A big thanks to Hitoshura who has now finished translating the new installment from the On the Way to a Smile book; the Lifestream White and Lifestream Black chapters.
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A big thanks to Hitoshura who has now finished translating the new installment from the On the Way to a Smile book; the Lifestream White and Lifestream Black chapters.
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Lmao
“Beloved”? you changed “koibito” into “beloved?” I’ve seen lover, boyfriend, girlfriend, and sweetheart as definitions before but never “beloved.”
I wonder how you all came up with that.
I know you all realize that it’s supposed to be translated as
“Cloud is the woman’s friend, lover.” Of course you all know that. After all, it is why you changed it, right?
But either way, bad translations on that part. Tch, tch, tch.
It was fun, guys. Thanks for the very many laughs and great reads.
Same here…
I dont know… isnt “beloved” “saiai” in japanase? I admit I am only a begginer. The only translation of “koibito” I have seen is lover, boy/girlfriend or sweetheart too.
I dont have a problem with “beloved” it just doesnt seem right
Thank you very much for the translation, though! *hugs*
Correct, saiai is beloved. It’s 最愛の. Well, I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t see 最愛 I see 恋人.
And 恋人 definitely isn’t 最愛の, so that must be a mess up on their part.
Thanks for the new translations Hito.
As far as the importance of the direct definition of Koibito (LTD), though sweetheart might’ve been more specifically correct due to the more common dictionary definitions, I don’t see a HUGE difference between sweetheart & beloved, and they’re often interchangeable in English.
Sweetheart:
1) One who is loved.
2) Used as a familiar term of endearment.
– Informal.
a) A person regarded as generous or lovable.
b) Something cherished for its excellent qualities.
Beloved:
1) A person who is much loved
2) Regarded with much love and tenderness
The choice in translations is likely due to the fact that it’s one of those incredibly problematic words due to the definition similarities & differences between Koi (恋) & Ai (愛), and trying to get the correct connotation across into English.
There’s a bit of insight about the two words & their meanings at the following link for anyone who’s interested.
http://www.hello-online.org/blog/h_p46/index.php?showentry=590
X
That’s funny, I thought it was “koi_bito”
Guess there’s no space now :mon:
Anyone with a grasp of English vocabulary knows “beloved” is synonymous with “lover” and “boyfriend” and unless they’re bawwing over the exact word not fitting for their ship, they’d see the exact same romantic meaning and context is there. The only thing that is “bad” is your sad attempt at trying to inject the LTD into every piece of media you find.
Koi_bito? Why would anyone add a “_” to anything?
The thing is, it’s Japanese context, not English. Simply because I choose to translate correctly doesn’t mean I’m trying to “baww” over any ship. It just means I can handle the truth.
@hitoshura, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a few “shippers” as yourself throw a dictionary definition at the Cloud/Aerith fandom side more then once. So, are you sure you should be saying such a thing right now? Doesn’t that come off a bit hypocritical to you in the slightest bit?
Besides, I didn’t use the dictionary.
“@hitoshura, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a few “shippers” as yourself throw a dictionary definition at the Cloud/Aerith fandom side more then once. So, are you sure you should be saying such a thing right now? Doesn’t that come off a bit hypocritical to you in the slightest bit?”
I’m not a “shipper”, thanks.
I mean the English translation in a dictionary, when used for translating. You keep bringing up the various translations as if that’s the only word you can use, which is my point. I don’t say that dictionaries is wrong/can’t be trusted. Just that when translating, sometimes you can use a different word than the one in the dictionary. But you seem to confine yourself to the notion that “beloved = 最愛の” only.
No, I’m sorry. You’re a shipper. And if you’re not, you surprised me.
Why use some other definition when the definitions given are “lover, sweetheart, girlfriend, and or boyfriend” for the Japanese word?
Yes, beloved can be associated with lover in an English dictionary. But we’re reading Japanese context, and should translate the actual words given in the Japanese context as their true definitions.
Well, colour yourself surprised.
As for why this choice was made:
– ‘Boyfriend/girlfriend’ sound too light-hearted for this word.
– ‘Lover’, in English, has more sexual/adulterous connotations.
– ‘Sweetheart’ (which was my initial choice) is more of an old-fashioned word, while the original Japanese isn’t.
After I had finished, ‘beloved’ came up during editing and proofreading through discussing it with others, and obviously that’s what it ended up as finally.
“Yes, beloved can be associated with lover in an English dictionary. But we’re reading Japanese context, and should translate the actual words given in the Japanese context as their true definitions.”
If we’re reading the Japanese context, then the English shouldn’t matter. How is ‘beloved’ not a valid translation, given the meaning (not the translation) of the original Japanese word?
Have you got no complaints about ‘stigma’? Technically, that’s not the ‘true definition’ either. It should be a ‘carved seal’. But translation shouldn’t be about following the dictionary to the dot.
“Besides, I didn’t use the dictionary.” Why bother when Google translator works so well… **sigh**
@hito, you’ll find most likely no other words/translations will come under question. You know they were looking for this one.
Translation isn’t always about putting what the dictionary said and putting that there.
Thank you for the translation, once again dude. You deserve a cookie.
Thanks for the translation and I agree with fairhearstrife, it’s the only word that will be scrutinized. =p
I like how Ash totally gave up and moved onto bugging someone else.
Thank you so very much for the translation!
Sephy just reached a new level of creepiness. Never fails to freak me, that bastard >w>
“Her beloved”, “Her beloved”, “her beloved”, “her beloved”, “her beloved”….
Sounds right to me. I don’t know Japanese, and I have nothing against Clerith (I like it =D ), but “her beloved” flows better contextually than “her loved”. It made me “aaaw”.
Symbolism FTW
Well, it’s incorrect, Manni. If the word was “beloved” it be 最愛の not 恋人.
But as you can see the complete sentence is;
クラウドは女の友人であり、恋人であり——
Now, where do you see 最愛の in that sentence? If anyone can point out where in that sentence it says “saiai” please tell me, I would love to see that word in this sentence.
But as you all know -which I’m sure you do- 恋人 is koibito which means lover, girlfriend, boyfriend, and or sweetheart. Those are definitions you can pick from. But making up your own definition of 恋人 is just wrong and isn’t what translators should do.
