SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

I don't know where the Cloud's such an ass that he won't sit next to Aerith narrative goes, but I do know where it leads, to Cloud giving Aerith a mini tour, to him saying Aerith can vent on him, to him holding his hand open for Aerith to take, for him being comfortable enough to do couple poses with her, to him to take photos of her, nothing sneaky about it/I took it boldly, to him still talking to flowers about her, etc, to them getting closer.

 

[nars305]

IMHO they could have avoided this by having Tifa and Red handle the Gongaga stuff rather than Cloud bringing up romance and Aerith being like wow you really went there and all that boy you like is a dead loser, if they wanted the party concerned about Aerith, much better ways of handling it.

I think it being Cloud and Tifa in that scene makes sense because they have an ongoing thing of Tifa and Aerith discussing Cloud.

Aerith knows Tifa knows Zack, and there’s confusion of Cloud telling his story from Zack’s position. So it’s been a story between them three since the beginning of the game when he tells the story at Kalm.

 

[Rin]

Not really. Cloud speaking bad about Zack when Zack was, unbeknownst to him, his late best friend, is important. It adds to the feelings of guilt Cloud would harbor towards Zack if he was going around talking shit about him, when in reality Cloud forgot him and that he was basically his only friend, and an extraordinary friend at that. Zack is relevant to Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith, that's why they handle the situation and not Red, because he has nothing to do with Zack.

100%. It's really important because when Cloud does finally remember, he's so disgusted with himself to the point where he asks how he could have ever forgetten about Zack. He's even upset with Tifa for never bringing him up, accusing her of knowing all along that Zack drowned in the river.

If you remove Cloud from the Gongaga scenario, all of that really wouldn't pack a punch anymore. And it's the one thing, other than Nanaki's trial, that I was really looking forward to in Rebirth when we heard a snippet of the dialogue in that one trailer. I was soooo excited that Cloud was going to remember Zack so much earlier in the story and I'm happy to say I was not let down.

 

[Stiggie]

we instead get focus on Tifa and Aerith's friendship and character moments not based around the main character boy love interest

I've heard a lot of people talk about how its good that they're not jealous in the remake but instead friends and I think I am one of the few people who actually disagrees lol.
For one I don't think there is anything wrong with jealousy, it's a human emotion that's fine to explore so I don't mind it being there. But Aerith and Tifas friendship does come with baggage that I find particularly unpalpable.

If Aerith and Tifa are great friends then Aeriths behavior kinda disgusts me, it's one thing to hit on Cloud in the presence of Tifa if you don't really know her. But to do it while pretending to be great friends, even as a rebound, or maybe especially as a rebound, just really sickens me. In Rebirth anytime Aerith is alone with Cloud it feels like she's waiting to be alone with him so she can stop her "I'm your friend act" with Tifa an stab her in the back while she's not looking.

Imagine being Tifa, having all these heart to hearts with Aerith, helping her with her pain over Zack, talking about boys, you have a date at the GS with Cloud, you then almost kiss him in Gongaga, Aerith is all supportive telling you it'll be alright, you go back to the GS, you kiss Cloud. And then suddenly when no one is watching Aerith uses her ancient powers to go on a dream date with Cloud and following Clerith interpretations confess her feelings to him......I can say it in no other way than FUCK this woman. Right now I can still find some reasons to give Aerith the benefit of the doubt, mostly the fact that I think Aerith is desperately projecting her feelings for Zack onto Cloud even during the dream date, and is only doing it because she knows this is the end and she wants closure. Aka, she is in no way trying to get between Cloud and Tifa here, she knows that there is no outcome to this date that would result in Tifa being hurt since even IF they both had feelings for each other, that date would still be the end of it and Cloud would go on to Tifa.

But really, if there is ANYTHING in p3 that hints at Aerith actually trying to further connect with Cloud in some romantic way past that date....her character is dead to me. And her friendship with Tifa would be to blame for it, because friends don't do that.

