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The Love Triangle of FFVII – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD

by September 25, 2009 0 comments

Next, let’s look at On the Way to a Smile: Case of Barret. Here, the very second line of the story says that Barret helped Cloud and Tifa build their home. One they would be sharing together.

Later, when Barret talks with Cid, the pilot asks, “So Cloud’s with Tifa?” — and Barret’s response is “yeah.” While one could interpret this to mean Cloud’s with Tifa in the sense that he’s just occupying the same living space, the context established by the rest of the discussion would suggest otherwise.

Barret says Tifa is whipping Cloud into shape and Cid says, “In the end, it’s the women wear the pants.” I imagine most people reading this are familiar with the idiom of “wearing the pants in the family.

Cid — who wasn’t even around Cloud and Tifa for long after FFVII’s events — was speaking of them in the context of romantic partners. Why might he do that? And why might he have suspected they were now living together in the first place?

cid-teases

Because he was one of the members of AVALANCHE who witnessed/overheard Cloud and Tifa sharing their moment under the Highwind, and then playfully teased them about it the next morning. Certainly something gave him an indication that they might have been moving toward a romantic relationship.

Another line that points to the same thing comes from Cloud himself in the revised version of Case of Tifa, where he apologizes to Tifa for “doing things without consulting” after he tells her he’s begun a delivery service — certainly not something he should have felt the need for if they weren’t in a relationship as described above. Roommates don’t have a need to apologize for how they spend their free time if they don’t first gain permission.

Another line that points to the same thing comes from Cloud himself in the revised version of Case of Tifa, where he apologizes to Tifa for “doing things without consulting” after he tells her he’s begun a delivery service — certainly not something he should have felt the need for if they weren’t in a relationship as described above.

Speaking of Cloud and Tifa in the context of a family setting, various official materials — as well as Barret and Marlene in Case of Tifa, and Cloud himself in Advent Children/Advent Children Complete — refer to them as being in one. Whether it be On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa saying that Cloud looked like a young father with his children when hanging out with Denzel and Marlene, Tifa’s profile — written by Advent Children’s creators — in the April 2009 Dengeki PlayStation 3 (issue #445) that identified Tifa as serving the role of the children’s mother, or Cloud’s profile from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 38) that says he, Tifa and the children live together like a family.

As well, that book’s profile for Tifa says this: “The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.” This structure alone implies more than simply sharing quarters.

There’s also a comment from Kazushige Nojima on pg. 70 of the Reunion Files where he says this about conceptualizing the story of Advent Children:

“Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.
Everybody would be back home where they belonged.”

Now, I suppose one can argue — as with Cid’s comment from OtWtaS: Case of Barret — that this is just another way of saying that they’re living in the same house. Given the wider context of the Compilation that we’ve been examining, though, I don’t believe this fits.

Especially if we look at another comment from Nojima in the Reunion Files, this time on pg. 20. There, we find Nojima say, “Although there’s a lot to Tifa’s character, she’s actually very much like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man.” There is no other connotation for a “woman who’s been left behind by a man” than one who was left behind by her romantic partner.

Before we move away from the subject of sharing quarters, a late-night
conversation between Cloud and Tifa in OtWtaS: CoT would suggest they were sleeping in the same room, if not the same bed. Tifa asks Cloud some questions after waiting for him to fall asleep one night, waking him up.

That same profile for Cloud also identifies Tifa as an important woman to him and part of his family. Not really the kind of description you’d expect for a platonic friend who he happened to share quarters with.

Speaking of sharing quarters, a late-night conversation between Cloud and Tifa in OtWtaS: CoT would suggest they were sleeping in the same room, if not the same bed. Tifa asks Cloud some questions after waiting for him to fall asleep one night, waking him up.

While the first of these questions — “Do you love me?” — has been argued to indicate that Tifa is unaware of what Cloud’s feelings for her are, and, thus demonstrate that they aren’t in a romantic relationship, given that the premise here is that they are in a *troubled* romantic relationship it makes complete sense for Tifa to be asking this.

Things were not going particularly well between them at the time and Tifa was worried about whether they were going to work things out. This is what people do in relationships during times like that. You begin to wonder if the other person still loves you and so you eventually ask.