I guess it’s a matter of opinion over which word “flows” better, though.
For me, the correct translation of 恋人 “flows” better and sticks to the true meaning of the sentence.
But I guess most people like fake translations better…..
Beloved is a viable translation for koibito. Check a random house J-E dictionary circa the 50s.
Since I guess everyone relies on dictionaries, do you happen to have any links I can see?
Why don’t you find your own dictionary if you’re going to nitpick? Hito wanted to make the story flow instead of be a choppy literal translation. Most of the time translations really can’t be literal anyway if you want them to make any sense.
Also, in the ENGLISH LANGUAGE beloved can, depending upon context, MEAN THE EXACT SAME THING AS LOVER!
So stop trying to paint hito as some Clito (I use Clito instead of Cloti for a reason, figure it out yourself) with an agenda. He is NOT a shipper. The vast majority of peeps on this site are NOT shippers either. We discuss the narrative and all new information given to us and try to understand everything the way it was intended. Most people don’t give two flips who Cloud ends up with, we just like to laugh at your ridiculous theories.
FFVII is not a love story anyway, so maybe you CxA peeps need to chill out.
If you expect a translator to do a 1:1 translation of any document in any foreign language, you can run it through Google, =D. A translator’s first task is to translate a piece, its second is to make it sound and read well. For the reasons Hito posted above, it looks sound to me.
c wut I did thar? I used the Engrish word ‘sound’, which can be interpreted in many ways but would never translate to Dutch like that.
*headdesk*
I meant “her beloved” sounds better than “her lover”.
I realize that. *raises eyebrow*
It does. I think it also paints it in a stronger light. Something that is beloved by you is something that is very, very important to you.
While lover can be used to describe, say, the person you are cheating on your significant other with.
In my opinion beloved was the best choice. Maybe if Cloud and Aerith were actually bonking during the two weeks or so they knew each other, but they didn’t, so lover doesn’t really fit. But beloved paints us with a picture that shows that Cloud is of great importance to her, perhaps more so than any other person.
Beloved is better.
“I know you all realize that it’s supposed to be translated as
“Cloud is the woman’s friend, lover.”
I’m pretty sure beloved is closer to what Nojima was inferring there. Instead of going Japanese-English dictionary, a Japanese-Japanese dictionary will have koibito as: 恋しく思う人。相思の間柄にある、相手方。. I’m not saying it can’t mean lover, but given the context I’d say the definition is something like “one’s beloved”
I’m pretty sure if Nojima wanted the reader to read 最愛の (saiai, beloved) he would have said 最愛の instead of saying 恋人. Why would he say 恋人 but “mean” 最愛の?
Sure, Cloud being Aerith’s lover could also mean Cloud is beloved by Aerith. That’s clearly intended if someone is your lover. But in this sentence 最愛の is never used, nor is it meant by the word 恋人.
You’re missing the point of my post. I’m not saying the word koibito isn’t the word Nojima intended. What’s in question is the implication within the translation. Here’s the thing: teaspoon is a unit of measure as well as a spoon for tea. Koibito is not solely indicative of lover, it can mean sweetheart. And there is no doubt Aerith was sweet on Cloud. In fact, that’s never been in question. I’m just saying that her referring to Cloud as “lover” is not as likely as her referring to Cloud as someone dear to her, as in sweetheart/beloved.
There is more to good narration and translation than direct definition. Implication and inference are big things. I can say I love movies, but that doesn’t mean I am the lover of movies. Get where I’m going?
Believe you me, I miss no point in this discussion.
It’s not a matter of Aerith being “sweet” on Cloud. The entire book is in third person. So this sentence has gone farther then what Aerith thinks.
“Cloud was her friend, her beloved — ”
First of all the sentence is in present tense, “was” is supposed to be “is.” Second of all, it’s not Aerith speaking or thinking this, it’s the Author stating a fact.
Since the correct translation is “Cloud is the woman’s friend and lover” it’s not just how Aerith feels it’s what the author is stating.
So the author has done exactly what he wanted the reader to understand. Nojima wrote “Cloud is the woman’s friend and lover” and he meant exactly what he wrote. That Cloud is Aerith’s friend and lover. Simple as that.
I don’t know about you, but where I come from, lover usually indicates a romantic relationship.
The fact of the matter is, beloved cannot be a possible word in this sentence because it’s never used in Japanese.
First mistake you’re making is mixing up narrator and author. They aren’t synonymous. But fine, you want to infer “lover” as the intended implication. That’s up to you. However, the translation, as it stands, is not incorrect. I know, I know, you say koibito can’t mean beloved because the Japanese never use it. That’s astounding. They never do huh?
“First of all the sentence is in present tense, “was” is supposed to be “is.””
クラウドは女の友人であり、恋人であり――大切なものの象徴であり、守るべき存在だった。
It ends in the past tense (だった). The part you quoted before (while leaving out the end) wasn’t the present tense, but a conjunctive form (であり). It leads on to the next part, with the final verb giving the tense for the sentence.
“The entire book is in third person.”
The book is written in a restricted third person narration. It’s obviously not first person (except occasional comments/thoughts), but it is restricted to what the central character thinks and feels.
I dont understand your logic of using the translation as valid points when you yourself is trying to disprove the translator’s words.
Go you.
As someone told me, the line literally says “to the woman cloud is friend and lover” so it may have been translated that way because of the pov.
In translations, context matters. If you wanted a literal translation of each word, throw it around babelfish.
^This.
If anything, “sweetheart” doesn’t nearly carry the same romantic/emotional context in English that the word “beloved” has, if we’re speaking of Aerith’s emotions and feelings towards “loving” Cloud.
@fairheartstrife
The translation as it stands is translated in a biased manner.
@Ash
Biased how? I mean beloved is a pretty strong emotional connection. I’m not sure where you get the bias. Unless you were looking for “OMG proofz” for Clerith canon (which given your other comments I think you were) there is no bias.
Actually, I think “beloved” is a proper word because “lover” let implied a relationship and we all know that a “lover” relationship [unfortunatelly] never really happened between Cloud and Aerith [screw Seph for this], depite their feelings for each other.
