So is Sephiroth the strongest dude in FF7 or what

[Cat Rage Room]

It ultimately depends entirely on the playstyle of the player. With every FF game, you can find someone on YouTube insane enough to kill the final boss with a single character.

To be fair though, that's so extreme it probably shouldn't be considered canon. The canon explanation is that said character fought the boss as a full party.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Looking at the 'he was holding back/ multitasking' excuse, isn't the apotheosis into sefer sephiroth by using the whole of Jenova and massive amounts of lifestream power akin to Cloud fighting with the aid of others?

But the point remains, Sephiroth has lost to Cloud, ALONE, three times.
No matter how strong he is, Cloud overcomes him through various means, be it superior swordplay, or seizing a flaw in Sephiroth's defense.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Looking at the 'he was holding back/ multitasking' excuse, isn't the apotheosis into sefer sephiroth by using the whole of Jenova and massive amounts of lifestream power akin to Cloud fighting with the aid of others?

But the point remains, Sephiroth has lost to Cloud, ALONE, three times.
No matter how strong he is, Cloud overcomes him through various means, be it superior swordplay, or seizing a flaw in Sephiroth's defense.

^This. Thank you Ryu.

 

[Roger]

It doesn't change the fact he needed help from his friends and Materia. There is no FF main-character stronger than the main-villain of his/her respective game. They all had help of some sort to beat their enemies.

And remember that Sephiroth was multi-tasking in FFVII: fighting the party, holding back Holy, and using the BM to summon Meteor. IMO that's a way of making things easier for the heroes, and can be considered a plot-device.

In AC Sephiroth had his own personal Lifestream (fueled by among other things Cloud himself for the last year or so) and Cloud's Materia on his side while Cloud had nothing but his sword(s). Personally, I don't think Cloud is stronger then Sephiroth in the main continuity, but to say that Cloud had help is ridiculous.

 

[Dark and Divine]

In AC Sephiroth had his own personal Lifestream (fueled by among other things Cloud himself for the last year or so) and Cloud's Materia on his side while Cloud had nothing but his sword(s).

No, his remnants were the ones who have Cloud's Materia. And considering that he has his own Lifestream, wich is the source of magic in FFVII, why would he need Materia in the first place?

Personally, I don't think Cloud is stronger then Sephiroth in the main continuity, but to say that Cloud had help is ridiculous.

I think that OWA-2 was refering to the final battle in FFVII, where Cloud together with Avalanche fought Safer Sephiroth.

 

[Max Payne]

As I stated before, Logic and Science trump God at all times, . Besides, who said anything about dying?

In case you hadn't noticed that don't apply to fiction all the time, and gods have a habit of dying in fiction. A lot.

 

[looneymoon]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer has two notable unbeatable, godlike characters. The first being Glory, who was by all accounts unbeatable. She was eventually defeated in the form of her human alter-ego, but as a god the lead cast didn't stand a chance. The other would be the First Evil, which went undefeated through the series' conclusion, because there is no possible way of vanquishing the abstract concept of "evil in existance."

and in terms of FF Final Battles, the series seems to go with the trope that friendship/love/teamwork can vanquish any obstacles etc. This does not exclude the AC/C final fight. Cloud is all but defeated by Sephiroth, but because he has more of a reason to fight, to protect his loved ones, Cloud came up on top. It's actually pretty consistent with all the counters I've seen between them, Dissidia discluded as I haven't played a version I understand yet

So simply put, while I believe Seph is probably more powerful and skilled than Cloud, my hearts&gay bullshit explanation of his wins is that er... it's all about the love, man

 

[Max Payne]

I'd like to go on record as having thanked you for agreeing with my point in the first paragraph and not the rest of your girlyiness.

 

[OWA-2]

Personally, I don't think Cloud is stronger then Sephiroth in the main continuity.

We agree then. Good.

I think that OWA-2 was refering to the final battle in FFVII, where Cloud together with Avalanche fought Safer Sephiroth.

Yup.

Looking at the 'he was holding back/ multitasking' excuse, isn't the apotheosis into sefer sephiroth by using the whole of Jenova and massive amounts of lifestream power akin to Cloud fighting with the aid of others?

No, because Sephiroth was fighting alone and Cloud wasn't. Jenova and the Lifestream aren't characters participating in the fight, they are merely extensions of Bizarro/Safer Sephiroth's power.
The same cannot be said about Cloud and the other individual members of AVALANCHE.

I must have missed the friends and Materia usage in AC/C.

Then stop watching AC/C and go play FFVII.