In any case, while Cloud has a perplexed look on his face when he awakens, it’s left unclear whether this is due to her presence or the waking. That said, given that he shuts his eyes after replying only three times and goes back to sleep without waiting for her to leave or making sure he’s answered all her questions, one is left without a suggestion that her presence while he sleeps is out of the ordinary.

Furthermore, were he to simply go back to sleep like that without making sure he’d answered questions that were clearly bothering her, he’d be conducting himself as something of a jerk. I think even the most firm Clerith supporters would agree that Cloud cares more about Tifa’s feelings than to dismiss her so coldly.

The fact that she was waiting for him to fall asleep and knew when he had is also quite telling, as is the utter lack of description regarding movement into the room or toward Cloud in this scene.

That said, it has been suggested that the bed visible in Cloud’s office in Advent Children identifies the room as his bedroom when considered along with a line from Case of Tifa. In the official translation included with the North American Limited Edition release of Advent Children, Tifa tells Cloud at one point, “Then drink in your room.”

Though the original Japanese line is absent a possessive reference for the room — she literally just says, “Drink in room” — contextually, it makes sense to identify it as Cloud’s. That said, another line in the story shortly before that — and set on the same day — refers to the room simply as “the room Cloud used as an office” — not “Cloud’s room” or “the room Cloud slept in.” This, despite the story referring to Marlene and Denzel’s room as “the children’s room.”

As well, the last paragraph of the story refers to the room once again as “Cloud’s office,” not his room.

What’s more, the room is absent the barest of amenities beyond the bed and office desk. The spare tires laying to one side give even less an impression that this is a room lived in rather than worked in. Minimalist as Cloud may or may not be, to have not acquired so much as a dresser or nightstand in two years seems unlikely, even for him.

By comparison, the children’s bedroom is lavishly furnished — though it really just looks like an ordinary room by any other measure — including
beds that actually look comfortable.

That Cloud would take the time and have the thorough compulsion to customize a motorcycle, adorn himself with a wolf-themed outfit, cell phone and jewelry — which themselves are tied to the motorcycle because of its name, Fenrir – and to decorate his desk, but not the time to provide his bedroom with a simple piece of furniture for storing anything he would need on a day-to-day basis is a little ridiculous and out of place.

For that matter, given his customized clothing and bike — the latter of which he was willing to exchange a lifetime of free drinks and meals at Seventh Heaven for — as well as the sophisticated gadgetry implemented in his bike and Fusion Sword, Cloud hardly gives the impression of being an ascetic. He clearly appreciates the finer things in life.

Given the strange hours Cloud worked because of his job, it makes a lot more sense that the office he used for work just had an extra bed for crashing in without waking up anyone else. After all, since Barret had stayed there for a while, it’s not that strange for an extra bed to be around, and there likely aren’t more than three bedrooms anyway since Denzel doesn’t have one of his own.

Counterarguments to the ideas discussed above include the observation that Case of Tifa says Marlene slept with Tifa up until at least the night that Barret left — the implication being that if Cloud and Tifa had just officially entered a romantic relationship, they should probably be sleeping together. Not an unreasonable assumption, though not a deal breaker either.

They had just built a new home out of the ruins of Midgar at that time, and only been sleeping in the new place for a week by the time Barret left. Furthermore, this statement is only known to apply as far as that first week — a period in which it would have made sense for someone to sleep with a child so young to help her adjust to all that had changed in her life and become comfortable with her new surroundings.

The next time reference is made to Marlene’s sleeping arrangements, she has her own bed in the room with Denzel.

When Marlene made this transition is left unidentified. As such, it can’t be said that she went back to sleeping with Tifa right after Barret left any more than it can be said that she never slept with her again.

This particular matter is more or less rendered moot by the knowledge that Marlene is no longer sleeping with Tifa later in the story. We must look elsewhere for refutations.

Another counterargument often cited in relation to Case of Tifa is that Tifa herself had the following thoughts during the story:

“They needed friends to live without being crushed by the guilt. Even if they all bore the same scars, shouldered the same sins, they never would have made it without comforting and encouraging each another.

