evidence of his affection in this non-optional statement that Cloud makes in Cosmo Canyon when they are sitting around the campfire:

Aerith "I'm...... alone..... I'm all alone now..."
Cloud "But I'm..... we're here for you, right?" ~FFVII script, Disk One

Cloud says that he's there for Aerith, but changes it to "we" due to his lack of self-confidence. Despite that, he starts the sentence with "I'm", which would indicate that he truly feels that *he* is there for her. Further evidence can be found in the game when Cait Sith makes his first prediction for Cloud when they meet in the Gold Saucer:

The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about finding Sephiroth has three results. If you disregard the first two, the noticeable one is the third, which becomes the chance for him to join the party - "What you pursue will be yours. But you will lose something dear."

As the storyline moves on to the events of the Forgotten City, the loss of “something dear” can be seen as losing Aerith, or it may hint at Cloud’s self breakdown at the Northern Crater. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 120

The accuracy of Cait Sith's predictions can't be argued here, since SE specifies what his prediction means - that Cloud "will lose something dear" *can* mean that Cloud loses something dear when Aerith is killed in the Forgotten City.

The FFVII UO goes on to say that Cait Sith's prediction in the Temple of Ancients refers to Cloud and Aerith's wedding:

The last fortune telling from the first Cait Sith:
Cait Sith having a replacement body is the reason that he agreed to do the puzzle at the Temple of Ancients. He tells one last fortune about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility.

The result of it turns out as, "Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!" Later, it will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps.

Caption:
Cait Sith's lines which predict Cloud and Aerith's wedding now becomes more painful. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, page 151

Once again, the accuracy of Cait Sith's prediction can't be argued here, since SE is telling us what Cait Sith's prediction means. SE also tells us that Cait Sith is talking about Cloud and Aerith's compatibility. The FFVII UO says that Cait Sith's prediction is about Cloud and Aerith's wedding, which would definitely imply that they are in love with one another. Why would they get married if they weren't in love? Why would SE even suggest that Cloud and Aerith will get married if there is no romantic relationship between them?

Also notice that the FFVII UO goes on to say that this "will become a sad prediction when we get to know what happens afterward" and that it "now becomes more painful" when Aerith is lost. The only way these predictions would be sad or painful is for those predictions to be true.

In the same passage, the FFVII UO says "if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope... perhaps" suggests that there may be hope for Cloud and Aerith's love despite her death. This is very similar to the commercial saying that FFVII is a story about a love that could never be. There may indeed be hope for their love if Aerith's spirit continues to be with Cloud, like we see in AC/ACC. More will be discussed about that later.

More evidence for the Clerith perspective from Dismantled:

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

In addition to that, the 20th Anniversary Ultimania says that Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud during the Clerith date scene:

During the date, Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud. ~Story Playback, 20th Anniversary Ultimania

If Aerith voices her feelings for Cloud in the gondola, then she expresses her love for him. (Passages from FFVII Dismantled and the FFVII Ultimania Omega which confirm that Aerith loves Cloud are quoted above.)

Although neither source says that Cloud voices his feelings for Aerith during the Date scene, the fireworks after Aerith says that she wants to meet Cloud sure suggest that they kiss. Furthermore, Cloud's love for Aerith is confirmed on this page in the 20th Anniversary Ultimania:

For the One I Love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come. ~page 394, 20th Anniversary Ultimania
Scan: http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Al...tweenHeroes.jpg

Notice that the page says that the "love of the protagonists develop", which means that the love is reciprocal between the hero and heroine in the pictures shown on that page.

This page shows pictures of both the Cloud/Aerith date scene and the Highwind scene with Cloud/Tifa, so FFVII is the only Final Fantasy game with two pictures. FFVII is also the only game where it's specified in this book that both the Clerith date scene and the HW scene are optional.

All pictures shown on that page are of a mutual love between protagonists in different Final Fantasies, so it is confirmed on this page that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is under player control. There is no reason for all pictures on the page to show a mutual love except for the Cloud and Aerith picture. Therefore, this page confirms that a mutual love can exist between Cloud and Aerith, although it is optional to the player.

The same is shown for Cloud and Tifa. Once again, it is specified in this same book that the scenes shown for both Cloud and Aerith and for Cloud and Tifa are optional scenes and under player control.

Some Clerith people see this as indication that who Cloud loves is up to interpretation in the game and that it is dependent on choices made by the player. However, other Clerith people see the love between Cloud and Aerith as being non-optional. They say this because regardless of the choices made during the game, several things are non-optional:

a.) It is non-optional for Cloud to say at the end of the game that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. Clerith people believe that Cloud says this because he loves Aerith and wants to be with her again.
b.) The CloudxAerith date is the default date, as stated in FFVII Dismantled:

1. In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.
2. In the gondola, the line “I’m searching for you” has deep meaning. (you understand, right?) ~FFVII Dismantled, page 189

c.) It is non-optional for Cloud to accept the date as payment for being Aerith's bodyguard.
d.) It is non-optional for Cloud to declare that he's Aerith's bodyguard in front of Tifa.
e.) It is non-optional for Cloud to show a great deal of caring for Aerith during the game.

The player cannot change these things no matter how much the player tries to make Cloud be mean to Aerith. While the Low Affection Highwind scene allows Cloud to blatantly reject Tifa's affection, there is no place in the game where Cloud can reject Aerith's affection. Therefore, while it is optional for Cloud to love Tifa, it is non-optional for Cloud to love Aerith. Even if he optionally falls in love with Tifa, too, he will continue to love Aerith.

