The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

[Octo]

@ Quex: Except on Disc 1 he wasn't entirely himself, and his interactions with her aren't markedly different from his interactions with Tifa. I don't see how the events of disc 1 relate to Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC. So how can we use that as a measure of how Cloud/Aerith would have gone?

@The DoC argument. Ok DoC wasn't about Cloud and Tifa, but I get that it would have been nice fan service to see something happen between them. A fucking hug or something. (yes yes we know the Japanese don't tell stories properly are more subtle in their storytelling) Honestly I think it was deliberate, they're fully aware of the LTD and so they try not to alienate people. Thats just my opinion.

But something I can't put down to 'subtle storytelling' if we're expected to believe Cloud loved Aerith, why no big reunion in AC? Your girlfriend dies, and then you meet her again and just sort of stand there? Wouldn't you embrace her? Even if you 'felt guilty' surely you'd try and hug her and beg her forgiveness? That whole scene between Cloud and Aerith in AC doesn't make any sense if Cloud has 'undying love'.

 

[Dashell]

^Except on Disc 1 he wasn't entirely himself, and his interactions with her aren't markedly different from his interactions with Tifa

Tbh I'm getting tired of this argument... yeah Cloud wasn't himself, but I really do believe what he felt was genuine. I think to say "Well Disc 1 doesn't count because Cloud wasn't himself."... is just really kind of silly. If that's the case, Cloud remembering the promise, and helping Tifa and what not should also not count

 

[I Am Not Me]

Sorry, Quebito. I didn't intend make it into an argument, I just got a bit pissy because of how he referred to Akai Hana and Dagger. As if they were some kind of insignificant worm not worth his time, but he insists that we're the only ones who are mean and nasty.

Not to mention his repeated jabs at Danseru and everyone else.

You can also add this:

As usual, you pop your head in to contribute nothing to the discussion or topic at hand.

To the pissy list.

Prince Lex is right, however. The reason people debate with you like this is because your posts do lack integrity and honesty. You have, time and time again, ignored, brushed off, and ridiculed valid arguments by numerous people. You have refused to accept other views than your own, and when faced with enough evidence that you are wrong, you try to distract from the topic at hand. I haven't seen you even consider the idea that you may be wrong in at least one thing. Not to mention the other things like changing your opinions and cherry picking quotes. As well as, and I have mentioned this as your primary sin, your tendency to paint all the characters besides Aerith as either extremely negatively or just as tools for proving Clerith.

I said this once and I'll say it again: I don't care what your view is. Even if you were the most hardcore Cloti I will still treat you as I do now if your debating attitude is the same. So will everyone else here.

 

[Octo]

@Quex: That's not what I am saying though, he's not entirely himself. Some of those jovial elements are Zack's personality. Cloud himself can be a mopey little git. Let's not forget that Aerith herself wanted to meet the real Cloud.

I'm saying if we're going to use disc one as a barometer for how Clouds relationship would go with Aerith or Tifa, then compare C/T on disc1 to C/T in AC. Where is the correlation?


The only difference would be if Aerith had lived, then Cloud in AC presumably wouldn't be feeling guilty - though I'm sure he'd find something to beat himself up over. If Tifa had died instead.....we'd probably have the same situation in reverse.

 

[Lex]

Then don't debate with me.

Or, on the flipside of this, you could tell us why you continue to ignore the rebuttals made against you, why you want to debate with a bunch of people who are - in your own words - "personally attacking you", and why if it bothers you that much, you try to stir up a reaction in the people here by pretending you're surprised when your dishonest behaviour hasn't exactly wrought the best reaction from people.

You've already stated, over and over again, that you think my posts lack integrity. WE GET IT. Why do you insist on beating a dead horse?

Because you're continuing to both miss the point and misrepresent me, as well as pretend that the biggest beater-of-dead-horses in this thread is not you.

Actually, what we've been discussing is very different than past discussions I've had in this thread. But I wouldn't expect you to know because you don't post in this thread because you care about the LTD, you post in this thread to personally attack me. Maybe that says something about *YOUR* integrity.

I read every single post in this thread, I learned to do that a long time ago.

Quit saying I'm personally attacking you, because I'm not. If I was going to personally attack you, I'd do it directly and I'd fucking admit to it.