Aerith loved Cloud, that’s what the phrase wants to say. Both words fit there but I honestly think “beloved” fits better because it accentuate the feeling of love. See…
“Clous is Aerith’s beloved” -> meaning Cloud loves Aerith
“Cloud is Aerith’s lover” -> meaning he is in a loving relationship with her
At least that’s how I see it
What feelings, Lily? And no, Lily, X is Y’s Beloved does not mean X loves Y, it means Y loves X.
I don’t think it’s fair to judge the validity of the trans, Ash, we’re lucky we are getting them at all, whether the word is incorrect or whatever shouldn’t matter, if you know what it means fair do’s but well it was translated as beloved and that’s that. It is still nice sounding and well yeah lol
Thank you for the trans anyway lol. I like the part with Aerith when she slightly considers making her own remnants, and of course Sephiroths obsession with Cloud makes my inner yaoi fangirl squee 🙂
It is fair to judge the validity of a translation. They’re not accurate with that sentence, and are changing the facts so a fandom will be happy with it.
Good point, though. I do know what it’s supposed to be translated as. And I guess it really shouldn’t matter what it’s mistranslated as.
….now you’re just making baseless accusations. The TLS translations are used widely. Or have they just suddenly become biased overnight because of one word?
Widely?
I’ve always seen mistranslations here. It’s just in this instance of mistranslating, it has gone too far and it irks me.
Hahahaha.
it has gone TOO FAR because it says “beloved” instead of “lover”. That’s just hilarious, I’m sorry.
CONTEXT. Third person doesn’t necessarily mean it is third omniscient. Take a basic lit course. Jesus, read a book. What exactly do you mean “it’s gone beyond Aeris’ pov”?
Care to give some examples?
Come ON people.
Sweetheart = Beloved in English. It’s just a choice of term.
Quit BAWWWing over a single word because it’s not dictionary wrote to the translation of Koibito.
“Saiai No” means “beloved” because the “No” at the end indicates possession of the noun that comes after it, as in “My beloved something” Koi/Bito split apart is Love/Person specifically indicating a person for whom you have said feelings – making it a more appropriate term in the Japanese text.
The difference in translation to English between “sweetheart” and “beloved” is so minimal, that it’s really no cause for issues. We’re not going to change a translation just for those of you that want to see the implications of the LTD with the word “sweetheart” instead of “beloved” – especially when they’re exactly the same in context.
X
“Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos.”
I guess it’s a matter of opinion on whether or not 恋人 can also mean 最愛.
Thank you hitoboy.
Much of this is focused on Sephiroth. I thought it was going to be a separate thing, two separate stories, but it seems like even Aeris’ parts are driven by Sephiroth. She’s wandering around trying to fix his shit, that’s about it.
Sephiroth’s parts have the actual details of geostigma though, which is great!
And seriously, the Clephiroth vibes keep getting stronger. LOL
Gleich klatscht et hier, echt jetz.
Hmm, German(?) Well, now, sadly I do not speak that language.
Thanks for the translation, Hito. 🙂
Lol koibito. Who would’ve ever thought such a word would be controversial.
— “Beloved”? you changed “koibito” into “beloved?” I’ve seen lover, boyfriend, girlfriend, and sweetheart as definitions before but never “beloved.”
I wonder how you all came up with that. —
‘Beloved’ is so close to ‘lover’, it could be used interchangably. As opposed to whatever koibito supposedly meant when the word first popped up in the compilation as certain parties claimed.
I wonder how that one came up.
I’m not too sure on who you’ve been talking to, but I’ve always known that 恋人 means lover, boyfriend, girlfriend, or sweetheart. That’s inarguable. But like I said above, in Tifa’s 恋人 statement it’s speaking of her character traits and Cloud’s name is never mentioned.
Seriously? You’re going there? Ok then. The woman in CoL White is Ilfana. Aerith’s name isn’t mentioned after all… Common sense. It’s like Visa. Accepted everywhere.
Hmm, possibly. But I doubt that.
Why not? Aerith is never mentioned specifically and if we’re playing blind and dumb, we can infer that Ilfana is the Ancient of which the narrator speaks. We never are told HOW she died in-game and therefore, Sephiroth could very well be responsible for it. You know…I’m warming up to that theory…
Actually Ash is right.
In Tifa’s sentence there was just one person being mentioned – Tifa.
In Aerith’s stance there are two people – wheter Aerith name is explicit or not.
The frase here is clear “ONE loves TWO” while in Tifa’s sentence is just “ONE loves.” Tifa loves someone/thing, that’s for sure but not what or whom. The “woman” loves Cloud, that’s clearly said ^.~
The ‘frase’, Lily?
And yes, Aerith loves Cloud. Cloud is her beloved.
In Tifa’s sentence, she is someone’s beloved. Common sense would tell us she is the beloved of someone in AC, and would further tell us it is the man who she is living with, who she raises children with, to whom she is an important woman, the man who believed his life could succeed because he was doing it together with her.
This is a very simple thought process, folks.
Oh, so it’s not really the koibito thing then. It just comes down to the mentioning Cloud.
The diction used in a free indirect narration weighs more than the creators’ words when it comes to character description, then.
And Tifa is a lover/girlfriend to no body. Lovely. 🙂
You choose to admit this now?
Admit what?
Admit that koibito only works for CxA?
Admit that I think some are confused enough to weigh creative expression presented in a literary work over the actual words spoken beyond the bounds of narrative by the creators themselves to establish authorial intention?
You are obviously not familiar with sarcasm…
If the Cetra says it/thinks it, then it must be so. Never mind interpretation or the assload of canon material already established to cement the relationships.
Clerith is a fanon pairing, and there is nothing, I repeat–nothing–wrong with liking it. But manipulating compilation to suit the relationship with hidden messages, unseen “spiritual” events, and redefining established words/history… I’m sorry, i just can’t follow that logic.
“Actually Ash is right.
In Tifa’s sentence there was just one person being mentioned – Tifa.
In Aerith’s stance there are two people – wheter Aerith name is explicit or not.
