The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[I Am Not Me]

I know this is completely random, but may be in topic regarding LTD and Japanese translations.

I remember that one argument constantly used for Clerith is that Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, and this is apparently enough proof of his romantic feelings for her.

While I'm watching this one anime, this scene came up:

Spoiler

He says "kaitekita no wa koko e mune ni kizamu tame nanda" (you can check out the anime itself, it's called "K", episode 8)

Are these "mune ni kizamu" words the same used for the Clerith "etched in his heart" thing? Because as far as I can see, there is nothing romantic about this guy etching a place in his heart.

I'm not good at reading kanji, so I can't compare any kanji. I'm such a failure of a Japanese descendant.

I just want to know if I've found proof that their arguments are as retarded flawed as I believed they were. I know there were previous statements that called this phrase a figure of speech, but to some people they are just statements, so I thought maybe this can be added in the counterargument arsenal or something.

That is, if it's the same phrase at all.

 

[Strangelove]

-The ACC Post Card Book did not use the "engraved in heart" idiom on Zack & Aerith's shared profile; it simply literally said the same thing instead (that he would never forget them)

I was playing the demo of Time Travellers (the Level Five Vita/3DS game) and in the detective's chapter it uses 'engraved in [his] heart' about a comment that his coworker gave him which told the detective that he trusted him even if he doesn't agree with how he handles things all the time.

I am just thought I'd bring that up.

About the onna/josei mistake (I forgot it was josei,) someone was nitpicking it and saying the sentence changed its meaning once I put josei than onna, ignoring the fact that I showed the whole sentence to the Japanese.

But 'josei' and 'onna' are basically the same thing ('josei' is a more polite way of saying it).

クラウドは女の友人であり、恋人であり—-大切なものの象徴であり、守るべき存在だった。

"Cloud is her friend, her koibito, someone important whose existence she must protect"

'Important [things/people]' should be modifying ~の象徴 (symbol of [important people/things]).

 

[Danseru-kun]

"Cloud is her friend, her koibito, someone important whose existence she must protect"
^

That's my honest mistake, they did use the "original translation" (posted below). But that's what's baffling about it.

"Cloud is the woman’s friend, lover (koibito)—-he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect."

Because any with common grammar sense knows that Cloud is a symbol of something important, and an existence she must protect.

Not "important existence"

And even if it is, it's Aerith's feelings. But well like what you guys are saying, why should I be surprised?

 

[Strangelove]

i couldn't take mentioned of tumblr and had to check but wish i hadn't

Spoiler: though one thing i saw (the kids are alright spoilers)

One post talked like Cloud/'Robert' didn't think anything of another grown man and woman considering themselves family without being romantically together. But by the end of TKAA which is what I am assuming this refers to, Evan and Kyrie (who I assume they are talking about) are together. There is a scene of them laying in bed together. If it doesn't say it straight out (I can't remember now if it did or didn't) then it's pretty much implied they are.

Also seeing the actual post that use that Lifestream White quote, it has pretty much taking two words in different clauses and tried to put them together to say that it's exactly like the quotes for other characters like Garnet and Zidane. The other from LW doesn't say Cloud is something important, but that he is a symbol of what is important/dear/precious. (Also I hate the use of the word 'existence' being used like this but it's something that works fine enough in Japanese maybe but in English does anyone actually say that?)

For that matter, the postcard thing called both Zack and Aerith 'irreplaceable existences' (かけがえのない存在, which seemed to have been missing from the previous translation). Irreplaceable, man. That's a big step up from 'important'. I guess Zack and Aerith are into some undead bisexual swinging, the kinky devils.

While I'm watching this one anime, this scene came up:

Spoiler

He says "kaitekita no wa koko e mune ni kizamu tame nanda" (you can check out the anime itself, it's called "K", episode 8)

Are these "mune ni kizamu" words the same used for the Clerith "etched in his heart" thing? Because as far as I can see, there is nothing romantic about this guy etching a place in his heart.

That's the phrasing from the Tifa promise quote, rather than the Aerith DC one (which used 'kokoro').

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The use of "existence" like that in Japanese always comes off as weird to me too, as, no, I don't think any native English speaker would think to phrase it that way. But you are right that it works well enough in Japanese -- I suppose it's a tad more poetic than just saying "person"/"hito"?

Regarding the Kids Are Alright spoilers:

Spoiler

Vits outright says that Kyrie is Evan's girlfriend, which is what prompts that whole "Even though we don't share blood, we are family thing" to begin with. And this is only a few pages before they're in bed together.

