News

The Love Triangle of FFVII – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD

by September 25, 2009 0 comments

First, while the narration that says, “Cloud was her friend, her koibito,” is made by the third-person narrative voice, it’s done as a reflection of Aerith’s point of view. It’s not a third-person objective voice making an irrefutable statement no more than Case of the Lifestream Black was when it made the following comment about Sephiroth’s defiance of dissolving into the Lifestream:

(Translated by Xcomp)
The planet was to be his to rule, and to become a part of that system would be nothing short of defeat.

Rather than making an objective declaration that Sephiroth was going to win and take over Gaia, it was simply using a third-person subjective voice that reflected what Sephiroth was feeling. That sort of writing makes for variety in sentence structure and more pleasurable reading. Constantly seeing “… he thought …” or “… she felt that…” would quickly get tiresome.

This style of writing shows up in Case of Tifa as well, where Tifa “called
out her daughter’s name” early in the story — the word daughter (“musume”) present in both the Japanese and official English versions. Marlene is not actually Tifa’s daughter, but, as explained a few paragraphs later, “That’s how Tifa would introduce her.” The earlier line simply reflected Tifa’s feelings about Marlene.

What’s also overlooked in this matter is that even if this was an objective third-person voice, it would be unreliable on the basis that there is no demonstration that Cloud and Aerith ever got together in the original game.

Up to the point in time where Aerith is thinking about Cloud while in the Lifestream — immediately after the end of the original game and already well after Aerith had died — there had been no significant scene of romance portrayed between Cloud and Aerith. Certainly even a date at the Gold Saucer wouldn’t be enough to make a word like “lovers” apply to them, especially given SE’s position in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 37) that “Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.” This would at least apply up to close to the point in the game where she died. The Ultimania comment is accompanied by a screenshot of the Gold Saucer date.

There was no time for Cloud and Aerith to become lovers or express such feelings to one another before her death.

The Clerith perspective, however, feels that Cloud had expressed such
feelings in Cosmo Canyon when he said, “But I’m….. we’re here for you,
right?” when Aerith was feeling alone after learning more about the Cetra. This point of view then takes Aerith asking Cait Sith how compatible she and Cloud are as a sign of reciprocity.

As well, had Cloud been clueless to her intentions before, it’s believed that he should have been able to pick up on it at that point.

This article will not venture to disagree that Cloud cared for Aerith. As
well, it wouldn’t disagree that he was attracted to her, comfortable around her, or even interested in her.

Furthermore, no disagreement shall be forthcoming that Cloud would have to be beyond slow not to pick up on Aerith’s intentions at the Temple of the Ancients.

Where disagreement arises on this matter is in whether either of these comments reflect a decision on Cloud’s part to begin a romantic relationship with Aerith, or that either comment rises to the level of qualifying as a mutual discussion that the two are now a couple. Such a conversation never took place between them.

For that matter, Cloud simply saying that he’s there for Aerith at a time
when she’s feeling alone is no more a declaration of deciding to be in a
relationship with her than was the similar comment Cloud made to Marlene in Advent Children Complete when he said it’s his turn to be there for her. Aerith certainly didn’t take it that way, at any rate, when he said it to her.

Also, “koibito” — when broken into its separate components, “koi” and “bito” — provides the understanding of a “loved person.” Given the purely romantic/sexual connotations of “koi,” it might be better read as “desired person.”

So Cloud’s simply Aerith’s koibito to her — and in this context, the word is probably better translated as “sweetheart” or “beloved.”

While on the subject of the word “koibito,” it’s been used in reference to Tifa before as well, in the Advent Children Reunion Files book (pg. 19). Nomura said, “There are many dimensions to Tifa’s character. She’s like a mother, a sweetheart [koibito], and a close ally in battle“:

tifa-1

A more accurate translation than that printed in English in the book would be, “Various positions come together in Tifa. She’s also like a mother, is also a koibito, and is also a close ally in battle.

The Japanese sentences (“Tifa wa ironna tachiba wo awase motte irun desu ne. Haha no you demo ari, koibito demo ari, isshou ni tatakatte kita senyuu demo aru“) contain separate thought endings for each noun Tifa’s identified as. The presence of “demo ari” — meaning “is also” — indicates the end to a complete thought, so Tifa is only described with “like a” for “like a mother.”

