SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 16 Spoiler Discussion

LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
That's right, Shinra could have totally covered that up. I'm sure none of the survivors talked to any of their comrades. And there are so many First Class SOLDIERS that they're nothing special, they're not worth remembering. Everybody had surely forgotten what Zack looked like. He was such a forgettable guy.
 
Theozilla

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Like Force said that depends on how widely known the information of Zack's last stand is to other grunts. Like plenty of real life soldiers in the military are unaware of the operations of other platoons/troops/divisions/etc.
Plenty of grunts could have been unaware of the Zack operation, especially since it was of the nature of taking care of an AWOL SOLDIER, which we already know with Sephiroth is information that Shinra keeps covered up.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
I don't know how you get Zack is a bad texter from Kunsel saying You never tell me anything and It's no use keeping secrets from me.

How do you know Shinra covered up the existence of the Genesis army?
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It had been 4 years. Do you really think the majority of folks in a military unit with high turn over and questionable leadership would bother to give a damn over another KIA in a different branch?

Zack was dead to most people. Only those closest to him were bothering to remember his name. Shinra certainly had no reason to keep his memory alive. He isn't Sephiroth. So by that alone he might as well just be a helmet wearing red-shirt.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
I know nothing about DoC. Do they mean his entire existence was erased, or that his continued existence as part of Deepground was known to no one?
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Given the number of people who saw Genesis copies in Midgar, they must have had to slaughter the entire population of the city and replace it with actors.

If you are fine with such silliness, then, fine.
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
It's not a question of being fine with it. It is what it is, though.

That rank and file troops aren't seething with anger over Zack's last stand - or even know if it - is far more believable, imo. And yeah, as Mako said, Zack was reported dead four years earlier, would any of those troopers fighting even know who it was?
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Do remember most Genesis Copies are masked or degenerated to the point their face no longer even resembles the SOLDIER they're a copy of.

Shinra could easily spin the news to call those Genesis Army attacks insurgent strikes from Wutai or terrorist attacks from jealous activists wanting to "protect the planet." It's not like anyone would care.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
So, you're happy to take at face value the statement that Shinra successfully covered up the entire existence of Genesis and (one must assume) Angeal, despite their extensive fan club (all murdered by the Turks, I suppose. Farewell, Red Leather girl) and despite the fact that many citizens of Midgar were eyewitnesses to the Genesis copies, but you are not prepared to take at face value the statement that Zack tells Kunsel nothing and is trying to keep secrets from him?

Do you remember how many of the Genesis copies looked like Genesis cosplayers, or how famous his outfit was? So famous that his fanclub was called Red Leather?
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Frankly that's Crisis Core's fault. Dirge came first. But that's what the canon that currently exists says.

I never considered the fan club thing a serious element to the world's lore. More a playful references to real-world fangirls.

LicoriceAllsorts said:
but you are not prepared to take at face value the statement that Zack tells Kunsel nothing and is trying to keep secrets from him?
Click to expand...

but as for this, you're hanging on this point more than I am. I guess I just figured Zack didn't really bother talking to him, rather than actively keeping secrets from him. Kinda like how you imagine Cloud's relationship to Zack. One-sided.
 
Roger

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Regardless, Zack is not Genesis, whose clones attacked every Shinra installation all over the world during a two year period immediately following his service that already made him famous.

Zack was declared dead, five years pass, a large force of soldiers is dispatched to kill someone matching his description, exactly 3 men survive, and they aren't allowed to contradict the report. This guy knowing Zack isn't that plausible, Shinra Inc is a big organisation and those three guys aren't that valuable, like Zack continued to be after Genesis was "dead", probably got reassigned to Modeoheim to keep them from talking, no skin off Shinras back. Zack himself got a forced vacation after killing the supposedly killed in action SOLDIER First Class renegades too.

Cloud knowing someone who went through training with him, and Cloud knowing Kunsel, Zack's friend is not that implausible. I agree this guy wanting to tell Kunsel is kinda strained to force a Crisis Core reference but Kunsel probably the only guy they know that can pull strings to help someone with a spotty record.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
LicoriceAllsorts said:
So, you're happy to take at face value the statement that Shinra successfully covered up the entire existence of Genesis and (one must assume) Angeal, despite their extensive fan club (all murdered by the Turks, I suppose. Farewell, Red Leather girl) and despite the fact that many citizens of Midgar were eyewitnesses to the Genesis copies, but you are not prepared to take at face value the statement that Zack tells Kunsel nothing and is trying to keep secrets from him?

Do you remember how many of the Genesis copies looked like Genesis cosplayers, or how famous his outfit was? So famous that his fanclub was called Red Leather?
Click to expand...

... This is the same company that rebuilt an entire town in painstaking detail, that was razed to the ground and inhabited said town with perpetual paid actors.

Yes. I believe this is 100% in line with Shinra. The fan club members don't need to be killed, they only need to be silenced. Legally threatened. Blackmailed. Threatened with violence, etc. Shinra owns everything so it's easy to wipe the records clean if they wish.

It's not like the company has anything better to do or checks on their global power. They functionally rule the world.

Some sad old fangirls aren't going to upend the propaganda network of Shinra. And the G Reports specifically state that some people in the slums still speak of the missing SOLDIER known as G. So yeah, Dirge acknowledges there are those out there who remember him.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
The different parts of the Compilation often do not gel with each other.

I am, however, perfectly happy to accept that Shinra successfully covered up all trace of Genesis' existence and history, if in return my esteemed adversaries will accept that Kunsel was constantly pushing himself on Zack and that Zack tried to tell Kunsel nothing.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Zack was on the run and rightfully assessed his communications were monitored. That's why I always figured he didn't reply to Kunsel upon getting on the run. He barely trusted Cissnei and the Turks.

Zack was being careful, there's nothing to indicate he didn't like Kunsel or Luxiere. He just wanted to live.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
"Uninterested" is good enough for my purposes. Surely, if someone is your friend, you're interested in them. This is why I find it jarring when people portray Zack and Kunsel as friends. Zack was probably affable to Kunsel's face because he was affable to everyone, but those messages don't make it sound like Zack thought of him as a friend. And saying "There's no point in keeping secrets from me because I have ways of finding stuff out," is just creepy by any standard. Why would you even want to be friends with someone like that? That email set the tone for "my" attitude towards Kunsel, and every future email "I" received from him was viewed in that light.
 
ForceStealer

ForceStealer

Double Growth
But none of us portrayed them as close friends. Just that it's reasonable enough that Kunsel was pushing to find out what happened to Zack and would likely want to know if Cloud showed up.

I don't know why Kunsel gathered such a following either. Probably for the same reason Noctis had that equally-baffling following for years after nothing but hte first Versus trailer. A blank slate for all the fanfic writers to go hog wild with.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Zack has hung out with Kunsel. The problem is that upon promotion to 1st Class, Zack drifted away due to circumstances of the plot. He had no time to hang out with his fellow 2nd Class due to... Everything.

That's sorta how it is in real life when friends get separated by class, homeroom, work divisions, moving away, etc. That doesnt imply Zack didn't like him anymore. Like in reality, the immediacy of everyday got in the way.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Ok, but the troopers' willingness to help out SOLDIER flies in the face of the antagonism and rivalry established between them in CC. But sure, let's just say these two guys are the exception.
 
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