‘All right, then. Maybe it is safe to say we’re a family. We just have to work together as one. Together with friends to call family, there’s no storm we can’t weather,’ Tifa thought.”

This passage is often cited as evidence that Tifa saw her living arrangement with Cloud as simply friends cohabiting — and, indeed, that she just saw family as a circle of friends who support one another.

I would argue that this passage refers not to the arrangement she had with Cloud and Marlene — Denzel was not yet in the picture — but, rather, to the “extended family” that included the rest of AVALANCHE.

Cloud is one individual, so he wouldn’t fit the plurality indicated by
“friends.” Also, Marlene wouldn’t be included in the group who “all bore the same scars, shouldered the same sins,” so she’s not able to provide a plurality that would turn the residents of Seventh Heaven into into a circle of friends with sins on their backs.

What characters close to Tifa then do fit that description? Who feels guilty of sins other than Cloud and Tifa? Barret, of course, and for the same reasons as Tifa — the deaths caused by their terrorist activities in opposition to the Shin-Ra Company. Who else?

Cid likely would for his treatment of Shiera. Vincent absolutely does given his belief that he failed Lucrecia and Sephiroth. Reeve, as well, had felt a need to redeem himself for standing by while Shin-Ra carried out its assortment of immoral activities.

Possibly even Red XIII would feel some measure of guilt for not honoring his father’s memory most of his life.

Marlene, though? There’s nothing that she should feel guilty over, nor is she ever indicated to have.

Another point brought up to suggest that Tifa didn’t see the family with
Cloud as legitimate is how often she tries to convince herself throughout CoT that they are just a normal family. The Clerith perspective would argue that the does this because she knows that their family situation isn’t normal — one with two parents in a romantic relationship raising children.

In fact, it’s often argued that Tifa’s relationship with Cloud is more akin to that of a mother and son. When he feels guilty about running deliveries without Tifa’s knowledge and spending money on enhancing his bike without discussing this with her as well, then reveals it, she thinks to herself, “He’s like a child.”

At the prospect that the world Cloud knew was expanding, Tifa next thought to herself, “Yes… Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like.” As well, it’s stated that she was happy with “the new emotions growing inside her.”

The Clerith perspective feels that this indicates that Tifa’s romantic
interest in Cloud had begun to disappear at this point, being replaced instead by a motherly affection. As well, the perspective is that Tifa accepted she and Cloud weren’t meant to be together in any other way.

This view is bolstered by a quote from Tetsuya Nomura in the Reunion Files (pg. 18), where he said, “Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a ‘big kid’ himself in some respects.”

Next, the Clerith perspective would point out that it is only after Cloud has brought Denzel into the family that he begins spending more time at home, the implication being that he only spends more time there because his bond with Denzel is due in large part to his belief that Aerith led Denzel to him — thus making Denzel a connection between Cloud and Aerith in his mind.

Perhaps most significantly, the Clerith perspective holds that the family’s structure no more favors Cloud as a figurehead — a father role to Tifa’smother role — than it favors Barret. In fact, the perspective holds that Barret is better described as serving the family’s fatherly role since he is the one who originally put the family together in founding AVALANCHE.

From this point of view, Cloud is more of a son to the family — a brother to Marlene and Denzel. This structure is said to be suggested further by Marlene saying “I’ll put Cloud in our family too” in the revised version of Case of Tifa, presumably while drawing one of the pictures that adorn the wall of the children’s bedroom — Marlene’s words considered an “invitation” of sorts to Cloud to join a family that already existed and which he played no part in forming.

All this then culminates in Tifa’s discussion with Cloud in AC/ACC, in which she says, “I guess that only works for real families” — the idea being that Tifa once again acknowledges that they aren’t a normal family with two parents in a romantic relationship raising kids.

While this does make for a cohesive, relatively consistent analysis, it also requires dismissing each of the pro-Cloti factors we’ve already looked at in isolation rather than together — Cloud and Tifa sharing an intimate moment before the final battle of the original game; Cloud’s declared desire following the battle to have Tifa with him in a “different” way than he’d always had her with him before; the house being described as theirs; Cid’s question about Cloud and Tifa being together followed by a joke that the women in relationships wear the pants; Nojima’s own statement that he knew when conceptualizing AC that Cloud and Tifa would “be together” and everyone “home where they belonged”; the references to Cloud and Tifa living together with children as a family that they themselves were forming.

