[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
No comments yet
Log in or Register
You know what everyone, I just thought of this now and I just want to see what you all think. Sense the games story goes chronologically like this: Crisis Core – FFVII (original) – Advent Children – Dirge of Cerberus, and sense there’s the secret ending to Dirge of Cerberus with Genesis at the end picking up Weiss and flew off after that, ( if you havent seen it, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGA-7ogMn6I ) do you think the company will make a sequel eventually and continue the story were Dirge of Cerberus left off?
Cause If they do, not only will we see Genesis again (whether he come’s back as a villian or hero), but there could also be a possibility of seeing more scenes with Cloud and Tifa loving each other (or maybe, just MAYBE the possibility of a kiss scene!)
Anyways, I just wanted to see what your thoughts were too on that, if you agree…PLEASE respond so I can know. But if you dont agree, ok that’s fine, at least you have your own opinion.
All right I gotta get going, so piece put everybody!!
Sequel? Most definitely. I think my brother once read to me where it said they would continue FF7 until 2017. Whether or not that’s true, you still cant’ end a game like DoC and not give a sequel. I hope Genesis comes back. They can only do Sephiroth so many times over, and who better to take his place than his childhood friend? Cloud and Tifa loving each other? A kiss? Word of advice: DON’T GET YOUR HOPES UP.
“Don’t GET your hopes up?”
Why? Think it’s not gonna happen?
Of course it won’t. I’ll admit, I still have my fangirly daydreams every now and then, but it will never happen. Well, maybe it might. That WOULD be awesome….BUTITSTILLWON’THAPPEN! Honestly, I just don’t think the people at Squeenix really give a fuck, they just enjoy seeing us predict which couple’s gonna be canon, when they’re never gonna outrightly say so. And of course, if they won’t say so, then they definitely won’t do so.
They wont say what couple is canon? You do know that you are posting on an article where SE tells us exactly who the canon couple is right?
Jesus Christ monkey testicles, it’s been over a year, and this thing’s still active?!
I’ve read your arguments, and this looks like evidence of canon to me. I must admit, though, it’s been quite amusing to watch you rip each other new assholes.
-Braces self for the inevitable shitstorm.-
My OTP, by the way, is Marlene/Hojo. Nothing is sexier than underaged fucking with a deranged, vicious madman!
Even though C/A has no basis. For the love of God don’t call it crack. That is crossing all kinds of lines.
So, SE made a statement that Cloud and Tifa are an official couple, huh? Hmm. Funny, I can’t seem to find their statement in any magazine – online or other wise – in English or Japanese.
Oh, and if you ever played the game, there are are two different versions to the HW scene, just like there are different versions of the date, which are based on player’s choices and affinity levels. So, if you played the game and received your favoured version then this means they are an official couple? Awesome. I played the version where Cloud and Aerith go out on a date, so they’re an official couple now. Awesome logic.
P.S. A one-nighter (if it happened in your version of playing) doesn’t equal couple status, just like Cloud going on a date with Aerith doesn’t mean they were a couple.
You are not looking in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario sourcebook, then.
Even though I listed this source over a year ago on this very page.
And yes, there ARE two versions of this scene, but it doesn’t matter. Matching feelings are confirmed without the use of words that night. That’s what happened. Just like even if you didn’t get Vincent in your playthrough, he still joined the team, since that’s what happened. How you played the game and the canon are two different things. In the canon, Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings. Just like the bevy of couples on the same page did.
It’s not that they had sex, it’s that they confirmed their mutual feelings, then began living with each other, formed a family together, have a future together, etc.
It’s not about the sex, even if the sex happens. It’s about expressing how they feel. Sex would merely be the way they express it, Squirrelthecat.
So SE’s official Ultimania is not a good enough source? You want magazines? And this makes sense how?
The rather large point you seem to have missed is that the player has exactly zero impact on the story of FFVII. What date you got, going to Wutai or getting Vincent & Yuffie are not under your control as far as the story is concerned.
In other words. It doesn’t matter what you think or how you played the game. Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple of FFVII.
guys you need to calm the fuck down
besides
Cloud is with Tifa happy and well moving on
Aerith and Zack are together making sure Mr. Strife wouldn’t go his old ways again
it’s a win win…get over it
thankyouthankyouthankyou
You’re Welcome, now let’s move on like Cloud did and discuss some other stuff that is more friendly and doesn’t garner some sort stupid fute
Wow just wow! And when I finally decided to recheck out the FFVII fandom and I found this. *Facepalm* I am late. I can’t believe an article made in January 2010 still garners comments one year later. The LTD of FFVII really is serious business.
And from someone who had been a silent observer of this bloody battle for years (way back @Gamefaqs, FFF, ACF, and TNC) without ever engaging, I doubt this would end the debate completely. I mean prior to this, not even the overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of C/T has stopped the other side’s delusions, but I am hoping this would open some (if not the higher ups of the pink fortress) pinker’s eyes.
Anyway, I think this one is unequivocally conclusive. There is no twisting this. Thank you very much. There is no longer any doubt in my mind. This comment coming from a non-shipper of both pairings, but from a once devoted follower of the LTD. Bless you, people.
Oh you would be surprised at how some people can twist this.
Then again if you have been around that long then maybe you wouldn’t be surprised.
I only known about this recently, and to tell you the truth they amuse me to no end these shippers really amuse me as well
I know right in fact I haven’t known about this till recently and found how really aggressive this debate has come to…it’s like I’m in parliament of some sort and a massive debate between the labor and liberal parties (Australian politics).
The best part of this has been watching people eat each others’ faces. If I didn’t know how psychotic people can get about this subject, I’d swear half these people were trolls.
lol I know, got to love the internet and it’s massive forum wars and mass pest that prowl the net
i have some questions:
1) isn’t true that the default date is with Aerith?
2) where does it say that the mutual feelings are love?
3) in the highwind scene, does Cloud actually hug tifa, or does Tifa only lean on his shoulder?
4) what happens before the highwind scene?
5) is it true that the dialogue in the highwind scene changes when Cloud’s affection rate for Tifa is low?
6) in the link you’ve posted, isn’t it that the picture with cloud and aerith’s date is included? so is that picture, being in the page ‘for the one i love’, ignored then?
just asing. 🙂
1. By this I assume you mean ‘Aerith starts out with more AV points than Tifa.’ This is true, but one can get Tifa to a higher AV value before meeting Aerith proper. It’s not even difficult.
2. The entire page concerns itself with revelations of the romantic type. The subsection in the lower right is dedicated to non romantic displays and revelations. As such, it says everywhere that they’re of love.
3. What we see is that she has slept on his shoulder. What we don’t see is most of the evening prior.
4. You kill Hojo, Cloud tells everyone to go visit their motivators, Cloud and Tifa reveal that they’re basically fighting for each other.
5. No. That occurs if Tifa’s AV rate is low. It’s also irrelevant, since the revelation of feelings is confirmed in several places as happening.
6. No, the picture is not ignored. If you will notice, I actually wrote about it in the actual article. I also made note of the text which only talks about how Cloud’s actions determine who goes on the date with him. Likewise, it’s the TEXT below the photo of Cloud and Tifa which is most important. I know pretty pictures are pretty, but there’s content in the text, too.
Well, I was gonna answer, but it looks like Ryushikaze completely beat me to it. Though, something tells me you aren’t “just asking :)” hrrrmmmmmm
gee, that wasn’t obvious now was it?
1. No, i meant that if the player does not do anything to determine who asks Cloud on a date. you do know what default means right?
2. Hmm. As I saw the link of the translation of the whole page, the part of the date was still included in the page you say concerns itself with love. The translator noted the date first then the HW scene. The subsection you’re referring to is the one on the lower right correct?
3. Can you confirm this one:
Final Fantasy Dismantled:
Changeable event 3 (before the final battle)
Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.
At that moment, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud, the event of “dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn” and “Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance” will be different.
and
Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega):
Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different, according to the rating of Tifa’s affection to Cloud. (p. 201)
…when degree [of affection] gets higher, the conversation of the scene where they spend the night will contain strong emotions. (p. 198)
4. I’d like to see the dialogues here though. And Tifa says, “Words aren’t the only thing to tell people what you are thinking.” What was Cloud’s reply?
5. Can you give me other magazines or compilation files that state their confirmation of feelings? And whether those feelings were of love?
6. Again, how does one say that the feelings they shared were of love? If it is based on titles, then what is the title of the HW scene? And is it true that there is a scene entitled ‘Playground Ai’?
And just to add. I posted this yesterday in another name.
Lastly, what feelings were confirmed exactly? And if those feelings were confirmed, in the novella Case of Tifa, Tifa goes to Cloud in the night and asks him “Do you love me?” To which Cloud didn’t answer and merely looked perplexed. If they had confirmed their feelings are mutual, why couldn’t he just say yes? He said “yes” when Tifa changed her question to “Do you love Marlene”.
Regarding the ‘sex’ part, that’s is quite a thought. Sex on rocks/hard surface? Nice setting for something that is ‘canon’. Really, who in the world likes that kind of thing? The scene fades out with them fully clothed, just sitting. The next scene shows them exactly how they were before the scene fades out. Where are the signs of them having sex there?
If Cloud and Tifa had already confirmed their feelings for each other in the Highwind scene, why does Cloud say at the end that he ‘could meet HER there’ in the Promised Land?
Then, when he gets Geostigma, he lives away from Tifa and the kids, why? Isn’t it that when you have something terminal that may end your life, you’d spend it with those you love?
And with Case of Denzel, Cloud thought that Aerith had brought the boy to him only. Then when Tifa said that Denzel was brought to both her and Cloud, the latter just replies to it with, “Fine”. What does that mean? After that, he moves out and where does he love? Is that something you would do when you’re forming a family with one that you ‘supposedly’ love?
You may say that the novellas are irrelevant to the photo, but the confirmation you claim is quite contradictory to what follows, am i wrong?
You and Ryu seem to have a thing going with your numbered questions. So I’ll leave that alone for the most part.
You ask what feelings were confirmed when you are posting on an article which plainly state they are romantic feelings. Combine this with numerous other instances of “feeling for each other”, “feelings of want/desire” and “matching feelings” etc etc. So yes this among many sources tell us that they are feelings of romantic love they are confirming beneath the HW. I say confirming because those feeling were revealed in the lifestream.
Also what is the massive hangup some people have with the idea that C/T had sex? I mean rocks? Seriously?
Also many of your questions about the “why” of Cloud’s actions can be answered by reading the various translations on this very site. In particular the 10th Anv Ultimania pages. I’ll tell you two things straight away. Cloud’s actions were not because he didn’t love Tifa. Nor because of his feelings for Aerith. So that’s a non-starter on both ends.
Also it’s Case of Tifa (which you can read on this site) where C/T have the discussion about Denzel. And Cloud responds to her “Aerith brought Denzel to us” with a smile.
I’m not sure where you got your scene from.
All in all it seems to me that you think C/T should be living some idealistic life with no problems internal or external. And the fact that they do somehow “contradicts” the idea that they love each other and are together because of it.
Where what you should be focusing on is the fact that they do have these problems but they overcome them and are STILL together.
The numbers are funny though. :))
May I ask quotes for those lines you stated? Just like this article. 🙂 You say many sources, so please do provide at least one. That won’t be so hard, ne? As far as I could remember, the Lifestream event was about Cloud’s past. Where was the love there? His crush on Tifa who he talked to just once, near the well? Do quote a sure statement regarding the feelings of love present in the Lifestream event. 🙂
Well, it seems you’re translation here has a different version from what I’ve read. I posted another part on Case of Tifa. Would you confirm it? It’s the first long paragraph on the reply. 🙂
The sex part, well, that post was actually a reply to another comment which insisted on the sex part. And one of my classmate actually believes it. Oh well.
I didn’t say his actions were ‘because he didn’t love Tifa’ or because of his ‘feelings for Aerith’, as you said. I was just asking whether you’d like to spend more time with your loved ones rather than clam up because of guilt. Well, Cloud is a rather complicated person.
Uhm, actually, i guess his actions were because of his ‘feelings’ for Aerith. I’m speaking of guilt here before you think i’m actually referring to love.
And I’m wondering about something… In the Ultimania you said i should check out, i found this…
“it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa’s”
What’s the special bond, in your opinion?
And this one…
“Tifa’s complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith’s death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was “the child which Aerith brought here” and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn’t merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith.”
Why does Tifa think it’s related to Aerith?
Also…
“[FFVII] Seeing Cloud and Aerith developing their world together before her eyes, she inadvertently lets slip her peevish feelings.”
“[AC] Upon knowing that Cloud had been residing in Aerith’s church after leaving the place they had been living in together, her expression becomes complex.”
As it seems, she’s worried on things about Cloud which somehow connects to Aerith.
Nah, no life is idealistic. Hell, I’d be stupid to think that. Is that what you thought about my post? Hmmm… Can’t see it that way. 😀 Anyways, what does confirmation mean? That was the topic at hand not the problems, though I see your point why that was included.
confirm: to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness of; to acknowledge with definite assurance
Do the following sequels support this definition of ‘confirm’? 🙂
I’m not looking for fights here or whatsoever. Just a good, healthy discussion. In the past, things would always go the harsh way. 🙁
I’m not going to sit here and quote you every line about C/T’s feelings and their source. It’s a very long list and I don’t have it at hand.