 

[BlankBeat]

Still working on Hawk's response...but I keep getting distracted.

But something I can't put down to 'subtle storytelling' if we're expected to believe Cloud loved Aerith, why no big reunion in AC? Your girlfriend dies, and then you meet her again and just sort of stand there? Wouldn't you embrace her? Even if you 'felt guilty' surely you'd try and hug her and beg her forgiveness? That whole scene between Cloud and Aerith in AC doesn't make any sense if Cloud has 'undying love'.

TBH, I found this very romantic.

In FFVII they were never able to make contact, but in AC they were.

Holding hands, especially between two people that have a romantic bond like Cloud and Aerith, is always considered romantic. SE also considers this scene in AC a "homage".

And although imagery is always subjective, I can't help but think common sense suggests this is a romantic piece of imagery. But that could just be my Clerith goggles talking.

Oh, and Cloud having Aerith's flowers on his desk also seemed romantic, too.

--------------------

Tbh I'm getting tired of this argument... yeah Cloud wasn't himself, but I really do believe what he felt was genuine. I think to say "Well Disc 1 doesn't count because Cloud wasn't himself."... is just really kind of silly. If that's the case, Cloud remembering the promise, and helping Tifa and what not should also not count

This argument has been around forever, and its primary purpose is to discredit the Clerith ship.

I've said this before and maybe I'm not explaining it well, but obviously Cloud still harbors feelings from when he wasn't completely himself. So if the real!Cloud values what happened while he wasn't completely himself, shouldn't this entire argument disappear? Does that make sense?

--------------------

Not to mention his repeated jabs at Danseru and everyone else.

My jabs are usually in response to being personally attacked. Not saying it's right, but I'm usually not the instigator.

My repeated jabs at Danseru is because she used optional evidence while dismissing optional evidence that turned out to be canon. In several of her posts she pointed out that the evidence I was using was optional, while in the same breathe using optional evidence. She has yet to apologize for her obvious hypocrisy and shady behavior.

EDIT: I thought I was talking to Link in Pajamas. With so many people attacking me, I get confused So this last part isn't relevant for you, I Am Not Me.

Funny that you say I never acknowledge that I could be wrong, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you're dead wrong about the FFIX cameo. Almost everyone that has attacked me for something has been guilty of the same crime at one point or another -- but I don't really feel like spending my time focusing on this TBH.

 

[BlankBeat]

Or, on the flipside of this, you could tell us why you continue to ignore the rebuttals made against you,

People have ignored plenty of my rebuttals. Why am I held to a different standard? Anyway --

Sometimes I ignore rebuttals because I simply don't have the time or energy to respond to several people who are all making the same exact point. Everyone accuses me of saying the same thing over and over again, but part of the reason is because I'll have several posters who are all saying the same exact thing.

I also ignore rebuttals because people personally attack me in their rebuttals.

Is there a particular rebuttal you want me to address...?

why you want to debate with a bunch of people who are - in your own words - "personally attacking you",

I want to debate here because I'm interested in the LTD, so I try to ignore the personal attacks as best I can.

Quit saying I'm personally attacking you, because I'm not. If I was going to personally attack you, I'd do it directly and I'd fucking admit to it.

Saying I lack integrity is a personal attack. Call it a "truthful" observation all you want, but it is still a personal attack.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

To *YOU* DoC is a non-issue. We simply have a difference of opinion.

To me, it is *VERY* telling that a company that is not shy about including random cameos and references, decided not to reference Cloud and Tifa's romance in a game that directly relates to FFVII and AC. In fact, SE has never shown Cloud and Tifa in a romantic fashion after the HAHW scene.

Others would know better than I, but I am pretty sure somebody from Square come out and said that Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

Personally, I think it would be totally out of character to show Cloud and Tifa being romantic together. For one thing, Cloud doesn't strike me as a very "romantic" character. His way of showing a woman he loves her is not to bring her flowers and take her out to dinner, but to fix her broken kitchen cupboard without being asked. They both seem like really private people who would not be into PDAs at all. They have a unique relationship that can't be neatly stereotyped with a few cliches.