The frase here is clear “ONE loves TWO” while in Tifa’s sentence is just “ONE loves.” Tifa loves someone/thing, that’s for sure but not what or whom. The “woman” loves Cloud, that’s clearly said ^.~”
As I said =D
Actually, “One is loved by Two”and “One is loved by _____” would be more accurate. So says the Captain.
The translations are fine, going apeshit over one word is silly. We know what it means, Hito knows what it means too, “beloved” and “lover” are pretty much the same.
You want literal translations you gtfo to the fish that is babel.
lol babelfish 8D
Apeshit?
I’m only stating my opinion on a public forum for fans that like FINAL FANTASY VII. What’s wrong with that?
The fact that this is not just about “your opinion” and I think you very well know that.
Ohh, yes it is solely about my opinion. My opinion being that I know for a fact that the translation says “Cloud is the woman’s friend and lover” and I’m guessing because my opinion differs from all of your own opinions that makes me “apeshit.”
I knew it should we should have used ‘sweetheart’ D:
Et tu, Mako?
LOL clearly :mon:
Sweetheart seems so…blah. Beloved implies cherishing. And Aerith clearly cherishes Cloud. Lover can be used in the same context, without that ai (sexual) nature, but seeing “lover” would of course sprout the” OMG spirit!sex bs again.
You chose well, hito.
The fact that interpretation/translation is not the direct same thing as “defining” is going over some people’s heads isn’t your fault.
You should have definitely used one of the true definitions of koibito, that’s for sure.
I agree with Fairheartstrife, though. Sweetheart is so empty.
But just because Nojima said Cloud and Aerith are lovers doesn’t mean that they have…”spirit sex.” A loving relationship is a lot more then just sex, you know.
Absolutely. And I contend along with you that love was shared between Aerith and Cloud. Between Aerith and all of Avalanche. I’m just not seeing where the translation is misrepresenting as you seem to imply.
Beloved is a true definition of koibito. Or at least that’s what the translators back in the 50s kept putting in their books.
Where has Nojima said Aerith and Cloud are lovers? I’d like a link to a published interview, please.
Apparently all it takes is for Aerith to imply herself as Cloud’s beloved and so it means Cloud loves Aerith.
Oh of course, how could I not have seen that? Silly me. Love has to be reciprocated, after all. :monster:
Let’s also not point out the deliberate conflation between “third-person limited narrator” and “Nojima,” I think that would deflate our rabid’s ego too fully :wackynod:
TIFA AND HER STANDPOINT WITH KOIBITO DOES NOT COUNT. D ;
Oh, obviously. Nothing counts when it’s with Cloud and Tifa, otherwise it would present that tricky matter sometimes referred to “evidence” by those fact-based factinistas against the OTP.
Don’t forget Zack and Aerith.
Oh, obviously, Zack is clearly too girly to be a part of the OTP.
Wait a minute, isn’t Cloud the one that cross-dresses and passes for a more beautiful female than either Aerith or Ti- HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT I SUCK COCKS
Tifa’s too manly for Cloud. She wears the pants, remember?
Obviously. Any relationship where the gender roles are reversed, by definition, cannot be the OTP. Q.E.D.
Plus, it’s incest because Tifa views Cloud as her own son. D :
Obviously. Tifa’s feelings for Cloud couldn’t possibly be anything but maternal.
STOP SAYING OBVIOUSLY.
But of course. Tifa’s jealous ways were just a phase. Which, by the way, jealousy means the relationship will never work out.
Obviously. :monster:
The translation is fine and adheres to the overall meaning it’s trying to convey. People are just butthurt because they want their shipping fantasies to become reality.
The fact that they chose only that word out of several ‘mistranslations’ says more about them than it does about the integrity of our translators.
Oh god..seriously you rabid cleriths just be happy and thankful that Hito translated it..you’re acting ridiculous..
Thanks Hito, I enjoyed reading it^^ though I was expecting it to be longer and I so wished for Zack to appear *Zack fangirl* xD
Why am I rabid? Because I dare come on to a public forum / site and speak my opinion?
Can we not take others opinions here? Please say so and I will happily be on my way.
No, because you can’t understand that “beloved” and “sweetheart” are the exact same thing. Hell, if anything “beloved” has more emotional, romantic context today than sweetheart, in terms of conveying one’s feelings towards another.
Anyways, keep up fighting the good fight. I’m sure those rabid shippers appreciate you raising inane hell over a word that means the exact same thing. You’re truly an expert!
Inane? Hell? Fight? Rabid?
Why does my opinion raise inane hell? The only possibly way my opinion could raise inane hell is if people can’t understand or allow others to state their own opinions.
Because it’s stupid, insulting translations when you yourself have no grasp of the Japanese language at all, or how to translate?
And it’s also stupid to insult the use of “beloved” when it means the exact same thing as “sweetheart” or “boyfriend” in the context of the story and Aerith’s view of Cloud.
But go on. State your opinion. Just don’t expect people to see such flagrant, rabid shipping stupidity as valid. You’ll get called out when you start saying ridiculous crap.
I’m not sure you’re a Clerith, but rabid you certainly are. You, I think, are getting in quite a massive tizzy about a single word in a translation of an entire book, misunderstanding the distinction between Narrator and Author, misunderstanding the narrative style, and attaching more wight to one line in a story than multiple ‘word of god’ statements on the subject, such as the line from the prologue book where to Tifa, Cloud is a Koibito.
If you are a Clerith, though, I must ask… why is Koi_bito suddenly one word with meaning when it is expressed in Kanji again? Your friends were quite insistent that it was not, and now they have all changed their tune.
I mean, it seems only fitting while we’re on the subject of Bias.
You may address your reply to this in the forum proper.
Whether or not I am a Cloud/Aerith supporter is irrelevant. Because I would still stand by my statement either way. Going by what everyone’s posts say here, I’m an agent of chaos. And that’s all that matters. It just so happens I’m an agent of chaos with a differing opinion then your own.
I’m sure you don’t know who my friends are. So you will have to ask them yourself if you want answers. Because all I have is my own opinion.
“where to Tifa, Cloud is a Koibito.”
Where does this come from?
No what the issue is that you are making a stink over something that is in itself irrelevant. How does beloved not mean the same thing as any of the other supposedly listed definitions of koibito? How how how how how?
