[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
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I also don’t understand the whole appeal. Don’t get me wrong I love Tifa and Aerith, but I feel that CloudxTifa makes a poor love story. Outcast guy falls for popular girl who does not give him the time of day until he decides to join SOLDIER. Then said popular girl takes an interest years later and keeps crucial information about his past from him until it is too late. Then supposedly has sex with her outside in clear view of everyone on the Highwind and then proceeds to act like nothing happened. And then he suffers from depression after all of these events and seeks comfort in the place where he met another girl and does not let her in. And at the end drives on his motorcycle into a field of flowers. Even if he supposedly comes back to 7th Heaven (which he would have to have done eventually) he plans to spend his time with everyone, not just her. I just don’t see the appeal of this love story. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a shipper, but I have never really got Cloti and I need someone to explain it to me. I see them as close friends who are very important to each other, but I don’t see anything romantic between the two.
First off, let me extend an invitation to the forum proper to you as well. This conversation really is better suited there.
Nextly, no it’s not bad for the two to have officially had sex under the highwind, because Sex is not a panacea. Having it doesn’t mean that there cannot be trouble later on.
Nor, as you say, are Cloud and Tifa at odds with each other in Advent Children. They both want the same thing. The difference is that Cloud is depressed and doesn’t feel he deserves his family. And Cloud was happy and optimistic for quite some time after FF7. The first we see of him post FF7 is telling Tifa he can succeed in life where once he failed because he had Tifa with him.
Also, Tifa was interested in Cloud when he said he wanted in SOLDIER, but she believed he could make it and was waiting for his return- she wanted to impress him as he impressed her.
Tifa did NOT keep vital details from Cloud, she was confused because Cloud knew information that meant he had to have been at Nibleheim- which he was- even though she didn’t remember him being there.
As for seeking comfort, Cloud was not seeking comfort at the church. Cloud was seeking FORGIVENESS. Cloud had run from his comfort, from his happiness, to find that forgiveness.
And no, Cloud does not drive into a field of flowers. Cloud is heading home ON THE ROAD after a day of deliveries. Watch Reminiscence.
As for ‘no one but an S-E official can declare the love triangle over’, stating that Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual romantic feelings in an ultimania is exactly that. Cloud and Tifa have declared their feelings for each other. That’s the end of the love triangle.
But again, please, join us on the forum. There is a thread dedicated to this topic already.
This amuses me.
As a FFVII fangirl (GIRL!) who likes Cloud, Tifa and Aerith but doesn’t go mad shipping them with anybody, I can say I was/am safely neutral. And, in my neutral position, watching the two factions in battle was/is absolutely hilarious at times.
Yet, even with this confirmation, the AerithxCloud shippers descend like bats outta hell like “RAWR U LIE, CLOTI EEZ NAUT CANONZ!!1!!!1!”. And they still do. To this day. So no, the war is not over. It died, came back to life and continues to haunt the fandom as some kind of lust-fueled zombie. And this isn’t even counting the craziness that the yaoi options (which I also despise) bring to the table.
Yes, this is amusing indeed.
Ugh, yet there’s still this place that remains completely convinced that Cloud/Aerith is canon.
http://cloudxaerith.deviantart.com/
It’s like talking to a brick wall.
It’s both hilarious and sad at the same time.
This doesn’t prove anything. Obviously Cloud had feelings for Tifa…but if Aerith had not died, the Highwind scene would have probably never happened. Also, since when does sex equal love?
Even after Aerith dies, Cloud sought the Promise Land so he could reunite with her. At the end of the game Cloud exclaims: “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” — anyone who doesn’t think Cloud is referring to Aerith is either an idiot or being completely disingenuous. Furthermore, this quest for the Promise Land and search for Aerith is also included in numerous material Squaresoft has released since Final Fantasy VII.
Furthermore, Cloud thought it was Aerith reaching for him during the end of the game. It was ultimately Tifa who was reaching for Cloud, but his heart wanted it to be Aerith. And although Cloud ultimately ends up with Tifa in many respects, it is only because Aerith was taken from us by Sephiroth. Even in Advent Children, Cloud is shown to be distant and cold towards Tifa while living in Aerith’s Church! If how he acts towards Tifa and where he’s living doesn’t tell you where his true feelings lie, I don’t know what does.
In all my years of being a fan of Final Fantasy VII, I never realized the polarizing nature surrounding the debate about who Cloud loves more — Tifa or Aerith.
What’s clear to me is that Squaresoft wanted Aerith to be the heroine of Final Fantasy VII from the very beginning. The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII.
The creators of Final Fantasy VII have stated that Aerith, Barret and Cloud were the original three characters created for the game. This confirms, to me anyway, that Squaresoft always intended Aerith to be the central female character and love interest for Cloud. Just look at the original and official artwork Squaresoft produced. It’s all of Cloud and Aerith together! So the bottom line is this: virtually every Final Fantasy game has official artwork of the two intended love interests. Final Final VII’s original artwork shows Cloud and Aerith. ‘Nuff said.
Given the importance of Aerith during the opening scene, and the fact that Aerith was one of the three original characters, points to the theory that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together from the start. Sadly, I’ve discovered on numerous forums that the majority of Final Fantasy VII fans prefer the pairing of Cloud and Tifa. This has led me to a state of shock and bewilderment. What seems so obvious to me —the pairing of Cloud and Aerith— is not what the majority of fans see.
From beginning to end, I always felt Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together. Cloud chose to be Aerith’s bodyguard with the promise of one date. When Tifa asked Cloud to join AVALANCE, he only did so when Barret promised him a large sum of money. See the difference?
And while Cloud was growing up, him and Tifa were childhood acquaintances, not friends or lovers. Tifa ignored Cloud when they were kids, and they only had one conversation together — a conversation Cloud doesn’t remember. During this conversation, Cloud makes a friendly promise to Tifa, a promise Tifa begged Cloud to make. Hardly a childhood romance.
The facts are, Cloud only laughed and cried for one character — Aerith. This suggests his emotional connection to Aerith was deeper than his emotional connection to Tifa. When Aerith dies Cloud exclaims: “My fingers are tingling. My mouth is dry. My eyes are burning!”
The fact remains, Aerith is the only character Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for. In Cosmo Canyon Cloud says, “But, I’m —I mean— we’re here for you, right?”…The reason Cloud comes close to revealing his true feelings for Aerith is because of the wonderful chemistry and love the two have together.
Those that say Aerith was meant for Zack are also mistaken. Aerith states that she recognizes Cloud is different than Zack, saying to Cloud, “But you’re different. Things are different…” — Aerith loved Cloud for who he was and recognized that the past was the past. Aerith also states in the game that she wasn’t in a serious relationship with Zack, and that he was a ladies man who had probably moved on. In addition, during Aerith and Cloud’s Golden Saucer date, Aerith claims that she wants to get to know the ‘real’ Cloud.
And finally, the official commercial approved and released by Squaresoft states: “A love that could never be…” — obviously referring to Cloud and Aerith. Cloti supporters can dispute this all they want, but the official commercial approved by Squaresoft includes the word “Love” during the scene when Cloud holds Aerith in his arms. I need no more proof than that. But if all this still doesn’t convince you, just go look at the official artwork.
I’ll end this with…
Cait Sith:
“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!”
“Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!”
—You can claim Cait Sith isn’t always accurate with his predictions, but this was obviously an attempt by Squaresoft to further illustrate that Cloud and Aerith were meant to be together—
Cait Sith: “Poor Tifa!”
And GreyGardens chimes in with the usual nonsense.
See, I am a particularly neutral person that hasn’t chosen a side with either tifa or aerith being the intended. And I usually try and stay away from forum websites that all they usually do is say “No Tifa is! No Aerith is!!” stuff, but as far as I have noticed that the Aerith+Cloud relationship just seems to have better facts personally, than the Tifa+Cloud relationship. Yes, they may have banged but I dont see much love there.
And for what I have seen from the original artwork and commercials for FFVII, and even heir original character line up. Everything does seem to support the relationship for Cloud and Aerith. Just sayin’!
– “See, I am a particularly neutral person that hasn’t chosen a side with either tifa or aerith being the intended.”
Do you honestly think anyone believes that?
– “but as far as I have noticed that the Aerith+Cloud relationship just seems to have better facts personally, than the Tifa+Cloud relationship. Yes, they may have banged but I dont see much love there.”