“No you” — meaning “like” — would need to be before each use of “demo ari” in order for Tifa to also be “like a koibito” and “like a close ally in battle.” She simply is identified as “also” (“demo”) being those things.

Though there’s been some debate about whether these words were used to refer to Tifa’s traits or to her roles, the word that became “dimensions” in the official translation was “tachiba,” meaning such things as “position” or “situation.” Basically, it refers to actualized, lived aspects of someone’s life, so “role” would make the most sense.

So, that leaves us then to identify who she’s like a mother to, is a close ally in battle to, and is a lover/girlfriend/desired person to. We know she’s like a mother to Marlene and Denzel, and is a close ally in battle to the rest of AVALANCHE. That leaves her to be a koibito to someone. Who else could it be but Cloud?

johnny

Though there have been counterarguments that suggest it’s Johnny — remember him? Yeah, probably not — since he’s still around in On the Way to a Smile: Case of Denzel and still likes her, it seems a rather insignificant matter in the large scheme of things. Johnny’s completely irrelevant to Advent Children and mentioned nowhere else in the Reunion Files.

His enduring crush on her is hardly worth mentioning alongside the children she’s actually raising and the teammates she’s actually in life-and-death battles with. Likewise, Rude’s crush on Tifa from Final Fantasy VII isn’t mentioned in either the Reunion Files or Advent Children itself, so it seems unlikely to be referring to him either.

Cloud’s feelings for Tifa — whatever they may be — are of significance to Advent Children, and are the only ones that would matter to be brought up in the Reunion Files — which, of course, is about Advent Children. While Cloud is never identified by name here, for that matter, neither was Aerith in the entirety of On the Way to a Smile: Case of Lifestream White. She was just known as “the woman” in the story. The same capacity for deductive reasoning that would lead us to conclude that the novella could only be talking about Aerith, however, would lead us to conclude that Nomura’s comment in the Reunion Files is most likely talking about Cloud.

It is this comment from Nomura, by the way, that I believe negates his earlier comment in Dorigama that he had “no clue” whether there had been a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa following the events of FFVII. For that matter, the notion that Cloud didn’t reciprocate the romantic feelings we all know Tifa had for him runs counter to a comprehensive analysis of all available data on the matter.

I’ll grant, Nomura has also made the following comments in an interview with Famitsu PS2, published in their October 24, 2003, issue:

I believe for those who formerly traveled with her as comrades and for the viewers, each carries their own feelings and love for Aerith. In this story, Cloud also carries his own undying feeling for Aerith, even to this very day… It’s relation with the church scene is… Yup. I’ll leave this part to your imagination. (laughs)

This interview, however, took place well before even the original Advent Children came out. Nomura was teasing the eager fans. He didn’t identify exactly what Cloud’s unique undying feeling for Aerith was, but he hinted that it would be related to the church and revealed in the film.

What is this feeling that’s ultimately given so much attention in the film? Guilt, as we’ve discussed before. The wolf that symbolizes Cloud’s guilt even appears in the church, and the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania refers to Aerith as a symbol of his failures to protect those he cares about(pg. 50)— reproducing Nomura’s comment here point for point, and explicitly identifying “Cloud’s unique feeling” as guilt: “Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to … protect those dear to him.”

For the record, the word used in Japanese and translated as “love” was “aijou.” Rather than sticking with that when talking about Cloud’s additional undying feeling, the word “omoi” — which usually means “thoughts” or “feelings” — was used. While it could be used to denote love or affection, its various possible meanings are far more numerous than the direct “aijou.”

Of course, Nomura also said that Cloud has love for Aerith, as “those who formerly traveled with her as comrades” would include Cloud. But, then, he said that everyone on the team had love for her. Cloud just has additional “undying thoughts” unique to him — and that was guilt. The same thing he’s got going on with Zack.

Not to be outdone just yet, there’s also a line from the Dirge of Cerberus instruction manual describing Aerith that is frequently referenced for LTD arguments in favor of CloudxAerith. In the official English version, it was translated as, “A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who Cloud would never forget.

Alternate translations have been offered by fans to the effect, “A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins who is forever engraved in Cloud’s heart.” This is certainly a more accurate translation, taken word for word, than the official one.

