SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Hellenic]

We will just have to hope that FF7 Part 3 ends it for good with non-optional hanky-panky under the Highwind.

Spoiler: It still won’t. Have a feeling the LTD will never die.

I'd like a Highwind scene that isn't determined by affection regardless if it stops the LTD or not. I don't think an affection mechanic for it would matter anymore for the third game.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I'm preaching to the choir a bit, I realise, but I just have to weigh in on the latest LTD deception doing the rounds: "all dates are equal, no romance is canon, you can pick who you like and it's part of the story and by design"

I can't stress enough how this talking point is actually a not-so-subtle act of subterfuge. It's essentially saying, ah, yes, maybe in your game Aerith loves Zack and Cloud loves Tifa, but in my game Cloud loves Aerith (and Tifa/Zack fade into obscurity) and that's just as valid! It's a roundabout way of arguing head-canon trumps actual canon, what you believe is more important than what the reality is.

Ultimately this "everyone wins" sentiment may come across as favourable to many, I see it oft upvoted on Reddit for example, it is nothing less than a way to write Tifa's entire character out of the narrative. Aerith has a role, she's the last of the Cetra, she has control of not one but two distinct ways of saving the entire planet from the disaster that is yet to come. Tifa cannot do this, all she can do is heal Cloud's broken mind, support him and stand by his side as his love interest.

Similarly, it removes everything Zack fought for, everything he continues to fight for, his purpose and motives. He already became a hero in Crisis Core, he's long over that, his last thoughts at the finale and his first thoughts in Remake were "I need to get back to Aerith" - Aerith's own story makes no sense if it's not coupled with her continued longing for Zack. Indeed, her entire arc with Cloud is based on the narrative that she feeds his SOLDIER fantasy with the bodyguard role in a desperate attempt to relive her lost romance. It's not some footnote or minor plot point that changes depending on one's actions. It's the story.

What they're saying works in stuff like...Persona and some VNs. Everyone can win because it affects the plot a grand total of zero. Otherwise, they're just treating FF7 like a CYOA game, which it pointedly isn't. They may as well just say they hate how the narrative didn't support their interpretation and, by extension, they don't really like FF7's story. Would be better, really. I know I've liked playing games because the gameplay is a ton of fun while simultaneously wanting to throttle the writers off a cliff for the story cough*Persona 4 and 5*cough.

To build off of these two points, I want to begin by saying how refreshing it is to have a protagonist from a AAA not be a quip cracking self-insert/blank slate generic hero type. Not that there’s anything wrong with those, but I feel like those (and its variations) have become the norm and it’s become stale.

Perhaps it’s different in the original game. But what I like about Cloud in the Remakes is that he makes choices independently from me. And there were times when I felt so frustrated with him because what I thought he did was so stupid or wrong (or both). But I liked it. Cloud isn’t me, so those moments taught me more about him. For instance, in Junon when he tells Tifa that he doesn’t care about Emilio I got so mad at him. But he backpedals because he cares about what Tifa has to say. Seeing this makes me want to see him get better with her; see his journey through his eyes. Because I can know what he’s feeling from his behaviour. And I can only assume there will be more payoff for these moments in part 3.

But this is only possible because their relationship is a non-negotiable part of the story. If his relationship getting better with Tifa was optional, we wouldn’t be able to see that part of his journey and their journey together and how impactful it’ll be seeing them in the Lifestream.

On that note I’ve gotten tired of the “it’s up to the player” types of characters and narratives. It works for some games, but I’ve recently felt like more games have done this as a cop out to not alienate people. But not everyone is supposed to agree with or be happy about everything a character (or person for that matter) does.

It’s been mentioned before, but to address this I like that SE made Cloud’s Gold Saucer experience based on his feelings and not player choice. His date may depend on player action, but how he behaves on the date is up to him and is a reflection of how he feels about the other person. He isn’t a blank slate because if he was the story would suffer. The plot wouldn’t be allowed to commit to anything significant because “what if the player chooses x over y.”


All in all I just hope they keep going in this direction with Cloud and the story for part 3.

