[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
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I also seem to remember reading somewhere that when the game was in development, the original “night before the final battle” scene had Cloud leaving the chocobo pen aboard the Highwind, and then Tifa, wrapped in a blanket, sneaking out afterwards, thus implying a literal roll in the hay. But they cut that scene out because of the rating or something.
Though I could be wrong!
Well DUH Cloud would choose Tifa.
Aerith and Zack are dead!
(In other words, she’s the only person to-love-and-be-loved-back-by left.)
🙂
Hooyah.
“And the other… does not.”
I never said that other does not but it is my understanding that Cloti fans outnumber the Clerith fans in this discussion/debate and they tend to gang up on those Clerith fans without letting them make an coherent point. But you, thanks for simply assuming and making my point.
Speaking of another assumption:
“Also, Cloud, very flirtatious?”
I thought stating she waited four years would be clear enough, but I meant Zack. Aerith didn’t know who Cloud was prior to FF7.
Going back to the whole Tifa/Aerith nonsense, WHEN did Tifa ever devote her life to the vegetable Cloud? She didn’t even know what happened to him until late into FF7. Yeah, she clinged to him when he did remember who she was but he also had the strength of a 1st class SOLDIER and that made him useful to AVALANCHE. Therefore Tifa, also an AVALANCHE member, was stuck with him throughout FF7.
And you’re accusing Aerith of falling for a white knight? Tifa may have thought the antisocial Cloud was cute but she took real interest in him after he told her he’d be a SOLDIER to protect. Tell me that’s not falling for the white knight.
And I don’t really understand where you’re going with the whole ideal and reality thing but do note that both females fell for a man who offered them protection.
And what about Tifa not remembering the whole falling off a bridge? Regardless of whether your father is overprotective or not I’d think anyone would want to know how they wound up in a coma.
Now I admit, neither seems to have the personality to participate in casual sex but when it implies they engaged physically, it doesn’t directly state they had sex. Showing someone you share they’re feeling still doesn’t always mean that feeling is love. It could be friendship, or, since they’re both adults with needs, it could be horniness.
Now its clear that they’re something more in Advent Children because two adults of opposite genders living under the roof typically constitutes sexual relations and during that time they may or may not have grown to love each other in more than friends way as they both serves as parent figures for Marlene and Denzel. I wouldn’t know. This translator does not appear to work for Square Enix or know what Tetsuya Nomora was thinking. I just know what I’ve gathered.
Is that enough discussing for you?
And before Cloti fans start hounding again, here’s a previously posted comment that expresses my opinions completely:
“> Highwind scene is not optional: agree
see the “complete” scene isn’t
> Cloud and Tifa are living together
when? where? Cloud lives in Aerith’s church and after that, are they living together? I dunno.
> Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel live as a family: agree
1-in before, Marlene has a father, as you know
2-to live as a family is to be a couple? that’s your opinion. when people are alone in the world they bound like a family, Tifa and Cloud are childhood friends, very good friends if you wish. Both are orphans, they know each other, have memories together…
I mean, by living with something doesn’t mean they date, nor f***.
My point is Cloud doesn’t love Tifa, but Tifa loves Cloud.
PS. I haven’t play Dirge of Cerberus yet.
Tidus + Yuna = canon
Squall + Rinoa = canon
Zidane + Garnet = canon
Tifa + Cloud = unrequited love
my opinion.”
-I never said that other does not but it is my understanding that Cloti fans outnumber the Clerith fans in this discussion/debate and they tend to gang up on those Clerith fans without letting them make an coherent point. But you, thanks for simply assuming and making my point.-
Oh please, child, your statement was as transparent a barb as a glass bee’s sting. I was simply returning your serve. A point has been made, but I fear it’s not the one you wished.
-I thought stating she waited four years would be clear enough, but I meant Zack. Aerith didn’t know who Cloud was prior to FF7.-
Then you constructed the sentence quite poorly as its construction indicates Cloud as the person who is flirtatious, which makes no sense. Not that Zack is as flirtatious as folks wish to make about.
-Going back to the whole Tifa/Aerith nonsense, WHEN did Tifa ever devote her life to the vegetable Cloud? She didn’t even know what happened to him until late into FF7.-
UMMMMMMMM
When she DID? Mideel, wheelchair, lifestream, Nurse tells Cloud he’s very lucky…
-Yeah, she clinged to him when he did remember who she was but he also had the strength of a 1st class SOLDIER and that made him useful to AVALANCHE. Therefore Tifa, also an AVALANCHE member, was stuck with him throughout FF7.-
And when he was an absolute gibbering veggie, of no use to AVALANCHE, the world, or even her.
