[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
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We’re dropping dangerously close to postmodernist arguments here, and that is one of MY berserk buttons.
There’s a reason why I linked to the full translation and further encouraged everyone to not simply take my word on the translation. That’s because my conclusion isn’t based on belief. It is based on a rational examination of the evidence. I argue from a point of neutrality towards the conclusion the evidence leads in.
Let me say this: You remind me of my Philosophy professor. LOL. I don’t really understand the ‘postmodernist’ part, so do enlighten me. Just so that I may avoid hitting your berserk button and have all hell break loose.
But, C/T is your belief is it not? And like I said, it’s what I saw from reading your article. I did not say that you did not examine it or that it’s purely based on belief. I said that you put the things (text, photo, etc) together and made your conclusion.
That’s the thing. I don’t see this as being about belief. I see this as being about doing detective work. This is forensic linguistics, not religion. I presume Ven and Heroine see it the same. What we believe should be determined by what is there. We should not evaluate what is there based on what we believe or would have be true.
Where did I say that it’s about belief? Just because I said that one statement is good enough for me to believe that Aerith is important to Cloud and support C/A? Yes, what we believe is determined by what is there, but not just on one thing, but on every thing that is there. Every word has it’s purpose, a meaning which can change the sentence completely. Ah, the power of words. :p
Dude, might I say that I think you have issues on religion there. Just because the word ‘belief’ is there doesn’t mean it’s automatically connected to religion.
Here’s another thing where we seem at cross wires. This isn’t shipping. Not for me. This is about the facts of the matter, not which pairing is preferred.
But you do say that the case for Clerith is concrete, at least in your mind. Would you explain why it is, and what evidence leads you to the conclusion that it is concrete?
I said the shipping part because we got dragged with proving Cloti is canon. Sorry about that.
I actually asked this before, I forgot to whom I’ve addressed this to. But I’ve requested for your basis on what is concrete and what is not.
Evidence? Same one you have: facts-statements said or published, actions that’s been done, words which spoken. It’s concrete because we do base our arguments on facts, contrary to other’s opinions.
It’s late here Ryu. I’ll do this again tomorrow. LOL. Looking at it, I might as well post again in the forums, since it takes the same amount of effort, but double the time.
CR despite all the replies, you have not actually said anything. You always fall back on “this is what I believe” or “interpretation” as if it is some catch-all excuse not to support your position.
Then again this speaking in circles/deflection routine is not surprising. The Clerith band plays on after all.
It’s because that’s what I’ve really been trying to say. I’m not proving that this article is wrong, I don’t even remember how it got there.
Let me say it this way.
1. Facts are presented to us.
2. We interpret these facts and decipher their meaning.
3. We form our analysis of those facts.
4. We present them as how we see them-their meaning.
5. Counter-analysis is made by the other side based also on facts known.
6. The debate goes on and on…
All of us have our own arguments based on those facts which we interpreted. That’s what I’m saying. So forgive me if i don’t want to fall into your own argument, I’m defending mine.
You don’t have an argument to defend. You haven’t said anything.
You don’t have an argument to defend. You haven’t said anything.
I did. It’s what started this all.
ClerithRaven (September 14, 2011 at 12:54 pm)
Ryu, all of us use facts for our arguments. Not just you Cloti fans. The interpretation is what’s different.
I remember saying that our arguments are from facts, which we have interpreted. I don’t remember where I ‘claimed my argument as “what I believe is the truth”’. I did say that we have out own truths. But I don’t think I said that only what I believe is the truth. You confined yourself to that word just because I said that one statement is enough for me to love Clerith.
Like I said, you have your own standards to determine which facts/argument is concrete. So do I. Our arguments have strong facts and evidences, since they are very official and all-so we believe them. How does that differ from yours?
I think what Ven was trying to say was pretty much similar as what I was.
CR, you did have your argument firstly, but as the debate going, then you claim your argument as “what you believe is the truth”. Now, if your stand deviated from “arguments” to “belief”, there’s no point in debating about this anymore.
Argument means you believe on something because you have strong facts, evidences to support your cause.
But a “belief” is something you believe as it is. There’s no need to bring facts because that is your belief.
Example:
Argument: We believe that SE had decided that Cloud and Tifa is the canon couple. The reason? Because of this article, that statement, and other scenes.
Belief: I believe that God exists. Why? Because I feel Him there, inside my heart, my mind, and my soul.
(Again. This is just EXAMPLE. Please don’t start to argue about the content or anything about religion, but pay attention to the difference between them.)
There’s no point in arguing a belief because we are not the person who believes it. In the example case, we don’t feel it.
So, CR, if you still insist that you are a Clerith because you believe in it as your “belief”. I will immediately shut my fingers and leave you alone.
My reply is above. Misplaced it. LOL.
if SE confirmed Cloud and Tifa are the couple for VII then I believe them and that’s that
have a nice day now
I love how you just jumped in there and said that, like everyone’s gonna stop. You have my admiration.
This article is missing something, which makes it a false article and a lie. A major one at that, Cloti is not canon. Lol.
On the picture of Cloud and Tifa next to each other near the Highwind, it says Page. 232.
Page. 232 says “Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.”
Yeah notice in the paragraph how it says that the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection.
Are the Clotis so desperate that they have to a manipulate a article, so they can get what they want ? Lol, the funnies.
Anyways, I’m here to support Clerithraven.
Hey pinker. 🙂
Get ready for the barrage. :p We know it’s coming. LOL.
EDIT: Thanks for the support. 🙂
Since you very much told me that the date is optional, the referenced page also states that the HW scene is optional, I figured SE might have been giving us a hard time to get that part. It’s an interpretation.
The thing is, THIS page lists the four dates as ‘depending on Cloud’s actions’ as does the reference page. Meanwhile, the cited page listing the deviation has it off to the side, apart from the text which again states Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings, and SEVEN OTHER PAGES which also say Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings. Confirmation of feelings was long established at this point. That happening is already part What this page did was simply state, in no uncertain terms, that the feelings confirmed were romantic.
By contrast, SE is very haphazard with regards to the date. In the UO, Aerith’s date appears in the timeline, but Tifa’s date appears in her personal timeline. All four dates are given their own section discussing the differences between them all. In the U10, Tifa’s date appears in Tifa and Cloud’s sections, but Aerith’s in hers. In the U10, All four dates are again listed, and the FTOIL page says it’s Action dependant- stressing this as the summary, not the content of any particular date. I hold a particular hypothesis that all four dates happened rapid fire, since at least one had to happen, and while the whole of each date cannot happen, parts of all of them could.