It’s a long list even without the Nojima Statement.

Before taking such a perspective, it would benefit us to look at the Japanese version of Nomura’s quote from the Reunion Files about Tifa’s motherly behavior. Of significance, only the English translation used the term “maternal bond” — Nomura’s actual statement was merely that Tifa “also looks after Cloud” (“Cloud no mendou mo miteiru”) in addition to Marlene and Denzel.

This can be said of many women where their romantic partners are concerned. A maternal bond isn’t necessary.

Even had Nomura’s actual statement included the term, however, it should go without saying that such qualities are not uncommon to find in women, nor is the presence of a “certain maternal bond” between a woman and the man she has romantic feelings for. That really falls to individual variance — how naturally doting and mother-like a woman is.

Some are more so. Some are less so. Tifa’s more so. That doesn’t mean she sees Cloud as a son to her.

As far as the notion goes that Tifa decides during Case of Tifa that she’s more of a mother to Cloud than anything else, that isn’t supported by a later passage where Tifa observes Cloud, Marlene and Denzel seated at a table in Seventh Heaven. There, the comment is made — obviously incorporating Tifa’s perspective — that “you might have said Cloud, Marlene and Denzel resembled a slightly young father and his kids.”

As well, she clearly she has not accepted a role as Cloud’s mother in AC/ACC if she’s still making references to the idea of a real or normal family. She still sees him as something other than a son to her — especially if Nojima’s comment that she’s “like any other woman who’s been left behind by a man” is to apply.

While on the subject, that could very well be why Tifa prods Cloud with the question of whether they’re a real family in AC/ACC — he had left them. To begin with, Marlene and Denzel weren’t their biological children. For Cloud, then, to leave and die alone rather than looking for and providing support at home only does more to sever the bonds that would make them a legitimate family.

For that matter, Aerith doesn’t go without an analogy as Cloud’s mother herself — and this from Cloud. When he feels her presence as he’s dying near the end of the film, he says “Mother?” aloud, prompting Aerith to say he’s too big to adopt.

If Cloud sees Tifa as a mother figure to him, what then is one to take from this?

Both Tifa and Aerith have motherly qualities to them, as Nomura said in the Reunion Files (pg. 18), and both are motherly toward Cloud in their own way. Again, these qualities are not uncommon in women.

To the idea that Cloud had to be invited into Marlene’s family by her and that he himself played no role in forming it, I say this: The FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania outright said that Cloud and Tifa were “forming” the family.

Furthermore, while Barret’s FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile says that he rushes to Edge to aid his family (pg. 54), Barret himself is never included in any itemized description of Cloud’s family — not Cloud’s profile in the same book where the family is said to consist of he, Tifa and the children (pg. 38), nor in a later passage where Barret is outright differentiated from Cloud’s family and would fall instead into the category of “his friends” (pg. 131): “When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting.”

Tifa, Marlene and Denzel, however, are identified as his family here.

While the family of Seventh Heaven had certainly been originally created by Barret, it had been completely restructured in the time since Biggs, Jessie and Wedge died, as well as by Barret’s own departure after the new Seventh Heaven was built. Barret was still part of the family, of course, but had become more a part of the “extended family” discussed earlier in this article.

There was nothing formal about Marlene’s “innocent offer,” as it’s described, to include Cloud in the family. She was simply a child recognizing that the structure around her had changed — along with the structure of the family itself — and that Cloud was now part of her family.

That brings us to the matter of Denzel and Cloud’s bond with him motivating him to spend more time at home. While I would not be the one to suggest that Cloud’s belief Aerith brought the boy to him didn’t impact the bond Cloud felt with him, I would also point out that when he and Tifa discussed that idea, Tifa posited that Denzel had been brought to them both. To this suggestion, Cloud smiled.

Though it’s feasible that Cloud could have simply smiled to placate Tifa’s feelings, even while he felt she was shoehorning herself into a matter that didn’t concern her, given that he’d just admitted thinking he was wrong about the kid being brought to him, only for Tifa to clarify that Denzel was brought to the both of them, it’s more likely a genuine a smile.