I don't HC his line in chapter 8 as jealousy bc he says the exact same thing to her even if he's alone. If he's jealous of the idea of her spending time with someone else, why not offer to stay and hang out with her?

This is what convinced me it wasn't jealousy, the moment he said the same thing while alone the idea of it being jealousy made zero sense to me.

 

[pxl_pushr]

IMHO they could have avoided this by having Tifa and Red handle the Gongaga stuff rather than Cloud bringing up romance and Aerith being like wow you really went there and all that boy you like is a dead loser, if they wanted the party concerned about Aerith, much better ways of handling it.

But then you miss out on another example of Cloud having the social grace of a sledgehammer, his initial badmouthing of Zack which feeds into his following guilt over doing so AND forgetting him, and him showing that, clumsy as he can be at it, he does TRY and console Aerith… he just messes it up so bad that both Aerith and Tifa get upset at him.

And about Ch.8… have whatever HC you wish but keep in mind that they did save Aerith from Shinra HQ like what, last week? And they almost got re-kidnapped by Hojo the day before, and Cloud had to slow-walk her up the mountain because Aerith isn’t some battle-hardened world traveler.

Tifa and Aerith also chuckle at his overreaction, telling me that it’s more him being overprotective which, again, is a step forward for Cloud “not interested” Strife.

My personal headcanon that I wouldn’t really push that hard? Aerith was trying to bait a jealous response from Cloud, but got this reaction instead. Another attempt to “find the real Cloud” but not knowing what to even look for. But again, that’s just my read on it that I really can’t backup beyond trying to see when/how Aerith has been looking through Cloud’s persona to find the real him.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Also, did anyone notice but Tifa during majority of the time is the only one throughout the entire game that reaches/grounds Cloud...no one else does that. I was always curious about that game narrative- they didnt have Aerith step in. Like they were really drilling it in with how much Tifa cares about Cloud and how Tifa's presences snaps him out of everything and how important she is to him (like in the OG but here its like theyre making it blatant but ppl ignore it anyway lol).

I wanted to address this, it's not just Tifa, it's Aerith in Kalm, it's Aerith on Mount Corel, it's Aerith on the first visit to the Gold Saucer, it's Aerith at the end of the Temple of the Ancients, etc, it's Tifa in Gongaga, on Mt Nibel, with Elena in TotA etc, they work together through the game too like in Shinra Manor, and Temple of Ancients. They both do a lot to try and reach and ground Cloud and it works for both of them, like when Cloud remembering Aerith with the flower brings him back at the end of c13, etc.

 

[Rin]

I don't know where the Cloud's such an ass that he won't sit next to Aerith narrative goes, but I do know where it leads, to Cloud giving Aerith a mini tour, to him saying Aerith can vent on him, to him holding his hand open for Aerith to take, for him being comfortable enough to do couple poses with her, to him to take photos of her, nothing sneaky about it/I took it boldly, to him still talking to flowers about her, etc, to them getting closer.

As someone who thinks he's being an ass when he chooses not to sit next to her, I don't believe it's a showcase of the fact that he doesn't care about her, I think it's a showcase of the fact that as Nojima said in that AC interview--Cloud will never be the one to take initiative in his relationship with Aerith.

(Note before I continue: I'm someone who genuinely believes their storyline is a romantic one.)

Now, this doesn't mean that Cloud doesn't care for Aerith, love her, having feelings for her, isn't attracted to her, etc.

But whether, it's platonic or romantic, Cloud isn't making an effort. He has to be coaxed. The "burden" of the relationship moving forward is always on Aerith, which is something I personally do not like, and it makes me want to smack Cloud upside the head more often than not.

I just prefer ships where both people are mutually excited and matching each others energy. I don't want Cloud to be coaxed into doing sweet things for Aerith bc she asks him to, I want him to do it because he wants to. I want him to sit next to her because he wants to, not because she pat the seat beside her and he still opts not to sit next to her. That's a very deliberate rejection and she's always hurt by this when he does it, it's written all over her face. Yes, she recovers quickly and closes the gap herself but she shouldn't have to. She deserves to be with someone who simply wants to sit next to her without being asked or coaxed.