But several can be found on the translations on this very site (including this very page).
And if you would could you please let us know where your version of CoT came from. Because every single one I have seen has Cloud responding with a smile when Tifa tells him that Aerith brogue Denzel to them. You might be confusing it with a different part of the story. So please read it again (which you can do here) and confirm this.
And if you think it’s just “guilt” for Aerith that drives Cloud. Or even just guilt in general then you have completely missed the point. Again read his 10th anv profile on this page. And watch AC/C. He straight up tells Marlene why he left.
And I don’t know why you are quote mining about Tifa’s “complex” or “insecure” feelings. If Tifa is feeling worried about her relationship with Cloud during CoT and the beginning of AC/C it could be because THIS WAS THE ROUGH PATCH IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP. Is Tifa suppose to feel completely happy and secure with her situation when Cloud becomes more closed off and then disappears after they adopt a second child?
One of the main points of the movie was Cloud getting past his guilt. Which he does. Afterwords he returns to Tifa and the children. And as of the latest part in the compilation timeline (around two years after AC/C) we know they are still together.
In regards to 1- That is exactly what I responded to. Yes, Aerith starts with more AV than Tifa. This is irrelevant since it tells us nothing about Cloud, and also because ‘Default’ and ‘Canon’ are not automatically the same.
As for 2- I don’t deny that the date sequences are concerned with attempts at revelations of love. Three of Cloud’s dates deal with the subject directly. But what we are told about this is that whoever tries to confess is rather irrelevant.
Regarding 3- Again, that’s Tifa’s affection, not Cloud’s. As for the dismantled quotation, dismantled and other sourcebooks also lists variations on events we know as having one canon version- Yuffie and Vincent Joining, Vincent fighting Hojo in Midgar, and the like.
Likewise, the revelation of feelings has also been confirmed. Tifa’s CCU profile “In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.”
As to 4- Cloud’s response is to say nothing, and then Tifa’s name. This was accidentally omitted in the NA release, but intact in the INTL version.
The text of this version is actually on the numbered page indicated on the screenshot.
For the record, the page numbered on the date screenshot details all four dates.
Regarding 5- Crisis Core Ultimania confirms it in Tifa’s profile. Mention of confirmation or realization of feelings can be found in the U10, CCU Keyword collection, and I think UO. Discussions of Cloud and Tifa having a future together and them living together being where they belong can be found in RF, as can discussion that Tifa has the role of someone’s beloved. This bleeds into answering 6, in which we say that the feeling shared were of love the exact same way we know the feelings shared between Ingus and Sarah, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Dagger, Steiner and Beatrix, and Tidus and Yuna are those of love. Because the topic under discussion IS romantic love.
There is no ‘title’ of the highwind scene. This is an invention of a fan compiled game script. Likewise, I know of no ‘Playground Ai’ title referring to either FF7 or CC, though I say that without referencing the sourcebooks, so it might be a header title discussing one of the scenes.
Regarding Cloud’s peplexity, he is perplexed because he was asleep. The scene confirms Cloud is asleep when she asks. She also doesn’t ‘go to [him] in the night’. She’s already there.
People will have sex on rocks, tables, plenty of places they’d never sleep. Also, Rocks can be damn comfortable.
As for Why Cloud says he can meet her there- because he wishes to reassure Tifa that even should they die, it is not the end. The UO says that the two of them are talking about it. Cloud is telling Tifa about it, and Tifa is responding. He is not telling Tifa, moments before they might die ‘By the by, I totally still want your dead best friend.’
Incidentally, the ‘I’ and ‘Her’ are addended in the english version. The Japanese version lacks a defined pronoun. Cloud could have used ‘We.’
Cloud leaves to find a cure for Geostigma, discovers he has it, and figures he’s being punished, that he’s unworthy of his family.
Your ‘version’ of the scene in CoT is grossly inaccurate. Cloud’s reaction to Tifa telling him that Denzel was brought to Cloud and Tifa is to smile. The idea makes him happy.
Also, where have I claimed the novellas are irrelevant to the photo? I believe I claimed the text beneath each photo was technically more important than the actual photo.
Seriously, shit gets complicated in a romance.
Also, if you wish to continue this discussion, please, join the forum proper, where we can discuss the matter in an area more designed for long discourse. Front page comments are not meant for this.
I’m just saying that the default date was with Aerith (speculation: maybe that’s why the picture regarding the date had Aerith and Cloud on it). So even if the date was optional, you get a default date whether you like Aerith or not. And i now what the difference is between ‘default’ and ‘canon’, thank you very much. 🙂
Hmm, so you’re closing off the rest of the page where that certain picture was taken from, is that it? Well, if it’s that way then so be it.
So the affection rate is based on the female’s perspective for Cloud?
Makes sense then.
As for the profile of Tifa, how can she know Cloud’s childhood? She didn’t even talk with him before the well scene. If you just take the word of Ultimania as it is without even comparing it to what you actually played it to be, what’s the point? And Cloud was able to remember things after a reminder from Tifa. And Tifa was able to help Cloud with guidance from Aerith (from MotP, which you may claim is not canon, even though SE had released it under their name with their supervision; they could easily sue the writer if he had written something SE did not want, particularly Nomura). Again, it only says that they confirmed their feelings for each other. What those were, we’re not sure. I’m not touching the ‘living together’ part coz that may lead to a longer reply.
Even if it was omitted, it was still what Cloud said in the NA release. SE could easily amend it if it was not to their liking. Now you mention that the page reference included four dates, but you don’t mention that the page reference for HW scene mentions that it’s optional…
You mention RF, so i say this:
Reunion Files (Tifa’s Profile):
“Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a
man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn’t a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she’s
been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly
to Cloud a number of times.” (Nojima)
I hope you do see how she was to be portrayed as someone who was left behind by a man. And it was mentioned that Tifa had expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times, meaning? I want to hear your answer. Though I might not be able to reply immediately.
And this one:
From an interview with Dorimaga magazine:
A Final Fantasy fan interviewed Tetsuya Nomura for Dorimaga magazine and asked “How many girls has Sephiroth ever
loved?”. In reaction, Nomura spoke evasively in anticipation of more questions regarding Cloud and Tifa’s love life,
which have nothing to do with Sephiroth.
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you
could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For
example, I was frequently asked if there had been a romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after
FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.
If the feelings were supposedly confirmed to have been love, why does Tetsuya Nomura say this? He doesn’t like to give anyone a definite answer to the LT. So why would they in just two sentences?
The someone’s beloved part, were you referring to ‘koibito’ and ‘sweetheart’? I won’t touch that then since you have a different meaning to it. 🙂
If he merely wishes to assure Tifa, he could just as easily hold Tifa and say that they’ll be alright. Instead, it was Tifa hanging onto Cloud as he said he’d like to meer ‘her’ there in the English version, which again was released under the name of SE and therefore was made to their liking.
In Cloud’s profile in the Ultimania, this was said:
“However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.”
So he gets the Geostigma first, then leaves to find a cure. But it was added that behind his actions lies his guilt.
Yep, I know. HAHA! It’s been a while since I actually read CoT. So I apologize for that mistake. In the revised version, didn’t it say that Tifa said, “brought him to our home” or can people interpret the word “us” and being “our family”? And before i forget, I do point out that the family is not only Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel. Barret is part of it too. Since he is the adopted father of Marlene after all.
I just said that you ‘may’. I didn’t say that you ‘did’. Some of those who I’ve discussed with did that.
And the discussion, I’d end it here if it were that easy. I was just looking for a nice discussion, being tired of debating and all. It was nice talking to you all! 😀
I was just asking for one. I’ll wait then. 🙂
Hmm. The picture with the HW scene has a number on top right? It’s another page on the Magazine right? Doesn’t it lead to a page where it says that the HW scene is optional? So… how does this confirms Cloud and Tifa felt the same way with each other? Let’s focus on the HW scene with this one, ne?
The version here is the revised one, is it not? So i had the old version. I admit i typed something wrong there. I said it was from Case of Denzel, but it’s actually from Case of Tifa. And the ‘Fine’ was ‘I understand’. I guess? Been a while since I actually read the old version. Anyways, I didn’t say that he didn’t smile. He did smile. But the paragraph after that shows how Tifa thought that his smile was kind of a contradiction to what he said before about living a new life. He clammed up again when he got Geostigma and went to live in the Church.
Actually, if you want it this way, his actions are driven by his need of forgiveness. He actually gave up on finding a cure for HIS geostigma, though he wanted to look for one for Denzel, who he believes was brought to him by Aerith. Well, Tifa believed Denzel was brought to their home. Nonetheless, it was still about Aerith. And since you said I should look at his character profile in this site, here it goes:
“However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.”
The word guilt is still there. So… why do you say I have ‘missed the point’?
Huff… This article talks about them confirming their feelings match right? Confirm means assurance or establishing the genuineness or validity of something, as I’ve posted before this. If Tifa was assured that Cloud feels the same way with her, why the need for worry? And working out a rough patch in a relationship means working together on it. I don’t see them talking together about it. It was more like Cloud’s personal problem. I remember in AC/ACC, Tifa offered Cloud her help, to which Cloud stayed silent for a while. Then he said he’s not fit to help anyone.
Sorry, but it seems to me that your statement makes it look like only Tifa and Cloud adopted Denzel, Barret did too since he’s part of the family. As in Case of Tifa, Cloud wasn’t originally part of the family. It was Barret raising Marlene, and Tifa helping Barret. Then came Marlene’s innocent offer to ‘put’ Cloud in the family too.
““A family.” (Tifa)
“Yeah.” (Marlene)
Marlene cheerfully answered in response to Tifa’s murmur.
“I’ll put Cloud in our family too.” (Marlene)
“I appreciate that.” (Cloud)”
And towards the end of AC/ACC, the family picture is shown to be the whole AVALANCHE team. Not just Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel. 🙂 Ooookay, I think i got out of track there. :))
He does get over his guilt. But he still continues to roam the world. He’s a ‘free spirit’, the ‘lone wolf’ after all. And after AC/ACC, it isn’t just Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel who were together, right? Barret was back. Although I would assume they’d still be continuing what they were doing before AC/ACC, which involved going off to someplace else for a long time.
Two years after AC/ACC? The last that SE had released was DoC as I recall, and as far as games are concerned. And in this site, DoC happened a year after AC/ACC. Two years after AC/ACC… Was it a novella? If so, please tell me what it is. And if the timeline here is incorrect, then confirm when DoC happens. 🙂
I want you to follow this line of logic with me. This is a translation from the Final fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania (not a magazine). This is a page about displays of romantic love. Under FFVII they have two entries. One is about a date. Which it states plain as day that it is dependent on player actions. Thus it is not mentioned who is displaying that romantic love. It should also be noted the date scene is completely one sided. The other states plain as day that it is Cloud and Tifa who display these feelings for each other.
So where exactly on this page does it say the C/T display is optional?
And because I am tired of you quote mining I am just going to quote that entire section on Cloud’s profile.
In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past.
Age: 23
Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
「 I don’t think I’m fit to save anyone. Not family, not friends . . . no one. 」
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
「 I . . . I think I want to be forgiven. Yeah, I want to be forgiven. 」
Failing to protect people important to him is his sin… Convincing himself of this, Cloud shuts himself off. What does his meeting with Aerith bring him?
Sephiroth returns using Kadaj’s body, but the old Cloud who was troubled by his words is long gone. With the strength from his bonds with his friends, he will vanquish Sephiroth this time!
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.
Combine this with what Cloud says in the movie itself and it paints a rather more vivid and complex picture that “Cloud feels guilty about Aerith”.
Cloud feels depressed in CoT because of his guilt issues. And they involved Zack as much as Aerith by his own actions and words. The reason he disappears is because he feels worthless and does not think he can protect HIS FAMILY. It’s stupid and misguided. But he felt it would be better for them if he wasn’t around. He gets over that in the movie and returns home.
And about Tifa worrying. You need to remember that Cloud’s depression doesn’t start until some time after the end of FFVII. Maybe as much as a year. The time before that was mostly a struggle to survive and rebuilding. It’s when things got quiet and normal and everyone had time to think that Cloud started to wangst. It’s Cloud withdrawing from Tifa and Marlene that causes her to worry. I don’t care how long they have been together. THIS WOULD WORRY YOU. Again your acting like all of their problems should disappear just because they are a couple.
And let me make this as plain as I can. Barret is NOT a part of the 7th Heaven family. Barret disappears 1 week after it is built. And as far as the compilation has shown us he isn’t returning any time soon. Marlene is being raised by C/T. They also adopted Denzel. Barret is nowhere in the Denzel equation. He is barely in the Marlene equation. This doesn’t mean he isn’t her father. But he is not a part of the 7th heaven family unit.
Not even when he is standing RIGHT THERE do they mention him as a part of that unit. Barret is lumped in with “Friends” (the rest of AVALANCHE). Not Cloud’s family. Barret is NEVER mentioned as part of Cloud, Tifa or Denzel’s family.
And where do you get this “roam the world” and “Free spirit” stuff from? Cloud runs a delivery service during they day. It’s his job. But he is home every night and he is there every morning. It’s almost like those are completely normal work habits. And in case you missed it Tifa calls Cloud out for islolating himself in the movie. “You hate being alone”. A person who spends half his time at home and hates being alone cannot be called a “lone wolf”.