It means the exact same thing! Hito isn’t trying to deceive anyone.
Also the fact that you are picking a fight over koibito, of all words in the story, raises red flags.
yes you are a rabid, coming here, moaning and criticizing the translator without even thanking him first!! Seriously where is the difference between lover and beloved?? lol Why making a big deal of Cloud being stated as a lover and friend to Aerith? We all knew that Aerith loves Cloud, Love Triangle remember?
Unlike Tifa being called a koibito to Cloud, not the other way round! That’s a huge difference. I remember you cleriths claiming koibito doesn’t mean lover etc etc, it’s so funny seeing you guys now claiming it’s TRUE LOVE because it has sth to do with Aerith lmao Niiiice
MissSugar, lots of fans like to claim that Aerith doesn’t love Cloud. And that she only loves Zack. Why is it that everyone is switching sides and saying they’ve always known Aerith loved Cloud?
Tifa has never been called a koibito to Cloud. She said to be like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle. But never has Tifa been called a koibito to Cloud.
Please, I ask, don’t put me with that group. I’ve always known Tifa has been a sweetheart. The statement never said to who, though. Unlike this quote from the CoL/W novella that actually mentions Cloud’s name and has the right definition of koibito.
-She said to be like a mother (to Marlene and Denzel)
a sweetheart (to Cloud, who else???!!)
and a close ally in battle (Cid, Yuffie, Barret,…)
That’s it. Her role is pretty clear, some people just refuse to accept it. I mean come on you’re really claiming Tifa isn’t described as a koibito to CLOUD? Who are you thinking of?? She IS Cloud’s koibito!
And Aerith is never mention in CoLW… so we’re back to it being Ilfana. Seriously. Common sense. It’s your friend. Also, right definition? How is Nomura’s definition in regards to Tifa wrong?
I’m seeing the problem being that, although “beloved” most certainly professes deep and abiding love for Cloud, it is not in the illicit (spirit!sex) way that certain members of fandom just can’t handle.
@MissSugar
So, now we can think of names with “mother, sweetheart, and ally?”
Well, in that case
Mother (Marlene, Cloud, Denzel)
Sweetheart (johnny, Barret)
Ally (all of Avalanche)
How was Tifa ever a ‘sweetheart’ to Barret? Which definition of ‘sweetheart’ are you using?
Doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. I’m using Barret and Johnny as examples of who I can also fill the blank with.
Then what was the purpose of your comment?
How was Tifa a ‘sweetheart’, in the Japanese context, to Barret?
At this point it’s not about the translation and is delving into LTD/ shipping territory, so may I suggest those comments get directed to the proper forums.
Sorry but just throwing out names to distract us doesn’t work. Barret and Tifa’s relationship was never romantic, and Tifa never had feelings for Johnny. Johnny eventually moved on anyway, or did you miss that?
Kind of reminds me of how a while back people were trying to pair Tifa with Zack just to appease people into liking Clerith because they thought we only argued the side because of Tifa. XD
LOL!!! Tifa as Barret’s sweetheart that’s hilarious =D oh well of course Tifa was described as koibito to Johnny, yes since he’s such an important character worth to be mentioned in an interview in order to describe Tifa’s role. Thank you for entertaining, wow this article has over 120 responses lmao
Lawl. Tifa is a sweetheart to Barret and Johnny?
@hitoshu How was it not about Barret? The sentence doesn’t give any name. So if you say it means Tifa is Cloud’s koibito (even though no name is mentioned) it can also mean Barret, Johnny, or Rude have Tifa as their koibito.
@MissSugar, Johnny was obviously some kind of character to Tifa seeing how he appeared in CoD and in the anime movie. Every one of the 120 comments are all for me too.
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“Lawl. Tifa is a sweetheart to Barret and Johnny?”
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What’s so “lawl” worthy about that? Barret and Tifa share an adopted child? Supposedly that means you love someone. And if I remember clearly Tifa and Johnny do have something.
But why is Barret/Tifa so funny to you all? I think they’re a great couple.
Is it because he’s black?
:facepalm:
No, it’s because the game demonstrates absolutely no signs of romantic affection between Tifa and any of the other characters you mentioned. Moreover, Johnny explicitly says in CoT that his romantic feelings for Tifa are unrequited. Not only that, but we know Tifa loves Cloud, none of those other characters. So yeah, please take your head out of your ass. Or keep it there. Whichever works for you. Your logic fails as much as you do.
Bwuahahahahaha… **wipes eyes** Oh, that’s rich. And I maintain that it is Ilfana in CoLW and SHE is Cloud’s lover because, as stated since no name is mentioned, it can be anyone.
I never said ‘it means Tifa is Cloud’s koibito’. I said how does that make sense? When have they ever had any romantic implications between them?
This doesn’t say that ‘the woman’ is a lover to Cloud, either. It just says that to the woman, that’s what Cloud is. Nothing about his feelings. What does that mean?
From what in the Compilation, precisely, do you draw the inference that Tifa possesses romantic feelings for Barret, Johnny or Rufus? Note that only direct quotes from the Compilation or interviews with creators will be accepted.
Is it because he’s black?
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Oh sure, I don’t like Barret and Tifa together because he’s black. -sarcasm- If you’re implying that Barret and Tifa share an ‘adopted child,’ you’re forgetting about Cloud. And they live together. It’s quite obvious that Barret and Tifa have no romantic relationship, as does Johnny or Tifa.
In all honesty the only relationship Tifa and Barret have are surrogate parents (having no romantic ties what so ever) and Cloud is the uncle. Barret chases all of Marlene’s suitors away when she is old enough; Tifa does the punishments whenever Marlene or Denzel step out of line; and Cloud teaches Denzel that being a dike and emo is okay.
Ash, you brought up the subject in the first place, so please demonstrate how it was ever about Barret or Johnny or Rude.
Also wtf now you’re playing the race card? Honey please…
o_O You’ve got to be kidding.
Yes Barret, because that makes PERFECT sense….
By the way, you can knock out Johnny because in Case of Denzel, Johnny states that his love for Tifa is unrequited…
Who Tifa loves is not arguable….if she’s described as being a koibitio, you bet its Cloud, that girl has eyes for no one else…
It does make perfect sense. At least when I use your logic.