Some might see it as a small thing but for me it's small things like that, that speak to two characters overall compatibility as lovers.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yet I see it leading to where he does take the initiative, nobody forced him to tell Aerith he'd be a venting bag, give her a mini tour, hold his hand open, crawl on the floor to try and catch her, take the photos, bring up the flowers, that he'll lead the ride, etc.

 

[Rin]

This is what convinced me it wasn't jealousy, the moment he said the same thing while alone the idea of it being jealousy made zero sense to me.

Yeah, it's just him being a neurotic weirdo in my eyes. Jealousy just doesn't track if he says the same thing when he's alone.

I HC that the reason Tifa doesn't bring up having a headache if Cloud is alone is bc Cloud wouldn't leave her side if he knew so the devs cut that part out BUT I would never state that as a fact because I don't know if that's true or not. There could be a totally different reason as to why the dialogue was cut.

 

[Rin]

Yet I see it leading to where he does take the initiative, nobody forced him to tell Aerith he'd be a venting bag, give her a mini tour, hold his hand open, crawl on the floor to try and catch her, take the photos, bring up the flowers, that he'll lead the ride, etc.

Yes but again, this is all after he deliberately chooses not to sit next to her and the gap has been closed by Aerith herself. Aerith is still the one leading most of these interactions. Cloud takes her hand after she asks him to let her have this "just until the ride is over."

The Cosmo Canyon quest is my favourite quest in the entire game AND is my favourite Clerith moment because it is the only time where Cloud is doing something sweet w/ her because he wants to, not because he was asked to. But these types of moments are very rare, if they weren't I'd like the ship a lot more but instead their interactions mostly just make me depressed or they make me cringe.

Like if I break down most of these moments you've listed, I can pinpoint the exact moment where Aerith had to coax that reaction/reaponse out of Cloud. That's what I don't like.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, it's just him being a neurotic weirdo in my eyes. Jealousy just doesn't track if he says the same thing when he's alone.

I HC that the reason Tifa doesn't bring up having a headache if Cloud is alone is bc Cloud wouldn't leave her side if he knew so the devs cut that part out BUT I would never state that as a fact because I don't know if that's true or not. There could be a totally different reason as to why the dialogue was cut.

I took it the reverse, Tifa doesn't actually have a headache, she just doesn't want to intrude and thinks of an excuse. But when he's alone she's not intruding so she doesn't mention it.

 

[Sacky]

I've heard a lot of people talk about how its good that they're not jealous in the remake but instead friends and I think I am one of the few people who actually disagrees lol.
For one I don't think there is anything wrong with jealousy, it's a human emotion that's fine to explore so I don't mind it being there. But Aerith and Tifas friendship does come with baggage that I find particularly unpalpable.

If Aerith and Tifa are great friends then Aeriths behavior kinda disgusts me, it's one thing to hit on Cloud in the presence of Tifa if you don't really know her. But to do it while pretending to be great friends, even as a rebound, or maybe especially as a rebound, just really sickens me. In Rebirth anytime Aerith is alone with Cloud it feels like she's waiting to be alone with him so she can stop her "I'm your friend act" with Tifa an stab her in the back while she's not looking.

Imagine being Tifa, having all these heart to hearts with Aerith, helping her with her pain over Zack, talking about boys, you have a date at the GS with Cloud, you then almost kiss him in Gongaga, Aerith is all supportive telling you it'll be alright, you go back to the GS, you kiss Cloud. And then suddenly when no one is watching Aerith uses her ancient powers to go on a dream date with Cloud and following Clerith interpretations confess her feelings to him......I can say it in no other way than FUCK this woman. Right now I can still find some reasons to give Aerith the benefit of the doubt, mostly the fact that I think Aerith is desperately projecting her feelings for Zack onto Cloud even during the dream date, and is only doing it because she knows this is the end and she wants closure. Aka, she is in no way trying to get between Cloud and Tifa here, she knows that there is no outcome to this date that would result in Tifa being hurt since even IF they both had feelings for each other, that date would still be the end of it and Cloud would go on to Tifa.

