The most annoying fandom assumptions that make no sense and won't die.

[Smaddy]

With the whole Jenova cells thing... okay, so Lucrecia is the only known person to still have Jenova cells and still in existence (she's not technically alive like a normal person would be). I was just curious about people's thoughts on this:

So throughout FF7 you go around "defeating" pieces of Jenova (Birth, Death, Life, etc), and then there's the final showdown with Jenova in the Crater.

But isn't it true that Jenova can't be destroyed, which is why the Ancients could only freeze her? And even if she is separated into pieces, she can rejoin (Reunion Theory)?

They don't ever really say specifically what's in the Jenova box in AC - they keep calling it a head, but it's definitely not in a box so small - but the fact that they could go in and retrieve a piece of Jenova means that her physical body is still there. So doesn't that mean it's possible for her to regenerate/rejoin her parts?

 

[Tennyo]

^If this were true, then why wouldn't the SHM just join with her other parts and bring back Sephiroth in the Crater?

 

[Vossler]

^If this were true, then why wouldn't the SHM just join with her other parts and bring back Sephiroth in the Crater?

You know when I watched the movie I thought of that myself. Why didn't they converge once Kadaj got a hold of Jenova's head. I thought the whole point of the SHM was to have Sephiroth return once the head was found. Why is it that when Kadaj placed Jenova on his chest just he transformed into Sephiroth and the others weren't even in play.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I seriously hope they don't do any more installments. I think they have stretched the story long enough. More would mean boredom.

The only thing they should do is a remake of the original FFVII ("Keep wishing," I often tell to myself)

You'd rather they left the ending of DC hanging then?

Not saying I wouldn't be fine with that. Just asking. I don't often see people say it.

With the whole Jenova cells thing... okay, so Lucrecia is the only known person to still have Jenova cells and still in existence (she's not technically alive like a normal person would be). I was just curious about people's thoughts on this:

So throughout FF7 you go around "defeating" pieces of Jenova (Birth, Death, Life, etc), and then there's the final showdown with Jenova in the Crater.

But isn't it true that Jenova can't be destroyed, which is why the Ancients could only freeze her? And even if she is separated into pieces, she can rejoin (Reunion Theory)?

They don't ever really say specifically what's in the Jenova box in AC - they keep calling it a head, but it's definitely not in a box so small - but the fact that they could go in and retrieve a piece of Jenova means that her physical body is still there. So doesn't that mean it's possible for her to regenerate/rejoin her parts?

The interview with Nojima, Nomura and Naora in the AC Prologue book said it wasn't a head -- just random remains -- but was called that for simplicity's sake, as I recall.

Anyway, if there was anything else left, like Tennyo said, the SHM could have just brought Sephiroth back and wouldn't have needed to chase the Turks.

The implication was definitely that all that remained of JENOVA from the Northern Crater was taken by the Turks at the beginning of the film.

You know when I watched the movie I thought of that myself. Why didn't they converge once Kadaj got a hold of Jenova's head. I thought the whole point of the SHM was to have Sephiroth return once the head was found. Why is it that when Kadaj placed Jenova on his chest just he transformed into Sephiroth and the others weren't even in play.

Nomura said (hate how that always sounds like I'm quoting scripture) that they had thought about having all three of them unite into one body but decided it would look too ridiculous.

 

[Vossler]

Nomura said (hate how that always sounds like I'm quoting scripture) that they had thought about having all three of them unite into one body but decided it would look too ridiculous.

I suppose you have a point. But I guess in the long run is what happened to Loz and Yazoo. You see them fighting with Reno and Rude. Then chasing Cloud on the highway. The tunnel get's blown up. After that they magically appear and shoot Cloud. So if they were technically one being, why didn't they dematerialize once Kadaj was taken into the life stream. The way I look at it, they were all separate and either one of the three had the capabilities of transforming into Sephiroth.

 

[Dashell]

Because if they deteriorated with Kadaj, who would have shot Cloud from behind?

 

[Vossler]

Because if they deteriorated with Kadaj, who would have shot Cloud from behind?