Let’s see, Cloud and Tifa have confirmed mutual romantic interest which leads to spending their last night on earth together. We have them starting a new life with each other. We have them raising a child together and then adopting another child later on. We have them literally spending the rest of their lives together vs what? Some artwork and a commercial which you C/A shippers pretend mean anything?
i just got an email notification saying that someone replied to my eariler comment… but i cant find it so well. anyways, after reading so many comments on this website, ive learned that no matter what is said on compilations or sequels or ultimanias, clerith and cloti shippers are so die-hard that they’ve come to the point where no evidence or statements from square-enix themselves will faze them. so here it is, if square-enix said that cloud and tifa confirmed their feelings for each other under the highwind scene, and the headliner of that picture was “for the one i love” that is what i am going to go with. cloud and tifa like each other and thats it. i dont care who replies, to this comment, whether its someone supporting me or starts spewing stuff about clerith, i dont care. thats what the ultimania said and it is done.
You’re not making a bold statement. Most people get it. So no need to be so melodramatic about it.
Although I do find it funny that you lump in “cloti” with the small segment of the fandom who doesn’t get it.
and you dont need to be so rude with your comments, ok? 🙂 but i understand what you mean about the cloti part. i reread what i said and it was badly put. so how do i put this in simple terms… both cloti and clerith fans are die-hard psycho with the love triangle debate. but this ultimania thing was in favor of cloudxtifa and clerith fans won’t accept the truth. but i’m a wee bit understanding with clerith fans’ ignorance because i know if things were in favor of cloudxaerith, cloti fans would act just like clerith fans right now. yes? also i was not trying to make a bold statement. i was simply saying that i will not care about what anyone else says about the LTD, since square enix already announced what was canon. huzzah!
Hahaha! Good Job Lynne! Anyone from either Cloti or Clerith fan base that has to be so rude is just plain ignorant. It just can not be helped I suppose!
I find your making shit up to be far more rude than any “mean” words.
1. All of the romantic couples shown on the Romantic Couples page in the Ultimania are not in variable scenes, except Cloud x Tifa and Cloud x Aerith. So although the Romantic Couples page shows all of the romantic Final Fantasy couples, the Ultimania makes sure to point out on page 232 that the pairing of Cloud and Tifa is an optional romance depending on which Highwind scene occurs. Omitting Tifa and Cloud from a page discussing Final Fantasy romance because the couple is based on a variable scene doesn’t make sense, but does warrant a distinction. A distinction Square was happy to give us.
2. Why would Square point out this distinction on page 232 if it wasn’t a valid distinction? I’ll tell you why: because it is a valid distinction. It’s a valid distinction because Final Fantasy VII is a story that incorporates the use of a love triangle. Square wants all of us to understand that although the other Final Fantasy couples are NOT optional; Tifa and Cloud are, in fact, an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene occurs.
3. Square also included a picture of Aerith and Cloud on the Romantic Couples page. Cloud is the only character shown with two different women, and he is also the only character show in two variable scenes (his scene with Aerith is the variable date scene, and his scene with Tifa is the variable Highwind scene). This seems to follow along with the idea that Cloud is in a love triangle and that it is up to each player to decide who he loves more. Why else would Square show Cloud with two women in two variable scenes on the Romantic Couples page? I’ll tell you why: Square wants to show that Cloud has love for both women and that it is each players choice to decide who he loves more.
4. Most everyone would agree that Cloud loves Tifa to some degree. This page is simply stating what we already knew based on the high affection Highwind scene. It is also stating the obvious because Cloud is involved in a LOVE TRIANGLE. Cloud loves both women.
-But how does Cloud’s love for Tifa take away from his love for Aerith?
-Hasn’t the story of FFVII always been about a man who loves two women?
-How does the high affection Highwind scene prove Cloud loves Tifa more than Aerith?
-Did Cloud’s love for Aerith simply disappear after this scene takes place?
These questions have always been at the very crux of this debate, and have yet to officially be answered by Square. All Square officially said was that Cloud loves Tifa in the optional HIGH AFFECTION Highwind scene (they point out this distinction clearly on page 232). So in my mind, all Square did was confirm what we already knew: that Cloud loves Tifa if you play the game a certain way. Square did not say, however, that Cloud doesn’t have a separate love for Aerith — a love that is clearly established throughout the game and is at the very core of the love triangle. This is also why a picture of Cloud and Aerith is also included on the Romantic Couples page.
5. Square has always given mixed messages about who the canon couple is for Final Fantasy VII on purpose because the story of Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle. It is a story about a man who loves two women for different reasons, and the level of love, and the kind of love he has for each woman is purely a matter of opinion and the decisions each player makes during the game. This is why Square employed the use of affection points! The Romantic Couples page in the Ultimania is simply more evidence that Square has always given us mixed messages.
6. In many ways, I feel as though the low affection Highwind scene is more accurate judging by the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children. I just can’t help but feel that the relationship shown in Advent Children is anything but romantic. Barret is also apart of Cloud and Tifa’s family, and nowhere does it show any intimate scenes between Tifa and Cloud. If anything, it appears as if Tifa and Cloud have a complicated and sometimes hostile friendship with one another.
Also in Advent Children, Cloud’s feelings toward Aerith are shown to be of guilt and remorse. But I also think they are feelings of love, and a desire for this love to continue in the Promise Land. In numerous material that Square has released since Final Fantasy VII, it shows Cloud searching for the Promise Land due to his guilt and desire for forgiveness. But Cloud’s guilt and remorse seem directly linked, in my opinion, to his never-ending infatuation, love and quest to be with Aerith in the Promise Land.
7. This all boils down to a matter of opinion and that’s why this debate continues to rage on. For anyone to use this single page as the end-all-be-all in declaring which couple is canon doesn’t make sense to me. And I don’t think Square intended for it to be used that way, especially because of the distinction on page 232 that they provided.
I also don’t believe that one single page in the Ultimania proves Square officially believes Cloti is canon. It just doesn’t add up to me. If they truly wanted to come out with an official position, I don’t think they would have chosen to do it so ambiguously on one single page (a page, I might add, that’s in Japanese and could easily be missed by millions of Final Fantasy VII fans). If they were to make such a bold declaration, I believe they would have done it differently and probably through a different platform. I also don’t think they would have included a picture of Cloud with Aerith on the same page!
The importance of this page seems to be over inflated; but I can understand why considering how long this debate has been raging. I truly believe if you asked Square about the page personally, they would be shocked to find out so much hoopla has been made over it. I don’t think they ever intended for this page to be used as official evidence to declare that Cloti is canon.
Clerith forever!
JT, first of all, those are all PRATTs. Second of all, if you want to continue the debate, please do it on the forum, not the front page. Thirdly, Welcome back, Blankbeat.
“Square has always given mixed messages about who the canon couple is for Final Fantasy VII on purpose because the story of Final Fantasy VII revolves around a love triangle.”
This statement doesn’t get any less silly the more you post it. It gets more so.
Cloud is the only main character on the Romantic Couples page to be shown with two different women in two variable scenes. If that doesn’t show that Square is continuing with the love triangle idea, I don’t know what does.
It seems OBVIOUS to me that Square purposely included Cloud with two women in two variable scenes to continue along with the love triangle. THIS IS CLEAR AS DAY.
FURTHERMORE, Square also provided a distinction on page 232 that clearly states his relationship with Tifa is optional depending on which Highwind scene occurs. This further illustrates the point that Square wants to make it crystal clear that this is a story about a LOVE TRIANGLE.
This article proves nothing! Silly Cloti shippers.
Cloud is the only main character with multiple instances where people confess to him- and it’s not just the two women, it’s three women and one man, and one of those women is included twice, once as part of the four people he can date- which is all the page says about those scenes- and once as the woman he confirms matching romantic feelings with.
There is no confirmation that Cloud romantically loved Aerith. Certainly none so clear as they eight times it’s mentioned Cloud and Tifa do. Please do not make false equivalencies between what the page says regarding the date and the highwind scene.
Square has given us plenty of evidence that Cloud loves Aerith too. For example, Square stated that Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart. The evidence is abundant on both sides because this is a love triangle. Given that this is a love triangle, of course Square is going to provide evidence for both sides — that is the very nature of a love triangle. All Square said about the Highwind scene is that Cloud’s feelings match in the high affection version. Square specifically points this out on page 232 for a reason — they want us to remember that FFVII is the story about a love TRIANGLE.