 

[Ryeleigh]

One would think the lack of the traditional multiple routes and endings thing, along with all the non-optional scenes that disregard your choices, would clue them in that canon exists.

And yet people keep going on about those choices as if they had any bearing whatsoever on the story. I mean, at the basic level, the player "romances" Aerith -- and then gets a romantic resolution with a completely different character? Imagine romancing Morrigan in DAO and then getting a romantic resolution with Leliana.

 

[GamerSkull]

I've been thinking about this, and man am I not looking forward to it. Keeping up the facade of it being your choice wasnt a huge issue in remake and rebirth, where there was always stuff like the date that allowed for multiple paths and where the relationships with all characters were still I development enough for them to be mistake as interchangeable. But If they really want to keep this entire "it's your choice" bullshit up in part 3 it would just kill the story.

For one the amount of hoops they'd have to jump through to bend the story enough to actually give the option of choosing between the dead girl and the girl who is centerstage in clouds development in part 3 in astronomical, and would feel insanely forced.

And for two, it would do such a disservice to tifas character, since we'll never get to choose tifa as the one to save the planet.

And yet, I can totally see them doing it by making up this stupid timeline nonsense to force her into having a role in part 3.
I swear, if SE finds a way to give Aerith a personal moment with Aerith to balance out mideel and the lifestream, then all my respect for SE and this franchise would be dead. They had better focus Aeriths story on supporting cloud and tifa, because if her story in any ways tries to compete with tifas her character is dead to me in a more serious way than literally

Personally I feel Square has planted one foot in CT and the other in ZA. The question now remains on how explicit they will be about it.

 

[GamerSkull]

Perhaps it’s different in the original game. But what I like about Cloud in the Remakes is that he makes choices independently from me. And there were times when I felt so frustrated with him because what I thought he did was so stupid or wrong (or both). But I liked it. Cloud isn’t me, so those moments taught me more about him. For instance, in Junon when he tells Tifa that he doesn’t care about Emilio I got so mad at him. But he backpedals because he cares about what Tifa has to say. Seeing this makes me want to see him get better with her; see his journey through his eyes. Because I can know what he’s feeling from his behaviour. And I can only assume there will be more payoff for these moments in part 3.

The YouTuber Welonz felt this way too. Her reaction was priceless. She was like “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!”

Cloud fumbled so hard.

 

[JaeKony]

Apparently brianna is also saying the "there is no canon" line. Don't think she knows something we don't and is just giving her personal opinion. But man is it annoying.

Always hate this stance, it sounds so reasonable but leads to so many problems.

What did she say exactly? From what I’ve seen/heard, hasn’t she reprimanded gamers who target or harass people who worked on the game if it doesn’t go their way? She says it in her BBC interview here

 

[Eerie]

The YouTuber Welonz felt this way too. Her reaction was priceless. She was like “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!”

Cloud fumbled so hard.

She's such a cloti but she's fumbled every answer to Tifa so far lol. She's telling the game "I prefer Cloud and Aerith" because her answers for her have been 3 stars so far. She's making me nervous, as I know she would prefer the CT date lmao.

 

[GamerSkull]

She's such a cloti but she's fumbled every answer to Tifa so far lol. She's telling the game "I prefer Cloud and Aerith" because her answers for her have been 3 stars so far. She's making me nervous, as I know she would prefer the CT date lmao.

She’ll probably like the Gongaga stuff.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah it's one of the part of the game I really want her to see. Nibelheim too will be interesting!

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Speaking of extreme shippers, Japanese CAs are harassing Japanese CT owners of fan sites to, I quote, eradicate them A lot of sites have already closed.

Wt in the Planet is wrong with these people?

Is their life too easy.

Their life is probably too easy.

It's clearly not hard enough if they're making everything a problem and obssesing over a pairing to this degree.

Extremists suck.

 

[Stiggie]

The human race'll go extinct sooner or later, and the LTD will go with it. Unless there really is a Hell, that'd keep it going.

A thousand years from now the aliens will find the ruined remains of our civilization, they will research our archives, they will find FFVII and the threads on the LTD and they will understand how our species managed to kill itself.