Well no one would have. It was an obvious twist. I thought it was rather creative. What ever happened to Jenovas head. It looked as if Sephiroth couldn't be whole with out Kadaj. He just vanishes and Kadaj reappears. Could it be he couldn't be sustained without the other two?

 

[Tennyo]

Sephiroth created the SHM out of memories in the Lifestream. He infused the with his will and gave them the drive to find Jenova cells. I don't know if they needed ALL of Jenova, just SOME of her cells, and maybe any of them could do it, or maybe just Kadaj. But I wonder, if that maybe once created they could remain sustained and only deteriorated because of the rain?

Or, also, they do pop up IMMEDIATELY, after Kadaj dies, and they are deteriorating, so there, problem solved. lol

 

[Vossler]

Sephiroth created the SHM out of memories in the Lifestream. He infused the with his will and gave them the drive to find Jenova cells. I don't know if they needed ALL of Jenova, just SOME of her cells, and maybe any of them could do it, or maybe just Kadaj. But I wonder, if that maybe once created they could remain sustained and only deteriorated because of the rain?

Or, also, they do pop up IMMEDIATELY, after Kadaj dies, and they are deteriorating, so there, problem solved. lol

I'm wondering also, that if Sephiroth would have been hit by that rain, would he have started to disappear also or was that just reserved for the remnants. There seems to be alot of holes in the story and not much is told of who or what the SHM were, Meaning parts of Sephiroth in means of strength, will and what not. That and Loz in his ability to transport himself like he did. Why didn't he utilize that when he was being rained on.

 

[Glaurung]

You'd rather they left the ending of DC hanging then?

Not saying I wouldn't be fine with that. Just asking. I don't often see people say it.

I say that I don't wish for more installments because I fear it would fall into the trap of MGS saga, which story is more ridiculous the more installments they release.

But... darn, having Genesis as a main character is too tempting. I can hear him saying just after waking up: "The world needs a new singer, I mean, hero!!"

With the whole Jenova cells thing... okay, so Lucrecia is the only known person to still have Jenova cells and still in existence (she's not technically alive like a normal person would be). I was just curious about people's thoughts on this:

So throughout FF7 you go around "defeating" pieces of Jenova (Birth, Death, Life, etc), and then there's the final showdown with Jenova in the Crater.

But isn't it true that Jenova can't be destroyed, which is why the Ancients could only freeze her? And even if she is separated into pieces, she can rejoin (Reunion Theory)?

They don't ever really say specifically what's in the Jenova box in AC - they keep calling it a head, but it's definitely not in a box so small - but the fact that they could go in and retrieve a piece of Jenova means that her physical body is still there. So doesn't that mean it's possible for her to regenerate/rejoin her parts?

It always come to my mind the case of Cell from Dragon Ball Z when speaking of the Reunion

On a serious note, I have clear that what is inside that crystal is Lucrecia's spirit, but I'm not so sure about her body. She herself said that her old herself "crumbled away a long time ago" so I'm not very sure about what I said before.

Sephiroth created the SHM out of memories in the Lifestream. He infused the with his will and gave them the drive to find Jenova cells. I don't know if they needed ALL of Jenova, just SOME of her cells, and maybe any of them could do it, or maybe just Kadaj. But I wonder, if that maybe once created they could remain sustained and only deteriorated because of the rain?

Or, also, they do pop up IMMEDIATELY, after Kadaj dies, and they are deteriorating, so there, problem solved. lol

I think the three of them could do it, but Kadaj was the fittest one to do it.

. Why didn't he utilize that when he was being rained on.

Maybe because he already knew that everything was lost for them: Kadaj was no more, like those parts of Jenova. Or maybe the three of them depended one each other to stay alive, so if one died, the other two perished.

 

[Vossler]

Maybe because he already knew that everything was lost for them: Kadaj was no more, like those parts of Jenova. Or maybe the three of them depended one each other to stay alive, so if one died, the other two perished

Right. It makes sense However what was the point of them coming around if Sephiroth was able to come back anyway. The thing with Kadaj is that he really didn't die. Aerith brought him into the lifestream. So would that mean Loz and Yazoo would have done the same?