The page showed the High affection version, that’s what the text is about. Then the page referenced the other version, wherein no confirmation took place. Basically, if we look at it that way, yeah, the player can choose. I’m not confining myself to that one page.
Neither am I. I’m looking at this page, p232 now, the ‘Important scenes of FFVII’ page, the CCU, the U10, etc. Consistently, even if the low version is mentioned, it is the high version that is discussed, that is given attention.
Can you cite one, just one, wherein SE says the HA version is official/canon? I didn’t say it wasn’t official, but I’m not saying it is. I just didn’t want to touch that part because of a whole new argument.
If the deviation does not affect the argument in any way whatsoever, then it is irrelevant. But if it does, its not irrelevant.
They listed it as one of the four most important and notable scenes of FFVII. The confirmation of feelings has been mentioned as part of Cloud and Tifa’s narrative seven times, not including the page under dispute.
Lines that only appear in the high version have been referenced, unbidden, in interviews.
You’re never going to see a ‘This is how it happened’ though. Not for any particular scene. What you’re going to see is the canon version presented, and then variations listed. Like Yuffie joining the team under Cloud, rather than Tifa or Cid. No document officially declares the version with Vincent at Sister ray is official, even though it must be.
Again, I was clearing up the fact that my comment to your post was about our side using facts for our arguments too. I’m not saying that this article was not based on facts.
Which is why I point out, again, the quantitative and qualitative difference between the facts used. I cited a partial list, organized by sourcebooks and subject of perhaps twenty different pieces of evidence, all of which relate contextually to each other. In counter, you responded that you had one particular piece of evidence, and that was sufficient. A piece of evidence that is mirrored by a piece of evidence where the same is said about Tifa.
It got me thinking if you had a fan club. :p
On that case I can say yes.
The press release was about making the debate stop, I think. Because, if SE did say clearly that C/T is canon, then no Clerith fan would debate that Clerith is canon anymore.
You would be surprised.
Although, it won’t stop us from supporting C/A, we won’t be arguing anymore. That’s what I was saying with the ‘press release’.
And yes, of course. If a person believes one thing, then she/he must be able to demonstrate its truth. But sadly, both our sides have their own ‘truths’.
They do. But again, that’s why FACTS matter! Put a truth before a fact and you go nowhere. Put a fact before a truth, you find out if that truth is actually one.
Peraps I wasn’t very clear. Yes, the belief should start with a fact (mine being the statement where Aerith is important to Cloud), then I support it with other facts. Debates are there for the back and forth examination and analyzation of the facts presented.
Quite so. Though I again point out that your singular starter fact has its mirror in several facts describing Tifa as an important woman to Cloud.
If it is really hollow, then yes, you may call it absurd. But, I’ve yet to see someone prove it hollow.
Err, no. I was referencing the actual ‘hollow earth theory,’ a patently absurd bit of pseudoscience that several people nonetheless still to this day believe. It is their belief that the earth is hollow. This belief is absurd. Beliefs are not protected just because they are beliefs, is my point.
I agree for the most part. Presenting a side, getting it countered, offering another analysis… it could go on and on. And I don’t think either of our side is willing to give in. LOL.
Historically speaking, your side has. The grand thrust of the Clerith argument has shifted noticably over the years. It used to be quite adamantly that Clerith was canon rah rah rah. Now it is much more commonly ‘we cannot say.’
Now, the last part confuses me. Where did you get the idea that our arguments have no evidence?
I don’t mean to suggest you don’t have any. I mean to suggest that our facts have long presented a realized problem, which is why arguments tend to focus on destroying the basis for C/T rather than building the basis for C/A.
Just a thought, the world of FF7 is very complicated, especially with SE providing ‘hints’ or symbolic meanings in its compilation. So, interpretations are key if you would really like to understand it. Yes, SE would say one thing, but being the skeptical debater that you are, would you not look for other pieces to truly verify something?
Err, if we were dealing with a hint or a symbolic statement, this might be a better line of evidence. The text, though, is pretty straightforward on the entire page. And even then, it’s not meant to be a standalone bit of evidence, regardless of what our new friend Pinker would like to claim.
Let me say this: You remind me of my Philosophy professor. LOL. I don’t really understand the ‘postmodernist’ part, so do enlighten me. Just so that I may avoid hitting your berserk button and have all hell break loose.
Postmodernism is a school of philosophy and literary analysis that rejects the idea of objective truths, that all people all have their own viewpoints, all are valid, all are equally valid. It’s really rather infuriating when applied too excessively, which it tends to be.
But, C/T is your belief is it not? And like I said, it’s what I saw from reading your article. I did not say that you did not examine it or that it’s purely based on belief. I said that you put the things (text, photo, etc) together and made your conclusion.
But I would not classify that as my belief. I would classify it as the conclusion of the analysis. I no more ‘believe’ in C/T than I ‘believe’ my blood type is AB+.
Where did I say that it’s about belief?
You keep referring to everything AS belief.
Just because I said that one statement is good enough for me to believe that Aerith is important to Cloud and support C/A? Yes, what we believe is determined by what is there, but not just on one thing, but on every thing that is there. Every word has it’s purpose, a meaning which can change the sentence completely. Ah, the power of words. :p
Quite true.
Dude, might I say that I think you have issues on religion there. Just because the word ‘belief’ is there doesn’t mean it’s automatically connected to religion.
I was making an analogy to demonstrate why I think that using the term ‘belief’ to describe the conclusions is ill advised.
I actually asked this before, I forgot to whom I’ve addressed this to. But I’ve requested for your basis on what is concrete and what is not.
Evidence? Same one you have: facts-statements said or published, actions that’s been done, words which spoken. It’s concrete because we do base our arguments on facts, contrary to other’s opinions.
That doesn’t answer my question, though. I was for what actual evidence led you to determine the case for Clerith was concrete. You don’t have to be super detailed initially- though do expect us to ask for your sources eventually- I just want to know WHAT leads you to this conclusion.
You’ve taken umbrage at my statement that ‘the difference is, we have facts!’, which is fair, it was a deliberately inflammatory statement, but you haven’t really provided facts for your case, which it was supposed to provoke.
It’s late here Ryu. I’ll do this again tomorrow. LOL. Looking at it, I might as well post again in the forums, since it takes the same amount of effort, but double the time.
You are welcome back at any time.