That said, I really don’t feel that it offers Aerith a completely exclusive position. She holds a unique spot in Cloud’s heart forever, no doubt, and not just one of guilt, yet, that said, another official source — the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania guide — says Cloud’s promise to Tifa about protecting her is also engraved within his memory (pg. 40).

For that matter, does anyone think that if Tifa had been the one to die, Cloud wouldn’t carry her around in his heart forever as well? Especially if she died right in front of him and he wasn’t able to do anything about it? Would she not be described in much the same way?

Obviously, he would, and she would. Cloud carries both women around with him, but inevitably in different ways.

So, in this zero-sum game, that leaves the two ladies balanced as far as the use of that particular idea goes.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

No comments yet

  1. Quexinos
    #1 Quexinos 8 September, 2009, 23:50

    Thank you very much for this ^_^

    Reply to this comment
  2. fairheartstrife
    #2 fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 00:07

    This was an awesome read. You make many well thought out, concise and clear points throughout. Thank you for taking the time to do these FAQs.

    Reply to this comment
  3. Stratus
    #3 Stratus 9 September, 2009, 00:41

    Bravo… lovely read, i agree with you and this was very well thought out and there were no bias comments on the matter… ^.^ finally things can be wat they were always meant to b Zack + Aerith and Cloud + Tifa ….. lol thank you

    Reply to this comment
  4. Splintered
    #4 Splintered 9 September, 2009, 00:47

    In before flamewar…

    I mean, awesome analysis.<3

    Reply to this comment
  5. Raquelborn
    #5 Raquelborn 9 September, 2009, 00:49

    It’s basically a summary of the LTD threads lol.

    Reply to this comment
  6. DaySekay
    #6 DaySekay 9 September, 2009, 01:09

    You are correct, I honestly don’t think there is any more subjects to pick, Cloud wanted forgiveness and Aerith/Zack where the only ones capable of giving it.
    I also think that after his “release from the guilt” life with Tifa is just a matter of time.

    Reply to this comment
  7. Death Sin
    #7 Death Sin 9 September, 2009, 01:10

    It’s always good to see a throughful yet still hard pressed factual analysis. I do think you focus all the “core” points of the LTD and do it in a simple yet objective way (backing it up with evidence from the series but, most importantly, from the comments and views of the Compilation creators/developers as well. The evidence has always been there for everyone to see… The latest Compilation titles have only made it all more clear. I sincerely believe the LTD has an answer and that is that Cloud and Tifa are meant to be (the same way Zack and Aerith are together in the afterlife).So what can I say more…? Not much, except “well done”.

    Reply to this comment
  8. Ryushikaze
    #8 Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 01:56

    I’ve made my other comments in the PM, but good job, man. Concise summation of all the common sense arguments that’ve been floating around for ages.

    Reply to this comment
  9. ZackFair1219
    #9 ZackFair1219 9 September, 2009, 03:12

    Wow, I always belived myself to be a Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith person, but I personally always hated Aerith because she started hitting on Cloud in the first place. I was pretty much on that thought the whole time until the last line about Zack’s Buster Sword and Aerith’s flowers of how Cloud knows that the two belong together as he and Tifa do. I do believe that my hatred for Aerith is now null and void.

    And still, well done to Squall_of_SeeD. I’ve read all the articles of summerizations he has put to the compilation and he never ceases to amaze me. Well done as usual.

    (Not to mention this one actually ended up making me go teary-eyed. :3)

    Reply to this comment
  10. ChocoboChick
    #10 ChocoboChick 9 September, 2009, 04:48

    You are my new hero, Squall_of_SeeD!

    Reply to this comment
  11. ForceStealer
    #11 ForceStealer 9 September, 2009, 07:57

    Very very well done. But this still won’t end the debate unfortunately.

    The only thing in all of that I didn’t inherently agree with was a pretty minor point anyway – Cloud’s crystal in Dissidia. I always figured it was the Holy materia, but I didn’t take it as really having anything to do with Aerith, just as it is FF7’s most notable “crystal.” Indeed, I didn’t even pick up on the fact that Cloud was referring to Aerith by the “one he wanted to meet.”
    True, many of the crystals are ‘generic’ symbols of their respective game, a lot of them are specific.
    The oddly named “White Materia” always appeared green and the size isn’t relevent as Zidane’s crystal should be 5x his size.

    But, as I said, minor point, and not one that I even consider to relate to the LTD.