In addition to the scenes mentioned above, there are other non-optional scenes where we see Cloud's affection for Aerith in both Disks One and Two. In Disk One, during Aerith's death scene:

Cloud "Aerith is gone."
Cloud "Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry... or get angry..."
(Cloud holds her body close to his own and bows his head close to hers.)
(Cloud's shoulders start heaving as though he is crying.)
Cloud "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?"
(He gently rests her on the floor.)
Cloud "What about my pain?"
(He trembles.)
Cloud "My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!"

In the first place, Cloud shoulders start heaving as though he is crying. This indicates that Cloud is in a great deal of pain and grief over her death. His extreme pain shows that he cares for Aerith very deeply.

In the second place, Cloud says, "What about us... what are WE supposed to do?". It's only logical that Cloud is talking about he and Aerith when he says "us" and asks what "we" are supposed to do. That would mean that Cloud is talking about he and Aerith as a couple, and also that he is wondering what will happen to their relationship. This is reinforced by the following passage from FFVII Dismantled:

Cloud: "Aerith is dead. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth. She was in my reach, and all I could do is stand there and watch as his sword ran through Aerith. All the time Aerith used to smile, like a flower. But, Aerith won't smile anyway. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. What did she do? Why did Aerith have to be killed? What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's like endlessly boiling and burning up my body. Yet at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body. When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do? If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia---Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" ~Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled

The line where Cloud says, "Tell me, Aerith ----" would indicate that he is talking directly to Aerith during the death scene. If Cloud is talking directly to Aerith, then he is referring to them as a couple and asking about what's going to happen to their relationship now that she's dead.

It would NOT be logical for Cloud's words to be asking what Avalanche is supposed to do without Aerith. At that point in the story, they haven't even learned about Holy, so there's no reason for Avalanche to think that they can't save the Planet without Aerith.

Another non-optional scene where we see a special bond between Cloud and Aerith is when he senses her presence in the Forgotten City before she dies:

(They all rest for the night. The scene shifts to later that night. Cloud
is awake, and standing away from the others. He looks up.)
Cloud "I feel it..."
(The others come in. Cloud must have woken them up.)
Cid "Do you know what TIME it is!?"
(Cloud turns to them.)
Cloud "Aerith is here.
...and so is Sephiroth."
Cid "Wa, wa, wait a minute. You serious!?"
Tifa "But how can you tell?"
Cloud "...It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul."

In this passage, Cloud senses Aerith's presence even though he cannot see her. None of the other members of Avalanche sense her presence. Also, Cloud says, "I feel it in my soul". The suggestion that Cloud feels Aerith's presence in his soul implies that the two of them are soul mates.

Yes, Cloud says that Sephiroth is there, too. However, it could easily be that Aerith is the one who lets Cloud know that Sephiroth is there. After all, Cloud learned that Sephiroth was chasing Aerith in the dream that Aerith sent him while she was in the Sleeping Forest:

(Reaching the intersection near the entrance of the Forgotten City, Cloud looks to the north.)
Cloud "Aerith's voice...... Coming from there?"
(He rushes north. Passing through a tunnel, he reaches a secluded, calm, mirrorlike pool. Sunlight shines from above, though it is still midnight. He continues. He enters a small, spiral-shaped building. Taking a long, glass stairway there, he reaches a huge, elegant, crystalline city, suspended in space. Continuing on, he finds a small shrine. Aerith is kneeling inside it.)
Cloud "Aerith?"

In this passage, Cloud once again senses Aerith's presence and hears her voice from a great distance. Cloud says he can hear her voice when he's near the entrance to the Forgotten City, but Aerith is in an underground temple located within a forest. The other members of Avalanche cannot hear her, so once again it is implied that there is a special bond between Cloud and Aerith.

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in Disk Two? There are several pieces of evidence which imply that he does. For one thing, there are a number of official quotes which indicate that Cloud is still missing Aerith at the time Advent Children/Complete starts. (See those quotes below in the section on AC/C.) If Cloud is still missing Aerith at the time Advent Children/Complete starts, then he still misses her during Disk Two of FFVII. A passage in FFVII Dismantled also reinforces that idea:

(Tifa's pov) In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, cuz "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. ~Tifa's monologue in Icicle Village, FFVII Dismantled

Notice that the passage starts with Tifa's talking about *consoling* Cloud after Aerith's death. That means that he is grieving over the loss of Aerith, and that her death is still a source of pain for him. Tifa says that Cloud lost Aerith, which means that it is a very personal loss for Cloud. It also reminds us of Cait Sith's prediction in the Gold Saucer that Cloud "will lose something dear".

Immediately after Tifa talks about consoling Cloud, she says "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of himself also seemed lost". Therefore, in that context, the passage seems to mean that a piece of Cloud seems lost because he has lost Aerith. Once again, this would imply that Cloud is and was in love with Aerith.

Also note that this passage comes up in Icicle village on Disk Two, which confirms that Cloud is still thinking of Aerith at that time. Other dialogue from Disk Two in the game suggests that Cloud continues to think of Aerith:

(Cloud looks down)
Cloud "I remember Aerith a lot."
Cloud "No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten."
Cloud "That's not it... How would you say it..."
Cloud "Aerith was right there all along. Right by our side."
Cloud "She was so close, we couldn't see her."
Cloud "What Aerith did... The words she left behind..." ~In Cosmo Canyon, Disk Two, FFVII

Cloud "Aerith has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future..."
Cloud "I'm sorry... Aerith. I should have figured this out sooner."
Cloud "...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think..."
Cloud "That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aerith... I understand now."
Cloud "Aerith... I'll do the rest."
Cloud "Thank you... Aerith." ~the Forgotten City, Disk Two, FFVII

Both passages indicate that Cloud is still thinking of Aerith during Disk Two. The second passage in the Forgotten City also indicates that Cloud considers it his personal mission to carry out Aerith's last wish when he says, "Aerith... I'll do the rest.