 

[I Am Not Me]

i couldn't take mentioned of tumblr and had to check but wish i hadn't

Wait, I'm curious, what's going on in tumblr now? Is Vendel there now too? I wanna see.

That's the phrasing from the Tifa promise quote, rather than the Aerith DC one (which used 'kokoro').

Aww.

I thought it may have used the word "mune" and that the usage of "heart" was just their selective translation at work. Oh well, it doesn't really change anything. Clack is still canon, everyone.

Can I have the romaji of the whole phrase for both Aerith and Tifa please? Thank you kindly.

The use of "existence" like that in Japanese always comes off as weird to me too, as, no, I don't think any native English speaker would think to phrase it that way. But you are right that it works well enough in Japanese -- I suppose it's a tad more poetic than just saying "person"/"hito"?

I always thought that "existence" makes it seem like their importance transcends life and death, but I guess that makes sense if the people being described are dead.

Btw, I recommend K again, it is great. The seiyuu cast is like... an all-star cast. Those cleaning robots are hilarious too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I thought it may have used the word "mune" and that the usage of "heart" was just their selective translation at work.

"Heart" would be a fine translation of that, to be honest. "Mune" is "chest," and where the heart resides.

Can I have the romaji of the whole phrase for both Aerith and Tifa please? Thank you kindly.

Aerith
彼の心に生涯刻まれることとなる古代種の血を引く少女
"Kare no kokoro ni shougai kizamareru koto to naru kodaishu no chi wo hiku shoujo"

Tifa
胸にきざまれたティファとの約束
"Mune ni kizamareta Tifa to no yakusuku"

I always thought that "existence" makes it seem like their importance transcends life and death, but I guess that makes sense if the people being described are dead.

Yeah, I can see that reasoning. But since it's used for people who are alive as well, so I think it must be meant as a more elegant way of saying it.

 

[I Am Not Me]

"Heart" would be a fine translation of that, to be honest. "Mune" is "chest," and where the heart resides.

I'll have to disagree, but not that strongly because that is pretty valid. It's just my own view on the thing. "Mune" has always been concrete sounding compared to the more abstract "kokoro". When one uses "mune", "chest" is a more appropriate translation than "heart" because the word directly means "chest". When "kokoro" is used, I always think it as "heart" or "mind".

What I'm trying to say is, "mune" and "kokoro" aren't easily interchangeable in direct to English translation, just like "kokoro" and "shinzou (also meaning heart)" aren't.

It all still depends on the context.

I didn't make sense, did I?

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't trust any translation coming from them so I'm always suspicious.

Aerith
彼の心に生涯刻まれることとなる古代種の血を引く少女
"Kare no kokoro ni shougai kizamareru koto to naru kodaishu no chi wo hiku shoujo"

Tifa
胸にきざまれたティファとの約束
"Mune ni kizamareta Tifa to no yakusuku"

Thank you. After seeing Aerith's line, I'm reminded of how people try to apply Tifa's koibito line to someone else other than Cloud.

Since Aerith's line doesn't specifically say who this "kare" is, it could be Zack, or Tseng, or Sephiroth, or Johnny. It doesn't necessarily mean it's Cloud.

Just copying how they argue around this issue. Out of context ftw

Yeah, I can see that reasoning. But since it's used for people who are alive as well, so I think it must be meant as a more elegant way of saying it.

You're right too.

This is one of those things that sound weird when put straight into English. Nobody says "important existence" and expects it to sound pretty. But in Japanese, it sounds pretty because it was meant to be read pretty. I don't know how to explain it, but when it's said in Japanese, it just sounds... nice. In English, not so much.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

Aww, but at first I Am Not Me didn't say why the place was important to the dude, maybe something romantic happened there, and hito didn't say if there was any Yaoi in the detective story

Seriously though thanks for the translations hito and Hawkeye, for providing the two different words in "mune" and "kokoro" and explaining them I might have more questions/thoughts on "kokoro" later It wouldn't surprise me if it were possible for kokoro to have/it does have some romantic connectations but then I still/woud still maintain Tifa and Cloud's promise engraved/etched in Cloud's mind is also romantic I suppose it's kind of silly of me wanting/believing them both as romantics but

Thanks everyone for clearing up the confusion about onna/josei and Tifa is Cloud's wife too