As for the timeline? Case of Denzel takes place a year after DoC. Also the last two added scenes of AC/C take place around the same time frame.
[b]Vendel:[/b]
Well, to me, the fact that the picture made a reference to the page where it says that the HW scene is optional is relevant to the topic, since that part of the Ultimania. I keep seeing you guys telling me to refer to the Ultimania, and I did. Anyways, if you say that we should only consider this one page of the Ultimania, then go ahead. 🙂 As i said, I’m here for a discussion. 🙂 It’s nice actually.
Hmm. Cloud’s guilt and depression? About feeling depressed over both Zack and Aerith’s death… here’s a quote from CoT itself, which you have here…. again…
“Tifa put the slip away with the others as if nothing happened, but she was trembling severely. Transporting mail around the world meant he was traveling around his past too. [b]She knew that Cloud was in great pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith.[/b] Cloud was trying to overcome that and live on. But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.”
I wonder why Tifa only though about Aerith’s death here too, in regards to Cloud’s pain or depression. And Cloud does get over it, with the help of whom? He got over his quilt because of Aerith, so she was still important to his ‘getting over it’. Nojima said this:
“As long as Cloud blames himself for Aerith’s death, he won’t be able to move on with his life. One of the first ideas we had for Advent Children was to have Cloud overcome and resolve that immense feeling of guilt. For Cloud, no one other than Aerith can solve that problem for him. I tried to create an atmosphere in which she still seems to be by his side – in spirit at least.” (Nojima, Reunion Files)
*Sighs* I’m not a stuck-up brat who thinks couples won’t get into fights, or even become a couple only when the problems are resolved. I’m just saying that “couples” or “romantically-involved people” resolve things together. For Cloud though, his battles were his own. As you said, he didn’t believe he could help anyone. And Tifa knew that Cloud wanted to be alone too, as she said in AC that Cloud should let people in. And about the worrying part, she’d worry of course. But it wasn’t just about CoT, her worrying continued on to AC since he was still closed off there, but she was worried that it had involved Aerith. Why? Does she think she needs to compete with the ‘dead flower girl’s memory’? Just a thought. 🙂 You guys now Tifa way better than I do, so please enlighten me. 😀
Really? Barret wasn’t part of the family? Then… who was the Ultimania referrin to as his family here in his profile? I like quotes because they can support what i say.
In Advent Children
The hot-blooded man who returns to the battlefield,
To protect the city where his daughter lives.
Age: 37
Following the defeat of Sephiroth and the halting of Meteor, he reflected on the involvement of so many people in the radical anti-ShinRa activities. Thinking he could be at least of some use to everyone before his own life was lost, he left Marlene in Tifa’s care and set off on a journey in search of an alternative source of energy in place of Mako. Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by [b]his family[/b] and companions.
Uhm, i think it was stated that he was hardly ever home, except during morning and late night. CoT says so:
After Cloud started his delivery service, their “family” life changed greatly. It wasn’t too good. Besides morning and late night, Cloud was usually not at home. And of course, there were less chances for the three of them to have conversations together.
*Sigh* How could I miss that particular scene? Or how Tifa called Cloud on it. She was loud enough to hear. I called him a free spirit because of the Safe and Sound MV at the end of AC. SE would not have trouble showing how Cloud would’ve been sitting in Seventh Heaven, talking to Tifa and the kids, instead they show him riding off to somewhere, probably making deliveries. He likes his bike so much which enables him to ride off to wherever he wants to go, whether to make deliveries or just ride. That to me, says that he’s a free spirit. The ‘lone wolf’ part, he seemed like it at AC/C. Even if Tifa said he hated being alone, he felt it. As his line at the end said, “I’m not alone… not anymore,” meaning he had once thought that he was. 🙂
Oooh. So it was Case of Denzel. Two added scenes? I thought there were three. The part where there was flowers in Zack’s grave; the family/team picture where there were flowers in it (probably from the same flower field Cloud was seen on); and Zack’s sword in the Church, where the water was still there and the flowers were still alive.
[b]SuperAnonymous777[/b]
Debates are getting old. So i like discussions now. 🙂 But since it seems to many that we’re having an argument/debate, then it’s time to take my leave. 🙂
What I was trying to accomplish with my little logical exercise was to get you to understand the difference between game mechanics and story canon. The best example that has been pointed out already is Vincent and Yuffie. They are completely optional. You don’t have to get them or do their sidequest. But as far as the story is concerned, you do. Just like Tidus returning in X-2.
If you don’t get it at this point I will just assume you are playing games to try and find any way you can think of to try and invalidate SE flat out saying C/T reveal their romantic feelings for each other.
As for why Tifa only thinks of Aerith in that scene? It couldn’t possibly because she just saw something directly related to her? But just in case your forgot it, the first scene we see of Cloud in the movie is at Zacks grave. Where he has placed the buster sword.
And holy shit….it’s now Aerith who makes Cloud all better? Did you really not watch the movie? I guess Tifa, Vincent and Marlene had nothing to do with it? It was all Aerith?
Also you missed the point again. Tifa says Cloud HATES being alone. Him closing himself off was a bad thing to do. Everyone knows this. Probably even Cloud on a certain level. It takes until the movie for him to figure that out. Cloud never WANTED to be alone. He thought he needed to be. He was wrong. That is one of the points of the story.
As for Barret your quote states it rather plainly. Marlene is his family. Even if he considers Tifa or anyone else a part of HIS family he is not considered a part of CLOUD’S family.
Let me repeat. Barret is NEVER mentioned as part of Cloud, Tifa or Denzel’s family.
Also I feel like you are quote mining again. You fail to take into account that CoT also specifies that when Denzel arrives Cloud starts to make the effort to be home more. So Cloud is home plenty.
And if you want to leave then that is your prerogative. It’s becoming obvious that you hold a particular view and are trying to play word games to support it. Namely the idea that nearly all of Clouds actions negative and positive in CoT and AC/C are because of or about Aerith. You also don’t seem to want the 7th Heaven family to be just that. Trying to insert Barret while stating Cloud is never there. You also mentioned all of AVALANCHE at one point.
Well then, I guess Se said flat out that they conveyed romantic feelings for each other. But what I do find interesting is this:
From an interview with Dorimaga magazine:
A Final Fantasy fan interviewed Tetsuya Nomura for Dorimaga magazine and asked “How many girls has Sephiroth ever
loved?”. In reaction, Nomura spoke evasively in anticipation of more questions regarding Cloud and Tifa’s love life,
which have nothing to do with Sephiroth.
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been a romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.
If the feelings conveyed were of love, how come Tetsuya Nomura flat out says that he doesn’t have a clue as to the romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa. When you confirm that the feelings one has is same with the other, it’s saying that they have a mutual understanding, which in a sense is a start on a romantic relationship. In a way, they didn’t flat out say that they have conveyed romantic feelings.
You’re right. She saw something related to Aerith: her “mother” Elmyra, to whom CLoud delivered flowers to. Then Tifa thinks of how Cloud feels a great deal of pain because he couldn’t protect Aerith. As for Zack’s grave, he can easily go there, but not in Aerith’s grave. Tifa herself knows how much Aerith’s death had caused a great pain in Cloud’s heart.
CoT:
But, going back to the place where he parted from Aerith might mean that his sorrow and regret was going to tear his heart again.
And please don’t talk to me in that manner. Of course I have watched the movie, what do you think of me? And as i’ve quoted Nojima, he himself stated that Cloud believes only Aerith can help him. It wasn’t after Aerith tells him, “Isn’t it time you did the forgiving?” that he tried forgiving himself. Sure, Tifa called him on his brooding, Vincent asked him if it was about fighting, and Marlene had an outburst. But Cloud was seeking ‘forgiveness’ and believed that he needed that. And just to get your attention on this, i did not say that it was ALL Aerith. I said that she helped him. It was Nojima who said that no one other than Aerith could solve Cloud’s problem.
Uhm, I actually said that he was feeling alone at the beginning so I said he was a ‘lone wolf’. Yeah he hates it, but he felt it. Then got over it at the end. That’s it. So how does that differ from what you say? How’d i miss anything?
Then Marlene is part of two families? I’m really confused at what you’re getting at now. So, Marlene is part of Cloud, Tifa and Denzel’s family, but is also a part of Barret’s. Well, okay then, if that’s what makes you happy. 🙂
Uhm, you do remember that Cloud initially thought of Denzel as being brought to him by Aerith, then Tifa says the boy was brought to their home. Don’t you think him staying a lot at home maybe related to his first thought? Still, there is the fact that Cloud wasn’t at home most of the time before Denzel was taken in. And it seems that Cloud spends more time with the kids, since Denzel was able to share so much with Cloud, rather than Tifa.
I do hold a particular view about it. But it doesn’t mean I’m not open to admitting I was wrong. If my thoughts ever run out of reason, then I say so and admit it. Well, since you pointed out that Barret is not part of the 7th heaven family, then so be it. And the remaining members of AVALANCHE i guess is Barret, Vincent and Yuffie… Hmm, even Cid, Cait Sith and Red too. The end shows a picture of them all, with the ‘family picture’ of only Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel behind it. And that scene also shows the presence of Aerith, with the flowers.
You my find my response to Raven and Liulu here
There’s actually a thread dedicated to the LTD in the forums. Instead of arguing here, why not post there instead if you’re so confident in your arguments. It’s more convenient that way and it’s much easier to read. Just sayin’. 🙂
I’m just saying that the default date was with Aerith (speculation: maybe that’s why the picture regarding the date had Aerith and Cloud on it). So even if the date was optional, you get a default date whether you like Aerith or not.
And if you don’t do anything in the Farplane in 10-2, you get a default ending. You always have a default state.
And i now what the difference is between ‘default’ and ‘canon’, thank you very much.
Welcome.
Hmm, so you’re closing off the rest of the page where that certain picture was taken from, is that it? Well, if it’s that way then so be it.
What ‘rest of the page?’ The ‘Here are the four dates’ page?
So the affection rate is based on the female’s perspective for Cloud?
Makes sense then.
That’s the only way that makes sense.
As for the profile of Tifa, how can she know Cloud’s childhood? She didn’t even talk with him before the well scene. If you just take the word of Ultimania as it is without even comparing it to what you actually played it to be, what’s the point? And Cloud was able to remember things after a reminder from Tifa. And Tifa was able to help Cloud with guidance from Aerith (from MotP, which you may claim is not canon, even though SE had released it under their name with their supervision; they could easily sue the writer if he had written something SE did not want, particularly Nomura). Again, it only says that they confirmed their feelings for each other. What those were, we’re not sure. I’m not touching the ‘living together’ part coz that may lead to a longer reply.
She knew because she was there. She did talk to him before the well scene, even if perhaps not often, and they had the better part of the year to get to know each other afterwards. I am using the Ultimania and the OG and other games etc. together. This gives me context. More on that later. Tifa, in Maiden, was able with assistance, not guidance- there is a difference, in this case Aerith provided protection but not direction. Maiden appears to be roundly ignored in the compilation. Regardless of canonicity, no one seems to care enough about it. Tifa’s profile says feelings ‘for each other’ are confirmed. These feelings being the ones they confirm under the highwind. These are feelings of love. For each other.
Even if it was omitted, it was still what Cloud said in the NA release. SE could easily amend it if it was not to their liking. Now you mention that the page reference included four dates, but you don’t mention that the page reference for HW scene mentions that it’s optional…
Because the fact that something is mentioned as optional is entirely irrelevant to the fact that it happened in canon, just as Vincent and Yuffie are optional, but their joining is canon.
Oh, and they PUT THE LINE BACK IN for the International release, like I said in my first response.
Also, I do not recall that the page in question mentions that the scene is optional. I recall that is lists the entire High Highwind Dialogue sequence, including the ‘words aren’t the only way’ and including the ‘………Tifa’ at the end.
You mention RF, so i say this:
Reunion Files (Tifa’s Profile):
“Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a
man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn’t a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she’s
been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly
to Cloud a number of times.” (Nojima)
I hope you do see how she was to be portrayed as someone who was left behind by a man. And it was mentioned that Tifa had expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times, meaning? I want to hear your answer. Though I might not be able to reply immediately.
You gotta be with a man to be left behind by one. And since she has a future with that man- since really, she’s only had the one- well, he came back, didn’t he?
As for expressed her feelings to him- regarding his growing self-estrangement from the world.
And this one:
From an interview with Dorimaga magazine:
A Final Fantasy fan interviewed Tetsuya Nomura for Dorimaga magazine and asked “How many girls has Sephiroth ever
loved?”. In reaction, Nomura spoke evasively in anticipation of more questions regarding Cloud and Tifa’s love life,
which have nothing to do with Sephiroth.
Tetsuya Nomura: What kind of question is that? I’ve never thought about it. Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you
could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For
example, I was frequently asked if there had been a romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after
FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.
If the feelings were supposedly confirmed to have been love, why does Tetsuya Nomura say this? He doesn’t like to give anyone a definite answer to the LT. So why would they in just two sentences?
Because Nomura notoriously lies about upcoming works and this interview was given in IIRC 2002, when they were just fleshing out AC. On the other hand, Nojima, the writer, thinks they’re in a relationship, despite their hardships.
The someone’s beloved part, were you referring to ‘koibito’ and ‘sweetheart’? I won’t touch that then since you have a different meaning to it.