We see other indications that Cloud continues to think of Aerith during Disk Two, such as this dialogue on the Highwind:

Cloud "I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have." ~on board the Highwind, Disk Two, FFVII

Although it's never specified what Cloud's "personal memory" is, it can easily be interpreted that Cloud's memory is Aerith. After all, he just got through saying that he's fighting to save the Planet, and that's what Aerith tried to do. Cloud promised in the Forgotten City to do the rest for her. So Aerith could easily be that personal memory.

Another passage soon after that indicates the same thing:

(Aerith's Theme begins to play in the background.)
Red XIII "......Although she's not here, she left us a window of opportunity..."
(He looks at Cid. Cid turns to Cloud and nods.)
Cid "We can't let it go like this."
(Cloud turns away and stares out the window.)
Cloud "......Aerith."
"She was smiling to the end."
"We have to do something, or that smile will just freeze like that."
(He turns to the others. He nods.)
Cloud "Let's all go together."
"Memories of Aerith......"
"Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......"
"We've got to let go of Aerith's memory." ~on board the Highwind, Disk Two, FFVII

The phrase, "We've got to let go of Aerith's memory" has been shown in translation to mean that they have to *free* Aerith's memory because Sephiroth has blocked her. In conjunction with the earlier phrase, it's easy to see how Aerith could indeed be the "personal memory" that Cloud referred to.

Clerith people consider the hand reach scene at the end of the game to be the most romantic scene in the game, and to clearly show the love Cloud has for Aerith. After all, SE has used a hand reach scene for other couples in their games, such as Kairi/Sora in KH1:

Note that Sora looks very similar to Cloud reaching out for Aerith at the end of FFVII. Then, SE shows another hand reach scene between Kairi/Sora in KH2, similar to how SE reenacted the hand reach scene between Cloud and Aerith in AC/C:

There is also a hand reach scene shown between Snow and Serah in FFXIII:

Since hand reach scenes have been used by SE to show a romantic connection in other games, then the hand reach scene in FFVII could easily mean the same thing.

Do Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in Advent Children/Complete? A number of official quotes reinforce that idea:

I believe, for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and loves for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day. ~Nomura interview, Dengeki Playstation

A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud's heart for the rest of his life. ~Aerith's profile, DoC game manual

The phrase "engraved in one's heart" is often used in literature to mean that someone is in love with another. The following quote from Tifa's profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania also shows that Cloud's feelings for Aerith continue in AC/ACC:

A close friend as well as rival? The complicated emotions she [Tifa] feels towards Aerith.

Both of them share feelings for Cloud — Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s.

Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. ~Tifa's profile, FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 42-47

This passage basically says that Tifa is jealous of the special bond between Cloud and Aerith, and that Tifa's jealousy continues in AC/ACC. Tifa's jealousy wouldn't continue unless she realized that Cloud's feelings for Aerith had continued. Note that Aerith is specifically called a "love rival". This clearly indicates that Tifa recognizes that Cloud has feelings for Aerith.

Nomura also said that Aerith is in Cloud's heart in this interview:

It mentions the images (of a face or appearance) that even now live in Cloud's heart, with images of the bottom half of Aerith's face, the flower garden and the Forgotten Capital. ~Interview with Nomura published at FFVIIAC Reunion

That interview was published at AdventChildren.net, which no longer exists. However, a screenshot of that page can be found here:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/Alexa024/ACNet.gif

As mentioned earlier, the only male/female figurine made for Advent Children was the one of Cloud standing in Aerith's Church:
http://clerith.heliohost.org/ClerithEssay3.jpg

This is significant because SE only makes male/female figurines and statues of romantic pairings. Although the figure of Aerith isn't actually there, she is obviously represented by the light streaming down on Cloud, the flowers at his feet, and the floorboards of her Church.

In addition to this, the FFVII International Game Disks as developed for Advent Pieces Limited feature pictures of Cloud, Aerith, and Sephiroth on Disks 1, 2, and 3 as shown in the picture to the left below. The other members of Avalanche, including Tifa, are shown on Disk 4, which is shown in the picture to the right below:

It's pretty obvious that SE is showing the main hero and heroine of the game and movie along with the antagonist on Disks 1, 2, and 3. If Tifa were considered the main heroine and love interest, it's only logical that she would be pictured on the three main disks rather than Aerith. Instead, Tifa is pictured on Disk 4 along with the other members of Avalanche.

Also, from the Distance interview on the Advent Children DVD:

The words “memetic legacy” are used a lot in the film…but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud…he sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness…lives on inside him. ~Nomura; Distance Interview

If Aerith lives on inside of Cloud, then she is always with him. This could indeed be possible, since Cloud was saturated with Mako (Lifestream) by Hojo. Since Aerith's spirit and consciousness now exist in the Lifestream, I would think that there's enough Lifestream in Cloud for Aerith's spirit to actually exist there.

In the Reunion Files, Aerith's voice actor also suggested that Aerith's presence is always with Cloud:

She's [Aerith's] presented in this movie as Cloud remembers her, and her spirit is still with him - talking to him throughout the film. ~Maaya Sakamoto (Aerith's voice actor), pg. 58, Reunion Files

Aerith's presence always being with Cloud is also inferred by a scene in Calling, the final FMV of Advent Children:

As you can see, Aerith's image is superimposed over Cloud's image, which would suggest that she is always with him. (Please note that when Aerith first appears in this brief scene, she is directly superimposed over Cloud, which isn't shown in the screenshot.)