Alien A: This is absurd, why on mars would they ever fight over something this stupid and obvious?
Alien B: I concur
Alien A: I mean, the story is pretty blatant about Cloud loving Tifa
Alien B: ...Tifa?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Persona, Witcher, Baldurs Gate, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Rune Factory, Fire Emblem.

What do all of these "choose your romance" games have in common that simply isn't true for FF7:Remake thus far?

Not to shit too much over your point, but Witcher and several fire emblems do have canon couples. In fact, the first two Fire Emblems only had the non optional romantic pairings, the first with an affection system of any sort had a predetermined love interest for main dude, and the first two games with the system as we know it have two all but canon pairings (Roy x Lillina and Hector x Lyn) and one absolutely canon pairing (Eliwood x Ninian).
More recent ones have been entirely pick your pairing, though.

Also Witcher had a canon love interest before there were games. CDPR fucked up by pushing Triss so hard in parts 1 and 2, hottie though she is.

 

[GamerSkull]

A thousand years from now the aliens will find the ruined remains of our civilization, they will research our archives, they will find FFVII and the threads on the LTD and they will understand how our species managed to kill itself.

Alien A: This is absurd, why on mars would they ever fight over something this stupid and obvious?
Alien B: I concur
Alien A: I mean, the story is pretty blatant about Cloud loving Tifa
Alien B: ...Tifa?

The LTD will lead to the ruination of all future civilizations.

Imagine Genesis obsessing over it.

“Is Tifa the Goddess or is it Aerith? I will find the answer. Quietly but surely.”

And yes, Ryu is right.., canonically Yen is the real love interest. Surprised the shipping war isn’t stronger with the Witcher fanbase. Although I suppose that’s probably because the game actually lets Geralt pick what the player wants.

I don’t know about Fire Emblem though. I haven’t played much of that franchise.

 

[Hix]

canonically Yen is the real love interest. Surprised the shipping war isn’t stronger with the Witcher fanbase. Although I suppose that’s probably because the game actually lets Geralt pick what the player wants.

That and, you know, Geralt sleeps with basically everyone and confesses he loves other women in the novels too. As a character, he - and Yen too for that matter - have been shown to be pretty loose, to put it lightly.

I'm not excusing CDPR creating the Triss thing, she's different enough (and I feel has a nicer arc) that it stands on its own, but within the world of the Witcher it's not unthinkable Geralt would end up with her, or another woman, if freed from the Djinn's magic.

Final Fantasy VII is different. From the beginning Cloud is shown to have eyes only for Tifa. It's these feelings which spur him to (try to) join SOLDIER setting up the events of the game, these feelings that snap him back to some form of sanity in Midgar and these feelings which come bursting forth in the Lifestream sequence.

So too, Tifa loved Cloud then and we keep getting told and shown nothing changed or changes.

The LTD is really a spanner in the works of the story. One could argue Triss may be this too (though Geralt does sleep with her in the novels, he does this with basically every woman) but there it is set up, telegraphed, developed and made to be believable. Even those who dislike Geralt/Triss admit it doesn't necessarily feel out of place due to 2 prior games of build up before the wild hunt payoff. CA just feels like a flash in the pan - both in universe and out - compared to everything pushing CT (and to a lesser extent ZA)

 

[Maidenofwar]

Brianna, I don't blame her, she has to cater to both CAs and ZAs, and also protect from harassment or abuse from any anti CA extremists if she does CA route. I've only watched a bit so far, I saw her say aww thanks Tifa when Tifa rubbed Aerith's back in the inn and then get sucked into Queen's Blood

 

[GamerSkull]

It’s just PR, plus I seldom take actor’s interpretations seriously as compared to the writers anyway.

I’m not surprised she’d remain neutral. As someone who worked on the project, she has a certain level of responsibility to maintain.