I can’t seem to find where it says his love is unrequited. Well, times change I suppose.
Go read of Case of Denzel than…I’m staring at it in my book…
“Somewhere along the line, the FORMER object of his UNREQUITED love had become a mentor of the heart he could look up to.” – Case of Denzel, Official English Translation, page 24.
Also, if you go to Costa del Sol and Tifa’s not in your party, she goes to talk to Johnny…the next morning he has dialogue indicating that he was rejected… “as long as your happy tifa”
Where is the Barett and Tifa ship proof? Share…I’ve played FF7 100 times…
Please, enlighten me. Where does my logic not make sense…is it because I’m not pulling it out of my ass like you?
“Ohh, yes it is solely about my opinion. My opinion being that I know for a fact that the translation says “Cloud is the woman’s friend and lover” and I’m guessing because my opinion differs from all of your own opinions that makes me “apeshit.” ”
No, it’s you trying to discredit our translations with your bullshit.
So now the correct translations are “bullshit.”
Well, that is your own opinion whether or not the true translation is “bullshit.”
Please, feel free to speak your mind.
Considering you have no grasp on the Japanese language and can’t even tell the difference between present and past tense or the difference between complete third person or restricted third person narration, the only “bullshit” here is you.
You have no grasp of literature or Japanese. Your rabid opinion is hollow And that’s me speaking *my* mind.
@Makoeyes987, Why so serious?
Why so stupid? :mon:
lol Mako that’s a good one. XD
In English “beloved” = “sweetheart/lover/ koi fish”
We didn’t try to change the meaning nor is this translation incorrect. So yes, bullshit on your part.
Also, BAWWWWWWWWWWW.
Have we gotten any examples of our other “mistranslations” yet? :monster:
Those mistranslations don’t matter! Only koibito.
And that now is the right time to use the ‘right’ definition, even though the translation is accurate. Also, koibito for Tifa doesn’t count. Creator’s word = invalid.
:needmonsterinhere:
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Why so stupid? :mon:
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Why so rude?
Probably because you didn’t actually bother to answer his post, you just evaded his criticisms :mon:
Eck. It’s weird because mentally the spirits possess the ability for thought, but they all seem frozen emotionally.
The point that seems to come through again and again is that they both have to focus on the living (namely Cloud) to keep their souls and memories from becoming completely overtaken by the collective lifestream. It also makes the afterlife sound like a horrid place where one’s soul is literally stripped away over time.
It’s strange that SE went to all the trouble of hitting you over the head with Zack/Aerith scenes in CC and at the end of AC and then in the short stories Nojima writes all she can think about is Cloud.
Not really that strange. We know Aerith had feelings for Cloud as well, and given that this is before AC and the crisis that occurred in it, of course she’ll be thinking of Cloud a lot. She appeared to him several times during the film. Clearly she cares and thinks about him.
I don’t see how this minimizes or diminishes anything she felt for Zack.
That’s because CC is PAST.
Aerith clearly surpassed her relationship with Zack in FF7 already…
She fell in love with Cloud then, what’s wrong on that?
She fell in love with Cloud because of her feelings for Zack, and because as she admits, she kept seeing Zack in Cloud.
But FFVII is the past now as well.
Thirteen people all jumping on one agent of chaos. How flattering.
I’m glad to see my opinion means so much.
You know, you’ve used Joker quotes twice now and it’s a bit disconcerting. Are you aspiring to be seen as similar to a fictional-character? Because if not, then it’s just weird, and kind of lame to use movie lines as argument points when the point is not in direct relation to said movie. But I digress… And it’s not so much your opinion that matters as it’s the offense seen by claiming the translation is biased.
You didn’t come on and say “Hito, I think the word you’re looking for is lover.” No, you immediately started snarking on the translation (which is a gift) without so much as a thank you for the effort, but….
Then you’ve gone and accused the translator as being a ‘Shipper because their interpretation of CoL did not exactly match up to yours.
I hate to break it to you, but compilation doesn’t support Clerith Canon and just because someone sees that doesn’t make them a ‘shipper of the other pairing(s). It makes them part of the majority.
What I’m saying or where it’s from doesn’t matter here. If we’re speaking about being weird, thirteen people jumping on one person is weird, especially since it’s over….this.
SQUARE ENIX has left who Cloud loves and why up to interpretation.
I didn’t exactly see anyone saying, “Hey, you know, you could have said (blahblahblah) instead of (blahblahblah), did I?
No, you’re right. Where it comes from–as ununique as it is–is irrelevant. And no, SE has not left who Cloud loves up to interpretation, (got compilation?) but that’s for the forum not here.
It has been stated many many times that who Cloud loves is up to a person’s own interpretation.
Many many times, Ash? Surely, then, Oh, THREE examples could be forthcoming, then.
Ryu, I’d take one. One example of creators saying who Cloud loves is up to interpretation as of “end of compilation”. I’m so tired of the Golden Saucer date being the “See? He can be with either.” Yeah? He can date Yuffie and Barret too for Ifrit’s sake… So yeah.
–I didn’t exactly see anyone saying, “Hey, you know, you could have said (blahblahblah) instead of (blahblahblah), did I?–
Well why would we when the translation is just fine? You’re the only person who seems to have a problem with it.
I’m glad to see you’re counting how many people have comments on your posts.
You came here, claimed it was biased, made an incorrect comment on the tense of the sentence, stated that this site is full of mistranslations without offering any examples of those.
I accepted your criticism. I don’t mind people making comments like that. But you then seem to have spun it out to be some kind of conspiricy.
There you go. You could have said that in your first post.
I never said it was a conspiracy. Just seems weird you translate such a blatant word wrong -which looks to be done on purpose.-
Well, the chaos of my opinion is over for now.
Hopefully SQUARE ENIX will translate the novella in English. Maybe then it will be clear.
My sincerest apologies if I caused a problem with my own opinion.
So what are these other mistranslations? I’m curious.
And this.
Slander without backing yourself up probably didn’t help people’s reactions to your posts either.