Nomura said that the song Calling, which plays during the video, was supposed to demonstrate the message of Advent Children. It was especially picked by him to portray Cloud's feelings:

"In the scene where it plays I'm trying to portray the message of the film and Cloud's feelings through silence and the song. I think people will feel the persuasive power of the song when they view the scene." ~Tetsuya Nomura, reported at 1up.com: Advent Children: Title Song Picked

Nowhere during the Calling video do we see anything of Tifa. The whole focus of the video is on Aerith and Cloud.

It is also notable that Cloud is shown during both Safe and Sound, the final FMV of Advent Children Complete, as well as during Calling, the final FMV of Advent Children, as riding through flower fields rather than returning to the Seventh Heaven. Nomura directly related the flower fields to Aerith when he said this in the Reunion Files:

In keeping with the notion that Cloud is in the live action world in the end, we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith's church. ~Nomura, Reunion Files, pg. 87

Therefore, Cloud is shown surrounded by flowers that symbolize Aerith in both of the final FMV's instead of returning to the Seventh Heaven. The final scene of Advent Children Complete is also a picture of the interior of Aerith's church. That's interesting since it has been confirmed that Cloud's Promised Land is Aerith's church:

The place where he awakens---
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma-- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet---. ~FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, AC Playback. (revised edition)

The place where Cloud awakens is Aerith's Church, so her church is Cloud's Promised Land. Therefore, the ending scene of ACC is showing Cloud's Promised Land, a place that he clearly associates with Aerith. This is significant because at the end of FFVII, Cloud said this after the hand reach scene:

An answer from the Planet...
the Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there. ~FFVII, Disk Two

If Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land and Cloud said that he could meet her there, then we can conclude that Cloud found Aerith's spirit in the Church and that she is now part of his life once again. The paragraph about Cloud's Promised Land also says this:

And when he turns around--- "she" is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

The passage says that Cloud *no longer* has to suffer in loneliness now that he has found Aerith again. This clearly insinuates that Cloud was actually feeling lonely during the two years after FFVII, but that he no longer feels lonely after finding Aerith again.

That is reinforced by Tifa's monolgue in Dismantled early in Disk Two when she says this:

(Tifa's pov) In Gast's home, Tifa said Cloud was even more reticent after Aerith's death. She failed finding suitable words to console him, cuz "he doesn't seem to lose Aerith only, a piece of him also seemed lost." She kept saying that she'd never forgive Hojo. ~Tifa's monologue in Icicle Village, FFVII Dismantled

If Cloud found Aerith in the Promised Land during Advent Children, then he found the part of himself that had been missing for the last two years. He has been reunited with Aerith, his true love.


THE END

=================

 

[Ryushikaze]

Are you sure about that? In this case, I would agree with you.


Tifa is phoning with Yuffie in the first 15 minutes of the movie.
Cloud only hears his answering machine since it was also stated that he didn't answer the phone from the time he left.

No. Tifa GETS A CALL from Reno.
She then Calls Cloud, who listens to the message on the phone.

Are you sure? Wasn't Tifa saying that Cloud took himself more time to spend with his family because of Denzel?

Not 'because of Denzel' alone. He was spending more time with the family because the family made him happy, and he thought it was his penance to care for Denzel.

Also, I happen to have the UO on a flash drive, what is being claimed is on p24 and 25?

Addendum: Merchandise.
You're arguing with Merchandise now. Frabjuous Joy, this is going to be silly.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@LL: I thanked your last post, simply because it contained some concessions and compromises with regards to points I had made. We agreed on something. That's rare from either side of this particular debate, though for very different reasons on each side in my eyes.

@Anastar: Ok, got a better grasp of what I am commenting on now. My apologies to anyone who read what was here the first time, that was my bad and the less said of it the better. Now, as to your post... I'm not even going to try to quote that, but my comments are mostly general enough that it shouldn't matter.

Your essay jumps right into the use of commercials as "evidence." Advertisements for a piece of fiction are almost never trustworthy sources for information on the events of said fiction. SE, then Squaresoft, has been demonstrated repeatedly in this very thread to be even less reliable than that. As Ryu has said, do you believe Terra actually marched through what was then modern day Tokyo using Magitek Armor? Do you believe that Mog auditioned monsters and physically zapped them into the game cartidge? The commercial is all but meaningless, it was there to attract notice and garner sales. The game itself, then the rest of the Compilation that followed, and the published materials such as Ultimanias are all that should be brought in. Commercials are none of these things.

I see the very next thing after that is merchandise. This was off to a poor start already, and now the second step is a stumble as well. This does not bode well for things to come. I love the touch where you conclude that the light streaming down on a figure of Cloud so obviously indicates her and her presence. As if that means anything, when its a friggin' piece of merchandise and not an event from the game, a creator statement from an interview, an entry in an Ultimania... I don't mean to insult, I know you really do find meaning in these things. But its nothing.

Ok, this section is an improvement. It's from Dismantled, which is far out of date as compared to more contemporary guides such as the Ultimanias, but there are actual quotes here with citations and everything. And I see Ultimania quotes just past that. Awesome!

So, the Dismantled quotes here are all about how Cloud immediately sets off to talk to Elmyra and then rescue Aerith after the destruction of Sector 7. It makes the assumption that such a thing is romantic. And I'm sure Cloud would rush off to rescue her for love, no arguments there. It is the ASSUMPTION that his reasoning is for love that damns this one. Aerith was caught and taken away even though Cloud is her bodyguard. He has tried to leave her behind for her own safety and then brought her along anyway when she caught him. He feels responsible for what has happened to her, just as he will shortly feel responsible for her death. Romance works just fine as a motive for Cloud's actions, but duty and friendship work just as well.