Now then, Pinker, or Jazz. Or Yoshi. Or Fionna.
Remember, I’m page staff, I Look at this page from the backend, and your email address is a dead giveaway.
This article is missing something, which makes it a false article and a lie. A major one at that, Cloti is not canon. Lol.
Actually, Jazz, you could eliminate this page from the face of the earth entirely and the case for C/T’s canonicity would still be on solid ground. Because it’s not reliant on silver bullets. It’s a coherent web of evidence, each bit supported by every other bit, and the removal of the candy striped maypole may make the web less flashy, but not particularly less stable.
On the picture of Cloud and Tifa next to each other near the Highwind, it says Page. 232.
Page. 232 says “Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.”
Yeah notice in the paragraph how it says that the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection.
Now notice that’s in the section reserved for deviations, and the main section of the article still says Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings? You’ll find another 7 pages, not counting this or the FTOIL page, stating that feelings were confirmed that night, including Tifa’s CCU profile, which states Cloud and Tifa realize their feelings for each other at the end of FFVII. So yes, thank you for once again confirming that the High Highwind scene happened, since it is in that scene feelings are shared, and it is feelings being shared, confirmed, etc. that happens in the official timeline as per Tifa’s profile and several other pages.
I repeat, we know from multiple sources that feelings being shared, unveiled, confirmed, are the outcome of that scene. What you’re telling us is that the ‘High version’ is the scene where this event occurs. That makes the high version canon.
Plus, y’know, being one of the most notable scenes of the entire game.
Are the Clotis so desperate that they have to a manipulate a article, so they can get what they want ? Lol, the funnies.
No, Pinker. Neither I nor the Cloti are desperate. I have seen that page, I have found that you are ignoring the main body of the text, and the text of several other pages. You, especially, seem to be arguing from want, rather than evidence.
Anyways, I’m here to support Clerithraven.
That’s fine. Please try and keep your cool, however. You were beginning to lose your train of thought in the LTD thread and got very emotional before you were threadbanned.
CR, I saw you browsing the site. Feel free to respond to this on forum if you like.
The thing is, THIS page lists the four dates as ‘depending on Cloud’s actions’ as does the reference page. Meanwhile, the cited page listing the deviation has it off to the side, apart from the text which again states Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings, and SEVEN OTHER PAGES which also say Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings. Confirmation of feelings was long established at this point. That happening is already part What this page did was simply state, in no uncertain terms, that the feelings confirmed were romantic.
And you conclude that it is feelings of romance because of the page title. That’s what I’m getting from this.
By contrast, SE is very haphazard with regards to the date. In the UO, Aerith’s date appears in the timeline, but Tifa’s date appears in her personal timeline. All four dates are given their own section discussing the differences between them all. In the U10, Tifa’s date appears in Tifa and Cloud’s sections, but Aerith’s in hers. In the U10, All four dates are again listed, and the FTOIL page says it’s Action dependant- stressing this as the summary, not the content of any particular date. I hold a particular hypothesis that all four dates happened rapid fire, since at least one had to happen, and while the whole of each date cannot happen, parts of all of them could.
I do understand that it is. But having it there, among the pictures of ‘canon couples’, does not have any merit whatsoever? I don’t get that logic.
Neither am I. I’m looking at this page, p232 now, the ‘Important scenes of FFVII’ page, the CCU, the U10, etc. Consistently, even if the low version is mentioned, it is the high version that is discussed, that is given attention.
Didn’t we already do this in the forum. Where you admitted to having your files mixed up?
They listed it as one of the four most important and notable scenes of FFVII. The confirmation of feelings has been mentioned as part of Cloud and Tifa’s narrative seven times, not including the page under dispute.
Lines that only appear in the high version have been referenced, unbidden, in interviews.
You’re never going to see a ‘This is how it happened’ though. Not for any particular scene. What you’re going to see is the canon version presented, and then variations listed. Like Yuffie joining the team under Cloud, rather than Tifa or Cid. No document officially declares the version with Vincent at Sister ray is official, even though it must be.
But nowhere can I see that it’s stated to be officially canon. Isn’t it your assumption then because it appears most of the time?
Which is why I point out, again, the quantitative and qualitative difference between the facts used. I cited a partial list, organized by sourcebooks and subject of perhaps twenty different pieces of evidence, all of which relate contextually to each other. In counter, you responded that you had one particular piece of evidence, and that was sufficient. A piece of evidence that is mirrored by a piece of evidence where the same is said about Tifa.
Just because I gave one reason doesn’t mean I have only that. What I said was not even arguing about Clerith being the canon couple. It was about me seeing the romance between Cloud and Aerith.
Postmodernism is a school of philosophy and literary analysis that rejects the idea of objective truths, that all people all have their own viewpoints, all are valid, all are equally valid. It’s really rather infuriating when applied too excessively, which it tends to be.
Oh. That’s what you meant.
But I would not classify that as my belief. I would classify it as the conclusion of the analysis. I no more ‘believe’ in C/T than I ‘believe’ my blood type is AB+.
You keep referring to everything AS belief.
Belief that our arguments are valid because we have evidences to support it. Don’t you believe your arguments true as well because you have your facts to support it? How does that differ from ours really?
That doesn’t answer my question, though. I was for what actual evidence led you to determine the case for Clerith was concrete. You don’t have to be super detailed initially- though do expect us to ask for your sources eventually- I just want to know WHAT leads you to this conclusion.
You’ve taken umbrage at my statement that ‘the difference is, we have facts!’, which is fair, it was a deliberately inflammatory statement, but you haven’t really provided facts for your case, which it was supposed to provoke.
For one, we have an official statement saying that Cloud carries his own feelings for Aerith that is different from Aerith’s comrades. Then we have Cloud acting so heartbroken over Aerith’s death, which we are discussing in the forum. We also have the part where Cloud wants to meet Aerith again as he said in the ending of FF7.
CR, I saw you browsing the site. Feel free to respond to this on forum if you like.
I did. You manage to hit one of my “berserk buttons”, as you call it.
~That’s fine. Please try and keep your cool ~
I just thought that I would return the favor of how Clotis are treating Cleriths. It’s not hard to loose your cool, when Cleriths are being called ”insane pinkers ” Yeah, my username is Pinker, but it’s a joke on what the Clotis call us. >> ‘;
~ I have seen that page, I have found that you are ignoring the main body of the text, and the text of several other pages. You, especially, seem to be arguing from want, rather than evidence.~
What am I ignoring ? It clearly says that the High Affection is optional. 0_O Lol, no it’s not from want, because it’s there. I’m not making things up, though you are ignoring the body of text, that clearly says that High Affection depends on Tifa’s affection.