And yes, the date scene is extremely variable and has 4 versions. But they chose to show Cloud’s date with Aerith on the romantic couples page. Coincidence? I think not.
Cloud is the only character on that page shown with 2 women, in 2 variable scenes. Period. They chose to include a picture of him with Aerith FOR A REASON. Do you honestly think they randomly decided to include Cloud’s date with Aerith on a romantic couples page just for the heck of it? If they were truly trying to show that Cloti is canon they wouldn’t have included a picture of Cloud with Aerith, or they would have included a picture of Tifa’s date scene.
Common sense suggests that if you simply look at that page, you will see Cloud with two women (the only character shown with two women) and reasonably conclude that Square was continuing on with the theme of a love triangle.
I highly doubt Square (knowing how big of a debate this is within the fandom) would confirm it so ambiguously on one single age. All they said was that Cloud and Tifa’s feelings match in the HA Highwind scene. We already knew that! Where did they say the HA Highwind scene is canon? Why would they make a distinction on page 232?
All this page did was continue down the path that Cloud is torn between two women. Square has done what they’ve always done and given more evidence to both sides by providing pictures of Cloud with both women on a romantic couples page.
Square stated that Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart? Is it from DC guide book?
But, I read on ACC Post Card book which is newer than that game, they say that both Zack and Aerith are irreplaceable people in Cloud’s heart.
Unless Cloud is romantically inclined towards his promise with Tifa- which has also been engraved on his heart- then I think I’m going to go with the actual colloquial understanding of the phrase which means he will never forget her. Which makes sense.
They don’t have to say that the HA highwind scene is canon. What they SAID was that Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings of romance without words that night. This phrase, with minor variations, is repeated 8 times. Cloud and Tifa are a singular ‘key word’ in the Crisis Core Ultimania. Cloud and Tifa live together, belong together, have a future together, formed a family together, and have romantic feelings for each other together. Tifa is the mother of the family she and Cloud were forming, she sees him as the father to the children they raise together. She is someone’s beloved.
Cloud is happy- and getting happier- with Tifa and the kids. That, ironically, is the entire root of his problems. The happier he is, the guiltier he feels. To feel so guilty as to require divine intervention for the forgiveness of his failings, Boyo must have been damn happy.
SE only confirmed mutual feelings during the HA Highwind scene (SE made sure to point out this distinction on page 232). No need to point out this distinction if they are trying to show that the HA Highwind scene is canon. Why provide a distinction if your goal is to show that the HA scene is canon? Why include a picture of Cloud with Aerith on the same page? Why was Cloud the only character show with two women? Seems to me that SE is continuing with the love triangle concept by doing all of these things.
Furthermore, Barret is also apart of the Seventh Heaven Family. It appears to me that three friends are taking care of children together.
Cloud and Tifa don’t even sleep in the same room. No romantic scenes are shown between the two. If anything, their relationships looks very contentious. Very strange that SE decided to portray them this way if they are the canon couple.
The bottom line is this: SE has given evidence to support both sides because both sides are valid and neither is canon.
If Cloti’s would stop claiming their pairing is canon both sides could continue co-existing peacefully. Neither couple is canon because this is a love triangle. Period. It is up to each player to decide who Cloud loves more <— THAT is the canon answer.
– “SE only confirmed mutual feelings during the HA Highwind scene (SE made sure to point out this distinction on page 232).”
Where on this page does it say “only in the HAHW”? And while we are at it where on page 232 does it say that the HAHW didn’t happen?
Also every time you post “Seems to me” you might as well be honest and type “because I have to believe this”.
And I do find it funny how you people keep wanting to insert Barret back into 7th Heaven when he removed himself from that equation 2 weeks after the bar opened. And as far as we know ACC was the first time he had gone back. He clearly is not living there anytime after he leaves. In fact when the 7th Heaven family is talked about Barret is never mentioned. Odd how that works.
Also how do you know C/T don’t sleep together? We have one scene in CoT which clearly indicates just that.
Also when someone like you states that you don’t see anything romantic between Cloud and Tifa you might as well be honest again and say “nothing Cloud and Tifa could ever do would ever be considered romantic to me”
And the most hilarious thing of all? The idea that you clerith shippers are somehow perfectly fine with just trying to disprove C/T as canon. When before AC came out those of that fandom had no problem declaring C/A the “true and intended” pairing.
http://markprinceroxas.tumblr.com/post/22807421153/why-cloti-is-not-canon
if you can’t view it through that link, here is another link:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/topic/8357526/1/
This response should be posted on The Lifestream.
It is only fair to the Clerith perspective to have a chance to refute this post and have our perspective shared on the same platform.
Anastar worked very hard on this response and it deserves to be read and heard. She would love for it to be posted and wrote this essay to be spread around the web.
Her response has been reviewed and found to be full of quote mines, false equivalencies, question begging, jumping to conclusions, and other dishonest practices, intentional or no.
I have personally written a point by point rebuttal to her response to my article, she has yet to acknowledge it. Not only are we not under any obligation to give publicity to her diatribes, but given her conduct in her forum visit here, I’ll just be frank and say she’s ruined her chances of using our front page as her mouthpiece.
To Vendel:
To answer your question: it does say the HA Highwind scene happens — but only if Cloud’s affection level with Tifa is high enough. On page 232 it specifies that there are two versions of the Highwind scene, and that strong feelings are shown between Cloud and Tifa only if the affection points are high enough. Cloud’s feelings for Tifa are optional. This is stated clearly in the Ultimania.
Furthermore, just because Barret is off doing missions does not remove him from the 7th Heaven family. Even Cloud wasn’t living with everyone at the beginning of AC — he was living in Aerith’s church. Some attribute this to the guilt Cloud feels over Aerith’s death, but I feel it is linked to the love that could never be between them.
Cloti’s have yet to answer why no romantic scenes are shown between the canon Final Fantasy VII couple in AC. Cloti’s have yet to answer why a picture was also included of Cloud with Aerith on the FTOIL page. Why was the Cloud the only main character shown with two women in two variable scenes on the FTOIL page?
This all boils down to a matter of opinion and that’s why this debate continues to rage on. For anyone to use this single page as the end-all-be-all in declaring which couple is canon doesn’t make sense to me. And I don’t think Square intended for it to be used that way, especially because of the distinction on page 232 that they provided.
The bottom line is this: Square never said the high affection Highwind scene is canon, they provided a distinction on page 232 that says the Highwind scene is variable, and a picture was included of Cloud x Aerith on the same Romantic Couples page. Square did NOT say Cloti is canon. They want each player to decide for themselves.
The TLS article omitted very important information and the conclusions reached in that article are false. SE has been very clear: who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation. Neither pairing is canon. You can find official SE evidence that supports both pairings because this is a love triangle.
– “To answer your question: it does say the HA Highwind scene happens — but only if Cloud’s affection level with Tifa is high enough.”
It doesn’t say that on the FTOIL page. Stop making things up. And speaking of making things up. It’s Tifa’s rating that is the variable. Not Cloud’s. And it is not stated anywhere that Cloud (or Tifa’s) feelings are optional. So this would be another case of MSU (making shit up). Also could you please tell the class where it says the HAHW scene didn’t happen?
– “Furthermore, just because Barret is off doing missions does not remove him from the 7th Heaven family.”
No Barret himself does that when he gives Marlene to Cloud and Tifa to raise and doesn’t move back to 7th Heaven. And funny you should mention Cloud. 7th Heaven is described as his home. His wangsting for a bit doesn’t change that. And somehow I think it has slipped your mind that around 4 years have passed compilation time. And in those 4 years Cloud has been with Tifa raising Marlene and later Denzel. And Barret has been gone. This isn’t “off doing missions”. This is how these people are goign to live their lives.
– “Cloti’s have yet to answer why no romantic scenes are shown between the canon Final Fantasy VII couple in AC.”
Well if I see “Cloti’s” around I will be sure to let them know you want answers. Although I somehow get the feeling if I asked you to describe a “romantic scene” between Cloud and Aerith you would probably state all of them. Even scenes where they don’t appear together can be so C/A romantic it hurts right?
– “Cloti’s have yet to answer why a picture was also included of Cloud with Aerith on the FTOIL page.”
And you have yet to answer for why it matters considering the actual text on the page.