The next few bits, some from Ultimanias, some from Dismantled, all indicate Tifa's jealousy. Nowhere does it indicate that Tifa being jealous in any way supports Cloud loving Aerith. It supports only that Tifa has feelings for Cloud. Aerith offerred him a date as payment to be her bodyguard, no mention is given as to whether he actually agreed or just went with the bodyguard gig. The LTD is mostly about answering the question of who CLOUD loves. Showing that Tifa loves him and got jealous of Aerith due to her offer has no real bearing on that question.

Alright, here we have one that actually supports Clerith a little. An Ultimania quote stating "there seems to be something between you two." It took a fair bit of reading through commercials and merchandising to get here, but here it is, what should have been the first line of this essay. I cannot refute this, there was always an attraction between Cloud and Aerith. I can say that attraction does not automatically equate to love. Lets see what else there is to see in this essay that might add more to that.

A CoLSW quote about Aerith loving Cloud, does nothing more to prove anything about Cloud's feelings than Tifa's jealousy did. The essay is a bit outdated, as it refers to koibito as being a word indicating mutual feelings. As many here have pointed out, this is not the case. Aerith is here calling Cloud her beloved, or sweetheart. It gives no indication of Cloud's feelings for Aerith.

And oh dear... here we have Kingdom Hearts being brought into a Compilation of FFVII debate. A game that is in no way part of the Comp, featuring an assortment of characters that do not have the same histories or origins as their original counterparts did. I can see no real reason for this. Besides, Vendel has already spoken on the related creator quote that goes along with that, to great effect.

And now we have more baseless assertions that Aerith WANTING to know the real Cloud somehow means Aerith DOES know the real Cloud. Its been well established that it does no such thing. That would, in fact, be a grave misuse of language if it was so intended. Lets just move on, shall we?

Next up is Cloud comforting Aerith at Cosmo Canyon. Is he including everyone else due to self confidence issues? Or is he doing so because he realizes that they actually ARE there for Aerith, right alongside him? This essay claims the former flat out. It offers no justification for this, as is by now expected.

Let's see.... using Cait Sith's largely unreliable predictions as evidence that Aerith is dear to him. In addition to the Cait Sith issue, this piece too presumes that she is dear to him in a romantic way, rather than the friendly fondness with some attraction that is actually supportable. His proclaiming them to be a perfect match as a couple is also meaningless, how good they would be together does not indicate any intention to do so whatsoever even if he is correct.

Now we're up to using the date sequences, which have no official versions by the admission and even stalwart demands of the very person posting this. That's just silly, and will get repetitive as this is where Aerith makes known that she WANTS to know the real Cloud. It also makes the ridiculous suggestion that the fireworks that end the gondola scene equate to kissing between Cloud and Aerith, ignoring that the fireworks occur on all four dates, including Barret's. Despite that, only Yuffie's portrays any sort of kissing at all.

Next up is the For the One I Love page. We have talked that flat out to death in here, and until Anastar speaks about the points originally raised by Tres I will not be commenting on it further with her.

Ok, gonna cut and paste a bit to reply to a couple things that follow that directly.

a.) It is non-optional for Cloud to say at the end of the game that he thinks he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land. - it is also non-optional for Tifa to express the same desire and Cloud to agree
c.) It is non-optional for Cloud to accept the date as payment for being Aerith's bodyguard. - there is no dialogue at this point to indicate WHAT Cloud makes of this offer, all we know is that it is non-optional for him to be her bodyguard
d.) It is non-optional for Cloud to declare that he's Aerith's bodyguard in front of Tifa. - an event with absolutely no romantic context in and of itself
e.) It is non-optional for Cloud to show a great deal of caring for Aerith during the game. - as well as for Tifa, Barret, Nanaki, hell he goes out of his way to comfort Yuffie if you choose to speak to her after his true self is restored.


More attempts to make Aerith's death romantic rather than simply shocking and tragic follow. We've been over this, and recently, so just roll back through the thread if you missed it.

Here's another Dismantled quote, "Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" ~Cloud's monologue, Death scene, FFVII Dismantled. This is given the entirely false context of him asking what he will do without her. Said false context in place, this is then assumed to be Clerith supporting evidence, showing that Cloud and Aerith had a relationship. In context, it is clearly another step in Cloud's psyche breaking down as he loses his sense of self and becomes Sephiroth's puppet. He is not asking Aerith what to do with OR without her, he is literally asking Aerith to tell him who he is. And as it will turn out over the course of the game, even if she weren't dead he'd be asking the wrong person. Proving who Cloud really is is Tifa's task.

Then there is Cloud sensing Aerith in the FC. I'd explain this as an effect of their dreams being connected when she comes to him and tells him she is leaving to stop Sephiroth alone. That at least has some basis, if their minds were connected for that by some Cetra hocus pocus perhaps the link was still fresh. And Cloud does mention this after waking up from sleeping. It sounds more likely than a deep loving connection.

....

Alright, I;m sorry. Perhaps I should not have tried to respond to this as if it were a post, with or without quoting, since it was not originally intended for such a purpose. I understand that. More importantly, at least to me, is that this is just silly. I mean, it was as enjoyable to debunk this as normal when I started, but... it just goes on and on. Its also giving me an extreme, headache inducing case of deja vu. It's becoming quite intolerable. So let me compress this a bit, since I prefer to finish what I began even if it wasn't my brightest idea.

Ok, so we have multiple paragraphs tying back to Cloud grieving, others trying to console him, etc. These are normal things when anyone close to you dies, let alone is murdered. It does not mean love all on its own, even with phrases like "lost a piece of himself" and the like. Blatant guessing that Cloud's important and personal memory, which he does not elaborate on, is about Aerith over his entire home town and family, which he wanted to avenge BEFORE Aerith died, is also presented. Then there's a montage of people from SE games reaching out their hands to each other, including another Kingdom Hearts mention that tries to connect to Cloti because Sora kinda, sorta resembles Cloud. It is exceedingly silly.