-And you’re accusing Aerith of falling for a white knight? Tifa may have thought the antisocial Cloud was cute but she took real interest in him after he told her he’d be a SOLDIER to protect. Tell me that’s not falling for the white knight.-
Ummm… I never said it wasn’t. In fact, I wasn’t bringing Aerith into the comparison at all. I was comparing Tifa circa AGE 13 to Tifa AGE 20.
-And I don’t really understand where you’re going with the whole ideal and reality thing but do note that both females fell for a man who offered them protection.-
As this was not my intent, this point is irrelevant.
-And what about Tifa not remembering the whole falling off a bridge? Regardless of whether your father is overprotective or not I’d think anyone would want to know how they wound up in a coma.-
And if Tifa’s father simply lied, how would she know?
-Now I admit, neither seems to have the personality to participate in casual sex but when it implies they engaged physically, it doesn’t directly state they had sex. Showing someone you share they’re feeling still doesn’t always mean that feeling is love. It could be friendship, or, since they’re both adults with needs, it could be horniness.-
Or, as the page is ‘for the one I love’ and lists various attempts at confessions in the course of the main series titles, and contrasts it against non romantic displays of such, it’s probably romantic love.
-Now its clear that they’re something more in Advent Children because two adults of opposite genders living under the roof typically constitutes sexual relations and during that time they may or may not have grown to love each other in more than friends way as they both serves as parent figures for Marlene and Denzel. I wouldn’t know. This translator does not appear to work for Square Enix or know what Tetsuya Nomora was thinking. I just know what I’ve gathered.-
Both of these concerns, that Tres or anyone who translates this page does not work for S-E and that he ‘does not know what Nomura was thinking’ are both non starters.
1. The page as a whole is very cut and dry. The page is there for anyone to translate. We invite people to do so. Transparency, yay.
2. It is from an official S-E retrospective book on the major FF titles in the past 20 years. It is relating facts. It is essentially on the same level as ‘Nomura’s mind.’ Additionally, Nojima’s mind would probably be best. He’s the writer.
-Is that enough discussing for you?-
It is not on the forum as I requested, but it is good. Please, let us take this to the forum.
-And before Cloti fans start hounding again, here’s a previously posted comment that expresses my opinions completely:
“> Highwind scene is not optional: agree
see the “complete” scene isn’t-
Feelings are shared. Either the ‘complete’ version happens, or both versions contain the feelings without words.
-> Cloud and Tifa are living together
when? where? Cloud lives in Aerith’s church and after that, are they living together? I dunno.-
For two years minus a short period leading up to Advent Children, and from then after. See Case of Tifa where he makes a point to be home every evening, and several statements stating Cloud and Tifa live together before and after AC/C. Hell, it calls the time he spends in exile in the church
-> Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel live as a family: agree
1-in before, Marlene has a father, as you know-
This is true. And that father is not a member of the family unit to which Cloud is the father figure. Cloud is ‘the dad’ without being ‘her dad.’ We speak entirely of the family dynamic that exists at the 7th heaven, which Barrett is strictly NOT a part of.
-2-to live as a family is to be a couple? that’s your opinion. when people are alone in the world they bound like a family, Tifa and Cloud are childhood friends, very good friends if you wish. Both are orphans, they know each other, have memories together…
I mean, by living with something doesn’t mean they date, nor f***.
My point is Cloud doesn’t love Tifa, but Tifa loves Cloud.-
Our point is that Cloud has loved Tifa since he was eight, and that nothing has remotely led to believe that that has stopped.
Also, you are getting the logic backwards
-PS. I haven’t play Dirge of Cerberus yet.
Tidus + Yuna = canon
Squall + Rinoa = canon
Zidane + Garnet = canon
Tifa + Cloud = unrequited love
my opinion.”-
Cloud and Tifa- their night under the highwind, where they confirm feelings without words, is a a display of romantic love listed among other scenes where people are confessing romance, and contrasted to examples of non romantic displays of affection.
It. Is. Canon.
But if you wish to keep discussing, take it here- http://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5074 where it can be done justice. And don’t worry about Subby, he’s harmless.
TL;DR but I do apologize for posting all of this in the wrong.