 

[billy22]

Not to shit too much over your point, but Witcher and several fire emblems do have canon couples. In fact, the first two Fire Emblems only had the non optional romantic pairings, the first with an affection system of any sort had a predetermined love interest for main dude, and the first two games with the system as we know it have two all but canon pairings (Roy x Lillina and Hector x Lyn) and one absolutely canon pairing (Eliwood x Ninian).
More recent ones have been entirely pick your pairing, though.

Also Witcher had a canon love interest before there were games. CDPR fucked up by pushing Triss so hard in parts 1 and 2, hottie though she is.

I am aware that the Witcher books exist, which have a canon interest. I was actually refering to the games, specifically. For Fire Emblem, it was the modern games, such as 3 houses, Awakening, or Engage. I uh, forgot that series has about 20 or so odd games, and hasn't always done the whole "choose your wife" thing.

 

[Stiggie]

Brianna, I don't blame her, she has to cater to both CAs and ZAs, and also protect from harassment or abuse from any anti CA extremists if she does CA route. I've only watched a bit so far, I saw her say aww thanks Tifa when Tifa rubbed Aerith's back in the inn and then get sucked into Queen's Blood

I assume she'll try to get Aerith, I mean, it would be pretty weird for her not to, and I'd totally get Aerith fans being upset if she went for Tifa. Hell, doesn't even have to be Clerith, just Aerith fans in general, ofcourse you'd want to see her reaction to her own scene.
Still though, she's probably nice to Tifa as well so if she did get the Tifa date it would be pretty funny.

 

[Maidenofwar]

She's doing side stuff I think, so I assume she won't end up with Cait Sith like me. Even if she only does the very minimum like help Chloe or go back to Kalm to help the townspeople or get the Junon chocobo (I ignored all that) it might be enough for her to get one of the girls.

 

[Stiggie]

She's doing side stuff I think, so I assume she won't end up with Cait Sith like me. Even if she only does the very minimum like help Chloe or go back to Kalm to help the townspeople or get the Junon chocobo (I ignored all that) it might be enough for her to get one of the girls.

Caith Sith!? hahaha, oh wow.

 

[GamerSkull]

I do love the Boy’s Night GS date. It’s pretty funny honestly.

I’m currently working on my second playthrough and seeing if I can get that one.

Edit: I didn’t. Got Tifa again. But this time I did manage to get her HA date. I got the standard my first time through

 

[Graymouse]

What is always strange to me is that a lot of C/A shippers conveniently forget that Cloud would have never meet Areith without first trying to impress Tifa by going into SOLDIER and Cloud wanting to be as strong as Sephiroth.

The entire story has its genesis on that very fact.

So why can't C/A be happy that if it wasnt for Tifa in the first place, to set the events into motion, he would not have ever meet Aerith at all.

Instead they are trying to erase Tifa's characters out of existence because it conflicts with their head canon?

 

[GamerSkull]

What is always strange to me is that a lot of C/A shippers conveniently forget that Cloud would have never meet Areith without first trying to impress Tifa by going into SOLDIER and Cloud wanting to be as strong as Sephiroth.

The entire story has its genesis on that very fact.

So why can't C/A be happy that if it wasnt for Tifa in the first place, to set the events into motion, he would not have ever meet Aerith at all.

Instead they are trying to erase Tifa's characters out of existence because it conflicts with their head canon?

To be fair, they’d probably say “gotta look forward, not back” and say that the Tifa promise stuff was all in the past.

 

[Graymouse]

To be fair, they’d probably say “gotta look forward, not back” and say that the Tifa promise stuff was all in the past.

I always, and i mean always hated that line! It is such a shitty line. Simply because it erases Zack's entire story. Also, people must think that Cloud is a total jackass that he would treat Tifa that shitty after the events of FF7.

Not only that, it is only then, Cloud can look back when it involves Aerith and not look forward when it involves Tifa? What sense does that make?

It makes all 4 characters very hollow and a game I would put down in 2 mins. If I am being honest. I hate cardboard cutout characters.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I don't hate the line mainly because almost nobody is allowed to move on from their first loves in these games apparently, CT, ZA, Barret/Myrna, etc and everyone has to be conveniently heteronormative paired. However not a hypocrite doesn't mean characters can't look forward again even after that.