 

[Glaurung]

Right. It makes sense However what was the point of them coming around if Sephiroth was able to come back anyway. The thing with Kadaj is that he really didn't die. Aerith brought him into the lifestream. So would that mean Loz and Yazoo would have done the same?

Yes, he did!!! That is precisely the way all life ends in that world: returning to the Lifestream.


Speaking of fandom things that annoy us:

I hate when people say that Cloud is gay based on the fact that he doesn't jump on Tifa's bones as soon as he has her on sight.

People believing that Hojo has been the same old geezer during thirty years, and that Lucrecia abandoned Vincent for a man of 60 (I blame developers' lazyness)

People taking fanficts as if they were canon.

 

[Vossler]

Well I looked at it this way. In away Kadaj didn't die. The lifestream is still living. Just spiritually.

Heh, I know about that. It's like Oh my GOSH CLOUD IS GAY CAUSE HE DIDN"T DO TIFA! ALthough this would be a good discussion in another certain thread, Who says he didn't.
Well at the time of Hojo he was a bit younger, I believe they based it on like 20 years later. (I could be wrong though) But yeah Sounds like Lucrecia was cheating on Vincent and Hojo took him out of the picture completely.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, he did!!! That is precisely the way all life ends in that world: returning to the Lifestream.


Speaking of fandom things that annoy us:

I hate when people say that Cloud is gay based on the fact that he doesn't jump on Tifa's bones as soon as he has her on sight.

People believing that Hojo has been the same old geezer during thirty years, and that Lucrecia abandoned Vincent for a man of 60 (I blame developers' lazyness)

People taking fanficts as if they were canon.

Yes
Cloud and Tifa under the Highwind

But the Hojo thing bugs the hell out of me and is the thing I hate most about DoC - why couldn't they have made him young, attractive, and crazy? Then you could see Lucrecia going for him. Mind you, Vincent was the wimpiest Turk ever.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

But the Hojo thing bugs the hell out of me and is the thing I hate most about DoC - why couldn't they have made him young, attractive, and crazy? Then you could see Lucrecia going for him. Mind you, Vincent was the wimpiest Turk ever.

I never thought Lucrecia was attracted to Hojo - or did I miss something? Have I been perpetuating an annoying fandom assumption by thinking that Lucrecia went to Hojo because he was not Vincent, and not because she was genuinely attracted to the mad professor?

 

[Glaurung]

Well at the time of Hojo he was a bit younger, I believe they based it on like 20 years later. (I could be wrong though) But yeah Sounds like Lucrecia was cheating on Vincent and Hojo took him out of the picture completely.

I wouldn't afirm that. From what I could see in DoC, Lucrecia wasn't on any formal relationship with anyone before the experiment. Just at the end she hersele tell Vincent that she at last realized "her true feelings". But yes, Hojo took him out because Vincent was a hindrance.

Yes
Cloud and Tifa under the Highwind

But the Hojo thing bugs the hell out of me and is the thing I hate most about DoC - why couldn't they have made him young, attractive, and crazy? Then you could see Lucrecia going for him. Mind you, Vincent was the wimpiest Turk ever.

Haha! Oh, the famous Highwind scene! How I wish they hadn't deleted that scene of Cloud and Tifa coming out of the Chocobo stable after rolling in the hay all night long *sigh* But even with that I'm sure there would be still people denying that

On the DoC thing, that's my theory: that the developers didn't want to confuse new gamers with a new and an old Hojo. I found strange when I saw Hojo's face obscured in the cutscenes. Why hidding his face when it had been a known fact since 1997 that the one who screwed Vincent up was Hojo?

I never thought Lucrecia was attracted to Hojo - or did I miss something? Have I been perpetuating an annoying fandom assumption by thinking that Lucrecia went to Hojo because he was not Vincent, and not because she was genuinely attracted to the mad professor?

Just watch the DoC cutscene when Lucrecia goes to hug Hojo and judge if that's the face a woman wears when she's about to hug a man she's attracted to.

But again, we are talking about DoC, where Hojo is presented as an old man, even 30 years prior to the first game.

Many people bash Hojo because he's ugly. Well, being a bad person twists your features in the long therm, and deforms your face. Hojo's looked like he had been scowling his entire life, so for me he could have been good-looking when he was young, albeit too cruel to be trully attractive.