    Reply to this comment
    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 08:07

      But again, if it were the Holy materia, why would it not be mentioned as a relevant personal connection to FFVII? If a feather belonging to Rinoa is worth a mention in Dissidia’s Ultimania, along with a reference to Zack in regards to his statement about the Buster Sword…why would the Crystal being the White Materia just be inexplicably forgotten? It’s not the same size or color, which would be necessary to equate it as such.

    • ForceStealer
      ForceStealer 9 September, 2009, 19:50

      Oh I know, if the Ultimania doesn’t mention it than it isn’t. I was just saying that I thought it was Holy but only for the reference to the Planet, not her.

  12. Squall_of_SeeD
    #12 Squall_of_SeeD 9 September, 2009, 09:12

    Thanks for your responses, everyone. I appreciate your kindness.

    @ForceStealer: I’d agree that the size of the materia wouldn’t be relevant if it seemed that Zidane’s crystal was supposed to be the actual crystal of creation. I think it was just a representation of it, though, for the very reasons I don’t think Cloud’s crystal is the White Materia — the size and the color.

    Nonetheless, thanks for your feedback.

    Reply to this comment
  13. Quexinos
    #13 Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 09:34

    I just read this again and I have to say again, this is really awesome XD
    I posted it on a couple sites and showed a couple friends too ^_^

    Reply to this comment
  14. thuthuy62
    #14 thuthuy62 9 September, 2009, 09:52

    Cloti loves this!
    Clerith doenst.
    Squall_of_seed’s just a Cloti!
    Nothing’s new.

    Reply to this comment
    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 09:54

      :kermit:

    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 10:08

      What an insightful and valid criticism. Did you read the article or what? Cause if that’s all you have to say, it doesn’t really seem like you did.

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 13:01

      HAHAHA.

      M’kay.

      And you’re a Clerith.

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 22:26

      … the saddest part? The only part worth mentioning here is the blatant mispelling of ‘doesn’t

      That and to note that I did indeed call that SoS would be labeled ‘just a Cloti’ when this hit.

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:53

      Nothing’s new indeed, :monster:.

    • Bisojo1218
      Bisojo1218 30 May, 2010, 05:42

      Bleah! is that all you have to say?!

    • kitty
      kitty 14 May, 2020, 08:29

      Yup

  15. Rin
    #15 Rin 9 September, 2009, 09:53

    I agree with my Friend Quexinos
    Finally, someone does an intelligent, well thought-out article on the subject…
    Too Bad it won’t Sway the Cleriths… Seriously, Nomura could actually go and say “All Cloud feels for Areith is Friendship, and Later Guilt. Not only does He Love Tifa, and wants to be with her always, but they do it every night till the sun comes up.” and they’d still deny it and make up excuses…

    And as for the “Koibito” thing. What I always say about that is, Yeah, “Koibito” means “Person who is Loved”, however, screw with the Kanji a bit and you get 鯉人 (Koibito) Which means “Carp-Person” Yes, Carp as in Fish. so I submit, that Tifa and Aerith are Cloud’s Fish-People. Cloud considers them to be a mutant race of Fish people.
    Argument Solved!

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 13:14

      You know what you’re talking about. Thank you, Rin.

      We’re not Clotis nor Cleriths here, we’re pro Fish-people!

      Unfortunately the fish-people isn’t Tifa and Aerith–it’s Cloud and Tifa. Tifa is a koibito to Cloud (Cloud sees her as a fish-person) and Cloud is a koibito to Aerith (Aerith sees him as a fish-person). I guess this would mean Cloud and Tifa are meant to be together, because they’re both mutant carps!

      (I laugh at anyone who takes that seriously.)

      Unless Nomura talks about Clerith positively, they won’t listen to anything else he says. Nothing will sway those Clerith, especially something that is TL;DR (too logical; didn’t read) to them. I don’t think they’d ever read anything as well thought-out as this anyway.

      (Now prove me wrong and read the whole article, and then rebut point for point. You know who you are.)

      PS: Squall_of_SeeD, you rock forever and ever. But… this article needs more Clack vs Clephiroth. XDDDD

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:55

      I’m now going to rename the LTD thread to the Broiling Fish Stew Thread.