– “This all boils down to a matter of opinion and that’s why this debate continues to rage on.”
No. This all boils down to a handful of shippers who just can’t seem to let go. Who can look at a translation that outright states C/T share mutual romantic love for each other and declare it states no such thing.
– “The TLS article omitted very important information and the conclusions reached in that article are false.”
Of course the “very important information” that was excluded is really just the crap you people have been making up. And the “false conclusions” were reached by actually reading the text on the page rather than divining meaning from pictures, numbers and what the page doesn’t say etc etc.
– “SE has been very clear: who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation.”
Funny how they have never actually said that and yet is is clear. While things they do actually say like, mutual romantic love? Well that isn’t so clear.
–“It doesn’t say that on the FTOIL page. Stop making things up.”
On the FTOIL page it includes a reference to page 232.
–“And it is not stated anywhere that Cloud (or Tifa’s) feelings are optional.”
“Page 232:
Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection.”
There is more than one way for Cloud to feel about Tifa depending on how you play the game. Neither version has been declared canon.
–“No Barret himself does that when he gives Marlene to Cloud and Tifa to raise and doesn’t move back to 7th Heaven.”
Are you saying Barret is no longer Marlene’s father?
–“And funny you should mention Cloud. 7th Heaven is described as his home. His wangsting for a bit doesn’t change that. And somehow I think it has slipped your mind that around 4 years have passed compilation time. And in those 4 years Cloud has been with Tifa raising Marlene and later Denzel. And Barret has been gone. This isn’t “off doing missions”. This is how these people are goign to live their lives.”
Yet Cloud is found in Aerith’s church at the beginning of AC.
SE has always given us mixed signals about who Cloud loves because this is a love triangle. It is up to each of us to decide who we think Cloud loves.
–“Well if I see “Cloti’s” around I will be sure to let them know you want answers. Although I somehow get the feeling if I asked you to describe a “romantic scene” between Cloud and Aerith you would probably state all of them. Even scenes where they don’t appear together can be so C/A romantic it hurts right?”
TLS is making the claim that Cloti is canon according to SE. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you guys. Where are the romantic love scenes between the canon Final Fantasy VII couple? All the other Final Fantasy couples have romantic scenes that are crystal clear. Cloud and Tifa’s scenes are either ambiguous or variable. In addition, Cloud has just as many potentially romantic scenes with Aerith as he does with Tifa.
If anything, however, AC shows a very contentious relationship between Tifa and Cloud. Hardly romantic.
If Cloti is canon, why does SE have ZERO scenes of them being intimate?
All I’m trying to say is that neither pairing is canon and that SE has provided evidence to support both pairings. The burden of proof is on you guys to prove unequivocally that Cloti is canon. So far I’ve yet to see anything that proves this.
–“And you have yet to answer for why it matters considering the actual text on the page.”
Why it matters should be obvious to anyone looking at the FTOIL page.
If SE was truly trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why would they include a picture of Cloud with Aerith on the same page? And why (out of all the possible scenes) would it be Cloud with Aerith’s date scene?
Why is Cloud the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with TWO women in TWO variable scenes?
It doesn’t make sense that SE would include a picture of Cloud with Aerith on the FTOIL page if they were trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon.
Oh, and the text is irrelevant. The picture of Cloud and Aerith’s date speaks for itself.
–“Who can look at a translation that outright states C/T share mutual romantic love for each other and declare it states no such thing.”
It says the mutual feelings match in a variable scene. Neither version has been declared canon. Why is that? Because who Cloud loves is up to player interpretation.
–“Funny how they have never actually said that and yet is is clear. While things they do actually say like, mutual romantic love? Well that isn’t so clear.”
Nomura: “I’d say, [who Cloud likes] is all how you perceive the game. Cloud, as you know, is a very popular character, so I don’t want to confirm the answer either way. Since the players have affection towards him, I want to leave it up to the players to decide who Cloud likes.”
Nomura: “AC is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.”
Listen GreyGardens and see if you can wrap you mind around this. Because this is becoming tiresome. The FTOIL page does not state anywhere on it that C/T only reveal mutual feelings in the HAHW scene. It tells us simply that it happens. This tells us one of two things. Either A. The HAHW scene has to have happened. or B. That they share mutual romantic feelings in both versions. Nothing on the magical page 232 contradicts the FTOIL page. Stop trying to insert extra meaning into these pages . THAT is making shit up.
Also just because Barret doesn’t live at 7th heaven and C/T are raising Marlene doesn’t suddenly make him not her father. What a strawman argument.
– “TLS is making the claim that Cloti is canon according to SE. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you guys.”
Sorry chap. But it isn’t. The burden of prrof has always been with the people making the extraordinary claims. (It’s you people if you didn’t get the meaning there).
– “Why it matters should be obvious to anyone looking at the FTOIL page. ”
How about someone reading the page?
And holy shit look at what we have here folks
– “Oh, and the text is irrelevant.”
At least you finally admit your idiocy for all to see.
**Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection.** ~Page 232
The content of the conversation change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection (ie: player choice).
Let’s read on…
**If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other.** ~Page 232
Did you read that? –“If the degree of affection is high…”
Key word: **IF** the degree of affection is high.
If the degree of affection is low, deep subject matter and strong feelings are not shared (ie: “…the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection.” ~232)
Obviously SE is making a distinction for a reason.
Page 232 clearly states that the type of mutual feelings expressed between Cloud and Tifa depend on which Highwind scene occurs. The feelings expressed in the HAHW scene are different than the feelings expressed in the LAHW scene. Only IF the affection is high does the conversation lead to deep subject matter and shared feelings.
Where does it say the content expressed in the HAHW is canon? If by simply including this scene on the FTOIL page makes it canon, then the Aerith date scene is also canon.
Also…the FTOIL page clearly lists page 232 for reference above the picture shown with Cloud and Tifa. Why would it be listed for reference if SE wanted to show that the HAHW version is canon? Why would they decide to articulate once again that the love Cloud has for Tifa is dependent on player controlled affection points?
Funny that Cloud is shown with two women on the FTOIL page and no other Final Fantasy protagonist is. Maybe that’s because FFVII is unique and has a protagonist with two valid love interests. And maybe it’s because FFVII incorporates the use of a love triangle, thus making both pairings valid.
If Square wanted to show that Cloti is canon they would not be ambiguous about it. All the other FF couples have clearly established romantic scenes. Tifa and Cloud do not. The only one that comes close is the variable HAHW scene that is determined by each individual player.
Why does SE continue to provide evidence to support both pairings? Because it is a love triangle.
Virtually every bit of evidence used by both sides is debatable. This is intentionally done by SE. They want to allow each player room to interpret and determine for themselves who Cloud loves.
For instance…
Cloud lives with Tifa. Yet he is found living in Aerith’s church at the beginning of AC. This is SE clearly providing us with mixed messages. It is up to each one of us to decide what we think of all of this. And that is why Cloud is the only Final Fantasy protagonist shown with two women on the FTOIL page.
Why Cloti’s have to claim their pairing is canon does not make any sense. Evidence is abundant on both sides and it comes down to a matter of opinion — nothing more, nothing less.
Since you apparently refuse to actually read the translation above let me post it.
For the one I love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.
……..
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
………..
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Take special note of the part in bold. This is the one thing that is said to be up to Cloud’s behavior.
Also notice that this line, or any variation of it, is missing from the C/T entry.
Basic comprehension tells us that one of these things is variable, the other not. And no brief discussion of a gameplay mechanic is going to change that.
I like how it is stated that Cloud x Tifa are in good company on the FTOIL page because all the other couples on the page are canon. Yet…Cloud x Aerith are shown on the same exact page. To dismiss the picture of Cloud x Aerith simply because of the caption is laughable.
I’m sorry But I can seem to find Aerith’s name anywhere on that page. It must be an error.
But yes Cloud and Tifa are in good company with all the other couples listed.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
A separate section on the same page is titled “Scenes Involving Love Other Than Romantic Love” — this section talks about love other than romantic love such as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin of Final Fantasy VI.
However, the Cloud x Aerith date scene is shown under the section about romantic love. There is no reason to include this scene under the romantic love section when they have another section specifically for non-romantic love. If SE was trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon, why is Cloud the only protagonist shown with two women on a page showing romantic couples? The answer to this is blatantly obvious to anyone that is not a Cloti shipper.