In any case, it’s more relevant to examine why Cloud believed Aerith brought the child to him in the first place.

Tifa’s own reasons for thinking this may shed some insight into Cloud’s. Her thoughts on the matter in Case of Tifa are as follows:

“Denzel was supposed to come here. He was a victim when Sector Seven was destroyed–and we’re the reason it’s gone. So we need to take responsibility and raise this boy right.”

Cloud, for his own part, feels the weight of sins he blames himself for —
most notably, Aerith and Zack’s deaths. Aerith’s in particular, given that he might have been able to save her had he done a number of things differently in that situation.

While there was nothing he could have done for Zack, Cloud would be left wondering whether he might have helped Aerith had he broke Sephiroth’s control a second sooner, not been so susceptible to it in the first place — or had he done anything when Sephiroth descended from the sky to kill her.

Cloud felt a great guilt for Aerith’s death, and it stands to reason he — like Tifa — would have seen raising the boy as penance for his sins. He even says toward the end of Case of Tifa, “I don’t think I’ll ever fix [my] problem. I can’t make somebody unlose their life. But now, maybe I got a chance to save a life that’s on the brink. Maybe that’s something even I can do.”

Tifa asks if he means Denzel, and Cloud says, “Yeah.” The connection that the boy had to Aerith for him is made obvious by these lines.

In any case, none of the points we’ve gone over from the Clerith perspective would do anything to suggest a pro-Clerith development so much as an anti-Cloti one. Though the counteraguments of the Clerith perspective fail to put the scoreboard back at square one, even if they did, that wouldn’t move the scale in a pro-Clerith direction. Positive one and negative one equal zero.

Though detractors of the couple’s status as canon have suggested over the last few years that Cloud was unhappy with this arrangement and that it was why he left, all official comments on the matter have indicated that Cloud was happy with his family, and, indeed, that this happiness was why he left.

His 10th Anniversary Ultimania profile (pg. 38) says that the more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more anxious he becomes at the fear of losing them. Furthermore, his Dengeki PS3 profile says that he left initially because he wanted to find a cure for geostigma for Denzel, but later withdrew from them entirely because he believed he was useless to those he cared about.

cloud-and-marlene

His comments to Tifa and Marlene in AC/ACC corroborate this, and his profile in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania outright states that his guilt about not being able to protect people he cares about are what drove him to leave (pg. 38).

Aerith’s death, in fact, is identified in her profile from
the same book (pg. 50) as “a major factor in causing him to close himself off.”

As for Aerith herself, she is said there to “live on in the hearts of her
friends who saved the planet,” and “in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to … protect those dear to him.”

In any event, once Cloud began to believe in himself again and was freed from his guilt over the deaths of Aerith and Zack, he returned to his family.

The matter of Cloud’s guilt may warrant further analysis, as, in all cases
where he speaks of Aerith post-FFVII, it’s in the context of guilt. Cloud
believed that he sinned in failing to save her. It’s guilt, rather than
romantic yearning he feels.

In any event, once Cloud began to believe in himself again and was freed from his guilt over the deaths of Aerith and Zack, he returned to his family.

The matter of Cloud’s guilt also bears some analysis. In all cases where he speaks of Aerith post-FFVII, it’s in the context of guilt. Believing that he has sinned in failing to save her. Hardly romantic.

Furthermore, whenever this feeling comes up about Aerith, it’s always applicable to Zack as well. Whether it be the wolf symbol that represents his guilt appearing in places relevant to both of them, or his flashbacks to the moments before both their deaths when Denzel and Tifa are nearly killed in Advent Children Complete, Zack and Aerith are almost always placed together in Cloud’s thoughts.

Even in Dissidia: Final Fantasy when he mentions “something that happened before” while talking to Terra about his doubts over being able to save anyone, this applies to both of those he was unable to save in his past.

One of two exceptions to this parallel applicability in Dissidia is the field of flowers that appears in the game’s ending. Cloud decides during Dissidia to share Firion’s dream of a world filled with flowers, and when he returns to his world, it’s in a flower field similar to the one seen at the end of Advent Children.