“I never said it was a conspiracy. ”
Your first post:
““Cloud is the woman’s friend, lover.” Of course you all know that. After all, it is why you changed it, right?”
Implies that it was done on purpose, which was the meaning of my facetious use of ‘conspiricy’.
But how is it wrong, again? To me, blatently wrong would be leaving it out completely or changing it to ‘friend and a comarde’. I’m still not seeing how ‘beloved’ is so radically different as to be deemed ‘wrong’.
It’s not having an opinion that caused a problem, but more the way you’ve gone about expressing it. You didn’t bring up a preceived error and comment on it, you made it out to be some plot to alter the meaning.
@hitoshura Forgive me I never properly thanked you for such a quick and well translated translation. :Bows:
So, it appears our little agent of chaos has all but admitted she is here to troll.
I vote we hereinafter ignore her mewlings until such a time as she can conduct herself like an actual person.
I didn’t find her behavior so much trollish as I found it unrelentingly, stubbornly wrong.
I can’t speak to the Japanese, but I certainly know that his/her insistence the third person narrator = Nojima is blatantly wrong.
People get so worked up over a word to. :monster:
I’m not a she I am a he.
I think it’s very clear that none of you can act like adults. Nor can you comprehend the fact that others have differing opinions then yours. Whether it’s said in a way you want it to be said or not. That’s your problem not mine.
Me stating the obvious about why you changed koibito’s meaning is very obvious to all. I suggest you stop fooling yourselves by thinking people don’t see through this.
It’s quite hilarious how you all act. Name calling, ganging up. Please keep it up. I can go all day in dealing with this kind of behavior. I had many siblings. It doesn’t matter to me either way.
@hitoshura, I’m very positive that even if I said
“Your translation of koibito is supposed to be lover, boyfriend, girlfriend.” you all would have still acted the same exact way you are right now.
None of you fool anyone. I can easily read your many threads and see you would not act any differently then now.
Please don’t waste my time with comments such as these.
@A, I am not worked up. You all are the one’s who are worked up. Have I called any of you rabid? Stupid? or anything else like that?
The problem is you are not making any logical sense. How can a word that in a native Japanese dictionary is explained as “one who is loved/someone’s lover” not be translatable as beloved?
This doesn’t make a shred of sense. Stop wasting people’s time.
“@hitoshura, I’m very positive that even if I said
“Your translation of koibito is supposed to be lover, boyfriend, girlfriend.” you all would have still acted the same exact way you are right now.
None of you fool anyone. I can easily read your many threads and see you would not act any differently then now. ”
Well, I don’t know how other people would react. I’m not other people.
But you came here first, stating in a hostile manner that this word was changed in order to twist things around, as well as a bunch of other stuff that was either incorrect or you didn’t back up. I don’t know what kind of reception you were expecting from that.
Why are you wasting my time with comments like this? You still haven’t said why ‘beloved’ is a completely unacceptable translation. If you would have just said what you quoted, or asked why the choice was made, I would have given you a civil answer. I don’t think I’ve given you an uncivil reply anyway, but you came here accusing people of lies.
When you come barging in with statements like:
“I wonder how you all came up with that.”
“bad translations on that part”
“No, I’m sorry. You’re a shipper.”
“I’ve always seen mistranslations here.”
and so on, then I think you would be ill-advised to throw stones, due to the high likelhiood of the walls of your house being made out of a translucent material that will shatter on impact with hard objects.
By the way, is there any particular reason you have yet to respond to any of people’s requests for evidence and are instead deflecting attention to the conduct of other parties in the debate? Inquiring minds want to know.
Careful, your Clerith is showing…
The fact that you state an opinion and don’t expect anyone to call it wrong is your problem.
If you don’t want people to argue with you, don’t reply with “just because”…back it up…
How is anyone wasting your time…you’re the one answering the comments…
If anything, you started it with your “you translated koibito wrong” accusations. You obviously have no idea how to translate Japanese text…nice try Babelfish user….
“Whether or not I am a Cloud/Aerith supporter is irrelevant. Because I would still stand by my statement either way. Going by what everyone’s posts say here, I’m an agent of chaos. And that’s all that matters. It just so happens I’m an agent of chaos with a differing opinion then your own.”
I would have told this troll to stfu and piss off as soon as that^ was posted. “Agent of chaos”, lol. Just lol.
Anyway, thank you very much for the translations, hitoshura.
How sad. I’m sorry you view me as a troll on a public forum that isn’t solely for the fandom of Tifa/Cloud.
Regardless of what the forum is for, describing yourself as an “agent of chaos” is just another (stupid) way to say that you’re trolling.
You are a troll, Ash.
OMG CAN’T YOU RESPECT OUR OPINION?!
XD
I can bet you money that the newborn dictionary stickler there was one of the same ones who desperately clung to sweetheart meaning sweet person and koi-space-bito. It’s hilarious to see him pretend otherwise.
I’m not. I actually never get into debates or anything like it….till now of course.
I’m happy watching or looking in on them from time to time, though.
Think of this as the last straw kind of.
……Groovy…….
Ash, it’s not nice to lie.
Ah, the wonders of IP tracking…
You don’t know anything about me. I simply view and comment.
Do you know you can go to jail for tracking someone’s IP across the internet? It’s actually a law. Amazing isn’t it?
Uhm, no, it’s not. Sorry. Fail again.
Not really “tracking” when your IP is in plain sight for the moderators of the site when you comment. LMAO wow. You’re rich.
But better go call the internet police!! UH OH!
Man, I didn’t think we’d get our first veiled lolsuit threat over something as trivial (and blatantly legal) as IP address tracking. And I didn’t think we’d get one so soon either. Good times.
It is…in some states, actually.
I wouldn’t call or speak to anyone over something as trivial as this discussion.
@V, I did not threaten you. I just thought I should state a well known fact.
You don’t seem to realize the functions of running a site and what benefits it gives. This is why people can ban IP Addresses if they need to.
Which states? Being that the internet is worldwide accessible and as Ryu pointed out, IP addresses are SHOWN for mods and Admins, I’d be curious as to what states, because tracking down an IP address is inherently legal, in that it is necessarily public information. That’s how the Internet operates.