In addition, FFVII is the only Final Fantasy on that page where both scenes in the romantic love section are said to have optional outcomes. Why is this? Because FFVII’s romance is based around a love triangle that is determined by player controlled affection points. Both pairings are valid — neither are canon.
Now to reply to your response from above…
SE stated on the FTOIL page that the date scene is variable. SE essentially pointed out the exact same thing in regards to the Highwind scene on page 232.
Why does SE have to point out the variability of the Highwind scene on the FTOIL page to make it valid?
If anything, dedicating an entire portion of another page to say that the Highwind scene is variable seems more excessive than the small caption beneath Cloud and Aerith’s date. To me, providing such a big distinction about the Highwind scene on a separate page seems a bit excessive for a company trying to proclaim that Cloti is canon.
The bottom line is this: to say the distinction about the Highwind scene is invalid simply because it is explained on another page doesn’t make sense — especially when the page providing this distinction is listed for reference clearly and blatantly above the picture of Cloud and Tifa.
Also, if SE said that Cloti is canon why were they not shown romantically in AC? All the other Final Fantasy couples are shown romantically except Cloud x Tifa. Why is that? …perhaps it’s because SE is purposely being ambiguous to continue with the love triangle?
Here’s some more quotes for thought:
“After stopping Hojo from going amuck, the conversation with Tifa before they rush into the Northern Crater diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud. When it gets low, the conversation in the scene that they spend the night will be apathetic and ends short. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa says “Were you listening?” and stamps on tiptoe. On the other hand, when degree gets higher, the conversation of the scene that they spend the night will have strong emotions. Next morning in the cockpit, Tifa will say “Were you watching?” and feels terribly shy” ~page 198, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
“Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together. At that moment, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud, the event of “dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn” and “Tifa’s reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance” will be different.” ~FFVII Dismantled, page 201
Oh and just in case you forgot what page 232 says:
“Deviation – Two versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa’s affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two’s conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarrassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly.” ~page 232, Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania
– “A picture is worth a thousand words.”
Yes and apparently one translation is worth endless lamentations from your particular fandom.
From the very start and beginning i knew that cloud and tifa had a close bond and i’m glad there cannon . I mean there’s like a lot of evidence that they should be together ^____^
I just have one question for you Ryushikaze, have you ever felt interested in a sequel that takes place right after FFVII:Dirge of Cerberus? Cause if so, whether Genesis comes back as a villain or hero, I bet there will be more scenes to see with Cloud and Tifa.
People keep saying they want to see a remake of FFVII, but why not see a final conclusion to the story, I bet a lot of things would be answered there, don’t you think?
I mean, you’ve see the secret ending to Dirge of Cerberus, right?
You know what’s amazing to me? Is that you Cloti/Clerith folk actually like to bash the other… I mean what’s the point? Who gives a flying fuck if one is canon or one isn’t or neither are canon or both are canon? People are gonna like what they’re gonna like. There’s no sense in coming in here and attacking the Cleriths for what they like and vice versa. Grow up people. It’s a 15 year old fucking video game…
From my experience those that try and claim they are above it all are for the most part are Clerith shippers who just want people to stop bringing up inconvenient facts.
Yep always knew it was Tifa, anyone who disagrees after this is just in denial.
I know it’s hard not having your way especially in a game like ff7 but Tifa is the canon couple.
Let’s take a closer look at the Highwind scene:
The picture shown on the FTOIL page is a screenshot of the scene “Last Morning”. It is NOT a screenshot of the scene “Understanding”.
During the scene “Understanding” (which is not pictured on the FTOIL page), Tifa says in the high affection version, “Cloud… Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking…”, to which Cloud responds with “…………”, and then the scene fades to black.
Now, you can interpret that the FTOIL caption is referring to the scene “Understanding”. However, I tend to believe that the FTOIL page is referring to the scene that is actually pictured. The scene that is actually pictured on the FTOIL page is “Last Morning”.
Here are the two versions of “Last Morning”:
LA Version:
Cloud “…It’s almost dawn…”
Tifa “H, huh…?”
Cloud “Morning, Tifa. It’s almost dawn.”
Tifa “Mmm… Good morning, Cloud.”
Tifa “Just a little longer… a little bit longer.”
Tifa “This day will never come again… So let me have this moment…”
Cloud “……”
(The scene fades to black.)
HA Version:
Cloud “…………It’s almost dawn…”
Tifa “H, huh…?”
Cloud “Sorry. Did I wake you…? It’s almost dawn, Tifa.” Tifa “Umm… G, good morning… Cloud.”
Tifa “Give me a little longer… Just a little bit longer…”
Tifa “This day will never come again… So let me have this moment…”
Cloud “Yeah… okay.”
Cloud “This is probably the last time we’ll have together……”
(The scene fades to black.)
Cloud allows Tifa to have her moment “without words” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”. Cloud may be more resistant to it in the LA version, but the moment still happens nonetheless. At the end of the scene Tifa continues to rest her head on Cloud, and eventually the scene fades to black. Tifa has her non-verbal moment with Cloud in both versions.
I believe that the caption on the FTOIL page is referring to this scene because not only does this scene match the screenshot on the FTOIL page (usually captions refer directly to the photo shown), but a non-verbal “moment” where feelings are expressed also takes place in this scene.
Since Tifa has her non-verbal moment with Cloud in both versions, this confirms that feelings are expressed without words in both versions of the “Last Morning”. However, the type of feelings expressed without words depends on which version of the scene “Understanding” occurred beforehand (cue page 232 for reference and clarification).
In the HA version a romantic scene takes place before the “Last Morning,” but in the LA version a non-romantic scene takes place. Thus, the “feelings without words” during Tifa’s “moment” can either be romantic or platonic depending on which version of “Understanding” came before “Last Morning” (cue page 232 for reference).
After the scene “Last Morning,” an exchange between Cloud and Tifa occurs in both versions:
Tifa “Hmm… But that’s all right, even if no one comes back. As long as we’re together. With you by my side, I’ll never give up no matter how bad it gets.
Cloud “It’s all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday. At least we don’t have to go on alone.”
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa “Yes… That’s right!”
(He nods)
From this I conclude that the feelings that were expressed without words in the scene “Last Morning,” are that Cloud and Tifa don’t feel alone anymore because they realize that they have each other.
The feelings between Tifa and Cloud can either be platonic or romantic, depending on which version of the scene “Understanding” took place prior. But just by Cloud allowing this moment of intimacy to take place in both versions means that their feelings of wanting to feel safe and secure before heading into the final battle matched without words.
Here’s the exact quote on the FTOIL page: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”
Well…
1. Cloud allowed Tifa to have her non-verbal “moment” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”
2. Tifa’s moment was “without words” in both versions of the scene “Last Morning”
3. The feelings expressed during this scene are that of not wanting to feel “alone” (as stated by Tifa and Cloud when they return to the Highwind)
4. These feelings can either be platonic or romantic depending on Tifa’s affection level and which version of “Understanding” took place prior (cue page 232 for reference)
5. The screenshot on the FTOIL is taken directly from the scene “Last Morning,” thus the caption must be referring to this scene and moment shared by Tifa and Cloud.
Therefore, the character and story summaries could be referring to either version of the Highwind scene since in both versions feelings are expressed without words during the scene “Last Morning”.
Oh and if you don’t believe that Cloud allowed Tifa to have her moment in the LA version because he replied with “……” (even though they are shown sitting together silently with their heads resting on each other, and the scene eventually fades to black), then you also agree that Cloud rejects Tifa (which is what I’ve always thought) when he replies with “…………” to Tifa saying, “Cloud… Words aren’t the only thing that tell people what you’re thinking…”. Consistency is important!
Furthermore, SE proclaims both Aerith and Tifa to be heroines of Final Fantasy VII. The FTOIL page is discussing love between the heroes and heroines of the Final Fantasy series. If SE was trying to unequivocally declare that Cloti is canon on the FTOIL page, why wouldn’t they have included a picture of the C/T date instead of the C/A date? Or simply not included a picture of the date scene at all?
What is the purpose of showing Cloud with Aerith under a page discussing romantic love between heroes and heroines? The answer should be obvious — there is no reason to include this scene unless there is the possibility of love existing between Cloud and Aerith.
To me, common sense suggests that this page is telling us that love can exist between either pairing (especially considering a love triangle is a firmly established component of Final Fantasy VII’s story).