Guys, you can choose many reasons for how Cloud was able to beat Sephiroth: because Cloud has more of a reason to fight, because he had help, because of Sephiroth's own arrogance and/or stupidity, because he was smart enough to find an oppening on Sephiroth's deffence and exploit it, because Seph was multi-tasking, whatever.
But don't tell me Cloud won because he was stronger/more-powerful. This is simply not true and you know it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No, because Sephiroth was fighting alone and Cloud wasn't. Jenova and the Lifestream aren't characters participating in the fight, they are merely extensions of Bizarro/Safer Sephiroth's power.
The same cannot be said about Cloud and the other individual members of AVALANCHE.

And that they are different individuals makes a difference to Sephiroth utilizing an outside power source as well BECAUSE...?

Then stop watching AC/C and go play FFVII.

Which isn't a valid debunk of the point that on three occasions, it is Cloud, acting alone, without assistance of Materia or allies, that takes down sephypoo.

Guys, you can choose many reasons for how Cloud was able to beat Sephiroth: because Cloud has more of a reason to fight, because he had help, because of Sephiroth's own arrogance and/or stupidity, because he was smart enough to find an oppening on Sephiroth's deffence and exploit it, because Seph was multi-tasking, whatever.
But don't tell me Cloud won because he was stronger/more-powerful. This is simply not true and you know it.

Except they're 4 for 4 in Cloud's favor, three of which were 1 on 1, the outlier being the instance when he attempted to become a god.
Stronger? Maybe not. More powerful? Largely an ill defined notion.

Cloud is fucking BETTER.

End of.

 

[Max Payne]

inb4 butthurt

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Guys, you can choose many reasons for how Cloud was able to beat Sephiroth: because Cloud has more of a reason to fight, because he had help, because of Sephiroth's own arrogance and/or stupidity, because he was smart enough to find an oppening on Sephiroth's deffence and exploit it, because Seph was multi-tasking, whatever.

And how many reasons excuses does Seph have for losing to Cloud? Cloud had help, Seph held back, Seph was caught off-guard, Seph had gotten drunk the last night and couldn't see straight...]

Bottom line is, Seph loses, Cloud wins. At the end of the day, Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth.

 

[looneymoon]

I'd like to go on record as having thanked you for agreeing with my point in the first paragraph and not the rest of your girlyiness.

TEEHEE~

Though to be quite honest... I have been in an abnormally frilly mood these days

Guys, you can choose many reasons for how Cloud was able to beat Sephiroth: because Cloud has more of a reason to fight, because he had help, because of Sephiroth's own arrogance and/or stupidity, because he was smart enough to find an oppening on Sephiroth's deffence and exploit it, because Seph was multi-tasking, whatever.
But don't tell me Cloud won because he was stronger/more-powerful. This is simply not true and you know it.

If we're going to compare their individual stats then I'd be inclined to agree... but Cloud still is the better fighter (or whatever way you want to word it). Sephiroth has yet to take Cloud down, despite whatever advantages he may have.

The whole situation reminds me of the Karate Kid where the l0zer Ralph Macchio one-ups the highschool asshole who was more experienced (and maybe even better?) at karate than said l0zer.

 

[Roger]

No, his remnants were the ones who have Cloud's Materia. And considering that he has his own Lifestream, wich is the source of magic in FFVII, why would he need Materia in the first place?

Sephiroth came back "through Kadaj's body." Ultimacia uses that wording. where do you think the Materia that Kadaj had went?

and in terms of FF Final Battles, the series seems to go with the trope that friendship/love/teamwork can vanquish any obstacles etc. This does not exclude the AC/C final fight. Cloud is all but defeated by Sephiroth, but because he has more of a reason to fight, to protect his loved ones, Cloud came up on top. It's actually pretty consistent with all the counters I've seen between them, Dissidia discluded as I haven't played a version I understand yet

Uh no, Sephiroth held back fine, we've never seen his true power fine.

But comparing Sephiroth on what they've showed to Cloud on what they've showed Cloud wins. Hands down. Nothing in Sephy arsenal, in any of his appearances equates to Omnislash V6. The power of Love didn't win that fight. Limitbreaks did.

 

[OWA-2]

And that they are different individuals makes a difference to Sephiroth utilizing an outside power source as well BECAUSE...?

Because it wasn't an outside source anymore. The moment he merged with Jenova and absorbed Lifestream, it became part of himself.
By your logic, every FF main-character is stronger than their villains, because most of the villains gained power through unnatural means.

Which isn't a valid debunk of the point that on three occasions, it is Cloud, acting alone, without assistance of Materia or allies, that takes down sephypoo.