  16. Lily
    #16 Lily 9 September, 2009, 17:31

    Ohhh, amazing arguments. Really. Nothing I’ve never heard before though… And I can think of hundreds of counter-arguments for every of yours that my fellow Cloriths and any reasonable Cloti will give much credit. I won’t start a new discussion, though.
    I’m just dropping by to say, please, will you stop this?? If there have been room for the triangle discussion through 12 years,
    1st – it isn’t now (or EVER) that this will be solved;
    2nd – this is one of the magics of the game that makes it everlasting, so why would you bother to ruin that??
    Even if SE releases an article intitulated “CLOUD AND TIFA MARRIES AND HAVE TWENTY CHILDREN” I won’t stop supporting Clorith, because I believe in them, as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.
    Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple. No one, I repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. It’s a triangle, for God’s sake, and what is left to a love-triangle if one of the extremities are cut off? Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters, there’s no logic in them getting in the bad side of half their fanbase. Think about that.
    Just one more thing… Stop bashing Clorith, will you? I’ve read your comments and I’m more disgusted than ever. You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa. I’ve never seen you refuting any Clorith arguments that wasn’t in the lines of “you Clorith are unreasonable”. I can affirm that my ship doesn’t do that! Who’s really unreasonable here???

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 18:04

      LOLOL Whut.

      “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple.”

      Please do the digging and show us. 😀 Join the forums so we can discuss this properly.

      “Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. ”

      Source, please? If it was SO clear, we should have seen it by now and ended this stupid LTD once and for all.

      So it will always be a triangle? I wonder why they made Crisis Core and all. Maybe they made CC so blatantly ZackxAerith until the end because they want the love triangle to continue? They even extended AC to show more of Zack. Uhh, yeah. The love triangle is still so a triangle. Who’s Zack Fair, First Class SOLDIER, again?

      “Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters,”

      Except no, there are three kinds of main ships in the fandom now. Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith. Zerith has grown quite big in the recent years, and Clotis are still more than Cleriths. Just FFnet is enough proof of that. Search for Cloud-Tifa fics, then Cloud-Aerith fics. Heck, even Zack-Aerith beats Cloud-Aerith. Internet numbers that you can clearly see with a click don’t lie.

      Maybe what you mean to say is that almost half of the fandom LIKES Clerith. I don’t mind that. My friends like it, a lot of people like it. WE DON’T CARE. They can ship the pairing they want to ship, but they can’t say which is canon and which is not when it’s not in their hands. Sorry to say.

      Also, please look at what the Clerith fandom is doing to the Clotis. Did Clotis ever make a hatelisting for Clerith? No. Is there a Cloti forum alive that bashes Cleriths behind their backs? No. Are Clotis making anti-Clerith banners and blatantly bashing characters on every other website they make? No.

      Who’s being unreasonable here? I beg you to search Cloti on google. What will you see? “Anti-Cloti” “Unofficial Cloti hatelisting” “Anti-Tifa” Wow, 12 years later, and they still haven’t matured.

      I should have been a full-fledged Clerith before, until I saw all of that. It’s a big turn-off.

      Just so you know, we have Clotis that absolutely love Aerith. I love Aerith. So why do Cleriths hate Tifa?

      What are you affirming that your ship isn’t doing? Don’t accuse the Clotis of being unreasonable. That’s just silly and downright hypocritical. And besides, what makes you think everyone here is a Cloti anyway? Jumping right down to labeling people who don’t agree with you?

      “You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa.”

      Did you watch ACC (the retcon of AC)? Actually, no, he thinks about Zack equally too. Are we supposed to argue that Cloud loves Zack just as much as Aerith and more than Tifa? So… Squall_of_SeeD is jealous that Cloud spent more of his time thinking about Zack and Aerith than Tifa, so he made a comprehensive analysis about the triangle of Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa? Wow, that makes a whole lot of sense.

      And before you label me as a OMGCLOTI, I’m actually more Fack than Cloti. Currently, anyway. Thanks to a Cloti shipper who’s writing an awesome ZackxTifa fic that I’m fangirling over right now, I got to like Fack more than Cloti. That doesn’t mean I want Fack to be OMGCANON. Things don’t work that way.

      I won’t stop supporting Cloti, even though it’s not my OTP. I won’t stop liking Fack just because it isn’t canon. I won’t stop supporting FFVII just because it’s practically as old as I am.

      See the freedom of choice?