But really, if there is ANYTHING in p3 that hints at Aerith actually trying to further connect with Cloud in some romantic way past that date....her character is dead to me. And her friendship with Tifa would be to blame for it, because friends don't do that.


This is what convinced me it wasn't jealousy, the moment he said the same thing while alone the idea of it being jealousy made zero sense to me.

see i get this but i think what the writers want is for Aeriths moments and Tifa's moments to be more about trying to help Cloud with his memory. They are both in their own way bringing up and encouraging him to talk about the past. I think Part 3 will show the conversations between both women that reveal this.

 

[Rin]

I took it the reverse, Tifa doesn't actually have a headache, she just doesn't want to intrude and thinks of an excuse. But when he's alone she's not intruding so she doesn't mention it.

Yeah, that makes sense too!

 

[nars305]

I've heard a lot of people talk about how its good that they're not jealous in the remake but instead friends and I think I am one of the few people who actually disagrees lol.
For one I don't think there is anything wrong with jealousy, it's a human emotion that's fine to explore so I don't mind it being there. But Aerith and Tifas friendship does come with baggage that I find particularly unpalpable.

I agree, it’s the same for me. This was my complaint of it not really being a love triangle because the story doesn’t really show Aerith or Tifa acknowledging each others feelings for Cloud. Which makes no sense to me because Yuffie is aware of Tifa’s feelings, and even teases Cloud as well.

I don’t really blame it on Aerith, I think its a weak spot in the story that I choose to ignore…

 

[Ryeleigh]

I'm sure CAs aren't allowed to HC Cloud being jealous when talking to Aerith in Chapter 8 GS either, I mean how dare they even suggest such a thing.

I kind of wanted to comment on this because you are allowed to headcanon whatever you want? It's not as if anyone can realistically stop you? But there's a difference between canon, headcanon and fanon. The 'debate' of the debate thread kind of implies that this particular thread is for canon and not headcanons, lol. Which doesn't mean that people can't bring them up but in this particular thread they would be challenged?

Also, I have a genuine question, mostly for CA shippers: do you see CA as a friendship that you think would be cute/tragic/romantic as something more, or do you see it strictly as romantic, and if it's friendship and not strictly romantic, would you find their relationship and what they went through together be entirely meaningless?

As I've said before, I've never shipped canon couples so I've never really developed a vested interest in any of my ships becoming/being canon. I just like the dynamic and want to play around with it in fanon. This doesn't mean that I think the dynamic is inherently romantic and, thoroughly contradictorily, I find platonic relationships more romantic because of that lack of underlying romantic/sexual feelings, lol.

So I guess I'm just curious what's the mindset?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Quite a while back I said I don't do shipping unless it's canon, but it's since become more obvious that's not strictly true, I like art, fan videos, etc, I just like official content too even if fanservice, certainly far more than Squall Quistis, Tidus, Lulu/Rikku, etc.

EDIT- I think if they wanted to show a tale of friends, they could have avoided the LT entirely, not presented Aerith as an option whatsoever, really make Aerith a long lost sibling, half sister or something, etc. I would say a lot of CAs aren't playing to be told psyche gotcha it's friends isn't that great lol, I imagine the reaction is something like the Bugs Bunny meme with "No", like just don't bait in the first place.

 

[Rin]

I agree, it’s the same for me. This was my complaint of it not really being a love triangle because the story doesn’t really show Aerith or Tifa acknowledging each others feelings for Cloud. Which makes no sense to me because Yuffie is aware of Tifa’s feelings, and even teases Cloud as well.

I don’t really blame it on Aerith, I think its a weak spot in the story that I choose to ignore…

This is also why I don't really consider it a love triangle either. I think that Remake had more of the love triangle aspect and by Rebirth it's gone. The only time we see anything like it is in Kalm and Junon, then it fizzles out, and for the most part it's Aerith who is jealous whenever she brings Cloud/Tifa's relationship up. Tifa isn't threatened by Aerith's relationship with Cloud that alone says a lot, in my opinion, because it means she's rather secure in where she stands with him--which is a good thing.