Plus, I really doubt whether anyone in SE ever sat down at any point in the design of the Compilation and said "We really have to use this game to clear up the LTD thing once and for all." That's not what they're about and not what they're interested in.

 

[Octo]

Still working on Hawk's response...but I keep getting distracted.


TBH, I found this very romantic.

In FFVII they were never able to make contact, but in AC they were.

Holding hands, especially between two people that have a romantic bond like Cloud and Aerith, is always considered romantic. SE also considers this scene in AC a "homage".

Blank, read that back again. Why have you said especially? "Holding hands is always considered romantic?" What does this mean for Barret and Dyne?


So, for the sake of argument I'm going to run with this. In the OG, it becomes Tifa's hand. Is that romantic then? Don't Cloud and Tifa have a romantic bond? (I don't find that scene romantic between either girl, they were trying to pull him out of a hole!)

Tbh in the OG it was pulling on the heartstrings, I think the player is meant to feel like 'Yay! Aerith is alive again!'

And although imagery is always subjective, I can't help but think common sense suggests this is a romantic piece of imagery. But that could just be my Clerith goggles talking.

I agree that it is subjective Blank. But that isn't what I was getting at.

You were saying DoC and AC fails to show any romantic interaction between Cloud and Tifa. I'm saying AC fails to show any romantic interaction between Cloud and Aerith.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Cloud's reaction to seeing Aerith again in AC is appropriate response from a man who - according to you - loved Aerith and was devastated by her loss? I would really like an answer to this please.


It seems the C/A argument changes from 'he loves Aerith' to 'He loves both but he loves Aerith more'

If we look at AC and DoC I think a better argument would be 'He loves neither'

 

[Sprites]

BB, then I have a question for you. I've never personally attacked you but I have gotten annoyed at some of the stuff you've written, I debated with you on the Kingdom Hearts issue many pages back to which you never responded back to my posts and then 3 pages back I mentioned why your idea that Cloud only cares about Aerith's involvement during the Don Corneo scenes wasn't true, and yet on both occasions you've completely ignored my posts and said nothing to debate the issue with me.

You can't have ignored my last post because you responded to something else 2 posts after it on the same page, so I want to know why you won't debate with me.

Sometimes I ignore rebuttals because I simply don't have the time or energy to respond to several people who are all making the same exact point

My response about the Don Corneo scene was something that no one had yet picked up on in regards to the script and I mentioned that, yet you haven't responded back to me on this. I drop into the LTD to post something if I feel there's something that no one has picked up on or if there's something I feel needs said that no one HAS said before, so why haven't you responded to me?

I'm not trying to attack you here but I'm just saying that, someone newer to posting in the LTD thread comes in with a new point about something that people have been debating and yet you've chose not to respond to my post, even though it's something you could have easily debated back to me, the others obviously don't feel a need to respond back because they agree on this point, but my point is an argumentive factor of why Cloud's concern for Aerith is not romantic and merely logical.

I am agog! I am aghast!

He doesn't want her involved in AVALANCHE business, confronting the big Don in a fucking brothel. It takes a special breed of delusional to take it as anything else. Or, you know, flat out denial as the entire thing is a save Tifa mission and the staff pretty much say so even if you butcher the script to death. Of course, we also cherry pick when we want to use staff comments and when we want to use the script itself so....

Ummmm, was that a potshot at me and if so why? I ask because you quoted a part of my post and I don’t really understand what you’re getting at with that response. I know he doesn't want her involved for that reason too but I was also pointing out why any concern he does show for Aerith is logic rather than romance and why he doesn't need to be as concerned for Tifa.

 

[BlankBeat]

BB, then I have a question for you. I've never personally attacked you but I have gotten annoyed at some of the stuff you've written, I debated with you on the Kingdom Hearts issue many pages back to which you never responded back to my posts and then 3 pages back I mentioned why your idea that Cloud only cares about Aerith's involvement during the Don Corneo scenes wasn't true, and yet on both occasions you've completely ignored my posts and said nothing to debate the issue with me.

My answer is simple: I really don't want to start a debate with someone I've never really debated with while I'm debating with like 193456748373 other people.

But if you want, I will take a look at your posts and try to get around to them.

TBH, and this is not directed towards you or your post, I think I've done a pretty damn good job at responding to shit considering all of my posts get responded to by like 193456748373 different people.