Beloved and Lover are the only two definitions which Koibito and Sweetheart have in common, and beloved is the more neutral of the two. If you even think about going down this route I will have to in the name of linguistic decency challenge you to a duel of swords.
If he merely wishes to assure Tifa, he could just as easily hold Tifa and say that they’ll be alright. Instead, it was Tifa hanging onto Cloud as he said he’d like to meer ‘her’ there in the English version, which again was released under the name of SE and therefore was made to their liking.
off course it was. Because this guy are sick and Holy is having the opposite effect.
Look, the UO says Cloud and Tifa were talking about going to meet someone in the promised land. It’s a joint effort.
In Cloud’s profile in the Ultimania, this was said:
“However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him.”
So he gets the Geostigma first, then leaves to find a cure. But it was added that behind his actions lies his guilt.
Yes, guilt for Zack, guilt for Aerith, hell, all the way back to guilt for Tifa on the bridge, maybe. Cloud has a guilt complex. He thinks things are his fault. He blames himself for shit he shouldn’t. He’s worried he will lose his new life, the life that makes him happy. The happier he becomes, the more his guilt weighs him down.
Yep, I know. HAHA! It’s been a while since I actually read CoT. So I apologize for that mistake. In the revised version, didn’t it say that Tifa said, “brought him to our home” or can people interpret the word “us” and being “our family”? And before i forget, I do point out that the family is not only Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel. Barret is part of it too. Since he is the adopted father of Marlene after all.
Not really. He is certainly part of Marlene’s family. But he is not a part of the 7th heaven unit, nor Cloud’s family. When he leaves Marlene in their care, it is noted as being the start of the ‘family of three’ with Denzel joining in later.
Similarly, he can protect his family without being part of the family unit. I count my aunt part of my family, naturally, but she’s never been a part of our home unit.
I just said that you ‘may’. I didn’t say that you ‘did’. Some of those who I’ve discussed with did that.
That is most strange and I should like to know whom I must smack upside the head.
And the discussion, I’d end it here if it were that easy. I was just looking for a nice discussion, being tired of debating and all. It was nice talking to you all!
Fair enough.
A few last points- At the point in the novel you mention, yes, Cloud is staying out all day working- he’s throwing himself into his work. This is actually a common method of distracting oneself from one’s issues, in this case Cloud’s guilt. Later, however, he changes this and makes a serious effort to be home early and spend time with Tifa and the Kids.
The Second credits sequence of AC and ACC depict Cloud returning home after a day of work. If you watch ‘Reminiscence’ he even calls Tifa and asks her to shut down the 7th heaven the next day. He also visits Barret, incidentally, who has Cloud deliver a present to Marlene, as Barret is still an absent father, with Cloud and Tifa her day to day father and mother figures.
Incidentally, there’s really no distinction between discussion and debate, and well, you started this round of it.
Yep, that’s what I was saying. There’s always a default. Anything new? It’s up to the player to decide. Isn’t it? Default is default. That’s just it.
That’s the only way that makes sense.
Forgive me for thinking that Cloud’s affection is also taken into account. 🙂
What ‘rest of the page?’ The ‘Here are the four dates’ page?
Nope, that and the page where it says the HW scene has a Low Affection version, a Deviation.
Because the fact that something is mentioned as optional is entirely irrelevant to the fact that it happened in canon, just as Vincent and Yuffie are optional, but their joining is canon.
Oh, and they PUT THE LINE BACK IN for the International release, like I said in my first response.
Also, I do not recall that the page in question mentions that the scene is optional. I recall that is lists the entire High Highwind Dialogue sequence, including the ‘words aren’t the only way’ and including the ‘………Tifa’ at the end.
Okay, they put it back. Still, there was the ‘….’ part. So the Canon is the High Affection HW Scene, the photo still shows a reference to the Low Affection version. That’s all I’m saying. The Low HW Scene is not ignored.
You gotta be with a man to be left behind by one. And since she has a future with that man- since really, she’s only had the one- well, he came back, didn’t he?
As for expressed her feelings to him- regarding his growing self-estrangement from the world.
You’re talking about Cloud coming back at the end of AC/ACC? For her feelings, it was said that Tifa has been hurt emotionally that others won’t easily detect, then goes “but” and adds that she has told Cloud her feelings many times. You don’t think those feelings were of ‘being hurt emotionally’?
Because Nomura notoriously lies about upcoming works and this interview was given in IIRC 2002, when they were just fleshing out AC. On the other hand, Nojima, the writer, thinks they’re in a relationship, despite their hardships.
Wow… He’s a liar? Tsk tsk. Bad Nomura. Oooh. Nojima does? Where did he say it? So I can read/hear it too. 🙂
Beloved and Lover are the only two definitions which Koibito and Sweetheart have in common, and beloved is the more neutral of the two. If you even think about going down this route I will have to in the name of linguistic decency challenge you to a duel of swords.
HAHA! Forgive me for finding it funny, but i was merely confirming where you got the ‘one’s beloved’ part. And you did. Although, you did not have to challenge me to a duel. I never win in duels. :))
off course it was. Because this guy are sick and Holy is having the opposite effect.
Look, the UO says Cloud and Tifa were talking about going to meet someone in the promised land. It’s a joint effort.
I thought Cloud originally said it then Tifa joined in, that’s why it became a joint effort. But, as it turns out, only Cloud was able to meet Aerith in the Promised Land. The Church was his promised land after all, and he was able to see Aerith there, at the end of AC.
Yes, guilt for Zack, guilt for Aerith, hell, all the way back to guilt for Tifa on the bridge, maybe. Cloud has a guilt complex. He thinks things are his fault. He blames himself for shit he shouldn’t. He’s worried he will lose his new life, the life that makes him happy. The happier he becomes, the more his guilt weighs him down.
But you do not deny Nojima’s statement that no one other than Aerith could provide the forgiveness Cloud needed? And ‘failure to protect people who were important to him’ was mentioned. Couldn’t it mean ‘death of both Zack and Aerith’? Since he believed he had failed to protect them, leading to their deaths.
Not really. He is certainly part of Marlene’s family. But he is not a part of the 7th heaven unit, nor Cloud’s family. When he leaves Marlene in their care, it is noted as being the start of the ‘family of three’ with Denzel joining in later.
Similarly, he can protect his family without being part of the family unit. I count my aunt part of my family, naturally, but she’s never been a part of our home unit.
So Marlene’s part of two families? 🙂 Must be nice. Doesn’t Barret have a room in 7th Heaven? Since in CoT, he was able to sleep with Marlene the night before he left. So doesn’t that make him part of 7th Heaven? So, in CoT where Marlene said that she’ll add Cloud into the family, she was not thinking that Barret, her adopted father, was already a part of it, that only she and Tifa was the original, with the addition of Cloud? Aww… poor Barret. 🙁
That is most strange and I should like to know whom I must smack upside the head.
Good luck with finding them based on their usernames. It was at a forum at a different site. And they attack mostly MotP. Glad to know you’re not part of that bunch.
At the point in the novel you mention, yes, Cloud is staying out all day working- he’s throwing himself into his work. This is actually a common method of distracting oneself from one’s issues, in this case Cloud’s guilt. Later, however, he changes this and makes a serious effort to be home early and spend time with Tifa and the Kids.
Well, he changes after Denzel was taken in. And he had originally thought the kid was brought to him by Aerith, then Tifa adds that Denzel was brought to their home. And Cloud mostly speaks with the kids, since Denzel was able to share more with Cloud than Tifa.
The Second credits sequence of AC and ACC depict Cloud returning home after a day of work. If you watch ‘Reminiscence’ he even calls Tifa and asks her to shut down the 7th heaven the next day. He also visits Barret, incidentally, who has Cloud deliver a present to Marlene, as Barret is still an absent father, with Cloud and Tifa her day to day father and mother figures.
Oh? A second credits sequence? Why haven’t I watched that in my copy of AC? And the day off, wasn’t it Yuffie who gave him the idea, with the one she sent to him, a “Closed” sign i think? And the call was viewed from a Third person since we couldn’t here Tifa’s side. So someone must be watching the conversation from afar.
The part of father and mother figures, I’m not gonna say that it wasn’t as you said it is because that’s what is was shown in AC/ACC really.
Incidentally, there’s really no distinction between discussion and debate, and well, you started this round of it.
I view a discussion as merely exchanging opinions. Debate however, is influencing the other and proving your side. I’ve been in many so I should know how not to make things a debate. 🙂
I like Cloud and Tifa so i have a question:” page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along ”
But Aerith and Cloud are also in the pages in the Gold Soucer, dont they ?????
Actually, Tifa’s head is on Cloud’s shoulder. They were not hugging. 🙂
But Aerith and Cloud are also in the pages in the Gold Soucer, dont they ?????
It seems the writer doesn’t view the picture as something which says that the date is romantic, since it is only optional. I guess, “the text is what’s important”.
Call the post coitus closeness whatever you want.
Oooh! Vendel! 🙂
you people and long comments…it still makes me lol hard
I guess it can’t be called just comments anymore. :))
I don’t understand why some people are clinging to the Gondola picture. Some are actually arguing for C/A as canon because of that pic? With that logic, Terra is also there with the children of Molbiz… well… what’s that supposed to mean? TerraXChildren of Molbiz? PedophiliaXOedipus ComplexXOrgy? o_O
Well I dunno man. Maybe… just maybe… we should read and consider the text?
Agrees but still it’s fun seeing these crazies go ape shit around here or any other forum. just hilarious when you have nothing else to do
OMG. I can’t believe I just found out about 20th Ultimania.
I mean, I knew that Cloud-Tifa was the canon, but I just didn’t get it why SE did not post any explicit detail supports about that, now that it’s been almost 14 years after FFVII.
Instead, they kept bringing up new implicit facts about how Tifa is the most important part of Cloud’s present life through the sequels and some other compilation games (in which mostly nothing mentioned about Cloud’s feeling for Aerith other than the guilt of not being able to protect her, but oh well, I guess that’s pretty much the same as his feeling towards Zack, isn’t it?). I guess that’s how you work on business, eh? To let some things kept hidden for some time to create massive speculations and increase public’s interests. Then, spit it out in the very unpredictable moment.
Finally, the time has come for SE to finally pay their debt to us, FFVII fans, for this long, long, looo~ong debatable debate. First by making all those sequels and new games in which Cloud-Tifa’s issue was discussed further(or for some cases, repeated but using different terms and symbols such as KH 2). And now by clearly placing Cloud and Tifa on the same level as Squall-Rinoa and Tidus-Yuna.
So there, for you who was still wondering, yes, Cloud and Tifa is the official couple of FFVII.
I noticed that Aerith was there too, but then again, when we read a magazine, do we just look at the pictures and not read the captions or the articles? What are we? A 3-year old?
It just seems pathetic to me that those who call themselves Clerith kept denying the canon when they have no fact to base their so-called argument. Because after reading SoS’s article and this LTD closure article by Ryu, and (seriously) reading all the comments here, all that I could get from them is meaningless rebuttal with no new argument brought up and no examples/facts, and even if they managed to rebut some of the facts stated in the articles, they just failed to rebut the important points and keep repeating the same baseless arguments again, and again, and again, and again.
It was just as if I’m reading this (sorry if I’m using Twilight, but consider this just as names):
A: Bella is with Edward.
B: Yeah, but she could’ve been with Jacob if Edward did not come back.
A: But Edward did come back, and *fact*, *fact*, *fact*, and *more facts*
B: That’s just facts based on your interpretations. But you must admit that if Edward did not return, Bella would’ve been happy with Jacob.
See what I mean here? Instead of bringing new arguments based on facts and (at least) interpretation of the facts, they kept coming with the “what-ifs”.
And supposedly they did come up with something, it was always things that was already cleared beforehand.
I just feel sorry for them.
That’s why, guys. Now that we have the canon stated already, please just let people’s fantasy go freely whichever way they want it to go. It’s Final Fantasy after all.
I mean, we all know that Squall is with Rinoa, but we can’t stop those fans who want to make–say–Squall-Selphie or Squall-Quistis or (even if it’s possible now that Dissidia 012 is out) Squall-Lightning couple, can we?
So now that SE already stated that Cloud and Tifa is indeed the canon couple and they are meant to be together, let the Cleriths live on their dreams so they don’t, sort of, die of disappointment or something.
While the true fans of the canon couple of FFVII: Cloud and Tifa, may rest assured.
May Aerith and Zack rest in peace.
Please don’t feel sorry for us Clerith fans. I really don’t appreciate you seeing us as a bunch of delusional and self denial fans, because we aren’t. But really do you have to use Twilight in this? This just gives me the perfect image on why I dislike Cloti fans so much. Both Bella and Edward are probably one of the most bland characters I ever read. You forgot to mention that Bella is girl who needs to have boyfriend in life or else she will kill herself. And Edward is an angst turd who is stalkish towards Bella.
Aren’t you Cloti fans using you’re same arguements too? It’s a free world to believe what I believe. I like Cloud and Aerith together. Whether it’s cannon or fannon, I don’t care. I think most of the Cloti fans I’ve encouter are the more desparate ones, trying to argue their point that it’s cannon. Whoop de doo, this is fictional pixels we’re talking about right?
I think Clerith was meant to be the implications, but over time Cloti gain more popularity because ppl liked the idea of childhood friends getting together, and plus “Tifa is better looking than Aerith, so we must pair Aerith with Zack cause they are dead together.” Did you know Zack was probably one of the last characters the creators made? Also did you know Aerith was orginally meant to be in a relationship with Sephiroth?