Or is this in the same area of expertise as your translation skills?
It’s not a “well known fact” because it’s… not a fact at all; it’s completely erroneous information, otherwise every message board on the internet would be at fault for collecting IP address information. And I used the phrase “veiled threat.” Sure, you didn’t directly threaten us; that’s why it’s veiled.
Ohohohoho, you’re quite dense aren’t you?
I guess tracking down telephohne numbers in the phone book is illegal in your state as well.
lol Sites need the ability to track IP addresses so that they can ban people who cause problems.
Also the site owner is Dutch so I’d like to see you try and go after him. XD
Don’t believe Ondore’s lies!
Basch Lives!!!!
Woooooooow!! There was a mess here wasnt there! Hah. Pinkers all butthurt over it? Well, the sentence *IS* in past tense, regardless of what you translate the kanji into, you know what that means right Pinkers? Spin your own shit back at you. Even if Cloud and Aerith were a loving couple, which was NEVER shown, spoken of, mentioned, or embraced in anyway/shape/form throughout the compilation, it was in the past. Ever hear of LockeXRachel? LuluXChappu? Why not? They’re in the past, and had REAL ACTUAL relationships, other than the optional ONE DATE Cloud has with Aerith. Beloved is almost TO strong for the sentence, Sweetheart would be more correct, but almost a bash to Aeriths Character, Since Cloud never had nor reciprocated Romantic feelings for Aerith, Girlfriend/Boyfriend, and Lover are most deffinently not the right words. Beloved was a treat and compliment, fucking take it and be happy they hyped up he watered down relationship they gave (Probably as a little bit of fanservice to the otherside) the pair of them. Seriously have they read the revised CoT? Sure, Aerith can call herself Clouds Koibito (In the past) All she wants but it was in the past, and even if Cloud started to feel affections for her, he was confused and essentially nothing like himself, not even in his own right mind, and when he is, we all saw what was there, we saw the romantic scene with Tifa on the highwind, we’ve heard of his promise, we’ve seen him fulfill it in new scenes, we’ve had Tifa have the NERVE to suspect he might actually LOVE her, what could have given her THAT idea? Unless…Maybe…
Cloud himself showed it/Implied it, then stopped, giving her a reason to become scared. Why can people not so the obviousness of all this? Aerith calls Cloud her lover = CANON WIN but Cloud…
“It’s only Tifa’s attitude that matters to me…Nothing else”
“A secret…Wish…Tender memories…”
“Tifa, the girl whom Cloud dimly *FELL IN LOVE WITH*”
(Never once does it say those feelings stopped, and in Clouds mind we saw just how strong that dimly lit love was, and how it would develop and grow throughout AC)
“Tifa’s (ROLES/STANDPOINTS) is that of a mother, sweetheart (Which CAN be translated as Koibito, not that FAKE Koi_Bito lie you pinkers come up with, backpedal all you want, because you’ve hit a fucking wall. I know Japanese, I am native there, grow the hell up.) and a close ally in battle. Its obvious to who, she is a mother to, which would be the kids, and its obvious who she is a lover to, and it ISNT to no one, because then Role/Standpoint wouldnt make sense if she doesnt fulfill it, and she does, and we see, just like ALL the females in FF that are the love interest to the main/Cloud-like male, that her story revovles around HIM. Plenty of proof of Tifa being the further development of Cloud, his role, his character, his story, and his workings in he plot, and vice versa.
Hope I made sense, and that the Clerii stop bitching over getting a compliment on their shipping they lie/manipulate/and claw tooth and nail to no avail to prove.
(Keep in mind I love both pairings and ship both, and my CloAer friend herself if the one who pointed out Beloved was wrong, but MUCH sweeter in the context of that story than sweetheart (Which Tifa has been described as AT LEAST 3 SEPERATE times, exluding the Koibito line Nomura gave us, “Clouds childhood sweetheart” anyone? Its confirmed in other context just who she is a sweetheart/lover to.)
Yes, I’m done.
Ok, I usually don’t laugh. But do you honestly think I’m going to read that all? I’m not in some debate with you, so quit while you can.
Really, it was truly funny to see that post.
Not as funny as you even coming here in the first place.
Wow, big bad “Ash”, post in the real Forums instead of hiding out here.
Which is what you rabids do best. Because it’s all you CAN do.
Ash, don’t try to cop an attitude. Be respectful in the first place and we will respect you back.
If you want us to take you seriously then read what we have to say. Also, maybe just accept that fact that you just might be wrong. We wouldn’t think less of you if you did.
And I still wonder how beloved does not equal lover…
What simple-minded arrogance. I never said I was directly targeting you or attacking you, as you are not mentioned or referenced within the entire passage yourself. How am I in anyway debating with you personally? This is a public forum. This is my personal opinion + Quoted Facts for the entire public to see, not to debate with you, you arent what I revolve around.
Now, that that is taken care of, go away Pinker.
Hito… you did a great job of translating.. thank you for your hard work….
but Ash, since you think it is a mistranslation, (you know Japanese?) why don’t you just wait for the OFFICIAL translations? 🙂
I think I will, Kelly.
Yeah…
what if they translate it the same way? (which they most likely will)
are you still going to think its a mistranslation? (not trying to be rude)
Well, if it translated as that, I’ll be amazed. I most likely think they will translate it as something that only shows Aerith’s feelings. Like using sweetheart or something.
But if it does, I’ll take back every word I said.
Alright.. thank you..
Why would you be amazed?
Well I wonder when official translations come out?!?!
Tifa’s lines were translated as “like a mother, sweetheart and comrade in battle.” I believe. It’s possible they’ll translate it as Cloud being her friend and sweetheart, but sweetheart still doesn’t seem to convey either one’s feelings.
What’s wrong with beloved? It can be used in a romantic sense…hell, I’ve seen in a lot of video games refering to a romantic couple…
Seriously, I’m curious. Can you explain?
Because I see the koibito word and don’t see the word for beloved.
But hey, that’s what SQUARE ENIX does, they try to make everything fair.
I never said beloved is a bad thing. I view it as good too. But it’s still a mistranslation.
Don’t bother trying when you don’t know Japanese. Seriously.