      Oh noes some people probably didn’t reach this part of my comment before blowing their tops and getting emotionally involved with a video game pairing and wanting to flame me oh noes what do i do

      PS: OH LOOK HERE STARTS THE FLAME WAR. I BET I’M GOING TO BE FLAMED IN THE NEXT COMMENT BECAUSE I’M SO UNREASONABLE. LOLOLOLOLOL YAY

    • cReo
      cReo 9 September, 2009, 19:24

      ang haba naman ng sinulat mo….

      really…..

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 19:31

      Haha, sorry. Marami akong oras eh. Cancelled classes hanggang bukas hehehehehe XD

    • WHATEVER
      WHATEVER 2 March, 2015, 02:16

      WHAT THE HECK! PINOY! WOOOHOOO!!!

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:58

      We’ll have no bukakke in the latest LTD argument, kthx =D.

    • Bishojo1218
      Bishojo1218 15 July, 2010, 08:45

      ahaha. ou. ang haba ng sinilat niya.
      haha. makikisingit lng ako sa usapan niyo aa…

    • Treyu
      Treyu 5 October, 2009, 22:22

      Actually… I googled CloTi and I got pro-CloTi stuff everywhere. dA clubs, fanlistings, the works… I then googled Clerith and got the same, except for an ED page, which surprised me. I didn’t read it because well, I’m sure we all know what ED is like.

      I’m a Clerith shipper. I love the pairing and though I don’t mind CloTi shippers, I hate the ship mostly except for one song I think goes well with them. ANYWAY, not all Cleriths are all “omg Tifa sucks and should die in a fire”. I love Tifa! I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.

      The internet is so huge that you may have either missed some obscure CLoTi-shipping, Aerith hating site somewhere or you actually didn’t look. I didn’t find anything either, but I wouldn’t 100% deny that there was one, even if it’s some unpopular, outdated thing.

      Fack is awesome however. You are cool.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 5 October, 2009, 23:18

      “I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.”

      Tifa does not love Cloud like a son. And he does not love her like a mother.

      They are lovers, business partners and parents.

    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 21:46

      Of course this LT will never be solved. It’s not like there’s been any new creator commentary or creative work within those 12 years that gives any sort of position or narrative context that allows one to see Cloud’s true feelings. Yup, there’s no answer at all. Clearly it’s all a mystery.

      Btw, thank you for admitting to the fact you’d deny the truth even if the creators slapped you in the face with it. Stopped reading there. “Die for our ship!” fans are so amusing. It’s like common sense just goes out the window for some people.

    • fairheartstrife
      fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 22:05

      Aside from not knowing what “intitulated” means… I’d have to say your response is very rant-esque. There was no bashing in this essay–AT ALL. None. Zippo, zero, zilch, nadda. Soooo…I’m confused where that snide little remark comes in.

      Also, “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” ” Please, do. (In the proper forum of course)

      And last: “as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.” You bet your ass I’d stop “‘shipping” Cloti if they did that. It goes against the entire framework of compilation and characters…but I digress. Let’s say the magic EMO fairy makes Cloudy boy cut his life-strings and he does go float with Aerith I’d still respect the narrative, and consider that canon. Like it? No. But respect it and acknowledge it, yes. Acknowledging canon does NOT mean giving up your ship, it simply means accepting the compilation as creator intended. It’s not all that hard.

    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:37

      “repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue.”

      Proof plz

    • Tennyo
      Tennyo 10 September, 2009, 12:16

      1.) You’re right in that it probably won’t be resolved. XD
      2.) Nobody cares what ship you like best. NOBODY. Canon or not, just ship a ship and shut up about it, okay?
      3.) The vast majority of the FFVII fandom doesn’t even care about the LTD anyway, because in reality it is the least important aspect of the entire plot. FFVII is not a love story. It is not some cheesy romance novel or Twilight. So stop with the “half of us are clerith!” That doesn’t mean anything anyway. Shear numbers of believers don’t constitute proof.
      4.) Where in this article were Clerith shippers ever bashed? Where? Nowhere.

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 20:03

      All other points aside, you’re right on the fact that they’ll probably never create anything showing, for example, Cloud / Tifa getting married / getting it on directly, nor the same the other way around with Aerith (which would be a bit odd, considering she’s dead), nor him positively shunning either. Next to the base story of antagonist v.s. protagonist with superpowarz and loads of subplots, the LTD is quite possibly the main reason why FFVII is still discussed as much as it is. In fact, I can’t think of any other game that’s as old as FFVII that’s discussed about as much, or whose story is picked apart in such detail.