I also think AerTi have talked too much about everything for Tifa to feel any kind of way about Aerith trying to figure out her feelings for Cloud. I just wish we got to see those conversations, so I'm hoping part 3 will give us some flashbacks or Nojima will write another short story that fills in the blanks there or something.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Something else I wanted to say for those who don't plan on immediately buying the game if things don't go their way, either side, that's ok, you don't have to do anything you don't want to, well I think there are CAs, ZAs, etc that haven't played Re-trilogy, lots of reasons for it I guess. Digital edition special editions are a lot of money these days.

 

[Sacky]

Quite a while back I said I don't do shipping unless it's canon, but it's since become more obvious that's not strictly true, I like art, fan videos, etc, I just like official content too even if fanservice, certainly far more than Squall Quistis, Tidus, Lulu/Rikku, etc.

EDIT- I think if they wanted to show a tale of friends, they could have avoided the LT entirely, not presented Aerith as an option whatsoever, really make Aerith a long lost sibling, half sister or something, etc. I would say a lot of CAs aren't playing to be told psyche gotcha it's friends isn't that great lol, I imagine the reaction is something like the Bugs Bunny meme with "No", like just don't bait in the first place.

I do agree with this. I think they may have kept some things to faithful to OG and could have toned down the choices that don't mean anything in the long term.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I think if they wanted to show a tale of friends, they could have avoided the LT entirely, not presented Aerith as an option whatsoever

With this do you mean that Aerith shouldn't have had a resolution in Remake or GS date in Rebirth? Because if you do, I find that a bit unfair because even Barret got a resolution in Remake and everybody got a date in Rebirth, which I thought was honestly great, lol. Universe gimme Zack/Cloud date please. I don't even care if it's 100% nonsense fan service, lol.

Something else I wanted to say for those who don't plan on immediately buying the game if things don't go their way, either side, that's ok, you don't have to do anything you don't want to, well I think there are CAs, ZAs, etc that haven't played Re-trilogy, lots of reasons for it I guess.

That's true. No one is obliged to buy anything they won't enjoy, lol. Which is why I think that CTs shouldn't have been ridiculed and shamed for cancelling their pre-orders either.

 

[Sacky]

With this do you mean that Aerith shouldn't have had a resolution in Remake or GS date in Rebirth? Because if you do, I find that a bit unfair because even Barret got a resolution in Remake and everybody got a date in Rebirth, which I thought was honestly great, lol. Universe gimme Zack/Cloud date please. I don't even care if it's 100% nonsense fan service, lol.


That's true. No one is obliged to buy anything they won't enjoy, lol. Which is why I think that CTs shouldn't have been ridiculed and shamed for cancelling their pre-orders either.

This is true part 3 is gonna be divisive in so many ways. For some reason the Devs have done this. I just do not want ambiguous interpretation crap especially after waiting for 3 games

 

[Rin]

EDIT- I think if they wanted to show a tale of friends, they could have avoided the LT entirely, not presented Aerith as an option whatsoever, really make Aerith a long lost sibling, half sister or something, etc. I would say a lot of CAs aren't playing to be told psyche gotcha it's friends isn't that great lol, I imagine the reaction is something like the Bugs Bunny meme with "No", like just don't bait in the first place.

But I would argue that it's not really bait. Like, I agree with you in the sense that we should've just dropped the love triangle as a whole, but I'd also argue that in a way they did. Aerith and Cloud have a romantic subplot, yes, but that romantic subplot comes with a lot of nuance.

Aerith's initial attraction to Cloud stems from his relation to Zack. The way he walks, the way he talks, etc. From the beginning, she's trying to get close to him to figure out where Zack is which is why she keeps asking him if he had any war buddy friends and is really disappointed in Gongaga when Cloud still shows no signs of knowing who Zack is. Now, Aerith isn't stupid and she knows something weird is going on and that Cloud isn't himself. She's seeing glimpses of his true self and is curious. She wants to get to know that Cloud and move on from feeling "stuck" in love with Zack.