And ya know what, I'm sorry but that's it. Someone else cover the AC/C and onward bits. I've had it for now.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

No. Tifa GETS A CALL from Reno.

Ahhh! I mixed it up >.<

Not 'because of Denzel' alone. He was spending more time with the family because the family made him happy, and he thought it was his penance to care for Denzel.

Wasn't it stated in CoT that Cloud did take himself more time for the family since Denzel was present?

@LL: I thanked your last post, simply because it contained some concessions and compromises with regards to points I had made. We agreed on something. That's rare from either side of this particular debate, though for very different reasons on each side in my eyes.

Thank my post...? What do you mean...?
If someone proves something with clear evidence, then this one is right, isn't one? So one should be agreed since one prove the correctness of the fact he was debating over. So when you proved something, then I admitted that I was wrong and that the point you made was true.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

That quote talked about the time where Aerith was already dead.

Why wouldn't she be able to help him from the Lifestream?

I think it was already stated that flowers are a symbol of Aerith.

I was using it more as an example.
But the flowers are as much symbol of Aerith, as the sword is a symbol of Zack. Why is it so hard to get?

Also, I'd like to say that Cloud is standing near Zacks grave while saying that. So there could be another factor reminding him of Zacks without necessarily being reminded the sword.

Anyway, nice to see your point of view

Same here.

 

[Lady Lifestream]

Why wouldn't she be able to help him from the Lifestream?

The quote was about Cloud opening his heart only to Tifa in the time after FFVII. However, Aerith is already dead at this point, so he can't say that he opens his heart to a person that isn't present in this moment.

But the flowers are as much symbol of Aerith, as the sword is a symbol of Zack. Why is it so hard to get?

Because Aeriths symbol was stated and Zacks not.

 

[Tina Armstrong]

The quote was about Cloud opening his heart only to Tifa in the time after FFVII. However, Aerith is already dead at this point, so he can't say that he opens his heart to a person that isn't present in this moment.

I misunderstood that one in that case. Sorry.
So Cloud can't open his heart to Dead!Aerith, but he can have a relationship with her? Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

Spoiler

JK

Because Aeriths symbol was stated and Zacks not.

I want you to tell me what that sword could be a symbol of through Cloud's eyes, if it's not Zack. Tell me right now.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Are you sure about that? In this case, I would agree with you.

I'm sure. I'll try and find the direct source. In the meantime, if nothing I say meshes with you, then remember that Barret calls Cloud and says 'Tell Marlene I'll see her soon." Highly unlikely for him to do if Cloud has been awol for months and months. I don't see Barret as the type to go super extended periods without communication with his kid or Tifa, so the fact that Barret expects Cloud to be seeing Marlene is indicative of a short time sapn.

Tifa is phoning with Yuffie in the first 15 minutes of the movie.

What? Do you mean her phone call from Reno?

Cloud only hears his answering machine since it was also stated that he didn't answer the phone from the time he left.

And yet she called it. She expected, at the very least, for him to listen to the message. He's still making deliveries, after all. That is, again, not indicative of a loooooong seperation.

Are you sure? Wasn't Tifa saying that Cloud took himself more time to spend with his family because of Denzel?

When Cloud started the delivery service Denzel was not there. I am sure.

She calls him a confused child? You're sure about that? Wasn't this in one of the optional dialogue things the player could choose?

Yes. Sure. And no, the player doesn't get optional dialogue for Aerith.

FFVII Ultimania Omega p.24 and 25.

You might want to look it up instead of claiming that it wasn't said.

Will do. I'm pretty sure--without hunting under my bed--that there's no reference to "Tifa's childish desires to be a princess" or that she never let him into her room.

No offense, I didn't do anything like that to you either.

Yes, you are. You are weaving fabrications like a bs seamstress. It's almost impressive.

Those quote (the one beneath) was used by your side, too, so I think it's valid enough...?

What freaking side?? I hate that mentality. I support the canon narrative. I believe there is enough evidence to make a definitive proclamation that there IS a canon love interest for Cloud and a resulting pairing. Yes, I think Cloti is sexy, but I would support Clerith if the evidence backed it up. FFS, I ship Tifa x Zack. You don't get much more cracktacular than that, so please, inform me what 'side' I'm on again?

It was said that:
* they weren't close
* he was never in her room
* she avoided him her entire childhood until the time of the promise
* she also thought they would have been close because they had been neighbours but admits that this isn't true
So they were not close and likely didn't talk to each other more than once.

Excuse me, my bullshit-o-meter just went off-scale.

Agreed, she sensed that an ambiguous something was wrong with him.

If I ran into someone I knew when I was a kid, that I never spoke to except once, there's no way I could tell if something was 'wrong' versus they're just wacked. She knew Cloud enough to make that distinction.

I didn't refer to the Nibelheim scene, I did refer to her childhood.

No, you referred to memories that confused her because Cloud wasn't supposed to have them. the only memories that he should not have had ws Nibleheim burning, as he wasn't there. At least, she wasn't aware that he was there. So, uh... could you tell me any other memories that conflicted that you may have been referring to?

If Tifa says that she doesn't know what his facial expressions could mean, then I don't think you are to disagree with her.

Tifa says he smiled at her, to reassure her. After there trouble, she wonders if she imagined that reassurance. That is not her misunderstanding facial expressions. that's doubt in the face of a conflicting emotions. Ever been in a long term relationship? Ever fight? You doubt. You wonder. You question how you read the person.