Spoiler

Yeah I thought so since I've always found Hawkeye's FAQs/articles/etc to be very logical and fair, taking into account possible Clerith evidences like the various places the Clerith date was used like the offical art cards, the potential validity of the hand reach scene at the end of the original game, and if I remember right Hawkeye even said before in a FAQ something like the original game being ambiguous enough with stuffs like the hand reach scene being there that both Clerith and Cloti could be equally valid or something, which I thought was really cool! My personal experiences with hito, Que and recently Danseru as translators, etc have also been very good too So in my experience peeps here don't just dimiss Clerith or examples provided to them out of hand and/or that Aerith was one of two serious potential romantic love interests for Cloud, I mean peeps acknowledge her validity as a part of the LT which means a lot to me

Spoiler

 

[Vendel]

and if I remember right Hawkeye even said before in a FAQ something like the original game being ambiguous enough with stuffs like the hand reach scene being there that both Clerith and Cloti could be equally valid or something, which I thought was really cool!

I don't remember him ever saying they were "equally valid". What I do remember is Tres being diplomatic. I wonder how diplomatic he is feeling nowadays?

My personal experiences with hito, Que and recently Danseru as translators, etc have also been very good too So in my experience peeps here don't just dimiss Clerith or examples provided to them out of hand and

Of course we give the "clerith" evidence the due it is deserved. Who can forget such standouts as that one US commercial made in 1997 or the concept artwork or even the disc art of Itadaki street special?

/or that Aerith was one of two serious potential romantic love interests for Cloud, I mean peeps acknowledge her validity as a part of the LT which means a lot to me

Aerith was never a serious contender for Cloud's love. Her validity was a red herring that ended on the first disk.

 

[I Am Not Me]

Aww, but at first I Am Not Me didn't say why the place was important to the dude, maybe something romantic happened there

Oops, sorry about that.

Nothing romantic happened there. It's hard to explain without giving any spoilers, so I'll just say nothing about the place was romantic in any sense. The anime doesn't focus on romance either, if that helps.

 

[Sikozu]

Sorry if this has been gone over many times before(well, what hasn't by this point, really?), but I just have a question about the FFVII relationship charts.

Why do some Cleriths use these as evidence that there's nothing romantic between Cloud and Tifa(especially when they also think that they aren't even childhood friends... lol?) No, I'm kidding. That's not my question. I'm just frustrated with the blatant hypocrisy and flip-flopping after caving and reading all that tumblr mess..and comments about it on another site-that-shall-not-be-named...

What I want to know is this: How many charts have there been, and if there are multiple have there been any notable changes from chart to chart? Most importantly, what do the arrows leading between Cloud and Aerith say(both arrows leading pointing only one way and two-way arrows if there are any)?

Obviously, I know the charts aren't final word, I just want to be able to refute silly claims because I'm obsessed with silly things.

 

[Selphie Tilmitt]

I think they say "bodyguard" and "interested in" (Aerith to Cloud) or something

Haha, no worries I Am Not Me, I wasn't really being serious there, especially with the Yaio thing to hito but thanks I appreciate the explanation still

Ahh, sorry if I interpreted your words Hawkeye

Hmm, yeah but all I'm saying is back in '97 with the disc one stuff, or for those taken in by that then or whenever they played the game before the Compilation came out, or before they sampled the Compilation, the rest of the game might have/seem to have been ambigious enough what with Cloud's reaction after Aerith's death "What about us ... What are WE supposed to do?" (to those focused on the fact he'd just told Sephiroth his stupid plan to destroy the world didn't mean a thing, Aerith was gone and him pulling Aerith to him as he says the words "What about us ..."), him feeling her in his heart/soul earlier, Cloud saying he remembers/thinks of Aerith a lot, Cloud remembering Aerith's smile (yes, this was/is from the OG first) ,etc on later discs and of course the hand reach scene and "An answer from the Planet ... the Promised Land ... I think I can meet her there" well it might have all seemed ambigious enough to -suggest- Cloud might have been harbouring feelings for Aerith or in the sense to suggest the game might have been leaning Clerith, especially if the player didn't get the high affection version of the Highwind scene for some reason but did date Aerith if this is possible, and/or didn't pick up on the Tifa LT stuff while playing Or even if they got all of Aerith's stuff, inc the date and best Highwind scene, etc too they might have thought the ending and Aerith's stuff, etc still left it ambigious to suggest both Clerith and Cloti (or as it was back then Cleris/Aeris) were both pretty valid within the game. Some people might not have even known there were different dates at the Gold Saucer with characters other than Aerith/have always gotten the Aerith date without knowing of any others. Etc. So there's all sorts of reasons could be used maybe back then for why people might have thought the game was about Cloud and Aerith, why some people became Cleris/Clerith However '97 yeah!? The past, mang