Certainly a reference to Aerith, as was an earlier comment following his final battle of the game with Sephiroth. There, Cloud said, “The one I really want to meet is …” and trailed off.

Given Cloud’s desire to see Aerith again and get her forgiveness, however, neither this line nor the field of flowers are necessarily romantic.

If anything, Cloud’s dream of a field of flowers is the symbol of his redemption for the sins he believed he’d committed. It is ultimately in such a field that he meets Aerith in Advent Children, and while there, he says only that he wants her forgiveness. There are no words of longing. Just a desire to for forgiveness.

While on the subject of Dissidia, the materia Cloud receives as his crystal during the game is often thought to be a representation of Aerith’s White Materia. Though the size is wrong, as the White Materia was much smaller than this baseball-sized crystal, Dissidia’s representation of the Black Materia has increased its size:

In addition, the representation of the crystal of creation that Zidane
receives as his crystal is much smaller than the real thing. That being the case, there is a precedent that would allow the crystal to be a different size than the White Materia while still representing it.

As well, though the White Materia glowed in a different fashion in the
original game when Holy had been cast — a white spiral emanating from its center as opposed to a solid white glow — it’s plausible that a new rendering of the materia so many years later might portray this differently:

cloudscrystal

That said, the Dissidia: Final Fantasy Ultimania does not identify the materia as a reference to Aerith or to the White Materia in Final Fantasy VII’s “Link to the Original” section of the guide (pg. 530) — even while it identifies the feather Squall catches in the ending as a reference to Rinoa (pg. 580).

The Ultimania also goes so far as to point out many references that would be significantly less relevant than would be one to Aerith or the White Materia.

For example, the guide draws attention to a reference for Final Fantasy II in which the Shiva AUTO summon uses lines similar to that game’s Lamia Queen boss, making Firion — who is shy and inexperienced with women – feel nervous (pg. 196).

That’s not nearly as relevant to Dissidia’s story as Cloud’s crystal, nor is it as relevant to FFII as Aerith and the White Materia are to FFVII. While on that topic, the Buster Sword — of comparable significance to the White Materia, and a memento of Zack — is identified in the Ultimania, as is its relation to Zack.

Given the Ultimania references and the unquestioned identification of the Black Materia by the game itself, why would Aerith’s memento receive no mention at all if it indeed were present? Why would Aerith’s memento receive no mention at all if indeed it were present?

What Cloud receives in Dissidia is most easily concluded to be a representation of an ordinary green materia, a generic crystal from and
representative of his world. All his companions in Dissidia likewise receive a crystal that does more to represent the game they’re from than to represent the character theirself or a connection they may have to another character from their game.

There’s a sphere for Tidus that looks like many spheres seen in his game, including Jyscal Guado’s sphere, Yuna’s sphere, the Jecht spheres and any of the spheres laying on the floor of Rin’s travel agencies. However, it is never implied to be a representation of any one of these specifically.

For Terra, there’s a magicite whose identity is never suggested. Though it could be a representation of the magicite of her father, Maduin, this is not implied by the game.

The rest of the characters in Dissidia receive equally generic crystals, each even more unlikely to be associated with a specific character from their original game.

Moving away from Dissidia and back to Advent Children, in The Distance: The Making of Final Fantasy VII documentary included with the film, Nomura makes some comments that are often thought to lend themselves strongly to a Clerith conclusion:

“The words ‘memetic legacy’ are used a lot in the film, but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories, we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they’re dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud… He sees Aerith several times throughout the film. It’s not that he sees her because he senses her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him.”

Nomura, however, made this as a general comment made about everyone and used Cloud and Aerith as an example — it was not something said to be specific to Cloud and Aerith. Only seconds later, Nojima speaks of recently having a child and how this means his bloodline continues, even as his grandmother died around
he same time. He says that everyone is part of a bigger flow.

Just as significant, the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania makes it clear that Cloud isn’t the only one within whom Aerith lives on in such a way :

“Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off.”

Indeed, in Advent Children, Marlene and Tifa are both shown to have a
connection with Aerith as well. It also bears pointing out that the only way in which Aerith lives on specifically for Cloud is as a symbol of his
inability to protect those he cares about.