I would like to remark you're calling me "stupid" with the habit of "making up shit out of nowhere" because I thought you did already know the sources since the quote was already brought up that often.

I have not called you stupid. I said stupidity gives me a headache. If you aren't being stupid, then, you can't possibly be the result of my headache. And I will be looking up the quotes--unless Ryu beats me to it--so no worries there.

I see. Convincing, convincing.

Meh. You get the restricted FHS postings. Believe me, I'm very mild now.

You may curse as much as you want unless you do not insult me.

If insulting your argument is insulting you, then I don't know what to tell you.

Don't worry, I'll search for that one. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe not. Just be patient.

Sure.

You're missing the point. I want a woman besides Aerith where all three conditions are applicable.

No, I got your point. I just made one of my own, that really, you can't refute. Common sense SAYS Aerith makes the most sense, but SE and Co. have never declared that to be factually so...so again...no.

Wrong. No one was aware that Sephiroth was alive until the ShinRa episode.

Prove it.

Before I forget: Thank you for not tucking tale and running. Although I don't believe you have a sufficient amount of factual evidence to back up your opinions, I do respect and appreciate you being forthright enough to share them.

ps. tail is misspelled on purpose...in case no one got that....

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Regarding merchandise and promos:

The first indication of Cloud and Aerith's love is given in the official commercial for the game. In that commercial, the word*"Love"*appears over a scene of Cloud laying Aerith to rest along with a voice over saying,*"the story of a love that could never be".

Commercials and trailers often deliberately include information that is never part of the final product. Their only concern is to bait and excite. Accuracy is the last thing on their mind.

They regularly do all of the following:
-major actors do not appear on trailer or only the highest grossing ones do.
-high profile actors/directors/producers are presented as having a larger part than they do.
-trailer shows scenes that do not exist. For video games, entire trailers are made that DO NOT HAPPEN in-game.
-scenes are mixed and remixed out entirely out of context.
-dialogue that never happens
-deliberate misdirection when it comes to romance, and even GENRE. For example, The Village was marketed as a drama/thriller during daytime and then horror after a certain time during the night.

In Assassin's Creed, the trailers are never direct cutscenes of anything. They don't happen in the game. Altair, for example, was shooting a crossbow in the trailer, a weapon that's never in his arsenal in the game proper. This actually drew a number of complaints and requests for a crossbow to appear in-game. The Star Wars old trailers all make you think Leia/Luke = couple. &#8220;The story of a boy, a girl, and a universe&#8221; and all that shit. In Last Airbender, the coolest scene in the trailer is NEVER in the movie &#8211; that's the one where the ships come to get him, all of them shooting fireballs. ETC. ETC.

More examples can be provided by the bucketload, but I think I've made my point. But here's a TV Tropes link for your perusal. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverTrustATrailer

Also, you seem to have very selectively gathered up your merchandise.

keychains

official FFVII playarts booklet

C/T & Z/A matching bases

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Long Essay is Long

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm convinced.

Now if only the essay contained things that hadn't been refuted and disproven a hundred times over...

Really, after over a decade, I'd like to think arguments have evolved. Evidence to re-examine. Concessions to be made. Apparently not...

 

[Celes Chere]

However, Rachel dies and Locke begins to fall in love with Celes who lives.

I was talking about them as a couple and as characters, not about Locke's past girlfriend or anything. You said all couples are happy/perfect, and don't have problems in the FF worlds. That's simply not true when you look at Celes and Locke. And Zidane and Garnet who did have conflicts (emotionally). Just because a couple doesn't get alongsometimes, doesn't mean they aren't a couple or any less of a couple. Especially when the creators SAY they grow closer because of it. Now, I quoted this because I disagree. Locke was already in love with Celes before Rachel died. Otherwise she wouldn't have said "With the one who is NOW in your heart". And you believe Maiden is canon correct? Didn't it say Aerith smiled at Cloud and Tifa like an affectionate Mother, and that Tifa should be the one to take care of Cloud on earth? That's sort of like giving her blessing the same way Rachel did.

Then show me a quote stating that.

Alright... I can assure you that the Buster Sword represents Zack to Cloud.
Also consider this: Cloud never KNEW Angeal... so why would it represent anything but Zack to Cloud?

Before Zack obtained the Buster Sword.

Zack&#8217;s weapon of choice is the enormous Buster Sword. After his demise, it was passed onto Cloud.

[AC] In AC, the Buster Sword is stuck in the ground like a grave marker at the hill where Zack died, and Cloud thinks of Zack as he looks at it.

And like I said before, nothing about Zack and Aeirth is stated after the time of FFVII.

But their quotes state they are destined to be together and they are in an inserparable relationship. Which is why I said the bit about Aerith loving two people. I don't believe that she continues to love Cloud. And things like "destiny" don't just go away.

she still loves Zacks at the time after FFVII since your quotes flatout say that.

I already gave the quotes. The ones about destiny, being inseperable, and why Aerith acts the way she does around Cloud in FFVII... Ifyou really want me to get them AGAIN I will. T__T

@Anastar - All I have to say in response to your essay, is that you know that Sora is in love with Riku, right? He has far more hand reaches with Riku than he does with anyone else.
And- your essay is well written ( I simply don't agree with it as you know) and thank you for sharing it. There's nothing else I have to debate on it though simply because I know others are going to. xD I'll let them handle it.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Concur with Suteki, when in doubt go with the original. I still find it interesting to compare the Translated German to what we know, but what was first written takes precedence for me on the matter.

Also my last post kinda sucked and I am really sorry to all, Anastar included. It was not a worthy response to what you put up.