I am always slightly amused by the people who will say on one had Cloud doesn’t need a relationship with a live person. He will forever pine away after his dead pink goddess. Then turn around and say Cloud had sex with Tifa because he is horny.
Way to go Cloud. You used the woman who loves you for sex. Then afterwords decide to torture her by saying you will stay by her side from then on. When the whole time you are just thinking of Aerith. YOU LOVE HER THAT MUCH!
Whoa.
Well this discussion escalated quickly and never died down.
Someone should probably take Ted Koppel down ‘cuz FF7 LTD,
You will NEVER die! 😀
The Love Triangle ended the moment Aerith died. The LTD for the most part ended with the compilation. You can only hammer home so many times and in so many ways Cloud and Tifa are the official couple. Most people get it.
As the page said. This is to put it out of it’s misery. The LTD that is.
Pikachu is the cutest and my favortie among the Pokemons.’;-
The Love Triangle debate will never ends to those who cannot accept their defeat! Hehe 🙂
CLOTI RULES 🙂
it will never end. not that some people can’t accept their defeat but because it isn’t officially stated.
*sigh* im getting tired of this debate.
sadly I can’t help myself.
I still got to defend my title.
Oh! i know. I’ll settle for being a CLEPHIROTH instread.
ahaha. kidding.
CLEPHIROTH!!!!
*laughs*
I don’t understand why people are posting so irrational comments.
Like Cloud was horny! [Cloud fans are offended and know he is nothing like that] and Tifa doesn’t deserve Cloud?! [Yeah sure like a girl who loved some other guy with same feelings and promises deserves him better……I don’t oppose or support any Cloti or Clerith but as a Cloud fan I can’t deny the fact that Cloud does love Tifa]
People think twice before you post something….
WOw…. still can’t believe it… THe love triangle…OVER??? this ain’t true. now there’s no point of getting excited trying to know who is for who. This page says CLOTI all over it. Damn. okay… fine… I guess Cloud look good with Tifa too… though sa tingin ko mas bagay sila ni Aeris.
holy shit, I almost had a HEART ATTACK when you showed that scan of the Cloud/Aeris date! Although….the fact that it’s over….is just….wow. Unbelievable!
‘without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.’
And you think because it is something phisical it has to be sex…and the feelings has to be love.
Because when you know you are going to sertainly die the only thing you feel is love , as in sex between lovers and not conforting each other, even when they just love each other like friends or siblings.there are many ways to interprete this but you choose to belive it is because Cloud loves Tifa…I supose that is why they are a couple in Advent children…wait they aren’t…even at the end. Nor is there any hint of it in Dirge of Cerverus and Kingom hearts 1 and 2.
Look I don’t care which pair is cannon Cloud/Aerith or Cloud/Tifa I like them both and it can be neither too. The thing is you people just see what you want to see.The way I see it Cloud Loves them both but not like lovers, because even in Kingdom hearts 2 he is not with any of them and he even runs away from Tifa.
Maybe Cloud need and is waiting for someone who does not remind him every day of all he has been going throu’…
Funny how an entry on a page about romantic love can be interpreted to mean anything but that huh?
Oh wait it can’t. Cloud and Tifa confirm their mutual romantic feelings without words. And since we are not 5 years old we assume that means something sexual. Not sign language. Considering the scene is just a toned down version of a scene where sex was blatantly implied rather than just heavily.
And yes they are a couple in Advent Children. And DoC. And KH means absolutely nothing about this discussion.
BUT I LOVE how someone comes on on here. Claims that this entry can mean anything. And that C/T have absolutely nothing going on between them. Then claim to be neutral on the subject. Nice try, but we have seen it all before.
masyado nang marami ang comments dito. pero kahit anong sabihin nyo….
CLOUD LOVES AERITH!!!!!!
NONE SAID IS TRUE ABOUT CLOUD AND TIFA!!!!
(VENDEL, PLEASE READ THIS:)
Oh, and, VENDEL, how come when you comment, you do it strongly. Based on my observations, when you comment you think that you’re number 1– though you’re not. Sorry. PEACE!!!!
You have done your comment quite strongly. Sadly it is in idiocy.
I didin’t want to sound rude. sorry. But I sounded stupid to you instead. I do appologize for that. *sigh* but I guess you never realize that most of your comments sounded quite stupid to me [and other people too 😉 ].
But I guess I can’t blame you for that.