I believe the canon answer is that Cloud loves both women but that it’s up to each one of us to decide whom he loves romantically.
Continuation of my above comment–
I could spend hours trying to convince Cloti’s that the hand reach scene is romantic, or that the Cosmo Canyon scene is romantic, or that the ending of AC is romantic, or that the quotes saying Cloud is Aerith’s Kobito implies romance, or that specific dialogue between Cloud and Aerith is romantic, or that Cloud living in Aerith’s church is romantic, or how Aerith’s Church is said to be Cloud’s Promised Land, or that the C/A date scene is canon, or how it is romantic that Cloud wants to find the Promised Land so he can be with Aerith, or that Tifa believes friends can form a family together, or that Barret is also apart of the 7th Heaven family, or that Tifa and Cloud sleep separately, or that Tifa feels a maternal bond towards Cloud, or that Nomura doesn’t know if Cloud and Tifa have a relationship, or how Zerith doesn’t disprove Clerith, or how Tifa says the family she formed with Cloud isn’t a “real” family, or how Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her, or how love can continue after death and that Aerith’s consciousness lives on inside of Cloud, or how a childhood crush doesn’t mean anything, or how the lifestream sequence doesn’t prove Cloti, or how Aerith starts off with 20 more affection points than Tifa for a reason (etc. etc. etc. etc.)……but Cloti’s don’t see the LTD from the same perspective as I do. And that’s fine. All I’m trying to show is that the FTOIL page is yet another example of SE leaving it up to each one of us to decide who Cloud loves romantically.
The reason I think this debate is so difficult is because SE has provided evidence that clearly shows Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa (ie: this is a love triangle). But what SE has not been so clear about is who Cloud loves platonically and who Cloud loves romantically.
And even if you don’t believe that the FTOIL page is talking about the “Last Morning” scene (ignoring the fact that pictures and captions usually match, and the fact that feelings are expressed without words during both versions of the “Last Morning” scene), I still maintain that all SE is saying on the FTOIL page is that Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple that depends on which Highwind scene occurs. Who Cloud loves romantically is not decided on the FTOIL page.
You should really change the headline of this page from “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over” to “Our OPINION is that Cloud loves Tifa”. Your ‘proof’ that Cloti is canon only comes from your opinions and therefore isn’t fact. SE hasn’t come out and said “Cloud loves Tifa and they’re in a romantic relationship” at all. SE has just shown that Cloud has two potential loves, and that in the ‘high affection’ scene, Tifa and Cloud share their feelings. That’s not showing that the Love Triangle debate is over at all. That’s just showing that in the High Affection Highwind scene, Cloud and Tifa share their feelings. Get your facts right before declaring that the Love Triangle ‘Debate’ is over…
The headline should be “This just in: Inconvenient facts cause endless lamentations from C/A shippers”.
Dude, it’s over. The date scene has four potential pairings, this was when Cloud was still messed up. That means Aerith is an option here not only along with Tifa, but also along the likes of Yuffie and Barret. The highwind scene next is when Cloud recovers and is his real self. Tifa is his only option here, and it doesn’t say anything about this scenario being optional over here. In other words, it straight up said they both confirmed their feelings for each other. If you go to p 232, it does say the affection can be changed depending on player, but it specifically uses this one to represent Cloud and Tifa in a love article. Not only that, it mentions the high affection scene MULTIPLE times across the ultimania, even in the 4 most impressive scenes section for FFVII.
Now let’s say it was an option. At least Tifa is an option for the real Cloud. If Aerith was a legitimate pairing for the REAL Cloud, don’t you think they would have said so in the article? They could have easily said “After Cloud regains his memories, he can have two pairings based on his behavior etc etc”, and have one of the scenes involve him reaching out to Aerith’s hand or some crap like that. But they don’t. It’s either Tifa or bust for the real Cloud.
So in summary, the pairings go like this:
Cloud under Zack’s memory: Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, Barret
Cloud post lifestream event: Tifa or bust
And based on him straight up letting Tifa know they were going to be together in CoT as the planet was being saved from meteor, the high affection scene is the only one that makes sense. That is unless he was being a grade A douche that night and decided to turn a 360 on Tifa after they beat Sephiroth. It’s done, the real Cloud and Tifa are a SE branded official couple.
I am really not a huge shipper on any three of these characters, I just know I LOOOOVE the game. However, I was reading the article and I re-watched the the whole scene. I just understand how without a ‘word, they understood their feelings matched.’ Yeah, I get that, but the whole scene was basically talking about how they were always going to be there for eachother. I say that all the time to my Best Guy Friend, and were both straight, and have never been involved like that. But I dunno, I believe it how you interpret a scene and so forth. Yeah, if anything they could have had some hey-hey-now! But even Tifa acknowledged “This moment with never happen again.” And Cloud, believes she means that because the world will end, says “Yeah, this probably will be our last moment togeher.
Because I believe, if he was completely head over heels in love with Tifa, how come he is so hung over with the loss of Aerith? And he says at the very end, of the game, ‘yes I know I can see her there.’ And Tifa has a look of of ‘yes I understand, and agree.’ Ouch! and he sees Aerith’s hand, and in every single expansion of FFVII Cloud’s theme is flowers, light, & Holy. All elements of Aerith.
In the Scene of the highwind cloud says I am fighting for a memory very dear to me. Even in Advent Children, Tifa says ‘A memory? or Us?’ I mean, either that memory is of zack, but I am pretty sure it’s Aerith.
Hey though, completely not biased or anything, but all answers are so vague given by the creators, instead of saying without saying a word their feeling matched! Or else they wouldn’t have allowed “The maiden who walks the planet” to be entered into the FFVII compilation. On how goo-goo-gah-gah Aerith is over Cloud, and he apparently is SUPER torn up about her death…..I say, They need to straight up say ‘I love Dis B, not dat B!’ lol ;-P Until then, I honestly don’t think this will squash this life long debate…..sorry, that’s just me.
But hey, if it is Tifa and Cloud, hey they do kick boot-ay. Till then No chosen side for this girlfraaaand!!!
Just give it up. No one will ever buy your “I swear I don’t ship C/A” stance. Not with you spouting one nonsensical C/A argument after another while dismissing what this translation is telling you out of hand.
Do yourself a favor and stop pretending.
The point of the FTOIL page was to show romantic couples, regardless of optionality. Tifa and Cloud are a romantic couple, but only if you play the game a certain way. And since the goal of the FTOIL page was to show romantic couples, it only makes sense that the FTOIL page would include the high affection Highwind scene. This does not mean, however, that the page canonizes that version — it simply means that SE chose to put the high affection version of the Highwind scene on a page discussing romantic couples BECAUSE Cloud and Tifa are only a romantic couple if that version takes place.
Look at it this way — why would SE include the LAHW scene on a page discussing romantic couples? That would not be appropriate given the context and goal of the FTOIL page. The only version that would be appropriate to include on the FTOIL page would be the high affection version. In my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to include the HAHW scene on a romantic couples page because Tifa and Cloud are a romantic couple in that version occurs. But this does not mean the FTOIL page has canonized that version, it just means that Cloud and Tifa have the potential to be a romantic couple if you play the game a certain way. I think TLS is misrepresenting the point of the FTOIL page and over-exaggerating its importance. Furthermore, SE notes on a separate page that the Highwind scene is optional. Who is to say that page is more or less canon than the FTOIL page?
The bottom line is: The FTOIL page is discussing romantic couples. And even though Tifa and Cloud are an optional romantic couple, SE decided to include them on the FTOIL page anyway. That seems perfectly reasonable, especially because they specified on a different page that the Highwind scene is variable. But given the context of the page, it is only appropriate that they included the HAHW scene. That doesn’t mean that a page talking about romantic couples canonizes that version, it simply means that that version was the only appropriate version to put on a page discussing romantic couples.
Context is everything.
The Cloud x Aerith date is also pictured on the FTOIL page, and has been stated to be canon in other places. On the FTOIL page, however, the Cloud x Aerith date is not specified as being canon. So does the FTOIL page trump the other times the Cloud x Aerith date has been discussed? If the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does that mean the caption under the Clerith date talking about optionality is canon, therefore superseding the other times the Clerith date has been discussed as canon? How do we determine which materials are more valid than other materials? What supersedes what? What if SE says one thing somewhere, but then says something completely different somewhere else? I think this all points to a bigger picture which is that the love triangle is and will forever remain up to interpretation.