Once the likes of the Ultimanias and Advent Children/the Compilation -did- come out it explains a lot of stuff like what the special Highwind event was really supposed to mean, that basically Cloud and Tifa were originally going to have sex in the Chocobo stable but they spent the night together under the Highwind instead (with risque meanings!), the translations from the Ultimania, etc about Cloud and Tifa having matching feelings ... lots of stuff Which people didn't have access to originally but yeah. Plus Cloud and Tifa are living together and raising a family now

 

[Danseru-kun]

My personal experiences with hito, Que and recently Danseru as translators, etc have also been very good too So in my experience peeps here don't just dimiss Clerith or examples provided to them out of hand and/or that Aerith was one of two serious potential romantic love interests for Cloud, I mean peeps acknowledge her validity as a part of the LT which means a lot to me

Spoiler

This is one of the comments I love to save somewhere in my PC because it feels so nice when people appreciate what you do. And Aerith being a potential love interest is also mentioned by an interview where it's said that "perhaps it might have gone well with Aerith but she has a huge burden." Even the creators are thinking about the scenario where Aerith ends up with Cloud.

As for Aerith, no doubt she's special to Cloud but SE has always been ambiguous about romance, as if to keep his feelings a mystery, which makes Clerith really interesting for me. Aerith meeting the real Cloud is a mystery. Whether Cloud's "romantic" actions to Aerith is caused by ZaCloud or his own attraction to her is a mystery.

As for Tifa, it's not as ambiguous as Aerith's and outright romantic in many instances... which people insist to be "platonic or one-sided."

Why do some Cleriths use these as evidence that there's nothing romantic between Cloud and Tifa(especially when they also think that they aren't even childhood friends... lol?) No, I'm kidding. That's not my question. I'm just frustrated with the blatant hypocrisy and flip-flopping after caving and reading all that tumblr mess..and comments about it on another site-that-shall-not-be-named...

Well it's the double standard I've always been saying. Anything that sounds romantic for Tifa isn't, but when it's used for Aerith it's automatically romantic. It's an immature and ineffective tactic to tear down Cloud and Tifa's relationship to prove Aerith is the one true love. They're not proving anything and it only annoys people. That kind of interpretation isn't what the neutrals buy. Usually most neutrals I encounter either believes both are canon or Cloti is canon.

 

[Morana]

Personally, I don't care if someone thinks Cloud and Tifa are the worst couple ever and Cloud would be better off with Aerith. What I do mind is some people saying there is no romance between Cloud and Tifa. I mean Cloud said some really mushy stuff to Tifa. And Cloud isn't a mushy type.
Maybe I am in minority but when I first played FFVII Cloud and Tifa seemed very obvious to me and Lifestream sequence just proved what I thought.

 

[Vendel]

What I do mind is some people saying there is no romance between Cloud and Tifa. I mean Cloud said some really mushy stuff to Tifa. And Cloud isn't a mushy type.

Mushy friendship stuff.

Maybe I am in minority but when I first played FFVII Cloud and Tifa seemed very obvious to me and Lifestream sequence just proved what I thought.

That isn't a minority opinion. Even if it was it doesn't matter, because it's the right one.

 

[Morana]

Mushy friendship stuff.

If my friend said some of the mushy stuff Cloud said to Tifa in CoT, I would be confused, very confused.

 

[Vendel]

If my friend said some of the mushy stuff Cloud said to Tifa in CoT, I would be confused, very confused.

C'mon friends say they will succeed at life because they have you and then live with you, build a home with you, adopt children and ask intimate questions while you are sleeping ALL THE TIME.

 

[Morana]

C'mon friends say they will succeed at life because they have you and then live with you, build a home with you, adopt children and ask intimate questions while you are sleeping ALL THE TIME.

Well, mine don't. I guess they are not real friends then.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sorry if this has been gone over many times before(well, what hasn't by this point, really?), but I just have a question about the FFVII relationship charts.
Why do some Cleriths use these as evidence that there's nothing romantic between Cloud and Tifa(especially when they also think that they aren't even childhood friends... lol?) No, I'm kidding. That's not my question. I'm just frustrated with the blatant hypocrisy and flip-flopping after caving and reading all that tumblr mess..and comments about it on another site-that-shall-not-be-named...
What I want to know is this: How many charts have there been, and if there are multiple have there been any notable changes from chart to chart? Most importantly, what do the arrows leading between Cloud and Aerith say(both arrows leading pointing only one way and two-way arrows if there are any)?
Obviously, I know the charts aren't final word, I just want to be able to refute silly claims because I'm obsessed with silly things.