Dude…is English your first language?
a reply after a year..
english in not his/her 1st language;
“masyado nang marami ang comments dito. pero kahit anong sabihin nyo….” – its Filipino
Ridiculous.
You are arguing with no one! Haha.
Goodluck!
Oh, geez. I’m getting tired of getting e-mails from this site.
It IS stated. Cloud and Tifa are listed as the canonical romance right there, on the page, under a heading that says “Romantic Love.” How much more blatant must it be?
And why does anyone even care enough to deny that? The fact that there is a canon pairing doesn’t mean you are not allowed to have a fan preference. But disputing the canon as “unclear” is just pointless. Why bother?
Christ.
Yeah, seriously, people. I’m tired of getting emails. Be mature; it doesn’t matter. Shut up.
Well if it isn’t a moronic blast from the past. How you doing glop? Still a shithead?
Vendel.
You’re more like an asshole or a bitch kinda type.
I like it. Though I hate it as well. I want to know you. though I might not like what I see.
A former die-for-our-ship Clerith fan here, but you know what, Word of God doesn’t lie. Cloti’s official.
Cloti = official
Clerith = they dont give a crap
*LET SHIPPERS FREAKIN SHIP PPL*
clotiforever<3333
More like…
Clerith = They pretend like they don’t care but react with foaming hatred whenever anyone says that CloTi is canon or that Clerith is just fanon.
whether it’s hatred or spite, does it REALLY matter? i dont think its ur problem, since ur a cloti.
this debate might be over, but that doesnt mean that Cleriths can’t ship anymore and whenever they like. It just won’t matter because *obviously* you know whats canon or not.
myself, i wouldnt care if Clerith were canon. If it were, then OH JOY! i would still be a Cloti no matter what. No, i wouldnt argue anymore – what would there be to argue about? canon is canon – but that doesnt mean i wouldnt stop shipping what couple i love best.
Vendel, i think ur taking this LT a bit too far. official is official. apparently the Analysis proved that. i just dont think people should flame Cleriths just cause of it. We’ve seen the light – hallelujah. We dont have to make others see it, too. If their light is Cloud and Aerith, then so be it.
You mistake me for a shipper. I could care less about shipping or shippers. Fanon doesn’t bother me.
And no they don’t “just ship”. To this day I still see people spreading BS that “it’s up to the player to decide” or “it’s open to interpretation”. No, it isn’t. There is an answer. And if you need to ignore that to enjoy your ship then YOU are the one with the problem. Not me.
It’s also funny how a few years back you still had quite the vocal “CLERITH IS CANON” community. Now they mostly get by with the ‘interpretation’ or ‘up to the player’ card.
i see. i didnt realize that. i always thought u were a cloti just cause of ur comments, so dont blame me.
but if fanon doesnt bother you, why were you flaming the Cleriths in LTD analysis about it?
honestly, when i first played FF7, i thought that whoever Cloud liked WAS open to interpretation. mainly cause u cant read the guys thoughts (suckish, aint it?) and cause u could choose Cloud’s answers and the date thing at the Gold Saucer.
unless SE openly says in person, straightout, that Cloti is canon, (which probably will never happen) i still kind of think it can be open to interpretation. i read the analysis well (SquallofSeed, u did a great job, btw) and i agree with all the evidence, everything. but maybe Cloti isnt official. maybe it’s just putting all the details and facts together and interpreting them as “Aerith’s dead with Zack. Yuffie’s with Vinny. Cloud lives with Tifa. They’re childhood buddies. The promise they made in Nibelhiem. They’re gonna be together.”
i dont have a problem.
You do realize that you are commenting on an article where SE openly says strightout that C/T is canon right?
Look, all Vendel wants to do is argue, and he won’t stop until people stop posting here. He obviously doesn’t care about the game; he’s just looking for a place where he can flame. He’s the only one still posting here that was arguing with me because no one cares anymore. I’m tired of getting emails hearing him saying the same things. Don’t talk to him, he won’t talk to you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if he can’t realise that, it’s up to everyone else to just leave it alone.
This is for everyone posting here. Please think about your opinion on your own and discuss it with your friends or elsewhere, not here. It’s not intended for a flame war, and I know that everyone who receives email notifications doesn’t want to hear it. Thank you.
glop are you still alive? I figured you might have forgotten how to breathe.
And anyone who looks at your comments on this thread should know you for the massive tool that you are glop. So please. For your own sake. Leave.
um.. ok. you took the words right out of my mouth.
im out.