I think because the creators left the orginal game to be more of a non conclusion with who Cloud loves, they get to tweak it around and shape it according to what the fans want.
More LT debate? AC. More Cloti? Bam AC in Blu ray with extra scenes. More Clerith? Bam KH scene. What more Cloti? Dissidia 012 and CC!
Clerith? Dissidia!
Cloti? This magazine!
It will just go on >.>
Kiki/Okapi, A few points.
Aren’t you Cloti fans using you’re same arguements too?
There’s a difference. Our arguments have facts.
It’s a free world to believe what I believe. I like Cloud and Aerith together. Whether it’s cannon or fannon, I don’t care.
Your first sentence is true. But it doesn’t make what you believe any more correct by your believing it or preferring it. Thirdly, yeah, you care. You made two posts in a half hour to respond to people responding to this article, under two distinct names.
I think most of the Cloti fans I’ve encouter are the more desparate ones, trying to argue their point that it’s cannon. Whoop de doo, this is fictional pixels we’re talking about right?
Han shot first.
Actually, wait, that might be a bit too wry. Yes. We all understand that they are fictional. So do the scholars who analyze Shakespeare, Jane Austen, etc. etc. etc. However, the content OF a story matters as to the message of that story. We’re arguing the facts of the matter, such as they are.
I think Clerith was meant to be the implications,
Which is why they killed her and had Cloud emphasize how much Tifa meant to him as the game drew to a climax.
but over time Cloti gain more popularity because ppl liked the idea of childhood friends getting together,
That, the body of evidence, that it led towards considerably more favorable versions of all the characters involved…
and plus “Tifa is better looking than Aerith, so we must pair Aerith with Zack cause they are dead together.”
Zack and Aerith were together from the absolute beginning. From the US edition of the game, Zack was Aerith’s old/ first boyfriend.
Did you know Zack was probably one of the last characters the creators made? Also did you know Aerith was orginally meant to be in a relationship with Sephiroth?
And originally, Cloud had Dark hair and Aerith had the role now given to Tifa. Oh, and at one point Sephiroth and Aerith were siblings.
Go go development cycle trivia used in place of substantive realized game evidence.
I think because the creators left the orginal game to be more of a non conclusion with who Cloud loves, they get to tweak it around and shape it according to what the fans want.
Which is why they killed of option Q and had option 3/2 say a risque line to the hero at the end.
More LT debate? AC. More Cloti? Bam AC in Blu ray with extra scenes. More Clerith? Bam KH scene. What more Cloti? Dissidia 012 and CC!
Clerith? Dissidia!
Except the ‘Clerith bits’ in Dissidia are really nothing of the sort, and in the light of 012, several become C/T bits.
Cloti? This magazine!
It will just go on >.>
It probably will. But not because the facts aren’t in. The facts are more than sufficient. We’ve concluded on far less the canon pairing numerous other games. Yet a select group of the fandom insists on setting the evidence bar far too high.
Now then, if you wish to continue in this way, please, join the forum. It’s far better suited to this back and forth.
Thank you for bringing them up, Ryushikaze-san…
That is exactly what I meant.
One more thing though,
Okapi-san, I totally don’t get it why you brought up those things about Twilight, because i literally DON’T CARE. Would you please take a look once again at my comments? There, I said, “consider this just as names”, it was just an example of how I see Clerith people debating: by bringing up “what-ifs” arguments, which clearly proves my point that it’s just pathetic (no offense). The names were just metaphorical.
It’s totally up to you whether you want to accept the fact or you just ignore them, because whatever it is that you do, the fact’s still there, and if you ask one person who really don’t know anything about Final Fantasy to listen to both the canon’s and Clerith’s arguments, or if we REALLY have the debate competition between those two, I really doubt that s/he would side to Clerith. Hell, I even doubt that you would have sufficient data and facts to prove your point to last until the third speaker.
I am sorry if it sounds so harsh, Okapi-san. But hey, that’s how life is, right? I’m just telling you the truth. It is completely up to you to face it, or to just run away from it.
I don’t care if you sound harsh, life is harsh, I don’t need anyone to tell me that.
I just don’t see you why you say a majority of Clerith fans bring what ifs and that you say you feel sorry for them.
So sorry if I’ve offended anyone with my stupid ignorant points. I’ll just go now and sob in a corner for daring to voice my thoughts here.
Here’s my take on it,
I think as a gamer I always thought Cloud liked Aerith, sure people throw in all sources of blatant proof for whatever couple is meant for each other, but who cares? Why not just enjoy the mystery of the love triangle? I personally think the creators themselves were divided on who they wanted to end up with Cloud. And if it was such a big deal why couldn’t Nomura simply just tell the world or confirm? Not let a magazine do the talking. >.>
I like to look at FF 7 as the only game, I’m not really a fan of the sequels or prequels. I’m not saying those games were bad, but I felt that the creators were simply trying to milk out more money but offering more spinoffs and more scenes for fans to see and argue about.
AC-I saw it and it wasn’t the best…but there was definetely scenes of both Cloti and Clerith. I saw it as sort of unanswered in the pairing debate.
Crisis Core-Enjoyed it as a game, saw Zack as a lovable guy but creators attempt to show Aerith and Zack’s relationship a lot more didn’t exactly seem like true love. If Cissnei never rejected Zack…well how would the story turn out?
Dirge of Cerberus- Dear god, I thought it was horrible gameply.
Okay…I’m rambling off to a tangent here…the main point is that I don’t think there is really a complete black and white answer, depends on what you see.
I could argue my Clerith points but it’s not like Cloti fans will ever listen, they’re Cloti fans.
Who do I actually prefer? Well obviously Cloud and Sephiroth 😛
Kiki/Okapi, again some notes.
Here’s my take on it,
I think as a gamer I always thought Cloud liked Aerith, sure people throw in all sources of blatant proof for whatever couple is meant for each other, but who cares?
People who actually think there’s some purpose to literary analysis.
Why not just enjoy the mystery of the love triangle?
Because ‘enjoying the mystery’ is code for ‘remain ignorant.’
I personally think the creators themselves were divided on who they wanted to end up with Cloud.
So they killed one of the choices and had him repeatedly affirm the importance of the other choice.
And if it was such a big deal why couldn’t Nomura simply just tell the world or confirm? Not let a magazine do the talking. >.>
Putting it in your sourcebook isn’t telling the world or confirming something? See, this is what I meant in the other post about setting the bar ridiculously high for some reason. What is it with this press conference mentality?
I like to look at FF 7 as the only game, I’m not really a fan of the sequels or prequels. I’m not saying those games were bad, but I felt that the creators were simply trying to milk out more money but offering more spinoffs and more scenes for fans to see and argue about.
If we leave it to FF7, Cloud and Tifa still confirm their mutual romantic feelings beneath the highwind before the end of the game. Cloud will still be pleased to learn Tifa kept looking for word of his heroic exploits. Cloud is still fighting for his very personal memory. Cloud and Tifa still only have each other, and are fighting for each other.
AC-I saw it and it wasn’t the best…but there was definetely scenes of both Cloti and Clerith. I saw it as sort of unanswered in the pairing debate.
Out of curiosity, what scenes were Clerith? What was Cloud showing romantic intention towards Aerith?
Crisis Core-Enjoyed it as a game, saw Zack as a lovable guy but creators attempt to show Aerith and Zack’s relationship a lot more didn’t exactly seem like true love. If Cissnei never rejected Zack…well how would the story turn out?
As Cissnei was never seriously considered as a love interest by either Zack or the Creators, pretty much the same.
Okay…I’m rambling off to a tangent here…the main point is that I don’t think there is really a complete black and white answer, depends on what you see.
I could argue my Clerith points but it’s not like Cloti fans will ever listen, they’re Cloti fans.
Way to be a bigot. However, if you think to have actual points, join the forums. See how well they stack up.
Cloti fan alert! XP
I just think somethings should be left out as a mystery, why must I be called ignorant to stick by my opinion about a relationship between damn RPG characters. Oh wait, of course, because you say so.
Calling me a bigot, wow. See this is what I mean…
Ac-Clerith scenes, if Aerith reaching out her hand to Cloud, Cloud’s constant guilt over her death, the fact that he stayed at Aerith’s church the whole time, I thought the relationship wasn’t at all just Cloti.
I could throw in my whole arguement, but that’s just gonna be a waste of time, cause all of you guys would just attack me and maul me to death. Sigh, no point to wasting the energy or time to argue to ppl like you. >.>
Just because you want something to be a “mystery” doesn’t mean it is. Although if we run this through a clerith translator it comes out to “I don’t want to believe C/T is canon”.
And when you state that he stayed at Aerith’s church “the whole time” when exactly do you mean? Because in the movie Tifa spends about as much time there as he does. And if you are talking about the two years before that? He spent that time living at home.
I have seen zero justification for Cloud staying at that church for an extended period of time. Given what we can piece together from the timeline and how it all plays out, anything more than two weeks would be stretching it.
why must I be called ignorant to stick by my opinion about a relationship between damn RPG characters. Oh wait, of course, because you say so. –> oh, I’m sorry. Did we? What you believe is entirely your business, but no matter what you believe or claim or say, well, sorry the truth’s still there. Unless you come to Square and threaten them into wiping the article, the truth will always be there.
Aerith reaching out her hand to Cloud –> hey, I guess EVERYBODY helped Cloud at that time. So EVERYBODY is Cloud’s lover. Huh, I’d love to see CloudxVincent then.
Cloud’s constant guilt over her death –> does it always mean love in romance context? When you sister or mother or best friend or even good friend died in front of you, while you didn’t do anything, wouldn’t you feel guilty?
I guess you wouldn’t, eh? You’d just feel guilty only if your lover died. How sad…
I could throw in my whole arguement, but that’s just gonna be a waste of time, cause all of you guys would just attack me and maul me to death. Sigh, no point to wasting the energy or time to argue to ppl like you. –> now this is how people who run out of arguments and evidences, or the ones who’s lost in a debate competition usually react. *yare yare*
Cloti fan alert! XP
You wound.
I just think somethings should be left out as a mystery, why must I be called ignorant to stick by my opinion about a relationship between damn RPG characters. Oh wait, of course, because you say so.
You are ignorant because you are not aware of the facts of the matter, either by chance or by choice.
Calling me a bigot, wow. See this is what I mean…
You said, and I do quote “I could argue my Clerith points but it’s not like Cloti fans will ever listen, they’re Cloti fans.”
You have prejudged an entire class of people. That’s kind of bigotry by definition.
Ac-Clerith scenes, if Aerith reaching out her hand to Cloud, Cloud’s constant guilt over her death, the fact that he stayed at Aerith’s church the whole time, I thought the relationship wasn’t at all just Cloti.
As mentioned, the first is no more romantic than Tifa or Vincent doing the same in the same sequence. Cloud had guilt over Aerith for a very good reason which needs no romance involved, and also felt guilt over Zack, and no,he wasn’t at the church ‘the whole time’ or even most of the time, either in the movie or in the leadup to the movie.
I could throw in my whole arguement, but that’s just gonna be a waste of time, cause all of you guys would just attack me and maul me to death. Sigh, no point to wasting the energy or time to argue to ppl like you. >.>
Spoken by someone without an argument. If you do find the courage, do join us in the forum.
“I could throw in my whole arguement, but that’s just gonna be a waste of time, cause all of you guys would just attack me and maul me to death. Sigh, no point to wasting the energy or time to argue to ppl like you. >.>”
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I’m just in a really shitty mood today, but then WHY BOTHER? You just commented saying that you’re not gonna comment. Either take it to the LTD forums or SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Bitch, did yo mother teaching you not to fuckin cuss?
OMG HOW DARE U SAY SUMTHIN LIEK THAT!11!1!1………I happen to prefer ZackxCloud myself ^.^
Ryu, all of us use facts for our arguments. Not just you Cloti fans. The interpretation is what’s different.
Then why don’t you try to make another Literary Analysis based on those that you claim facts? I mean, people wouldn’t believe to anything that we just say or claim.
But anyway, the truth is still there. So…oh well…
There are those of us who already did. But, since you have your own who did your analysis, would you really consider ours? No, you’ll make arguments on it. Then the debate starts again.
So, should I still? Guess not.
Again with the holier-than-thou act.
Please don’t just say or claim that you did. prove it.
*sigh* I feel like talking to a baby.
Making arguments on an analysis doesn’t mean she hasn’t considered it. A back and forth of analysis and criticism is basically how this process actually works.
Analysis is presented. Criticism and often counter analysis presented.
NEW Analysis presented. The problem with ‘those who already did’ is that they haven’t released new analysis. Many are releasing the analysis of others, and worse, already debunked analysis.
Facts are facts. And you Playing the “interpretation” card is basically admitting that the “facts” are not as important as your conclusion.
You twist words. Nice attitude.
Anyway, there are those facts. But those sentences/phrases/paragraphs can’t be taken to mean only one thing for every person. I’m sure you’ve encountered people who would believe the opposite of what you believe a sentence to mean.
Since you played the conclusion card, with different interpretations of the premises comes the different conclusions on basically just one thing.
Twist words? Give me a break. I can read you like a book.