Obviously SE has stated that the Highwind scene is variable multiple times. But they’ve also stated that the date is variable multiple times. But then they’ve also (at times) given special treatment to the Clerith date and the HAHW scene. So based on this, I’d say we have to look at the context. The FTOIL page is under the context of romantic couples, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include — but that does nothing to canonize that version into the storyline.
Furthermore, all the other times the Highwind scene is addressed, SE has never specifically says what type of feelings are expressed.
The only time SE says they expressed their feelings “without words” is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, the only time you could argue that SE specifically referred to the HAHW scene is on a page discussing romantic couples, which given the context of the page, makes sense. But it doesn’t mean anything with regards to canonizing the HAHW scene into the canon story of Final Fantasy VII. And yes, the HAHW scene has been pictured from time to time, but that could just be a placeholder — which is the same argument many Cloti’s use against the Clerith date being pictured on the FTOIL page.
The screen-shot of Cloud and Tifa shown on the FTOIL page happens in BOTH versions. Tifa asks Cloud for a silent ‘moment’ and rests her head on Cloud in both versions. So, in both versions Tifa and Cloud confirm something “without words”. In the LA version, those feelings are of companionship.
It is obvious Cloud and Tifa share a special bond, and before heading to the face Sephiroth, it only makes sense that these two would share an intimate moment together. And given that two versions exist, one has to be platonic and one has to be romantic. But the bottom line is: in both the platonic and romantic version an intimate moment is shared between Cloud and Tifa without words. This means that all the times SE says they confirmed their feelings to match, it doesn’t necessarily have to be romantic because the intimate moment where Tifa rests her head on Cloud happens in both versions (this is the exact moment pictured on the FTOIL page). Also, in both versions they state when they go back aboard the Highwind that they are both not afraid of what is going to happen next because they have each other. This means mutual feelings are expressed in both versions, and can either be platonic or romantic.
Whenever I read articles revolving around love that are from generic video game websites, I notice that most of the time Cloud x Aerith are viewed as the intended pairing of Final Fantasy VII.
Here are the three examples I’m referring to:
1. The Greatest Video Game Couples ~IGN
Cloud and Aerith (Final Fantasy VII)
“Sometimes video games genuinely shock you – and Aerith’s untimely death was one of those moments. The game seemed to be setting her up to be hero Cloud Strife’s main love interest, and then suddenly (before even the end of the first disc, for heaven’s sake) she’s dead, just like that.”
2. 5 Worst Final Fantasy Couples ~GamesRadar
“Final Fantasy VII is fondly remembered by its fans as a love story – specifically, a love story between spiky-haired mercenary Cloud and dowdy flower girl Aerith. But as many of you probably already know, it doesn’t have to be that way.”
The pivotal moment in the game’s romance subplot comes while the party is staying overnight at the Golden Saucer amusement park. Most players will see the following sequence unfold as a date between Cloud and Aerith, but if you play your cards a little differently, Cloud will ignore Aerith in favor of busty martial artist Tifa. And if you play your cards wrong, he’ll end up going on a date with his hulking, gun-armed best friend, Barret.”
3. Dating according to videogames ~Gamesradar
“…This shows her that he’s sensitive and appreciates her useless hobby, which sets her at ease and plants the first seeds of their legendary romance…”
Obviously some websites refer to Cloud x Tifa — but I think this happens less frequently, which speaks to a much larger point. If you only played the original game, the romance between Cloud and Aerith is obvious to the majority of gamers. Although the compilation material might lead some to a different conclusion —or simply reaffirm Cloud x Aerith— it seems that for the majority of those who have only played the original game, they tend to believe Cloud x Aerith are the primary Final Fantasy VII couple. And this isn’t by accident.
When you play the original game, it is obvious SE is setting up Cloud and Aerith to be the primary romantic couple of the game. The flirtatious and romantic undertones during their interactions are obvious.
The opening scene of the game revolves around Aerith, with the “Loveless” sign appearing above her. The juxtaposition of Aerith walking the streets of Midgar, with Cloud simultaneously jumping from the train, sets these two up as the primary characters and love interest of Final Fantasy VII. This, of course, leads to Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date, telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, reaffirming his commitment to being Aerith’s bodyguard at the Shinra headquarters, two canon dates, an intimate confession at Cosmo Canyon, a wedding prediction from Cait Sith, and an “undying” feeling for Aerith that becomes “engraved in his heart.” According to SE, Cloud is Aerith’s koibito. If you can’t see the romance between these two you are either delusional, or have an unreasonable bias against Clerith, especially if you consider that a love triangle is specifically incorporated into Final Fantasy VII.
And because the Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is not only canon, but also the most common date to achieve, most gamers (who have probably never read anything about the love triangle debate) walk away from the game remembering that Cloud and Aerith share a date. A date, mind you, that occurred after numerous romantic moments. Furthermore, Cloud’s reaction to Aerith’s death was more emotional than everyone else’s reaction for a reason — he had a romantic love for Aerith, whereas everyone else had a platonic love for Aerith. The romantic imagery during the burial scene is undeniable.
Then, at the end of the game, Cloud also expresses his desire to meet Aerith in the Promised Land — a place of supreme happiness. This is not just because of his guilt, but because of the romance he shared with Aerith. The very reason he has so much guilt is because of the love he had for her. His guilt and his love are not separate…in fact, they overlap and underly each other immensely. All of this leaves gamers with the overall impression that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. This is even more likely if you received the low affection Highwind scene.
Yes, Final Fantasy VII incorporates a love triangle into its storyline. Yes, I’m sure some walked away thinking Cloud and Tifa were the intended couple. But I think the prevailing notion was that Cloud and Aerith were the intended couple of the game, and I see this over and over again on generic, non-bias video game websites.
Sure, you can say most of these people have no knowledge of the compilation material and are therefore uneducated. But the original game is the most important and valid piece of material we have — and it appears that the prevailing opinion from those who have only played the original game is that Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple (or that they, at the very least, shared a mutual romance). In addition, the compilation material has just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence (depending on your interpretation) so that point is moot.
It also seems as though SE has confirmed Cloud and Aerith as the intended or primary Final Fantasy VII couple through other games such as Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia. Cloud and Aerith are almost always shown together in merchandise, in other video games, in artwork, and make numerous cameo appearances together (Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy IX, anyone?). This feeds into the prevailing idea that they are the primary love interest of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud and Aerith are given preferential treatment because they are, afterall, the hero and heroine of the game. It is only natural that they are viewed by most as the intended couple of the game, and it is only natural that SE portrays them as such.
Furthermore — Cloti’s always say the commercial confirming Cloud x Aerith (“A story of a love that could never be…”) is not valid because it was released by an advertising company (even though SE likely approved the commercial, and for all we know SE helped create the commercial). But I’d say the commercial is yet another example of the prevailing idea that Cloud and Aerith are seen by most people as the intended couple of Final Fantasy VII. Whether it was SE, a promotional company, or a mixture of the two, obviously whoever created the commercial came away from the original game thinking Cloud and Aerith’s love was obvious enough to include in a commercial.
But if you believe that it was only a promotional company that created the commercial, some might be so ridiculous and say that they came up with the slogan simply because they saw a man holding a woman, so they assumed they were in love. But I think that actually proves how obvious Clerith is. The burial scene, by itself, seems to convey an obvious sense of romance. The scene is inherently romantic.
Sure, Cloud’s the main character — but I think SE would have created a cut scene that incorporated all of the characters laying Aerith to rest if Cloud and Aerith were only friends. Instead, SE wanted to convey an intimate scene of Cloud laying his romantic interest to rest. And the fact that those who created the commercial came away from the burial scene with the notion that it was, “A story of a love that could never be…” speaks to the obvious romance that SE was portraying between Cloud and Aerith throughout the game and in that scene. Imagery is sometimes more powerful and meaningful than dialogue.