 

[Sprites]

Forgive me but now I am going to get personal.

I really don't want to start a debate with someone I've never really debated with

Wow...just wow...hard to believe that one sentence could be so belitting to me...you know what don't even bother responding to my previous posts then because despite the fact I've brought up some new points on stuff discussed already...I'm obviously a waste of time for you....imagine how new debaters wanting to come in here to make a point with you must feel right now, are you like that with all new debaters then or just debaters who don't see your way of thinking.

It's clear you don't want to debate at all...you really are a troll of the highest form. You want to rile people up and you love it, here's someone here who had a new point to debate with you and yet you'd rather make insults at the people who've shot down and proven your old points to be false several times. You'd rather do this than spend actual creative time debating a new point...congratulations BlankBeat you've mastered the art of HOW NOT TO DEBATE!

 

[eleamaya]

And although imagery is always subjective, I can't help but think common sense suggests this is a romantic piece of imagery. But that could just be my Clerith goggles talking.

I don't mind you have Clerith goggles, BB, 'cause I also simply have goggles by seeing Zack and Aerith walking to the light together. To me, past couple *reunited in death* like that is romantic piece of imagery. Make sense? We have rights to have preference of the pairing we like.

I only have problems if your interpretation by your goggles 'force' us to accept it as canon.

Also. THIS.

Oh, and Cloud having Aerith's flowers on his desk also seemed romantic, too.

Just look at the same daisies, Clack is romantic then!!!

Oh, okay, I'll be serious. Since Cloud cherishes all the dears to him, I see it as he includes both Zack and Aerith (flower symbolize Aerith and it's taken from Zack's grave) as his companions/comrades/party members/family same as the livings in the picture.






Ah, btw, you haven't responded the reciprocal quotes I ask.

 

[I Am Not Me]

My repeated jabs at Danseru is because she used optional evidence while dismissing optional evidence that turned out to be canon. In several of her posts she pointed out that the evidence I was using was optional, while in the same breathe using optional evidence. She has yet to apologize for her obvious hypocrisy and shady behavior.

Sorry to point this out but, you have done this on numerous occasions as well.

 

[Danseru-kun]

Aww my poor strawman is taking it all I feel bad for it

 

[Ryushikaze]

When you say no one has discounted that Cloud loved Aerith, well, apparently you haven't read Ryu's posts.

You certainly haven't. What I argue, since you need everything very clearly spelled out for you in small words, is that Cloud and Aerith DID NOT HAVE A ROMANCE and that whatever feelings he had for Aerith did not compare to the feelings he always had for Tifa. I don't argue he did not like her or cared for her. What I argue is that it's not the ZOMFG romance you pull out your ass.

Huh? I'm pretty sure Hawk agrees that the FFIX cameo is a reference to Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship.

If it is, it's mocking it.

Not only did you question my integrity with your last post, but you refuse to acknowledge the evidence I provided in support of the FFIX cameo being a reference to Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship.

You have no integrity. There is no question here, there is only the truth.

If you don't want to debate with me, is your sole purpose simply to insult me?

What we want, BB, is for you to be honest. With us, with yourself, with your evidence, about your real intentions, everything.

Yeah but who cares what that weirdo thinks?

I know, right? Ryu is retard.



Katherine>>>>>>Catherine

Was a shitty attempt at a fix; but I did the inevitable!

Wait, you're trying to tease me because of my laziness in changing my Avatar off of Trisha/ Ishtar?
I know you're doing it in jest, Quex, but Glass houses and stones.


Oh, and BB, you're not really debating all that many people. You're mostly ignoring us and throwing copy pasta at us. It's not sticking.

 

[Master Bates]

Re: C/A hand reach scene in AC/C (Non-LTD related)

I remember once having a short correspondence with Splintered about this and I'm not gonna lie. I honestly thought it was Aerith giving Cloud the 'fury brand'.