 

[Alexia Ashford]

@Anastar - All I have to say in response to your essay, is that you know that Sora is in love with Riku, right? He has far more hand reaches with Riku than he does with anyone else.
.

Just gonna go ahead and support this with evidence there.

Spoiler: Irrefutable Proot

 

[Celes Chere]

Suddenly a part of me supports this logic...

 

[Dashell]

Suddenly a part of me supports this logic...

Ahh the days of being a Sora x Riku shipper... man those were the days
They're still a hot couple anyway.

Will do. I'm pretty sure--without hunting under my bed--that there's no reference to "Tifa's childish desires to be a princess" or that she never let him into her room.

As the person who found the quote and partly translated it, I can assure you that this quote does exist. My quotes are all jumbled together in one big SQL file right now, but I'll try to find it for you.

EDIT
here you go:

In those days, Tifa didn't take much notice to Cloud. The reason why she said to him "To be saved by a Hero" was only to satisfy her childish princess desire.

However when the promise was exchanged, at that moment, Cloud became a special existence to her, which later, he now holds a huge position (in Tifa's life).

Don't have anything on the room one though

 

[Ryushikaze]

Just gonna go ahead and support this with evidence there.

Spoiler: Irrefutable Proot

Is that the Crack in Amelia's wall in that image?

Right, quick post on the subject of WHY merch and marketing are bullshit from the ground up and that they do not override the truth of the actual material.

Spoiler: That's no moon, it's a sizable image of a movie poster!

Now, everyone here knows SW right?
Does anyone remember Luke having UBERBUFF muscles, a metallic leg, and holding his lightsaber high above his head, right?
What do you mean he doesn't even use it in the film? What do you MEAN normal leg?
Well, what about Leia's plunging neckline, heaving bosom, and revealed lissom legs?
Huh, Carrie Fischer had a modest outfit, modest chest, and we didn't see any leg until RotJ? But the POSTER SAID...

Now look at those hundreds of X-wings swooping in from the distance!
What's that, you say there were 32 rebel vehicles there, and a third of them weren't even X-wings?

And this is the ORIGINAL POSTER that advertised the film. So it's perfectly analogous to the old FF7 commercials. If a single poster can lie so much about a 2 hour film with a simple and direct story that works entirely on its own merits, just to fill seats, why should we trust a commercial trying to sell us a game?

Further response to come later.

ADDENDUM

Found the Original trailer, even better.
In the FIRST TEN SECONDS, it fails at accurately representing the movie's opening crawl.
At 30 seconds, we've been told a lie about the contents of the story- the 'boy' and the 'girl' have little to do with each other, and the story no more involves the universe than most other space operas. (IE, it's in one).
'Of rebellion and romance'- Not in ANH, it isn't.
'Aliens from a thousand worlds' Pure hyperbole. We don't even see 1000 people in the entire film.
'A billion years in the making' Nuff said.

Quex, what was the original word that got turned into princess, exactly?

 

[Dashell]

&#24403;&#26178;&#12398;&#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12399;&#12289; &#12486;&#12451;&#12501;&#12449;&#12395;&#12399;&#21360;&#35937;&#12398;&#34180;&#12356;&#23384;&#22312;&#12384;&#12387;&#12383;&#12290; &#12381;&#12398;&#24444;&#12395;&#12371;&#12435;&#12394;&#12371;&#12392;&#12434;&#38972;&#12435;&#12384;&#12398;&#12399;&#12289;&#12300;&#12498;&#12540;&#12525;&#12540;&#12395;&#21161;&#12369;&#12425;&#12428;&#12390;&#12415;&#12383;&#12426;&#12301;&#12392;&#12356;&#12358;&#12289; &#24188;&#12356;&#12362;&#23019;&#27096;&#39000;&#26395;&#12434;&#28288;&#12383;&#12375;&#12383;&#12363;&#12387;&#12383;&#12363;&#12425;&#12395;&#12377;&#12366;&#12394;&#12356;&#12290; &#12384;&#12364;&#12289; &#32004;&#26463;&#12434;&#20132;&#12431;&#12375;&#12383;&#12371;&#12398;&#12392;&#12365;&#12434;&#22659;&#12395;&#12289; &#12463;&#12521;&#12454;&#12489;&#12399;&#24444;&#22899;&#12398;&#12288;&#12383;&#12356;&#12394;&#12363;&#12391;&#29305;&#21029;&#12394;&#23384;&#22312;&#12392;&#12394;&#12426;&#12289; &#12375;&#12384;&#12356;&#12395;&#22823;&#12365;&#12394;&#20301;&#32622;&#12434;&#21344;&#12417;&#12390;&#12356;&#12367;

&#23019;&#27096; = princess or also "daughter of a nobleman"


EDIT
Anastar, I will respond to your essay. It will be a good motivator to go through my quotes. It might take me a day or two to get a response up, but I do want to respond to it. As you posted your best evidence here, in return I won't go easy on you either

But thanks for posting that and I'll get started on a response.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Thanks Q. I think my confusion lies in the 'childish princess desire'. I haven't dug out my FFVII crap to look, but I could have sworn my notation was different. I think the misrepresentation here is 'childish' as in shallow. And that's not the case. It's every little girl's fantasy to be a princess and white-knighted and I think that's what the quote is implying. However, I respectfully munch my humble pie and accept that such a quote exists, even if I'm still leery on the translation. (No offense)

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thank you. I was wondering if it was strict himesama or something more complex. And technically it is. It's not desire to be a princess but 'princess wish' which is an odd phrasing now that I think about it. But also entirely in character for a 13 year old girl's romantic fantasies. She wants a Knight in shining armor, and falls for the boy who wants to be one.

Sorta like Sarah and Ingus, no?