Sometimes I think a small minority of Cloti’s deny what is painfully obvious to everyone else. For example, what Cloud says to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon is not explicitly stated to be romantic. However, SE has intentionally made everything regarding the love triangle slightly ambiguous. But if you were to take a poll, I’m betting the majority of people would feel that the Cosmo Canyon scene was very romantic (especially if you consider what occurred prior to Cosmo Canyon, the context of the situation, and the clear romantic undertones). The same can be said of Cloud agreeing to be Aerith’s bodyguard, their two canon dates, the wedding prediction by Cait Sith, Cloud telling Marlene he hopes Aerith likes him, the burial scene, Cloud wanting to be with Aerith in the Promised Land, etc. etc. All of these examples, when looked at separately, but especially when taken together as a whole, paint an image of an undeniable mutual romance.
Clerith is obvious to everyone who doesn’t have a Cloti agenda, and it doesn’t surprise me in the least that most generic video game websites consider Cloud and Aerith the primary romantic couple of Final Fantasy VII. The evidence is undeniable.
And in my opinion, the compilation confirms Cloud x Aerith even more. It is obvious Cloud still has a desire to be with Aerith in the Promised Land because he is not happy living with his “family of friends”; a family that Tifa doesn’t even consider a “real” family — a family that has always included Barret. It also doesn’t surprise me that Cloud was living in Aerith’s Church — a single, separate, solo bedroom might get kind of lonely. It also might get frustrating living with someone who continually treats you like a child instead of as an equal. SE has stated that they have “no idea” if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, and they maintain that the love triangle is up to interpretation.
I’ll be the first to admit that there is evidence that supports Cloti. But do I think it counteracts or outweighs Clerith evidence? Absolutely not. Cloud has been called Aerith’s koibito, and Aerith is engraved in Cloud’s heart. I maintain that from the moment Cloud and Aerith met they had an undeniable attraction towards one another. This attraction eventually blossomed into a romance; a romance that has carried over into the spiritual world — The Promised Land.
1. The Cloud x Aerith Golden Saucer date is confirmed as canon within the compilation:
A: “#111: The Planet’s largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. A PROMISED date [there is only one promised date in the game] that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now…Aerith: “I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different… No, Cloud… I’m searching for you…” ~Final Fantasy Art Collection
B: “In Aerith’s case, if you play the game normally,the partner that generally comes will be Aerith.”~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled
C: “Oh, Cloud…I enjoyed our date at the Gold Saucer. The view from the gondola that night was really beautiful. I’ll never forget it. I’ll never forget you, Cloud…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
2. Aerith Gainsborough: “A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life” ~DoC game manual, Square Enix
3. “Cloud was her friend, her koibito (lover in Japanese) – a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected.” ~Case of Lifestream: White, Square Enix
4. “The place where he awakens. That is Cloud’s Promised Land……When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself. And when he turns around—- “she” is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong. Back to the current of life flowing around the planet” ~Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, Square Enix
——Cloud awakes in Aerith’s Church where he shares a spiritual connection with her. Where Cloud awakes is his Promised Land — his supreme happiness. This means Cloud’s supreme place of happiness is with Aerith in her Church. Tifa is lumped in as one of Cloud’s friends in this passage.
5. “…I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet…the Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there…” ~Cloud Strife
6. “I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That’s all that matters.”~Aerith Gainsborough
7. “A story of a love that could never be…” ~Official Square Enix commercial referring to Cloud x Aerith
8. “At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.” ~Aerith’s monologue in Gongaga, Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
9. Aerith brought Denzel to Cloud (very important to know when talking about this “family” that has been created):
“Denzel had collapsed in front of Aerith’s church. That’s why I thought Aerith lead him to me.” ~Cloud, Case of Tifa, Square Enix
10. Cloud to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon: “But, I’m -I mean- we’re here for you, right?” ~Cloud Strife
11. “Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.”~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix
12. “When Aerith thinks of Cloud and Zack’s similarities, she sees that the present Cloud is not the real Cloud. Her meaningful lines like, “I’m searching for you” and “I want to meet you” all mean that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, although he’s not aware of it himself.” ~page 31, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega, Square Enix
13. “First off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike. Two completely different people, but look exactly the same. The way you walk, gesture… I think I must have seen him again, in you… But you’re different. Things are different…” ~Aerith, Final Fantasy VII
14. The hand reach scene at the end of Final Fantasy VII.
15. “After solving the puzzle about Cait Sith’s replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith’s affinity. Cait Sith’s lines, which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith’s wedding, now makes it more painful.” ~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled, Square Enix
“Looks good. You are perfect for each other!” “Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!” — “Poor Tifa!” ~Cait Sith
16. Cloud is searching to be with Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of Advent Children. Cloud also keeps Aerith’s flowers on his desk in his single bedroom.
17. “Each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his undying feeling for Aerith even to this very day…” ~Nomura, Square Enix
18. “But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered.” ~Nomura, Square Enix
19. Cloud agrees to be Aerith’s bodyguard for the price of one date.
20. Cloud is living in Aerith’s Church at the beginning of Advent Children because that is where he finds peace after his diagnosis —(living in a room by himself in a “family of friends” due to extenuating circumstances doesn’t seem to cut it). Remember, Aerith’s Church is Cloud’s Promised Land — the place where he finds supreme happiness and shares a spiritual connection with Aerith.
21. (Note: this now the canon version of this scene)
Marlene: Guess what? Guess what? Aeris was asking me lots of questions. Like what kind of person Cloud is. I bet she likes you, Cloud!
Cloud: Let’s hope so.
Marlene: I won’t tell Tifa.
22. In Advent Children, when Sephiroth asks Cloud what he cherishes the most, the first image that comes to his mind is Aerith.
23. “As for Cloud… He sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.” ~Nomura, Square Enix
24. “You should have… An older girlfriend, one that would take care of you. I think that would be the perfect type for you.” ~Mrs. Strife (Cloud’s Mom)
25. Cloud and Aerith share a date at Green Park in the Sector 6 Slum. Cloud and Aerith share two canon dates in Final Fantasy VII.
“Date in the Park: In Scene 04-10, Zack and Aerith have a date in Green Park in the sector 6 slum. An identical situation is seen in “FFVII” as well, which features a scene of Cloud and Aerith on a date in the same park.” ~CC Ultimania, Square Enix
26. Cloud tells Aerith her eyes are “impressive”
27. Cloud only laughed and cried for one character — Aerith
28. Cloud has a “mysterious” feeling for Aerith
“After the explosion of First Reactor, Cloud met Aerith while running away alone. Cloud left the place, remembering the mysterious feeling he had for Aerith from the small conversation. He then reunited with AVALANCHE safely, and left for their base…” ~Final Fantasy VII Story Playback, Page 111
29. Cloud x Aerith have official SE artwork together, which is similar to other canon Final Fantasy couples
30. Cloud felt at “peace” with Aerith in her Church
31. “It was the sound of Cloud’s heart cracking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he had towards Aerith’s death, the blame towards himself and the hatred he had for Sephiroth…There was nothing she could do about Cloud’s suffering and the pain ached in her heart.” ~Maiden of the Planet, Square Enix
Cloud’s heart broke when Aerith died.
Just to refine a few of my points:
1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.
2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. If the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does that also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date?
I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what?
If you argue that evidence besides the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, then can’t you also argue that other evidence besides the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional?
My opinion is that you have to look at the context under which SE is providing the information to make this judgement call. And given the context of the FTOIL page, it does not make the HAHW scene canon within FFVII’s storyline.
It seems that often times SE says one thing one place and them something completely different in another place. Maybe that’s because the love triangle is up to interpretation and SE does not want to make either pairing canon.
3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene is used, it was also being used as a placeholder.
4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about words not being the only way to show someone how you feel is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. So the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.
5. Tifa and Cloud share an intimate nonverbal moment in both versions. In fact, the picture used on the FTOIL page is a moment that is in both the low affection and high affection version — Tifa resting her head on Cloud.
In both versions, after this intimate moment takes place, Tifa and Cloud go back aboard the Highwind and a conversation unfolds where they agree that they aren’t afraid to face Sephiroth because they have each other. Since this conversation aboard the Highwind happens in both versions, these feelings can either be platonic or romantic.
Mutual feelings and intimate moments are in both versions, therefore it is never clear which version SE is referring to when they say Cloud and Tifa’s feelings matched below the Highwind.
5. There is just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence. Even if the FTOIL page was valid (which it isn’t), that doesn’t take away all of the Clerith evidence, nor does it take away Cloud’s separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith. In addition, the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC is VERY ambiguous, and there are tons of quotes/evidence that pokes holes in the idea that they are in a romantic relationship.
The LTD will forever be up to interpretation.