Because think of it this way: before the hand relay scene, Cloud used 'braver' on Bahamut, thus, his limit bar is emptied. Bahamut got up, flew, and Cloud followed suit via hand relay by his comrades with Aerith the last one to lend a hand (hah!) and Cloud destroyed Bahamut with a MOTHERFUCKING CLIMHAZZARD right after. Now think, there was no way Cloud could've refilled his limit bar from within such a short time without obtaining damage, unless... YES, FURY BRAND! So yes, that was Aerith giving Cloud 'fury brand'. That explains the 'green effect' in that scene... THAT WAS LIFESTREAM POWER (lol sorry, my FFVII terminology is too rusty I can't even remember what it's called) TRANSFERRED FROM AERITH TO CLOUD, thereby enabling him to use 'climhazzard'!

IT JUST FITS!

I'm not trying to discount the significance and poignancy of that scene, no, I'm not. But maybe I was one of the few (assuming there are any) who approached that scene with a gamer's perspective. In fact, it wasn't just that scene alone. I was watching the film with a gamer's perspective. That's why there were a few things in the movie that bothered me because it's inconsistent with the game's world (e.g. Cloud traveling by bike to get to the Ancient City when in the game it wasn't that easy to get there). I'm sure there're other factors that I found inconsistent with the game, but I can't remember them for now and I can't be bothered.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

@ Sprites: No, bb, I was agreeing with you. Sorry, I write these on the fly :/

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I'm gonna spell out what many people, Lex in particular, have tried to get across BB. I'm going to be much less polite in my phrasing than they, in the hopes that you get what I'm saying from the extra force of the wording, and also to help you see how gentle they were being by comparison (and thus not attacking you).

Stop fucking lying all the time, and people will stop calling you a fucking liar. Its as simple as that.

But, I gotta once more renew my call to just shut BlankBeat out in the cold and let him spank it to pink imagery all on his own. As Tres pointed out, he can be surprisingly intelligent and make good points when he wants to... so the rest of this crap we see constantly? Trolling. It has to be. This person is a troll, and we are feeding them. We should stop.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that after the HAHW scene, SE has only portrayed Cloud and Tifa platonically. Although there is circumstantial evidence that may lead some to believe they are in a relationship, SE has decided, INTENTIONALLY, not to portray them as explicitly romantic in either AC or DoC. That is extremely weird and strange, especially for a company that makes romantic references all over the place -- even in games that are un-realted to each other.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

LOL
Hey, look, I found something that summarizes this entire thread in one picture:

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

And now I love OWD.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, I know I probably have called BlankBeat dishonest more than anyone else here, but at this point we've got a couple pages just about him and integrity. It's arguably relevant to bring up while responding to his points, but now the topic has shifted to completely being about him -- so much so that he's put off responding to posts about the actual topic.

Everyone is just taking shots now, him included. We need to stop. I'll try to keep my own advice in mind on this one. Someone let me know if I don't stick to it.

 

[Unlucky]

It goes with the territory of this site.

Ahh, the classic TLS insult. That this is a den of mean Clotis with a reputation of tearing anybody who ships Clerith to shreds. You and your sockpuppets "friends" can spread this bullshit how many times you want. Your "arguments" speak for themselves, and anybody who doesn't give two shits about a fucking love triangle in an RPG with barely any romance in it could easily find out how unbiased this site truly is.

Nice try with your formality and whatnot, but that wouldn't stop people from noticing and calling you out on your intellectual dishonesty and rudeness in this 'debate'. You're not dealing with fools here.

edit: ninja'd by Tres. I stand by my point though.

 

[Aerobalance]

My repeated jabs at Bridget is because he used optional evidence while dismissing optional evidence that turned out to be canon. In several of her posts he pointed out that the evidence I was using was optional, while in the same breathe using optional evidence. He has yet to apologize for her obvious hypocrisy and shady behaviour for posing as a woman.

Fix'd

 

[Shademp]

Perhaps it is time to resume the "don't-dignify-BlankBeat-with-responses" plan?

But, I gotta once more renew my call to just shut BlankBeat out in the cold and let him spank it to pink imagery all on his own. As Tres pointed out, he can be surprisingly intelligent and make good points when he wants to... so the rest of this crap we see constantly? Trolling. It has to be. This person is a troll, and we are feeding them. We should stop.

Everyone is just taking shots now, him included. We need to stop. I'll try to keep my own advice in mind on this one. Someone let me know if I don't stick to it.

EVERYONE. FOLLOW THE PLAN. PLEASE.