It doesn't change the fact the Sephiroth in FFVII is the same as the Sephiroth in other Compilation titles. And Cloud needed help to beat that one.

Except they're 4 for 4 in Cloud's favor, three of which were 1 on 1, the outlier being the instance when he attempted to become a god.
Stronger? Maybe not. More powerful? Largely an ill defined notion.

Cloud is fucking BETTER.

End of.

"Better" and "stronger" aren't the same thing.

 

[Roger]

It doesn't change the fact the Sephiroth in FFVII is the same as the Sephiroth in other Compilation titles. And Cloud needed help to beat that one.

What is your point? Even if he was the exact same person Cloud needed help with, Cloud is clearly depicted as more powerful in the other titles. in KHII Sephiroth doesn't even consider winning an option.

 

[laurence]

It's clear that SE meant for Sephiroth to be the strongest. As many stated here, the fact that Cloud needed a team to defeat him as a boss, and the scarcity (in my case) that only Cloud, or even with the help from his team, could beat Seph on the first try make my point stand. Also comparing Cloud's and Seph's Omnislash vs Meteora(?) seem to talk for themselves.
Another point is the fact that Seph is 100x harder to beat in KH than Cloud, so it's super clear that SE want Sephiroth to be stronger there.
Even more, Seph has a stronger physical appearance.

So yeah that's my opinion.

 

[Roger]

It's clear that SE meant for Sephiroth to be the strongest. As many stated here, the fact that Cloud needed a team to defeat him as a boss, and the scarcity (in my case) that only Cloud, or even with the help from his team, could beat Seph on the first try make my point stand. Also comparing Cloud's and Seph's Omnislash vs Meteora(?) seem to talk for themselves.

Please specify what attack you're talking about. I don't remember Meteora.

Another point is the fact that Seph is 100x harder to beat in KH than Cloud, so it's super clear that SE want Sephiroth to be stronger there.
Even more, Seph has a stronger physical appearance.

So yeah that's my opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Kingdom Heart 2: Cloud and Sephiroth clash, two second into the cutscene Sephiroth says "killing me is meaningless" Like he's already lost the battle itself.

 

[laurence]

Please specify what attack you're talking about. I don't remember Meteora.



Correct me if I'm wrong: Kingdom Heart 2: Cloud and Sephiroth clash, two second into the cutscene Sephiroth says "killing me is meaningless" Like he's already lost the battle itself.

I meant Supernova. Clouds omnislash may damage more but Supernova seems more powerful ,maybe a bit exaggerated to the damege it does. Haven't played KH2, so I can't comment on it, so I was basing my opinion on KH.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Sephiroth came back "through Kadaj's body." Ultimacia uses that wording. where do you think the Materia that Kadaj had went?

True, but Sephiroth wouldn't need to use that materia, since he has the Negative Lifestream, wich is a portion of the source of magic in the world.

Uh no, Sephiroth held back fine, we've never seen his true power fine.

That's true that we never saw Sephiroth's full power, but we can't say that Sephiroth held back, not in physical strength, at least. As for magical power, Sephiroth only used it when he covered the sky with the Negative Lifestream to from a barrier around Midgar and brought down the top of Shinra's bulding.

But he never used any kind of magical power against Cloud, because fighting with his sword and making use of his physical prowess was the most direct way to fight him, a single opponent.

Nothing in Sephy arsenal, in any of his appearances equates to Omnislash V6.

Having the Negative Lifestream, a portion of the Lifestream bent to his will is as impressive (and in a grand scale, more destructive) as Cloud's Omnislash V6.


And I think it's better to leave the KH saga out of this, since it's a AU, seperated from the original FFVII canon and the characters aren't exactly their original selves.

 

[Roger]

\
Having the Negative Lifestream, a portion of the Lifestream bent to his will is as impressive (and in a grand scale, more destructive) as Cloud's Omnislash V6.

I don't think you understand how fast you need to be to create six+ afterimages of yourself. He was going several times faster then light. More destructive, sure but it would never touch Cloud, nor would anyone be able to do something until Cloud was finished with his attack.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

He was going several times faster then light.

I'd like to note that this isn't possible.

 

[Joker]

I'd like to note that this isn't possible.

And everything else that happens in the series is?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah but we have no reason to believe that he was going several times faster than light. Just really really fast. Do you know just how fast light is?

 

[OWA-2]

What is your point? Even if he was the exact same person Cloud needed help with, Cloud is clearly depicted as more powerful in the other titles.

The power shown by Cloud and his friends in AC/C was gained during their journey throughout FFVII.

in KHII Sephiroth doesn't even consider winning an option.

Not canon.