And just because someone says up is down or left is right doesn’t give them any validity. I don’t care how they “interpreted” their situation.
Not just the interpretation, CR, but the quantity and quality of the facts. In one single sourcebook, I can quote that the head writer knew Cloud and Tifa would live together, the they, along with everyone else, would be ‘where they belong,’ that Cloud and Tifa have a future together. That Tifa is like any woman left behind by a man, and that one of her roles in the world is that of someone’s beloved.
I can cite eight instances where it is said Cloud and Tifa confirmed their mutual feelings at the end of the story. More if we include the lifestream event.
I can cite at least four instances of references to ‘Cloud and Tifa’s family’ in various phrasings.
I can cite that Cloud is happy living in the 7th heaven with his family- and getting happier-, and that his happiness makes him guilty.
I can cite that after AC/C, Cloud resumes living together with Tifa and the kids after reaching a commune with Tifa.
None of these things are interpretations. All are official statements. I haven’t even touched on a number of them.
By Contrast, C/A supporters do not have quite the solid foundation of facts to pull from. That’s what I mean by ‘our arguments have facts’ We have a grand ole pile of them. We can make arguments entirely out of facts. C/A arguments are considerably less concrete. To the point where it seems the majority of C/A arguments are not pro C/A as much as anti C/T.
Wow! I am still amazed by how you deliver your rebuttals and arguments, Ryu-san! Saikooooooo desu!
I still have to get back to you on the forum. Damn, how time flies. Haha!
Anyway, it’s funny hearing you say that when just months ago I was thinking the same thing. Hahaha!
That ‘future together’ part is intriguing. Enlighten me. :p
Those which you’ve said you can cite, obviously official statements, are facts, I agree. But I don’t think we have the exact same interpretation. Do we?
Speaking of citing, there is that one official statement which says how much Aerith is very much important to Cloud. That’s all I need. :p
And I would beg to disagree. You believe yours is solid, as do we. What is your basis on an argument being concrete? I guess it differs from mine since I’m not you.
Oh well.. time to get back to the forum. If I still find your post. Haha.
So one uncited official statement that says Aerith is important to Cloud is enough for you to….what? Think C/A is canon?
How utterly arbitrary. And you claim you are not working form a conclusion?
Dear me. Should I cite it now? Ryu didn’t cite one, so I opted not to. Ugh. I meant that it was enough for me to believe in C/A. Proving that it’s canon is another thing: it concerns way more citations.
And why the fuss? It’s my interpretation. It’s clearly different from yours. It’s not a conclusion. :p
You “believe” in C/A? And because of that belief you don’t feel the need to prove them canon?
Suddenly all those “clerith cult” jokes are running through my head.
And sweet cakes you can’t seem to grasp that just because it’s your interpretation doesn’t mean it has any validity.
That is what we call a “misinterpretation”.
“And I would beg to disagree. You believe yours is solid, as do we. What is your basis on an argument being concrete? I guess it differs from mine since I’m not you.”
What basis our argument to be concrete? Oh please, despite SoS’s list of facts and evidences, none of which had never been defeated, there’s FF 20th Ultimania which already stated the truth.
Everyone. I mean literally everyone, even the ones who know nothing about Final Fantasy would say that the page up there clearly says that FFVII canon couple was already decided. And it’s Cloud and Tifa. Period.
You might argue about the pictures but as I mentioned earlier, what are you? A three-year-old? It’s really time for us to level up from picture/coloring books to the actual books. So, read.
So say, nag, yell whatever you like. Unless you manage to threaten SE to wipe the article, the truth will still be out there.
No use denying that the sun rises on the east, because it does.
First off. I was merely pointing out our differences is saying that an argument is concrete. You see ours as inconcrete, like we see yours. We’d have rebuttals, that’s a given. It’ll just continue unless SE flat out says “Cloud is in love with Tifa, not Aerith.” Now that is what I call a very solid proof for C/T.
And yeah, the statement’s existence is true. But, one page, one statement can not stop years of debates, can it? We can still debate on that page, and what the statement meant.
You’re very quick to assume that everyone says that C/T is canon. But you’re absolutely wrong there. There are still those that don’t think so. So watch your words.
And I do read, thank you very much. So much that i know a difference when a moment is meant to be romantic or not.
And my dear, threats are not needed. Yes, the truth is out there. And so are the deceptions.
First off. I was merely pointing out our differences is saying that an argument is concrete. You see ours as inconcrete, like we see yours. We’d have rebuttals, that’s a given. It’ll just continue unless SE flat out says “Cloud is in love with Tifa, not Aerith.” Now that is what I call a very solid proof for C/T.
It’s what I call the ‘press release mentality.’
You believe Cloud is in love with Aerith without need for this amazingly direct declaration, no? So why do you require it for the reverse?
And yeah, the statement’s existence is true. But, one page, one statement can not stop years of debates, can it? We can still debate on that page, and what the statement meant.
You can, but it’s a very silly proposition. The entire page is concerning itself with the idea of the romantic confession. Ergo, the statement is about their romantic confession.
You’re very quick to assume that everyone says that C/T is canon. But you’re absolutely wrong there. There are still those that don’t think so. So watch your words.
And there are those that don’t think Evolution occurred or that we landed on the moon. Just because there are still people who believe a thing doesn’t make that belief valid.
And I do read, thank you very much. So much that i know a difference when a moment is meant to be romantic or not.
So do I. And I say it’s very clearly romantic, and can point to the narrative cues indicating why.
-“I was merely pointing out our differences is saying that an argument is concrete. You see ours as inconcrete, like we see yours.”
Except you have already stated your “concrete argument” is based solely on “belief”. And not things like reading comprehension.
-“It’ll just continue unless SE flat out says “Cloud is in love with Tifa, not Aerith.”
Yeah like putting it in the 20th anniversary Ultimania on a page titled “for the one I love”. Something like that right?
“It’ll just continue unless SE flat out says “Cloud is in love with Tifa, not Aerith.” Now that is what I call a very solid proof for C/T.”
Now this statement finally proves that you are still just a little kid who are still in the level of concrete thinking and not the abstract one.
Oh well, I see why you still keep insisting that the fact doesn’t exist. Boy, do I seriously feel sorry for you now. *sigh*
“First off. I was merely pointing out our differences is saying that an argument is concrete. You see ours as inconcrete, like we see yours.”
Firstly first, that page is NOT an argument. Your babblings from the very top, now THAT is argument. The page was published by SE in the section of “The One I Love”. While none of the caption mention anything, I repeat ANYTHING about Aerith, it clearly and elaborately explain about Tifa AND Cloud.
When you rebutted using the idea of “default date” now THAT is an argument because it is just an ASSUMPTION. Remember, no matter how convincing your assumption is, it will never be reality. It may be a reality for YOU, but it will never ever be the real reality.
Now I really don’t get it why you keep denying something that has been a general fact. As I told you, it’s like you keep denying that the sun rises in the east, that’s just so pathetic.
“And yeah, the statement’s existence is true. But, one page, one statement can not stop years of debates, can it?”
Second, YES. If the one who published the page was the CREATOR.
“We can still debate on that page, and what the statement meant.”
Third, please do. We’ll let you bring as many arguments as you can, but it still will never change the truth.
You’re very quick to assume that everyone says that C/T is canon. But you’re absolutely wrong there. There are still those that don’t think so. So watch your words.
Again, it is not merely an assumption anymore because after that page being published, they ARE the canon couple.
And that statement of your in bold is just an empty opinion. It didn’t prove that Cloud and Tifa are not cannon. It only proved that you just can’t accept the truth.
“There are still those who doesn’t think so”? Maybe. But there are A LOT more who believe in that page. And if I were one of them, I would totally prefer to believe in something that was published by the CREATOR than listening to a nobody’s empty arguments. Oh wait! I guess I AM one of them and whoa! I DO.
“And I do read, thank you very much. So much that i know a difference when a moment is meant to be romantic or not.”
Ck ck ck… I am wondering at what level is your reading comprehension. I guess my baby sister reads better that you do.
“And my dear, threats are not needed. Yes, the truth is out there. And so are the deceptions.”
THANK YOU SO MUCH. Yes, the truth is out there -> the article on “The One I Love” which shows and explains the canon couples of Final Fantasy, on which Cloud and Tifa are, not only their pictures but also explanations about the confirmation that their feelings match.
And so are deceptions –> those who still deny the truth. Now this one is no problem, because as I said, there are still some rational Cleriths who still stay in their ship and still they accept the truth. They just love being in their ship.
The pathetic ones are the likes of you. The ones who just can’t accept the truth so you keep running away from it. Moreover, yelling and preaching to people as if you think that they will believe you in the end because you sound more convincing than the article.
Boy, are you just so sad. *sigh*
Quite literally, Reunion Files says that Tifa and Cloud have complex emotions tied to their future together. I’m not sure that it a 100% word for word quote, it is from memory, but that is the idea. It’s at the start of Tifa’s section.
And yes, we do have different interpretations. But these simple facts aren’t interpretations. I haven’t even offered an interpretation of these facts, apart from saying they form a web of evidence that on their own present a realized snapshot of the fictional reality.
As for “Aerith is very much important to Cloud” which citation is that, in particular? Because I don’t doubt she is. I also don’t doubt she’s important to Tifa, Yuffie, Vincent, Red, Barret, Reeve, and Cid. I don’t doubt Zack is important to Cloud as well. And if we are discussing ‘important’ quotes, there are still several ‘Tifa… Important woman to Cloud’ quotes in existence.
So that Aerith is important to Cloud may be all you, personally, need, but it’s woefully insufficient to establish the proposition that Cloud was romantically interested in Aerith, and still insufficient to knock down the idea that he is Romantically interested in/with Tifa, both of which must be established for the standard C/A position to be valid. What does the singular ‘Aerith is important’ quote tell us? That Aerith’s important. That’s it. That’s something we already knew. And it’s not presenting anything more than a single data point.
A truly concrete argument is one that is supported by the preponderance of the evidence, to remove all reasonable doubt of its validity. Evolution is a concrete argument explaining the diversity of life as we know it today. Gravity is a concrete argument explaining why things go down.
Dear Okapi,
I guess what I mentioned before is quite clear, eh? But oh well, okay… I’m gonna explain it to you again.
The truth is out.
I said it’s up to you whether you want to accept it or just run away from it. There are some Cleriths who still stick with their ship but accept the truth anyway.
What makes your kind of Cleriths pathetic is that even when the truth is right there in front of you, still you keep denying it and just insist into making people believe what you believe when the fact’s out and yours is just empty assumption. Yet you still push, push, and push. I feel like I’m watching a frustrated little girl nagging because none of the adults seems to pay attention to her and her dollhouse.
The other thing is that you keep repeating the same assumptions without even providing any evidence and fact. I’ve seen most of Cleriths’ arguments and they are ALL the SAME. Even from before until after the truth is out, you still repeat and repeat and REPEAT the SAME argument over, over, and OVER again. Even more, WITHOUT any evidence supporting your ideas. When someone answer your arguments, you just keep repeating your previous arguments again like nothing happened, and when someone rebut you with stronger arguments and stronger supporting evidences, and you seem to be losing, suddenly you get angry and start playing the holier-than-thou act.
Now THAT is what I reeally feel sorry for. *sigh*
Double posts deleted.
thank you, Ryu-san.
Vendel: I formed my belief from what I read. Get the point?
And you’re stuck on that one page. Seriously, taking the photo itself. It’s a photo of a scene that can have a different version. “Their feelings match” + Page title: “For the one I love” = C/T is canon. Nice. Whatevah floats your boat babe.
Heroine: Gosh, is it really me? If you say so hunn. If you don’t get what I mean, then you haven’t read it well either. Read my posts all together, then maybe you can get the connection of what I’ve been saying.
Ck ck ck… I am wondering at what level is your reading comprehension. I guess my baby sister reads better that you do.
The pathetic ones are the likes of you. The ones who just can’t accept the truth so you keep running away from it. Moreover, yelling and preaching to people as if you think that they will believe you in the end because you sound more convincing than the article.
Whoa! Just whoa! What are you? A teenager? Grow up and stop talking that way. Insulting me won’t do you any good. It would just make me believe that you’re somehow so tangled up in that happy web of yours that you won’t even listen.
Ryu, what the hell happened here?
I’ve been trying to be civil. But no, things just had to go this way. I posted what, two sentences? And here comes the barrage. It’s a comments page, I get it already. So why turn things into a debate?
-“I formed my belief from what I read. Get the point?”
And? I am simply telling you that you are wrong.
-“Their feelings match” + Page title: “For the one I love” = C/T is canon.
Taken by itself that would be enough. But taken with everything else it is just one of many conformations. It’s not even the icing on the cake. It’s the big “FU” candle that sticks out and slaps you in the face. Get the point?
Wow.
Chill bro. Like you said, that is enough. Well, we have that one statement too. Plus the confirmations we also believe in, then we’re just the same with each other. The only difference is the couple we ship and our interpretations on different statements. That’s all I’m saying.
And with that, I’m keeping away from you. LOL.
So is that your last defense? Just say everyone is a shipper defending their OTP?
The ability to recognize canon does not a shipper make.
Ryu-san, if you please care to delete my comment up there at 10:38 pm? That did sound stupid. It was my emotion talking. I didn’t want CR to be hurt more that s/he already is. I’m so sorry. 🙁
And THIS is my real answer:
“And you’re stuck on that one page. Seriously, taking the photo itself. It’s a photo of a scene that can have a different version.”