To be honest, I haven’t managed to grasp which evidence are you guys talking about. However, reading Ryu-san’s comment and yours, one thing I could say for sure.
Pinker, I guess Ryu-san already stated what the article was saying. Your statement, “…no it’s not from want, because it’s there. I’m not making things up, though you are ignoring the body of text, that clearly says that High Affection depends on Tifa’s affection.” proved that you only took one statement into your consideration while ignoring the others. As I also mentioned to CR, please do not read as parts, but read any article (or anything) as a whole, then, and only then you will know what the article is trying to say. Reading as parts will only lead to misconceptions.
The analogy is like this: we read a…let’s say…Disney’s version of Beauty and the Beast. We know that in the end the Beast turned into quite a good person, but because we only paid attention to one of the parts in the middle of the story where he seemed to get angry aaall the time, we then thought that he’s rude and annoying.
Now don’t bother with what story it is, just think about the analogy.
Because we see one part of the whole, we are not able to see the whole point. Just like when CR didn’t really read one of my comments as a whole so he didn’t seem to get what I was trying to say about the article. 🙂
I won’t dare to rebut any of your argument just yet, just please be careful on that.
Whoops. Pardon me.
CR: s/he
my mistake. 🙂
No prob.
I’m female, so please refrain from using the ‘he’ pronoun when referring to me. Thank you very much.
Chill out bro.
And for one thing, I didn’t really like to discuss the article. Ryu and I have done that way back. I think it was even brought to the forum. Haha.
Also about the confirm feelings paragraphs, it says nothing about feelings of love. It only says that they know what each other is feeling during the Highwind moment. The feelings are that this day might never come again, it could be their last day together, as they are about to head into Sephiroth’s cave and die.
The confirmed feelings say nothing about love, and about Cloud loving Tifa a official SE quote says that Cloud is none the wiser to Tifa’s and Aerith’s feelings towards him.
Confirmed feelings say nothing about love, and the Highwind is optional, Cloti = Not cannon.
Also stop saying that Cloti being cannon is a fact. That’s like saying that fairies exist is a fact. A lie cannot be a fact, it’s completely impossible.
And no problem ClerithRaven !
So after getting called out for ignoring vast amounts of information and basically cherry picking statements you respond with “it doesn’t say feelings of love”?
And to support that statement you take the “none the wiser” quote and remove all the context.
Just brilliant.
Vendel, you only interpreted it to be feelinsg of love because of the page title and with the premise that Tifa loves Cloud. But that isn’t just the emotions they would have been feeling at that moment.
I’m not sure how your response makes any sense whatsoever.
It’s like newspeak only less logical.
Maybe it’s because you refuse to see what I’m trying to say.
You still have yet to actually say anything.
~So after getting called out for ignoring vast amounts of information and basically cherry picking statements you respond with “it doesn’t say feelings of love”?~
That’s because it doesn’t, derp. It says that it confirms feelings. It doesn’t say that Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings of love. So yeah who’s ignoring what now ;/
~And to support that statement you take the “none the wiser” quote and remove all the context.
Just brilliant.~
What did I remove ? I removed nothing, the quote doesn’t say any feelings or emotions about love between them. So I removed something that’s already not there ?
Lawl !
btw, I’m a girl too.
Do me a favor. First, given what the page is about, why would they be there if they were not romantic feelings? Secondly, do any of the other captions say love? By your utterly arbitrary and ridiculous standards that means none of the couples are canon.
Now about “none the wiser”. If you would bother to comprehend anything other than what you think you can use to disprove C/T, that section also mentions Jessie, Priscilla and the Don. Thus we can safely assume it is only talking about specific moments in the game. Because trying to assert Cloud is unaware of Tifa’s feelings by games end based on that comes into a bit of a conflict with…oh the entire second half of the game and every official word on it.
@ Heroine. Nothing is being ignored. I’m fully aware that SE says that C and T confirm feelings underneath the Highwind. Though SE does not say that romantic nor passionate feelings between C and T were expressed. Therefore Cloti is not canon. The feelings C and T confirmed was it could be their last and final day together, not anything boyfriend and girlfriend material.
Also
”Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn’t a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she’s been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times.” ~Nojima; Reunion Files ”
The Reunion files clearly say that Tifa symbolizes a woman who has been left behind by a man, and she’s expressed her feelings to Cloud, only to be rejected.
That does not spell out Cloti is canon.
Also please read pg 232, it says that the High affection is optional. Page 232 is bolded in large letters right on the picture of Cloud and Tifa next together by the Highwind. SE is saying please read the page and note that Cloti is only a fanon.
Time for a comprehension lesson.
”Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn’t a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she’s been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times.” ~Nojima; Reunion Files ”
To be left behind by a man you first need to be with that man. Thus in the first sentence Nojima has said “they are in a relationship”. To follow that up with describing that Cloud’s actions have hurt Tifa emotionally. But that she has expressed these feelings to Cloud more than once.
This is a statement about a couple going through a (very) rough patch. Not about a woman desperately trying to get a man to love her only to be rejected.
Oh BTW Vincent and Yuffie are optional. I guess unless SE holds a press conference and tells us flat out that they are in the game we can’t make any assumptions. In fact it’s my interpretation that they are in fact not involved in the story. It’s my belief based on the fact that this is what I believe.
In fact it’s my interpretation that they are in fact not involved in the story. It’s my belief based on the fact that this is what I believe.
This looks familiar. You used my defense in a very very wrong way.
It only looks wrong because I am not using it to defend clerith. In the defense of Clerith nothing is wrong.
Whoa. Hold your horses there, cowboy. LOL.
Where are the facts supporting that your interpretation is correct?
You’re using my defense in regards to just this article. I’m saying that my defense is based on all our arguments. We read the facts, interpret it, and use it in an argument as we believe it to be true. Why? Because we based them on facts, the official statements.
I just thought that I would return the favor of how Clotis are treating Cleriths. It’s not hard to loose your cool, when Cleriths are being called ”insane pinkers ” Yeah, my username is Pinker, but it’s a joke on what the Clotis call us. >> ‘;
Pinker is not and has never been a slur encompassing all Cleriths. It refers to the subset of Cleriths who hold A: That Cloud and Aerith can, and do, have a romance across the necrotic divide. and B: There’s no chance of C/T.