      And yeah, the creators / writers know that too. The quotes listed in the article don’t explicitly state ‘X is canon’, and I’m sure that if you’d have a video of the listed interviews, you’d see the people being interviews picking their wording very precisely, as to not bluntly say ‘X is canon’. ‘Cause that’d be dumb.

      However, it can’t be denied that at the current ‘time’ of the Compilation, Cloud is much closer to Tifa than with Aerith. Besides, people tend to quit being romantically interested in people years after they’re dead. Love, oh sure, but love in the old friend / family sense of the word.

    • kitty
      kitty 14 May, 2020, 08:34

      Bravo!

  17. ss
    #17 ss 9 September, 2009, 17:52

    I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral. First, it doesn’t matter how many editorial ‘pieces’ you’ve made on the Final Fantasy game series, it doesn’t a) make anything you say official or b) make it anything more than just your opinions which have already been biased by your clear preference for one girl over an other.

    I mean if we’re going to be posting this guy’s opnion on the love triangle, let’s ask a thoughtful, well-written CloudxAerith shipper about her thoughts, or a thoughtful, well-written CloudxZack shipper (like me) about HER thoughts and they’ll probably be able to give equally thoughtful and well-written essays explaining why they’re OPINIONS are somehow canon.

    Only they probably wouldn’t have the name or the mighty creditials (ie: wrote essay about Ultmecia…wooo) to make their biased fan opinion seem official.

    Look in the end you’re just a guy with your own opinions. You wrote a nice article, but no one should take it as having any more proof about the original intentions of the series than ANY well-written article written by ANY other blatant shipper about ANY other pairing in existence.

    Unless you’re secretly one of the original creators, I don’t give a shit about what you say. Sorry. But I’m sure other Clotis really appreciated you validating their opinions (just like, had I written a CloudxZack essay, Clackers would be kissing MY ass).

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 18:06

      DO THE ESSAY. DO IT.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD 9 September, 2009, 20:55

      Thanks for your response, SS.

      I believe what you overlooked in this article, however, is that I didn’t present my opinion as the definitive answer. Instead, I presented the words of the individual who wrote most of the FFVII titles — including the original — as that definitive answer.

      Given that you say you would concern yourself with what the original creators say, I must, then, ask why you don’t address them in your reply. You address only me.

      I’m more or less just compiling the various things they have said on the matter into one place.

      Any article you read featuring the words of those designers will probably be presented to you by someone else. Does that dilute the relevance of what they’ve said?

      As for my preference of Tifa biasing my views of the matter, that’s not an unreasonable concern. However, as you may know, in any public address, it’s necessary to state one’s personal views upfront. Otherwise, it becomes a question of honesty.

      Would you prefer one who has made up their mind keep that a secret while speaking to you behind a veil of complete objectivity, or would you prefer that they tell you their views and then explain why they hold them?

      You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.

      This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis. They must attempt to distance themselves as much as possible while drawing their conclusions, however.

      You are free to disagree, but I believe my three-and-a-half-year absence from this fandom has given me a degree of distance. I will tell you outright that I could not have objectively discussed this matter in 2005.

      I believe I’ve done a reasonable job of it at this point, however. I started with the developers’ comments as both foundation and framework, analyzing the various materials through that lens and in light of one another.

      While I would agree with you or Lily that there are a multitude of counterarguments to be made, I also feel — from my, yes, potentially flawed perspective — that they only work when made in isolation. Not when examining the context of all materials present, with each individual component part of a whole, and without value when examined as not part of the whole.

      It’s reasonable enough to see Cloud’s line about meeting Aerith at the end of FFVII as a sign of yearning when examined in isolation. Looking back on it today, the original game alone presented as strong an argument for Aerith as for Tifa — and arguably a stronger one.

      Likewise, it’s easy to see how Cloud leaving the family situation he had with Tifa as a sign that he was unhappy being around her — but only if you stop there. If you don’t look at AC/ACC or the various comments on the matter from the developers, you wouldn’t know he left because he was happy there but felt unworthy of it.