Again, it is a page on a pretty much important magazine for Final Fantasy Fans and it was published by SE, the CREATOR of Final Fantasy itself. So yeah, it does have the power to wipe out any debate about anything. Since our previous debate was (again) just mere assumptions. As perhaps you missed the important points on that page, let me sum up to you what the page said.
As Ryu mentioned, the page is entitled:
“For the One I Love”
“Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.”
Now pay attention to the bold statement. The pictures and the captions on that page pretty much explained what the statement meant. Now pay attention to the caption of the date picture.
“Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior“.
Did it mention anything, ANYTHING about the date being supposed to be with Aerith? No.
Now IF SE really meant to allow any interpretation, they would certainly add “…however the default means of the scene was Aerith.”
But then again, did they? No.
It’s “…who comes around…dependent on Cloud’s behavior.” period. Nothing followed. Nothing about Aerith was mentioned. Nada. Zinch.
But the HW scene:
“The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”
There was indeed two versions of the scene, I tried them both. However, the still ended up confirming that their feeling match. So then again, we don’t need any interpretation because the page already said it as it is.
Furthermore, the lack of mentioning Aerith on the page and the subheading itself pretty much explained that the “Secret Date” scene was part of “…the love of the protagonists develop“. Therefore, it was not the person of which the page was mentioning, but the scene, because that scene was indeed part of Cloud’s love development.
And the next part of the subheading?
“Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.”
This gave a lot clearer view of how we supposed to see the page. “occasionally separated” does NOT mean “eventually separated”.
“…but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.”
And what this statement proved? Oh yeah, it was pretty much in line with “…before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match
Now I don’t want to say why they put Aerith’s photo there, because that’s just gonna be my assumption, and my assumption is not worth mentioning anyway. But the words? The page clearly stated that it was Tifa who’s Cloud’s “…The One I Love”, along with the stories other canon couples. Now that is what makes them the canon couple of FFVII. Not because we interpreted just from the picture of them being on the same page with other couples.
If you think that this is interpretation. No. This is semantics and discourse. When you read something do not read just as parts but read as a whole. Pay attention to the context in which the sentence was, then you know the real meaning. Reading as parts will only lead you to misconceptions.
Well, if my expressions somehow sounded too harsh for your delicate feelings, I offer you my apology. Because again, I pity people who seem to desperately prove something that has been a general fact/truth. Moreover, merely preaching without real evidences, and still desperately trying so hard to be so convincing.
That is just so…sad.
I wasn’t hurt. More like insulted. But, that’s the thing of the past now. I don’t keep grudges. It’s a waste of time. 🙂
I actually reviewed my debate with Ryu back in the Forum. I kept on mentioning that the page referenced in the photo led to it saying that there’s a deviation to the HW scene. So, it’s just like the date scene: it’s optional and up to the player’s control. It’s just like saying, whoever Cloud loves is dependent on which scene happens.
Well, if my expressions somehow sounded too harsh for your delicate feelings, I offer you my apology. Because again, I pity people who seem to desperately prove something that has been a general fact/truth. Moreover, merely preaching without real evidences, and still desperately trying so hard to be so convincing.
That is just so…sad.
That doesn’t sound apologetic. You could’ve tried to strike the last few sentences out. Never have I tried saying that here because I kept in mind that it should be a civil discussion. At least, I’m not so caught up in my own thoughts that I’d ignore what the other side is trying to say to me.
I’ll leave you to your happy world. 🙂
“I actually reviewed my debate with Ryu back in the Forum. I kept on mentioning that the page referenced in the photo led to it saying that there’s a deviation to the HW scene. So, it’s just like the date scene: it’s optional and up to the player’s control. It’s just like saying, whoever Cloud loves is dependent on which scene happens.”
Again with the assumptions. You have no evidence supporting this assumption unfortunately. Did you actually read my comment up there? If supposedly this is an actual debate competition, this argument won’t even be considered exist by the jury.
It’s not like people will believe what you said more than what SE stated, right? Because (again), the page clearly stated the fact as it is. There was not even any teeny tiny room for assumptions.
“At least, I’m not so caught up in my own thoughts that I’d ignore what the other side is trying to say to me.
I’ll leave you to your happy world. 🙂 “
It’s not because I’m stubborn. It’s because that “other side” you mentioned only gave assumptions and not fact. So why should I even count a nobody’s opinion while the creator themselves have already stated the fact clearly? Now IF I do, then I’m just plain idiot.
Oh well, if you still don’t get it after my bit by bit, words by words re-explanation, I guess you just don’t, and I’m not gonna waste anymore time than this to explain the same thing again and again and again to a person who doesn’t even want to listen.
At least, I tried though, but now I’m getting tired. If you want to keep assuming that Cloud is with Aerith, suit yourself.
Nevertheless, it still doesn’t change the truth that Cloud and Tifa has been declared as the canon couple by their CREATOR. The page and the words are still going to be there.
Assumptions will only be reality only to the person who assume them. It will never ever be the real reality.
I did read. But not the whole comment. It’s been said numerous times already.
What I see in this article is that Ryu made his own interpretation of the whole page, putting together the title, the photo, and the text. What he had here is a conclusion towards his beliefs according to what he has interpreted based on what was presented. Is it not?
Frankly, I don’t even get how we ended up here. It started with my comment saying that our arguments for Clerith is also based on facts which we interpreted, much like you. It was you who came and said that we are wrong. Then, this happens. It was a comment, not even an argument. Are you that excited to prove that your side is right that you’d really want to broadcast my belief is wrong? Are you so kind that you want to save me from my false reality? Is that the issue here, Heroine?
Do note that I didn’t even give a good try in citing or giving explanations or rebuttals. I kept defending that our methods of forming arguments are pretty much the same. Although you believe mine is wrong, the same way I see yours.
Ship what you ship, and I’ll ship mine. And that’s that.
I did read. But not the whole comment. It’s been said numerous times already.
What I see in this article is that Ryu made his own interpretation of the whole page, putting together the title, the photo, and the text. What he had here is a conclusion towards his beliefs according to what he has interpreted based on what was presented. Is it not?
We’re dropping dangerously close to postmodernist arguments here, and that is one of MY berserk buttons.
There’s a reason why I linked to the full translation and further encouraged everyone to not simply take my word on the translation. That’s because my conclusion isn’t based on belief. It is based on a rational examination of the evidence. I argue from a point of neutrality towards the conclusion the evidence leads in.
Do note that I didn’t even give a good try in citing or giving explanations or rebuttals. I kept defending that our methods of forming arguments are pretty much the same. Although you believe mine is wrong, the same way I see yours.
That’s the thing. I don’t see this as being about belief. I see this as being about doing detective work. This is forensic linguistics, not religion. I presume Ven and Heroine see it the same. What we believe should be determined by what is there. We should not evaluate what is there based on what we believe or would have be true.
Ship what you ship, and I’ll ship mine. And that’s that.
Here’s another thing where we seem at cross wires. This isn’t shipping. Not for me. This is about the facts of the matter, not which pairing is preferred.
But you do say that the case for Clerith is concrete, at least in your mind. Would you explain why it is, and what evidence leads you to the conclusion that it is concrete?
“I did read. But not the whole comment. It’s been said numerous times already.”
Ah, I see. Maybe the fact that you didn’t actually read it was what makes you haven’t really been able to understand my point. I see, so that’s why.
“What I see in this article is that Ryu made his own interpretation of the whole page, putting together the title, the photo, and the text. What he had here is a conclusion towards his beliefs according to what he has interpreted based on what was presented. Is it not?”
I believe I myself have additional reasons to why I believe that the page clearly stated that Cloud and Tifa is the canon couple.
“Frankly, I don’t even get how we ended up here. It started with my comment saying that our arguments for Clerith is also based on facts which we interpreted, much like you. It was you who came and said that we are wrong. Then, this happens. It was a comment, not even an argument. Are you that excited to prove that your side is right that you’d really want to broadcast my belief is wrong? Are you so kind that you want to save me from my false reality? Is that the issue here, Heroine?”
In fact, a “comment” is equal as “opinion” which leads to another term “argument”. Now, CleritRaven, if you really, REALLY claim yourself basing your arguments on facts and evidence, then show us.
I did not intend “save” you from your false reality. I don’t care whether you want to swim or just sink in it. Your business.
What I do care is that you yourself broadcasted your false reality, leading people to your mere belief even though it’s quite….not believable, which makes me not really worried that those people will believe you in fact. It’s just unbearable for me to see a person debate with only mere arguments and no evidence.
“Do note that I didn’t even give a good try in citing or giving explanations or rebuttals. I kept defending that our methods of forming arguments are pretty much the same. Although you believe mine is wrong, the same way I see yours”
Again with the persistent opinions. Now this is why I keep rebutting you with more arguments, because your opinion doesn’t prove anything.
“Ship what you ship, and I’ll ship mine. And that’s that.”
Really? Shipper? That is what you want to be? Well, suit yourself,
but I’m sorry, I don’t consider myself as a shipper. Shippers are just for those who base their belief on mere belief (or even imagination). I base my belief on evidences, and official statements by the creator, and general facts.
I actually reviewed my debate with Ryu back in the Forum. I kept on mentioning that the page referenced in the photo led to it saying that there’s a deviation to the HW scene. So, it’s just like the date scene: it’s optional and up to the player’s control. It’s just like saying, whoever Cloud loves is dependent on which scene happens.
Okay, your premise that there is a variation in the Highwind scene does not lead to your conclusion that whoever Cloud loves is dependent on which scene happens.
Firstly because the situation is a Quadrary (four state) issue, not a binary one. Cloud can possibly love both, neither, or either women. Simply not loving one doesn’t mean he automatically loves the other.
Secondly, as I keep stressing, noting that a deviation occurs does not automatically mean there’s no official version. In fact, one should conclude the opposite if one wants to take the deviation into account, since the page mentioning the deviation lists the mutual feelings being confirmed as the normal course of events, and the deviation of the low version is relegated off to the sidebar. This fits with all the other instances where it is said- even excepting the FTOIL page- 7 times over several books that Cloud and Tifa’s feelings have been confirmed. One of these is in Tifa’s Crisis Core profile, discussing her story beyond Crisis Core. It doesn’t mention If. It says the feelings are confirmed.
The High Highwind scene is one of the most notable scenes of Final Fantasy 7, according to the very same guide the FTOIL page and the page mentioning the deviation are from. Yet you would argue that according to SE, it’s not recognized as the official version.
I keep advising people to argue in favor of their position. Not against the opposition. However, you seem to be asserting your position and arguing against the opposed position. That’s a bad idea.
Sasuga, Ryu-sama! Always with excellent rebuttals, strong arguments, and clear evidences.
Now this is what counts in a real debate.
Like I said, who Cloud loves depends on player control, is what I get from the page.
I’m not arguing that it’s not the official version. I’m saying that there is also the deviation, which is also officially existent, though not recognized often.
From my comment that started this, I was arguing that we base our arguments on facts, not on this article. Can we be clear on that?
And Ryu, you have a very zealous fan. :p
Like I said, who Cloud loves depends on player control, is what I get from the page.
But this page doesn’t say that. Nor does the page listing the deviation. You’re getting from the page about romance that says Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings that the player can choose? I’m sorry, but that logic does not follow. HOW are you getting that?
I’m not arguing that it’s not the official version. I’m saying that there is also the deviation, which is also officially existent, though not recognized often.
But if this is the official version, then the deviation is entirely irrelevant.
The official version of the Sister Ray event is Vincent comes along. All deviations where he doesn’t or you never got him are irrelevant.
From my comment that started this, I was arguing that we base our arguments on facts, not on this article. Can we be clear on that?
This article very clearly takes a side, but that doesn’t mean the facts presented on the page are any less facts.
And Ryu, you have a very zealous fan. :p
It appears I do.
“Like I said, who Cloud loves depends on player control, is what I get from the page.”
Now on what basis do you believe that the page says this? Please don’t just state your empty opinion without any supporting details and evidence. That’s just gonna be (AGAIN) assumptions.
“I’m not arguing that it’s not the official version. I’m saying that there is also the deviation, which is also officially existent, though not recognized often.”
Why do you say it’s still official, while you yourself stated that it’s “not recognized often”? The fact the it needs to be “recognized” first proves that it is interpretation.
“From my comment that started this, I was arguing that we base our arguments on facts, not on this article. Can we be clear on that?”
You keep mentioning that Cleriths also based your arguments on facts, yes they are. Though I see some of their arguments have been broken down and they couldn’t bring them up again due to the lack of evidences, but at least they are. As for you, you keep telling people that, while you yourself keep bringing up your belief, assumptions, and opinion only without providing any evidence. So how am I supposed to believe that you really based your belief on evidences, not just some hallucination that you consider exist?
“And Ryu, you have a very zealous fan.”
I am impressed by how Ryu-san delivers his arguments.
As he also mentioned, we consider this not just about mere belief like “heaven and hell exist” but linguistics studies.
You can’t just go out there in a group of scholars and suddenly scream “I believe Galileo Galilei was wrong! The Earth is not round!” without providing any evidence now, can you?
Ryu, what the hell happened here?
I’ve been trying to be civil. But no, things just had to go this way. I posted what, two sentences? And here comes the barrage. It’s a comments page, I get it already. So why turn things into a debate?