 

[Glaurung]

Sorry, Neutron Ronnie, I quoted you by mistake. I was answering LicoriceAllsorts ^^;

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, I think you're right. But in some of the weaker parts of the Compilation (and I think the story of Lucrecia in DoC is one of these) I find I accept certain things as true because the game says it's so, rather than believing they are true because I've been persuaded by the quality of the writing, the plotting, and the characterisation. If you see what I mean. So I just think the whole thing would be more interesting and more believable if Lucrecia was actually attracted to Hojo (who, unfairly, never grows younger, just as the Turks never age). I mean, there were plenty of other guys around who weren't Vincent...

 

[Dee]

Lucrecia probably felt she didn't deserve Vincent's help (you know, him trying to convince her otherwise). She went to Hojo because he could do some amazing things and turned her back on Vincent because she felt guilty, not because Hojo was smokin' hot man meat. But, who knows, some girls don't really care about looks.

 

[Smaddy]

Yes
Cloud and Tifa under the Highwind

But the Hojo thing bugs the hell out of me and is the thing I hate most about DoC - why couldn't they have made him young, attractive, and crazy? Then you could see Lucrecia going for him. Mind you, Vincent was the wimpiest Turk ever.

Yeah, their characterization in DOC was horrible. As they are presented in DOC- Vincent is a shabby Turk, and Lucrecia is a shabby doctor. I guess they only have a limited window of time to portray them, but you don't get the sense that either of them has much sense, or much of a spine either.

Both are far, far too emotional/unstable people to be having their professions. The way they are presented, Lucrecia would have been taking sick days in med school instead of dissecting cadavers, and Vincent would have been too hesitant/shy to guard anyone effectively, let alone kill people if necessary.

Mind you, I'm a fan of both of them, but I really am against DOC as anything other than eyecandy.

 

[Max Payne]

Both are far, far too emotional/unstable people to be having their professions.

I find this fucking hilarious, because that's the only kind of person there is. No one in this world is completely well adjusted and blissful.

We're a collection of miserable and not so miserable people. Even the people you see day to day that seem happy, or okey dokey, are emotional under all that bullshit, and we all have our moments of instability.

Fact is this just happened to be Vincent and Lucrecia's during this point in time, and it happened to be tied into the events that occurred there.

 

[Vossler]

I find this fucking hilarious, because that's the only kind of person there is. No one in this world is completely well adjusted and blissful.

We're a collection of miserable and not so miserable people. Even the people you see day to day that seem happy, or okey dokey, are emotional under all that bullshit, and we all have our moments of instability.

Fact is this just happened to be Vincent and Lucrecia's during this point in time, and it happened to be tied into the events that occurred there.

Brother, you hit it hard and true. In RL or video games, we all have our moments of absolute shit.

 

[Smaddy]

Who said they had to be completely well-adjusted? That's not even humanly possible.

I'm just saying that the way they are presented, there's no way they'd be able to make it to where they are professionally.

I don't know what kind of scientists and doctors you have met... but I certainly hope they're not completely psychotic, emotional wrecks. And if I ever called the police or had to hire a bodyguard for some reason, I wouldn't want one going "well... hmm" or "are you sure" or being too awkward and shy to defend/help me.

Yes I am probably looking too deep into this... but to me, it drastically ruins the credibility of the story.

 

[Max Payne]

Clearly they weren't always fucked up and emotional is the goddamn point.

Lucrecia was fine before the shit with Vincents father, and was fine until Vincent came into her like and brought that shit back up.

And people hire shitty cops, bodyguards and security guards all the damn time.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Lucrecia was fine before the shit with Vincents father

Prove it.

And people hire shitty cops, bodyguards and security guards all the damn time.

Real life doesn't have to be credible. Truth is stranger than fiction, and all that. But fiction has to be credible, otherwise it becomes as stupid and boring as reality TV. Characters have to have believable motives that are presented in a convincing way. Square Enix and its staff are more than capable of doing this, but DoC seems lazy. To me, anyway. I must confess, though, that I have never played it, only watched the cut scenes.