      I’m not, however, examining this matter in light of the original game alone or “On the Way to a Smile” alone. If all are to be treated as part of a larger body of work, then all must be examined in the context of one another.

      I hope you see where I’m coming from better now. You are, of course, still free to disagree.

    • Reina
      Reina 13 September, 2009, 10:38

      I agree with everthing you said here but I especially would like to point out one section:

      “You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.”

      This is such an overlooked and important aspect of debates

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 22:33

      Typically, a number of the people you see arguing ‘for’ C/T aren’t shipping it. They are simply seeing the common sense answer by taking all the available evidence and attempting to parse it in a rational manner. They are without emotional preference in the matter, and aside from the people who claim it has no answer or have no opinion, that is as close as it’s going to get.

    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:36

      It’s his opinion that Nojima and Nomura have said that Cloud and Tifa are a couple?…

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 10 September, 2009, 04:12

      SoS is so powerful than he can make Nomura and Nojima tell everyone his completely baseless, biased, Cloti opinion?

      Wow, he’s getting cooler by the minute…

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 20:11

      “I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral.”

      If you’d give someone neutral FFVII and let him play it, halfway he’d go ‘Cloud obviously lieks Aerith, lol’, and quite likely stick by it. But if you want someone neutral to give his / her own, neutral opinion, you’d have to give him / her all the available materials, make him/her play all the games, read everything.

      In the end, that person, as indicated earlier, would no longer be neutral, and be quite likely as confused as everyone else. Cleriths and Clotis are both groups that played the games, read the comments, the interviews, and everything, and which have both interpreted the story in their own way – Tifa-focussed, or Aerith-focussed. There’s nothing a ‘neutral’ party can say about that.

      In the end, it’s personal preference. Facts are abundant, but remain vague and sometimes open to interpretation, and are always given a certain ‘strength’ based on the reader and the source of that fact. The amount of strength given to a creator saying ‘yeh cloti is cannon’ would be low in the eyes of a Clerith shipper, and vice-versa.

      So yeah.

    • Winterine
      Winterine 6 August, 2010, 05:59

      I agree, do the essay!
      I’m too busy to even contemplate doing it myself 😀

  18. fairheartstrife
    #18 fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 18:57

    First off Squall_of_Seed’s LTD essay isn’t “Pro-Cloti” ‘Shipping opinion. It follows the narrative of compilation, and comes up with a conclusion BASED on that; not opinion. The counter argument of “This won’t change anything” is stupid. It’s not meant to CHANGE anything. Compilation is what it is, and in it there IS a definitive answer. THIS just points it out with big neon signs for those too ‘ship-blind to see it. **sigh**

    It’s also NOT and OP-ED piece. It’s compilation, creator statement, and fact. People seriously need to learn what an opinionated essay is versus what a factual reconstruction of a narrative is.

    No one is kissing any ass (jealous much?), but there are plenty of thanks for the time taken to compile the FACTS into this essay form.

    You all can put your lighters back in your pockets. For real.

    Reply to this comment
  19. Vendel
    #19 Vendel 9 September, 2009, 22:58

    It’s strange. This makes complete logical sense.

    Almost as if it was intended that way by the creators.

    Reply to this comment
    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:35

      Stop that blasphemy this instant >:(

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 10 September, 2009, 04:19

      Vendel, FFVII is just a game with a storyline that was only intended to be interpreted point for point. Nothing was intended by the creators. Everything was intended by the fans. It’s obviously more logical this way.

      I agree with Quexi. Stop this nonsense! >:(

      Stop the trolling! /lookwho’stalking

    • rabbitbooboo
      rabbitbooboo 31 May, 2010, 20:31

      I agree with Quexi and I Am Not Me. Vendel is the one who constantly make nonsense comments but flaming people being nonsense.

  20. OWD
    #20 OWD 10 September, 2009, 02:35

    Yes, the Clerii have come up with a multitude of so-called counter arguments.

    Remember the made up Japanese people dining at WacDonalds making up shit like koi___bito being two words and not meaning what it does (unless it’s used in reference to Aeris)É
    The rest fo them follow in a similar fashion.

    Reply to this comment
    • Lolwut
      Lolwut 9 January, 2010, 20:29

      OWD, You strike me as someone who would write articles for Destiny Failed. CloTis make up shit all the time, so don’t go and make all Cleriths look like lying wackjobs with no valid arguments.

<