I am guessing much of this comes from you stating that a single quote stating Aerith was important was sufficient for you to conclude Clerith, and requiring a bluntly literal declaration that Cloud and Tifa are in love to conclude C/T. The apparent double standard is a berserk button for quite a number of people.
No, I said it was enough for me to believe in Clerith. Proving that it is canon is another thing. The problem here was that they over reacted. You have your ‘starter’ for believing in C/T, so do I. The facts that follow to prove it is a separate discussion. Ain’t it?
The thing in a debate is that you criticize the argument. Not the belief itself. The arguments/rebuttals is the main concern, is it not? Since to debate is kind of like proving your side is correct. At least, that’s the way I see it.
No, I said it was enough for me to believe in Clerith. Proving that it is canon is another thing. The problem here was that they over reacted.
Both sides might be at fault here. Even I thought you were saying it would take the press release for you to accept C/T but C/A was hunky dory. And believing a thing and demonstrating it to be true are different, yes. However, rationally, what should lead one to believe a thing is true should also be that which allows one to demonstrate it as true to others.
You have your ‘starter’ for believing in C/T, so do I. The facts that follow to prove it is a separate discussion. Ain’t it?
But the facts are the starter. One must begin with facts. Then one must examine and analyze those facts, then propose an explanation for those facts. Facts are the very heart of the matter.
The thing in a debate is that you criticize the argument. Not the belief itself.
The belief is part of the argument, being the assertion that is being evaluated on the merits of its evidence. Now, yes, you should not attack the person making the argument or holding the belief, but it’s no breach of etiquette to call the hollow earth theory absurd on its face.
The arguments/rebuttals is the main concern, is it not? Since to debate is kind of like proving your side is correct. At least, that’s the way I see it.
Well, yes and no. The purpose of a debate is to discover the truth. This is done by attempting to provide evidence in favor (not prove, if we’re being pedantic. Proof is for math and alcohol) your own position, countering the evidence presented by the other side, and both sides re-evaluating their positions and their arguments as time goes on. But again, the key part is the evidence. I can make up pie in the sky ‘just-so’ stories and offer hypothesis after hypothesis, but these needs facts, evidence to ground them in reality. Without the facts, it’s nothing but sophistry.
That’s why I say the facts, and especially the context matters. Your facts need to make a coherent sense not just with each other, but with the greater whole. I find many Clerith arguments to be lacking this greater context, both those for Clerith and against Cloti, often assert things regarding Cloud’s mind without evidence and occasionally directly contradictory to it, for example. Facts are the heart of the matter. The more facts that can be provided without need for interpretation or assumption, the better for a particular argument. C/T is swimming in facts. We don’t just have facts, we have an abundance of them. To the point that the C/A long term strategy has always involved trying to denounce these, and still does.
But this page doesn’t say that. Nor does the page listing the deviation. You’re getting from the page about romance that says Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings that the player can choose? I’m sorry, but that logic does not follow. HOW are you getting that?
Since you very much told me that the date is optional, the referenced page also states that the HW scene is optional, I figured SE might have been giving us a hard time to get that part. It’s an interpretation.
The page showed the High affection version, that’s what the text is about. Then the page referenced the other version, wherein no confirmation took place. Basically, if we look at it that way, yeah, the player can choose. I’m not confining myself to that one page.
But if this is the official version, then the deviation is entirely irrelevant.
The official version of the Sister Ray event is Vincent comes along. All deviations where he doesn’t or you never got him are irrelevant.
Can you cite one, just one, wherein SE says the HA version is official/canon? I didn’t say it wasn’t official, but I’m not saying it is. I just didn’t want to touch that part because of a whole new argument.
If the deviation does not affect the argument in any way whatsoever, then it is irrelevant. But if it does, its not irrelevant.
This article very clearly takes a side, but that doesn’t mean the facts presented on the page are any less facts.
Again, I was clearing up the fact that my comment to your post was about our side using facts for our arguments too. I’m not saying that this article was not based on facts.
It appears I do.
It got me thinking if you had a fan club. :p
Both sides might be at fault here. Even I thought you were saying it would take the press release for you to accept C/T but C/A was hunky dory. And believing a thing and demonstrating it to be true are different, yes. However, rationally, what should lead one to believe a thing is true should also be that which allows one to demonstrate it as true to others.
The press release was about making the debate stop, I think. Because, if SE did say clearly that C/T is canon, then no Clerith fan would debate that Clerith is canon anymore. Although, it won’t stop us from supporting C/A, we won’t be arguing anymore. That’s what I was saying with the ‘press release’.
And yes, of course. If a person believes one thing, then she/he must be able to demonstrate its truth. But sadly, both our sides have their own ‘truths’.
But the facts are the starter. One must begin with facts. Then one must examine and analyze those facts, then propose an explanation for those facts. Facts are the very heart of the matter.
Peraps I wasn’t very clear. Yes, the belief should start with a fact (mine being the statement where Aerith is important to Cloud), then I support it with other facts. Debates are there for the back and forth examination and analyzation of the facts presented.
The belief is part of the argument, being the assertion that is being evaluated on the merits of its evidence. Now, yes, you should not attack the person making the argument or holding the belief, but it’s no breach of etiquette to call the hollow earth theory absurd on its face.
If it is really hollow, then yes, you may call it absurd. But, I’ve yet to see someone prove it hollow.
Well, yes and no. The purpose of a debate is to discover the truth. This is done by attempting to provide evidence in favor (not prove, if we’re being pedantic. Proof is for math and alcohol) your own position, countering the evidence presented by the other side, and both sides re-evaluating their positions and their arguments as time goes on. But again, the key part is the evidence. I can make up pie in the sky ‘just-so’ stories and offer hypothesis after hypothesis, but these needs facts, evidence to ground them in reality. Without the facts, it’s nothing but sophistry.
That’s why I say the facts, and especially the context matters. Your facts need to make a coherent sense not just with each other, but with the greater whole. I find many Clerith arguments to be lacking this greater context, both those for Clerith and against Cloti, often assert things regarding Cloud’s mind without evidence and occasionally directly contradictory to it, for example. Facts are the heart of the matter. The more facts that can be provided without need for interpretation or assumption, the better for a particular argument. C/T is swimming in facts. We don’t just have facts, we have an abundance of them. To the point that the C/A long term strategy has always involved trying to denounce these, and still does.
I agree for the most part. Presenting a side, getting it countered, offering another analysis… it could go on and on. And I don’t think either of our side is willing to give in. LOL.
Now, the last part confuses me. Where did you get the idea that our arguments have no evidence?
Just a thought, the world of FF7 is very complicated, especially with SE providing ‘hints’ or symbolic meanings in its compilation. So, interpretations are key if you would really like to understand it. Yes, SE would say one thing, but being the skeptical debater that you are, would you not look for other pieces to truly verify something?
“Since you very much told me that the date is optional, the referenced page also states that the HW scene is optional, I figured SE might have been giving us a hard time to get that part. It’s an interpretation.
The page showed the High affection version, that’s what the text is about. Then the page referenced the other version, wherein no confirmation took place. Basically, if we look at it that way, yeah, the player can choose.”
The date is optional. The page stated that also. But did the caption below the HW scene said that this scene in optional? No.
It said, “…before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.” and no matter the affection rate, in the end they still confirmed their feelings.
“I’m not confining myself to that one page.”
The fact that the page was an official statement from the creator and it clearly stated that Cloud and Tifa is canon makes it stronger than any other evidence.
“Can you cite one, just one, wherein SE says the HW version is official/canon? I didn’t say it wasn’t official, but I’m not saying it is. I just didn’t want to touch that part because of a whole new argument.
If the deviation does not affect the argument in any way whatsoever, then it is irrelevant. But if it does, its not irrelevant.
Already mentioned several times.
I myself do not pay attention to only that one and only HW scene, but (again) more to the whole article.
“Again, I was clearing up the fact that my comment to your post was about our side using facts for our arguments too. I’m not saying that this article was not based on facts.”
Again, comments are opinions. in other words, arguments. All your opinion and merely-argument-postings showed that apparently you didn’t.
“It got me thinking if you had a fan club. :p”
Maybe he does.
“The press release was about making the debate stop, I think. Because, if SE did say clearly that C/T is canon, then no Clerith fan would debate that Clerith is canon anymore. Although, it won’t stop us from supporting C/A, we won’t be arguing anymore. That’s what I was saying with the ‘press release’.
And yes, of course. If a person believes one thing, then she/he must be able to demonstrate its truth. But sadly, both our sides have their own ‘truths’.”
I believe that the article was equal enough to a press release. It clearly stated their version of the truth after all. Maybe you think that it’s not because you just can’t accept it, because it was not in line with your belief. Therefore you keep denying it. But I dunno. This is my assumption. It can be right but can also be wrong.
However, nobody can really rebut the article or provide enough and non-debatable evidences that the article is not quite right.
Since you did not give any well-supporting evidence, I still consider you truths as assumptions.
“If it is really hollow, then yes, you may call it absurd. But, I’ve yet to see someone prove it hollow.”
It’s quite far from the article but oh well, if you talk about the interpretations, and not the official statements, the Clerith’s reasons have been defeated by SoS’ Literary Analysis. And as far as I know, none did one to rebut him, instead they kept going back and repeating the same arguments. –> this if you talk about interpretations.
But then again, may point is not about interpretations, because in the end, all interpretations have been overpowered by the fact that the article itself clearly and undeniably stated that Cloud and Tifa is the canon couple of FFVII.
The date is optional. The page stated that also. But did the caption below the HW scene said that this scene in optional? No.
It said, “…before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.” and no matter the affection rate, in the end they still confirmed their feelings.
What I was saying is that I didn’t take just the page itself, but also the referenced page.
I beg to disagree. The LA version states that no confirmation took place. It was “apathetic and ends short”.
The fact that the page was an official statement from the creator and it clearly stated that Cloud and Tifa is canon makes it stronger than any other evidence.
Again, I’m not gonna rely on just that statement. Skepticism requires that I dig around for more to support it.
Already mentioned several times.
I myself do not pay attention to only that one and only HW scene, but (again) more to the whole article.
If it was, then show me. Don’t just say it, prove it (I remember you saying that, or something like that).
You’ve confined yourself in that argument, fine by me.
Again, comments are opinions. in other words, arguments. All your opinion and merely-argument-postings showed that apparently you didn’t.
You’re saying that what I’ve been posting here is basically just my opinion? Whew. I was defending our side by saying that we also use facts. My next posts were addressing your comment regarding my post. Of course it would not use FFVII facts because I was defending MY post, using MY facts and not the Clerith facts.
I believe that the article was equal enough to a press release. It clearly stated their version of the truth after all. Maybe you think that it’s not because you just can’t accept it, because it was not in line with your belief. Therefore you keep denying it. But I dunno. This is my assumption. It can be right but can also be wrong.
However, nobody can really rebut the article or provide enough and non-debatable evidences that the article is not quite right.
Since you did not give any well-supporting evidence, I still consider you truths as assumptions.
Now I see why we got into this topic. I wasn’t even rebutting the article. I was rebutting Ryu’s statement that there was a difference in our arguments based on facts. Frankly, if I gave one evidence, more comments would come and it’s getting old.
Let’s get back to the first topic and not put the article in the issue. LOL. I was saying that our arguments have facts, not just yours, and the difference is the interpretation of those facts.
It’s quite far from the article but oh well, if you talk about the interpretations, and not the official statements, the Clerith’s reasons have been defeated by SoS’ Literary Analysis. And as far as I know, none did one to rebut him, instead they kept going back and repeating the same arguments. –> this if you talk about interpretations.
But then again, may point is not about interpretations, because in the end, all interpretations have been overpowered by the fact that the article itself clearly and undeniably stated that Cloud and Tifa is the canon couple of FFVII.
I said that the facts, official statements if you would, can have different interpretations to people. I’m not gonna comment on SoS’s analysis not being rebutted. As far as I know, someone had already tried.
And. We’re not talking about the canon couple of FFVII. We were talking about the arguments made by each side.
Okay. I started to get really tired, because you don’t seem to get my point at all.
I said that my concern was the fact that one particular article is the official statement that Cloud and Tifa is the canon couple, due to their picture AND the language context on that particular page. Now I ALREADY explained about what meaning the article carried using language studies, particularly semantics and discourse, which means that in order to fully understand the meaning, we read it as a whole, as one article. I mentioned it on my previous post, so I won’t repeat it. THAT is my evidence I showed you, you just didn’t see it.
Okay. Here’s the point. You started this debate by saying that your side was using the same amount of facts and evidences as we do. You claimed that you had used the same amounts of evidence as we did. However, as the debate was going, I didn’t see you give any. Instead you kept claiming that you did, as for our side, we cited, we mentioned some articles, we gave you the actual evidences.
Maybe this debate started because you responded to my first comment about Cleriths’ arguments, but then again apparently you’ve been proving to me that I was right instead. Because, discussing about the actual notion of your purpose, by not having given us any evidence, you seem to fail to prove your rebuttals to me.
Now, the next time I comment, it will be after seeing or reading that you fully understand my point. I’m tired of repeating the same thing again, and again, and again, not because I don’t have any more arguments or evidences, but because the opposition side just couldn’t seem to get our points.
Ryu-san, really, I don’t know how you manage to keep your patience. 🙁