What am I ignoring ? It clearly says that the High Affection is optional.
Not in the slightest. It says there is a deviation of the scene based on Tifa’s affection value. No one denies this. But the there’s also a noted deviation regarding Yuffie’s joining the team if Cid or Tifa are in the lead when she joins instead of Cloud, even her joining is a deviation.
The text upon the Sister Ray deviated depending on who you bring- but we know who must have been brought. We know who must have been brought, because events play out elsewhere according to how events go if one person in particular comes along. We even know he used a limit break on the tower.
Likewise, we know, since Feelings are shared that night, officially, and that feelings being shared is the outcome of the high highwind scene, that that is the scene that was shared. We are told the outcome of events, an outcome that we are also told happens in only one version if you do a certain thing. Ergo, the certain thing was done. And SE has been quite consistent with this.
By contrast, since this keeps coming up, information about the date is maddengingly inconsistent, so much so that IMO, the best solution is to declare they all occur and not sweat the petty stuff.
0_O Lol, no it’s not from want, because it’s there. I’m not making things up, though you are ignoring the body of text, that clearly says that High Affection depends on Tifa’s affection.
Yes… And it says when Tifa’s affection is high (Nothing to do with Cloud’s affection, notably), feelings are shared. From Tifa’s profile and multiple other sources, feelings being shared is the canon course of events (As are these feelings coming to light in the lifestream sequence, but that’s a tangent). Ergo, these feelings HAPPEN. As these feelings only HAPPEN in the High Highwind scene- by your own argument- that means the high highwind scene happened.
You’re ignoring the fact that we know, factually, that mutual emotions are shared that night. Pointing out that it only happens in one version of the scene dependant on a set of variables means those variables were fulfilled, and the other scene didn’t happen.
And this is entirely beside the question of whether or not those feelings were of love, but we’re gonna get into that in a moment.
Also about the confirm feelings paragraphs, it says nothing about feelings of love. It only says that they know what each other is feeling during the Highwind moment. The feelings are that this day might never come again, it could be their last day together, as they are about to head into Sephiroth’s cave and die.
The heading under which the paragraph appears is devoted to discussing moments of romantic displays and confessions of love. Yet none of the paragraphs mention love. Not even Cecil and Rosa’s, and they got fucking married and had a kid. The entire section is ABOUT love, EVEN the bit talking about the possible dates since three of the four make romantic overtures on Cloud. Trying to argue that the quote about the Highwind scene isn’t is nothing but special pleading, especially when there’s a self contained sub heading in the lower right about displays of Non-romantic love by the player characters.
The confirmed feelings say nothing about love, and about Cloud loving Tifa a official SE quote says that Cloud is none the wiser to Tifa’s and Aerith’s feelings towards him.
Yes. And it does so depicting a picture of Cloud and Tifa’s date. It is referring to a period in time. Cloud later becomes aware of Tifa’s feelings as she becomes aware of his, and they confirm them later.
Please, do try and be aware of the grander context, Jazz.
Confirmed feelings say nothing about love, and the Highwind is optional, Cloti = Not cannon.
Not even a napoleonic longbarrel of love?
Okay, that’s an obscure reference, even for me.
The confirmed feelings are of love by virture of being in the section discussing displays of romantic love between player characters.
The fact of a deviation does not mean we cannot determine which of the High Highwind scenes officially occurred.
Also stop saying that Cloti being cannon is a fact. That’s like saying that fairies exist is a fact. A lie cannot be a fact, it’s completely impossible.
That Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual feelings with each other at the end of the story, move in together afterwards, start a family together, and have a future together isn’t a lie. In fact, everything I just said is paraphrases of real quotes. Only by imposing absurd standards like ‘Confirmed feelings say nothing about love’ despite these feelings being mentioned in a heading discussing ONLY displays and confessions of romantic love prevent these facts from resulting in the resultant fact- Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship. According to the canon facts of the matter. In short, C/T is canon.
That’s because it doesn’t, derp. It says that it confirms feelings. It doesn’t say that Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings of love. So yeah who’s ignoring what now ;/
You. The very purpose of the page. Brusque, but true.
What did I remove ? I removed nothing, the quote doesn’t say any feelings or emotions about love between them. So I removed something that’s already not there ?
You removed the fact that it’s discussing a period in time and that quotes discussing later periods of time state that Cloud does become ‘the wiser’ regarding Tifa’s emotions.
@ Heroine. Nothing is being ignored. I’m fully aware that SE says that C and T confirm feelings underneath the Highwind. Though SE does not say that romantic nor passionate feelings between C and T were expressed. Therefore Cloti is not canon. The feelings C and T confirmed was it could be their last and final day together, not anything boyfriend and girlfriend material.
Question, then- Why did Square Enix decide to put this mention of mutual confirmation of feelings on the page discussing displays of romantic affection, surrounded by the canon couples of Six other Final Fantasy games whose quotes also discuss their moments of displayed affection and confession?
”Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn’t a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she’s been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times.” ~Nojima; Reunion Files ”
The Reunion files clearly say that Tifa symbolizes a woman who has been left behind by a man, and she’s expressed her feelings to Cloud, only to be rejected.
You’re doing that thing where you claim things that are not even IMPLIED by the text are in them. Also, Tifa isn’t the symbol of a woman left behind, she IS a woman left behind. Because her man has left her behind in his penance quest. Being ‘left behind by a man’ requires a man in a relationship to be left by.
That does not spell out Cloti is canon.
Also please read pg 232, it says that the High affection is optional. Page 232 is bolded in large letters right on the picture of Cloud and Tifa next together by the Highwind. SE is saying please read the page and note that Cloti is only a fanon.
But again, it doesn’t say it’s OPTIONAL (And even being optional doesn’t prevent something from being canon, but we’ll use the term here for consistency’s sake). In the primary mention of the scene, it discusses that Mutual confirmation happens. In the sidebar, it mentions that there is a deviation, another version. The other version isn’t detailed, just that it exists.
Meanwhile, at the start of the FF7 section, the high highwind scene in its entirety is listed as one of the most notable and important scenes in the game. Odd that such a scene would be purely optional with no canon version.
CR, I’ll get to you over in the forums.
@ Ryu
Mutual does not mean love, or romance. It just means that they share the exact same feelings underneath the HA. That’s all the SE quotes are saying, that Tifa and Cloud share the same feelings together, it does not say that they hold romance feelings together underneath the HA. You could share mutual feelings with a dog, enemy, or friend. Saying that sharing mutual feelings are the exact emotions as love, doesn’t make any sense.