There have been the following charts:

FFVII Ultimania Omega (pp. 218-219)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...lFantasyVIIUltimaniaOmega0218_zps06e1f803.jpg
-Says Aerith and Cloud both "favor" ("koui"/好意) Cloud
-Says Cloud is "contracted as bodyguard" ("body guard wo ukeou"/ボディガードを請け負&#12358 to Aerith
-Says Cloud and Tifa are "childhood friends" ("osanajimi"/幼なじみ)

FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (all page numbers referenced are from the Revised Edition)
For FFVII (pg. 111)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img109.jpg
-No "favors" arrows whatsoever
-Cloud is "contracted as bodyguard" to Aerith again
-Arrow between Cloud and Tifa is "childhood friends" again
-Cloud "works as mercenary for" ("yohei toshite kyouryoku"/傭兵として協&#21147 Tifa

For Advent Children (pg. 123)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img121dos.jpg
-No "favors" arrows
-Cloud's arrow to Aerith is "sense of guilt" ("tsumi no ishiki"/罪の意識)
-Cloud and Tifa are once again "childhood friends"

FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character (pp. 190-191)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffvii001.jpg
-"Favors" arrows from Tifa and Aerith to Cloud
-Cloud and Tifa are "childhood friends" again

Things to note:
-Cloud and Tifa are only described with "childhood friends" on the charts for Before Crisis, Last Order and Crisis Core in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pp. 149, 161 and 165 respectively) -- despite it being established canon that Cloud was in love with her at that time, and that Tifa had developed a crush on Cloud as well:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/bcchart_zps43d49a53.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/lochart_zpsc516fc2c.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ccchart_zpsaba1bcbb.jpg

-Wakka and Lulu are described only as "childhood friends" on FFX's chart from the FF 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania (pp. 326-327), despite getting married shortly after the game ends: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/ffx001.jpg

-Cecil and Rosa are only given mutual "favors" arrows on FFIV's chart from the same book (pp. 80-81), even though they're married at the end: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/CecilKainRosa.jpg

-FFVII's chart from the Ultimania Omega only says that Cid "treats [Shera] cruelly" ("tsuraku ataru"/つらく当た&#12427 even though this isn't true by game's end:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...lFantasyVIIUltimaniaOmega0218_zps06e1f803.jpg

 

[eleamaya]

For Advent Children (pg. 123)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/img121dos.jpg
-No "favors" arrows
-Cloud's arrow to Aerith is "sense of guilt" ("tsumi no ishiki"/罪の意識)
-Cloud and Tifa are once again "childhood friends"

Just wondering what it's said in Zack and Cloud's line and 'lil bit upset why there is no line between Zack and Aerith >_<

And, thanks for the note of another couples, Hawkeye.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You're welcome. Cloud and Zack's line is "one-time best friends" ("katsute no shinyuu"/&#12363;&#12388;&#12390;&#12398;&#35242;&#21451;).

 

[Danseru-kun]

Again, in the Evans and Kyrie parallelism to Cloti, can someone post the dialogue betweed Cloud and Evans at the end of the novel where they say, "they're the same raising a kid and all?"

I heard from someone that what Cloud knows that Evan and Kyrie are not a couple and just raising kids platonically, so it can be said he considers his relationship with Tifa to be that way. Is is true that Cloud thinks the two are platonic?

 

[Vendel]

Again, in the Evans and Kyrie parallelism to Cloti, can someone post the dialogue betweed Cloud and Evans at the end of the novel where they say, "they're the same raising a kid and all?"

I heard from someone that what Cloud knows that Evan and Kyrie are not a couple and just raising kids platonically, so it can be said he considers his relationship with Tifa to be that way. Is is true that Cloud thinks the two are platonic?

I believe this sums it up nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-G0bkl8MQ

Although you do have to laugh that everything Cloud and Tifa do is "platonic friendship". Something tells me that before AC came out the people making that argument were saying Cloud would never even live with Tifa, let alone help her raise two kids.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cloud knows Evan and Kyrie are a couple. He had just been told that during the "We may not share blood, but we are family. The same as you" conversation.