For Cloud, Aerith is a pretty girl who more or less feeds his SOLDIER ego because she's dainty, frail, and looks to him for protection. He likes this because he's able to lean into being "cool" and living out that dream of becoming "the best of the best." But this dream is also deeply tied to becoming "a special existence for Tifa" as stated in his short story. So, he's got one girl who likes his SOLDIER persona (Aerith) and another girl who doesn't (Tifa). This is what allows Aerith to see past the persona and become curious about the real Cloud, but the real Cloud is in love with Tifa.

Ultimately, Aerith never gets to truly meet the real Cloud despite seeing glimpses of him. In the dream date, she comes to the conclusion that she is unsure of what kind of "like" she has for Cloud. On the flip side, Cloud never says he likes Aerith back or states that his feelings for her are romantic in nature at all but a one-sided romantic subplot is still a romantic subplot, after all.

At the end of the day, Clerith's romantic subplot exists to explore one part of Aerith's personal "acceptance" journey and to introduce Zerith angst before their reunion. Now, is it well executed or written? I'd personally argue that it's not, but I don't think it's there to bait you. It has a narrative purpose but that purpose isn't meant to showcase that Cloud and Aerith are in love.

 

[Stiggie]

With this do you mean that Aerith shouldn't have had a resolution in Remake or GS date in Rebirth? Because if you do, I find that a bit unfair because even Barret got a resolution in Remake and everybody got a date in Rebirth, which I thought was honestly great, lol. Universe gimme Zack/Cloud date please. I don't even care if it's 100% nonsense fan service, lol.


That's true. No one is obliged to buy anything they won't enjoy, lol. Which is why I think that CTs shouldn't have been ridiculed and shamed for cancelling their pre-orders either.

I bought the first class edition for remake, went down to digital deluxe for Rebirth because I HATED the ending of remake and the whisper nonsense. I think the ending to rebirth is similarly horrendous but I'm kinda too invested now to quit lol. And I do want to experience it without spoilers so I can't wait till a good deal either

 

[Maidenofwar]

I mean Aerith's scenes could have been more of the how are you and Tifa getting a long wink wink nudge nudge and more like Yuffie's with funny/sibling/ family bond instead of them saying Aerith is one example of romantic date and Yuffie is your family/funny one, or finding out they really are siblings or something, idk I'm just spit balling. Like it was a choice to say there are some romance ones in dev comment, etc , and to present one of those as Aerith for romance then highlight Yuffie for family.

Edit; Oops, ninjad.

 

[Ryeleigh]

So, he's got one girl who likes his SOLDIER persona (Aerith) and another girl who doesn't (Tifa).

You know, I think it was after the Johnny thing in the scrapyard when Tifa says, "Cloud your eyes" and Cloud goes all, "It's the mako~ all SOLDIER have them~". And Tifa gives this sigh and says something, "Right. SOLDIER." Which I took as that she likes Cloud but then she gets reminded all over again that he's SOLDIER now.

I mean Aerith's scenes could have been more of the how are you and Tifa getting a long wink wink nudge nudge

Well, I'd say there was a bit of that in Remake, though? Like when Cloud has his episode of baby Tifa and Aerith's all, "Tifa? Girlfriend? But she is someone special?" And then there was that smile at the flower in Tifa's bar. Even in Rebirth, she tells Cloud to cherish his bond with Tifa on the Kalm clock tower.

instead of them saying Aerith is one example of romantic date and Yuffie is your family/funny one, or finding out they really are siblings or something, idk I'm just spit balling. Like it was a choice to say there are some romance ones in dev comment, etc , and to present one of those as Aerith for romance then highlight Yuffie for family.

I do remember what page you're talking about but I don't really remember the page itself anymore, lol. So I can't really comment on it.