Cloud
“After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to
you, I would come to help.”
(Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)
Tifa
“Cloud…? Do you think the stars can hear us?”
(She gazes off to one side)
Tifa
“Do you think they see how hard we’re fighting for them?”
(Cloud looks up at the sky.)
Cloud
“I dunno… But…”
“Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And
believe in ourselves…”
“Someday we’ll find the answer. Right, Tifa?”
“That’s what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream.”
^
They share the same emotions that they are A) fighting for the planet and B) this could be there last day on earth, and Cloud and Tifa share the same feelings that they should both believe in themselves that they can beat Sephiroth and save the planet, not love.
Cloud
“Hmm… I wonder…?”
“Everyone has an [b]irreplaceable something[/b] they’re holding on to…”
“But this time, our opponent…”
Cloud does say that everybody has a irreplaceable something they’re holding on to, but he could mean anything. He could mean Tifa, but he could also mean the memory of Aeris. But Tifa says after Cloud says this…
Tifa
“Hmm… But that’s all right, even if no one comes back.”
“As long as I’m with you… As long as you’re by my side… I
won’t give up even if I’m scared.”
Tifa says even if nobody comes back. So Cloud meant that everybody left and are now saying goodbye to their friends, family and children. Tifa mentions that she won’t be scared facing Sephiroth, because Cloud will be there.
Cloud
“Sorry. Did I wake you…? It’s almost dawn, Tifa.”
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa
“Umm… G, good morning… Cloud.”
“Give me a little longer… Just a little bit longer…”
Tifa realizes that they will never might have this moment again, so she wants those final moments to last longer, again there’s no ” I love you’s ” or ” No I don’t want to loose you ” mentioned between them yet.
Cloud
“This is probably the last time we’ll have together……”
^
Yes again, Cloud mentions that this could be their final time on earth. So the mutual feelings C and T share are not romantic, but their feelings for what could be their final memory alive.
Again, Cloti = not fact, Cloti= Fanon since ’97
@ Ryu
Mutual does not mean love, or romance. It just means that they share the exact same feelings underneath the HA. That’s all the SE quotes are saying, that Tifa and Cloud share the same feelings together, it does not say that they hold romance feelings together underneath the HA. You could share mutual feelings with a dog, enemy, or friend. Saying that sharing mutual feelings are the exact emotions as love, doesn’t make any sense.
But that’s not what I am saing. I am saying we are told these mutual feelings ARE of love, just as we are told that Ingus and Sarah, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Dagger, Aldebert and Beatrix, and Tidus and Yuna are also doing what they do out of romantic love. Same as Cloud’s date does what they do out of love. In the same vein, we know that Galuf and Krile, Sabin and Edgar, and Tina/Terra and the children have non romantic love for each other, because that’s what the section discussing them is all about.
Cloud
“After all, I promised. That if anything were to ever happen to
you, I would come to help.”
(Tifa opens her eyes and looks up.)
Tifa
“Cloud…? Do you think the stars can hear us?”
(She gazes off to one side)
Tifa
“Do you think they see how hard we’re fighting for them?”
(Cloud looks up at the sky.)
Cloud
“I dunno… But…”
“Whether they are or not, we still have to do what we can. And
believe in ourselves…”
“Someday we’ll find the answer. Right, Tifa?”
“That’s what I learned from you when I was in the Lifestream.”
^
They share the same emotions that they are A) fighting for the planet and B) this could be there last day on earth, and Cloud and Tifa share the same feelings that they should both believe in themselves that they can beat Sephiroth and save the planet, not love.
But that’s not the whole of the scene. There’s also Cloud’s line about having so much to Tell Tifa but not having the words- how nothing has changed since he was a kid- the Risque line about how words aren’t the only way to show how you feel, Cloud’s response of just her name, the pan and fade upwards, Tifa’s embarassment the next day, Cloud wanting Tifa by his side ‘in a different way than before’ in the aftermath of the final battle, and the fact that their inclusion on the ‘For the One I Love’ scene means that this mutual confirmation of feelings is directly related to romance. This is a serious hurdle you have yet to overcome.
Cloud
“Hmm… I wonder…?”
“Everyone has an [b]irreplaceable something[/b] they’re holding on to…”
“But this time, our opponent…”
Cloud does say that everybody has a irreplaceable something they’re holding on to, but he could mean anything. He could mean Tifa, but he could also mean the memory of Aeris. But Tifa says after Cloud says this…
Let’s see, what has Cloud said he’s fighting for? A personal memory. Who is associated most with Cloud’s memories? (A hint. It’s not Aerith.)
Tifa
“Hmm… But that’s all right, even if no one comes back.”
“As long as I’m with you… As long as you’re by my side… I
won’t give up even if I’m scared.”
Tifa says even if nobody comes back. So Cloud meant that everybody left and are now saying goodbye to their friends, family and children. Tifa mentions that she won’t be scared facing Sephiroth, because Cloud will be there.
Yes, she takes comfort in the presence of Cloud.
Cloud
“Sorry. Did I wake you…? It’s almost dawn, Tifa.”
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa
“Umm… G, good morning… Cloud.”
“Give me a little longer… Just a little bit longer…”
Tifa realizes that they will never might have this moment again, so she wants those final moments to last longer, again there’s no ” I love you’s ” or ” No I don’t want to loose you ” mentioned between them yet.
There were never any ‘Love you’s between Cecil and Rosa, or Laguna and Raine. Or Wakka and Lulu. And those are the Final Fantasy Couples I can point two who had kids together! In actuality, that word doesn’t come up much in Final Fantasies. Hell, in the original version, Yuna didn’t say she loved Tidus. She thanked him.
Cloud
“This is probably the last time we’ll have together……”
^
Yes again, Cloud mentions that this could be their final time on earth. So the mutual feelings C and T share are not romantic, but their feelings for what could be their final memory alive.
Again, Cloti = not fact, Cloti= Fanon since ’97
‘We may never get another sunrise, so I want to spend as long as I can sleeping on your shoulder’ strikes me as entirely romantic. But again, you’re trying to argue against plain and simple fact. You do not see this scene as romantic. But Square Enix does. They’ve told us it and the confirmation of feelings are romantic things. That’s what it being included on the page entirely devoted to characters being romantic means.
Cloud and Tifa are a fact even without the in your face nature of the FTOIL page. Even without it, we know that the feelings are feelings for each other. They cannot be mutual feelings about other things, but each other.
Look, Cloud and Tifa have had feelings for each other since they were kids. They became aware of these feelings in the lifestream, and confirm their feelings for each other at the end of the story. They then proceed to live together and raise kids together. Cloud’s period of living at the church is noted as a brief exception to this, after which the two reach a greater commune and resume living together. Cloud and Tifa have a shared future.
By any regular metric, that’s enough to realize two characters are romantically involved. That there’s another woman potentially involved doesn’t change that. There’s no reason to raise the standard of evidence for FF7, and yet that is what has been done in the LTD for at least half a decade now, to avoid the simple, obvious conclusion.
question? I’m wondering why some people after commenting Leave this C-A thing at the end…just wondering
also I wonder if people here have life other then arguing over a fictional love triangle…just asking cause from reading all these comments I smell so such much butthurt fans.
We continue it at the LTD thread found on the forums.
I am a Cloud Tifa fan but.. I think the translation of the scene Under the Highwind is INCORRECT. It is not ‘WITHOUT USING WORDS’ but ‘FEELINGS WHICH WORDS CAN NOT EXPRESS.’
On the other hand, it does not completely brush away the idea that they sort of had sex during that scene. Because in Japan, they do not use the word SEX but use other ways of saying it. If the FEELING that Cloud and Tifa have is LOVE or 愛 (ai) sometimes 恋 (koi) in Japanese and one should notice that Square used the term 確かめ合う in the picture, mixing the two words, we would come up with the expression 愛を確かめ合う (ai wo tashikameau) which means ‘make love’.
I really AM wondering where the cleriths are!I mean c’mon i was expecting some new theories EVEN after that to have some material to laugh about!hahaha
Ok srsly sorry for being mean to Cleriths . But i am certain that you can finally let sweet Aerith rest in piece with her first and true love Zack and leave our love birds Tifa and cloudie alone!I do love Aerith as a char but is just that i love Tifa even more…So yea!Cheers Ryu!!!!
oh btw i am A Cloti! Maybe that wasn’t clear enough :P:P:P:P
the other “loveteam” will make another story to this! oh c’mon, accept the fact , CLOTI is canon. believe or not! tifa is way hotter and more gorgeous than the other girl(she’s boring)! 🙂
IDK why but I just knew from the start that it was CloTi.
Cloud’s shy so if he can openly show his affections for Aerith, means he don’t like her. But, when he’s with Tifa, he’s quite so very shy. So that’s whyyy 😀
Hi there. I just recently played trough FF7 and was hooked. I even watched, read and played everything there is to it, except BeforeCrisis due to me not being able to get my hands on a japanese phone. I read the summaries thou. I read a lot about this love-triangle as well Anyways…I think the evidence presented here (or anywhere for that matter) is way not enough to deem any couple “canon”. For this there needs to be either kissing, extensive hugging, hand-holding or explicit statement of feelings, which none of is given throughout the entire world of FF7 including KH, dissidia, itahki, etc. Only hints and little quirks that suggest one way or the other are given and I think this is done on purpose. a HUGE amount of FF7-fanism is ONLY due to this “Love-triangle” and the creators know this. So they will never explicitly declare one couple or the other canon, for they would lose half their fanbase for FF7 either way. Anyways we all know there WILL be a countinuation to the FF7-Universe and I will bet my clean, soft arse that Square will do the only right thing and let be player decide the couple. So until then just relax 🙂
Oh dear noob. If only it was this easy, we would’ve just all been friends a looong time ago.
– “I think the evidence presented here (or anywhere for that matter) is way not enough to deem any couple “canon”. For this there needs to be either kissing, extensive hugging, hand-holding or explicit statement of feelings”
Ignoring the utterly arbitrary nature of this statement (and the blatant goalpost shifting we have seen countless times). I wonder how many couples that have shown up in FF games (not just the main ones) this would apply to?
My guess would be “not many”.
Also.
– “which none of is given throughout the entire world of FF7 including KH, dissidia, itahki, etc. Only hints and little quirks that suggest one way or the other are given and I think this is done on purpose. a HUGE amount of FF7-fanism is ONLY due to this “Love-triangle” and the creators know this.”
Giving credence to things like KH and ISS when talking about the story and massively inflating the importance/popularity of the “who Cloud loves” aspect are both hallmarks of a certain segment of the fandom.
FINALLY. I’ve been waiting for this day to come! I’m so tired of Clerith fans telling people that Cloud and Aerith were the canon couple of FFVII. I’m not saying they didn’t share anything special, but that they were merely really good friends. There were so many instances that hinted a relationship between Cloud and Tifa. Especially during the Lifestream and Highwind sequences. 1. Tifa got on a whole new level with Cloud when they were in the Lifestream. Tifa is single-handedly the #1 person that knows who Cloud really is (CLOUD isn’t even #1!!). She helped him piece back his memories and his real personality. I think that says something. 2. They had sex during the Highwind scene. I don’t know why Aerith fans try to rebuke this. The creators even said that they were originally going to make the scene more risque, but TONED it down. They didn’t mean get rid of it altogether, but to make it a little more subtle for the little kiddies. This is just in the OG game. But when you go to other games like Crisis Core or Kingdom Hearts, you’ll see something more between Cloud and Tifa. Like in KH2, Tifa was Cloud’s light. He kept running away from Tifa because she was the light. When she finally caught up with him, he finally received the light–which only happened because Tifa was around. Also In the case files (Tifa’s case: On the way to a smile), it talks solely about Tifa’s new life with Cloud–her family. AND NOW. They have been officially named the canon couple. They were even grouped together with other couples like Squall and Rinoa, Garnet and Zidane, and Tidus and Yuna. THAT HAS TO MEAN SOMETHING. If Clerith fans find an excuse for this one, I wouldn’t even know what to freaking say.
W00t! I always knew Cloud and Tifa were definitely the canon couple, but I never would’ve thought that far. lol and begins a new daydream about Cloti…
Honestly, the love grows from childhood friend basically is not my taste in every fandoms. I love tragic couple and I used to like Clerith more than Cloti although I keep open my mind about the high possibility of how CloTi could be ended. (it’s like in another fandom I always prefer Kenshin x Tomoe than Kenshin x Kaoru and Inuyasha x Kikyo than Inuyasha x Kagome). After I played CC, Zerith is on my top now (besides, they’re too sweet). But, accept canon or not is different, I’m happy now it has been confirmed. For me, Zerith is the past and CloTi is future, both of them are canon.
Clerith? Well, I don’t know about Cloud feeling, I think Aerith died or not, when he found his true self and throw out Zack’s shadow, he keep back to Tifa. Then. If Aerith didn’t die, he could tell about Zack to her and feel sorry (well, he only knew Aerith said her boyfriend might be run off with another girl and I think Cloud had to clear it as legacy). Besides, I believe Aerith started to love him since Gold Saucer date. It’s fair and normal for every person, whose his/her lover has dead, to move on and love another new, I couldn’t blame Aerith for this. But, after I played CC, it couldn’t be compared about had been loving a person for 7 years deeply to just started to love new person in few weeks that you still don’t know the real him. Then reading “Maiden who Travel Planet” makes me hurt. I’m glad that novella is not canon thing. I could say Aerith loves two persons now, but I don’t wanna say she loves Cloud more.
I really don’t see why people consider this article canon. Until Tetsuya Nomura comes out and says “Cloud loves ___”, the love triangle debate will not be over. I also feel like if Tifa and Cloud were canon, that would have been resolved in Advent Children. But it wasn’t and Cloud spends the ending credits not with her but on a ride to a meadow of flowers. This is article is well written and has some really good points, but Clerith fans also have good points as well. No offense, but I feel that it is ridiculous for anyone to say the debate is over and their ship is canon without outright and unarguable proof from Nomura. Just as there are quotes and references to a supposed relationship between Cloud and Tifa, there are just as many quotes and references to a relationship between Cloud and Aerith.
Natalya, Cloud spends the closing credits driving home to the 7th Heaven. He spends the post credit sequence with Denzel.
Nojima, the writer, has said that with Tifa is where Cloud belongs. Nomura described one of Tifa’s roles as someone’s beloved. They are stated to have a future together.
And no, there is nowhere near the quantity or quality of ‘quotes and references’ to the hypothetical relationship between Cloud and Aerith as there are to the one Cloud and Tifa have.
Also, my article is not canon and does not claim to be part of the canon. It is reporting on a canon fact. There is a difference.
All the information in this article comes from an official Ultimania. It is Square Enix, not I, who says Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings, and that these were related to romance.
If you wish to discuss this further, may I please suggest you sign up for the forums and continue the discussion there.
Again I state, I am not a shipper on either couple.
Mutual feelings on romance? Not once did it state that Cloud shares Tifa’s infatuation, yes definitely Tifa has feelings, however Cloud feels like he need to be there for everyone. All I see,”… is I feel like we should be by eachother’s side in all that is coming and I’ll always be there for you.” And “Words arent the only thing that get your feelings across.” Dang, well that can mean pretty much anything. Like yes, sex. But also, actions of protection, a gift, or even a hug! lol.
Even Tifa acknowledges “This moment will never happen again!” but, who knows. If Cloud was supposed to be with Tifa, how come I see so much Aerith presence and theme in all the spin offs?? The official artwork always has cloud and aerith together, in titles of like guardian and protection. I might have the titles wrong, but there are like 4-6 of them for the original artwork of FFVII.
I agree with Natalya, to me Nojima needs to just say it, what better way from the horse’s mouth. And I’m pretty sure the ending in Advent Children was stated as a extra ending and the director said he was going to visit aerith, that’s why he picked those flowers and set them beside the pictures, to include her in their lives still.
– “Mutual feelings on romance? Not once did it state that Cloud shares Tifa’s infatuation, yes definitely Tifa has feelings, however Cloud feels like he need to be there for everyone. All I see,”… is I feel like we should be by eachother’s side in all that is coming and I’ll always be there for you.” And “Words arent the only thing that get your feelings across.” Dang, well that can mean pretty much anything. Like yes, sex. But also, actions of protection, a gift, or even a hug! lol. ”
What exactly about this statement do you not seem to grasp?
“Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”
Mutual romantic feelings. it is literally spelled out here. How you can look at this and then state it says no such thing is beyond me.
– “how come I see so much Aerith presence and theme in all the spin offs??”
Why do Tifa and Sephy show up so much? In fact Tifa has as much AU presence as Aerith. And Seph nearly as much as those two. Stop making up arguments to try and gain “points” for Aerith.
And speaking of making arguments up.
– “The official artwork always has cloud and aerith together, in titles of like guardian and protection. I might have the titles wrong, but there are like 4-6 of them for the original artwork of FFVII.”
And more making arguments up
– “And I’m pretty sure the ending in Advent Children was stated as a extra ending and the director said he was going to visit Aerith”
With your flagrant dishonesty do you really expect anyone to believe you are not a C/A shipper? “Oh I don’t ship but it’s clearly C/A hurr hurr”
Umm, no offense to Cloti shippers, but wouldn’t it be bad if they officially had sex under the Highwind. I mean, they never mention it again, don’t appear to be like a couple afterwards, and in Advent Children, they are clearly at odds with each other for the majority of the movie. You can chalk this up to him being depressed, but that would be a pretty awful way to treat her if he’d had sex with her. The Highwind scene had multiple variations depending on how the player made Cloud act towards Tifa. Despite this “evidence”, there is plenty of evidence for Clerith and much better evidence for Cloti. I just think the “they had sex in the Highwind scene” is not a valid argument since that would make them the worst couple in the franchise for having slept together and then never sealing their “relationship”. And by the way, I don’t think anyone but a Square Enix official can declare the love triangle debate “over”.
I agree!! Unless she was a wham-bam-thank-you ma’am. What a sad and depressing relationship then, for those two in advent Children. I mean, he stays at Aerith’s church all the time!! What a slap to the face!
In FFVII he states “I am fighting for a memory I hold dear.” and in Final Fantasy Advent Children Tifa states “Which is it?! A memory or US?” and homeboy doesn’t answer……yeaaaah. Not good.
– “I agree!! Unless she was a wham-bam-thank-you ma’am. What a sad and depressing relationship then, for those two in advent Children. I mean, he stays at Aerith’s church all the time!! What a slap to the face!”
If by “all the time” you meant “for a very short time leading up to Advent Children at the end of which he moves back home where the creators say he belongs” then you would be correct.
– In FFVII he states “I am fighting for a memory I hold dear.”
No he doesn’t. STOP MAKING UP ARGUMENTS TO SUPPORT YOUR OBVIOUS OTP OF C/A.