And, ultimately, like everything else that applies to Aerith in the movie,
this idea that Aerith lives on inside Cloud applies to Zack as well. He also appears to Cloud, and on more than one occasion. During one of those appearances, Zack even reminds Cloud that he is his “living legacy.”

Zack lives on inside Cloud every bit as much as Aerith.

Despite the information discussed thus far, perhaps the biggest indication for many fans that Cloud harbored feelings of romantic love for Aerith comes from On the Way to a Smile: Case of the Lifestream White’s reference to him as Aerith’s “koibito” — a Japanese word usually meaning “lover,” “boyfriend” or “girlfriend” depending on the situation. There are a couple of matters overlooked in this, however.

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No comments yet

  1. Quexinos
    #1 Quexinos 8 September, 2009, 23:50

    Thank you very much for this ^_^

    Reply to this comment
  2. fairheartstrife
    #2 fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 00:07

    This was an awesome read. You make many well thought out, concise and clear points throughout. Thank you for taking the time to do these FAQs.

    Reply to this comment
  3. Stratus
    #3 Stratus 9 September, 2009, 00:41

    Bravo… lovely read, i agree with you and this was very well thought out and there were no bias comments on the matter… ^.^ finally things can be wat they were always meant to b Zack + Aerith and Cloud + Tifa ….. lol thank you

    Reply to this comment
  4. Splintered
    #4 Splintered 9 September, 2009, 00:47

    In before flamewar…

    I mean, awesome analysis.<3

    Reply to this comment
  5. Raquelborn
    #5 Raquelborn 9 September, 2009, 00:49

    It’s basically a summary of the LTD threads lol.

    Reply to this comment
  6. DaySekay
    #6 DaySekay 9 September, 2009, 01:09

    You are correct, I honestly don’t think there is any more subjects to pick, Cloud wanted forgiveness and Aerith/Zack where the only ones capable of giving it.
    I also think that after his “release from the guilt” life with Tifa is just a matter of time.

    Reply to this comment
  7. Death Sin
    #7 Death Sin 9 September, 2009, 01:10

    It’s always good to see a throughful yet still hard pressed factual analysis. I do think you focus all the “core” points of the LTD and do it in a simple yet objective way (backing it up with evidence from the series but, most importantly, from the comments and views of the Compilation creators/developers as well. The evidence has always been there for everyone to see… The latest Compilation titles have only made it all more clear. I sincerely believe the LTD has an answer and that is that Cloud and Tifa are meant to be (the same way Zack and Aerith are together in the afterlife).So what can I say more…? Not much, except “well done”.

    Reply to this comment
  8. Ryushikaze
    #8 Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 01:56

    I’ve made my other comments in the PM, but good job, man. Concise summation of all the common sense arguments that’ve been floating around for ages.

    Reply to this comment
  9. ZackFair1219
    #9 ZackFair1219 9 September, 2009, 03:12

    Wow, I always belived myself to be a Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith person, but I personally always hated Aerith because she started hitting on Cloud in the first place. I was pretty much on that thought the whole time until the last line about Zack’s Buster Sword and Aerith’s flowers of how Cloud knows that the two belong together as he and Tifa do. I do believe that my hatred for Aerith is now null and void.

    And still, well done to Squall_of_SeeD. I’ve read all the articles of summerizations he has put to the compilation and he never ceases to amaze me. Well done as usual.

    (Not to mention this one actually ended up making me go teary-eyed. :3)

    Reply to this comment
  10. ChocoboChick
    #10 ChocoboChick 9 September, 2009, 04:48

    You are my new hero, Squall_of_SeeD!

    Reply to this comment
  11. ForceStealer
    #11 ForceStealer 9 September, 2009, 07:57

    Very very well done. But this still won’t end the debate unfortunately.

    The only thing in all of that I didn’t inherently agree with was a pretty minor point anyway – Cloud’s crystal in Dissidia. I always figured it was the Holy materia, but I didn’t take it as really having anything to do with Aerith, just as it is FF7’s most notable “crystal.” Indeed, I didn’t even pick up on the fact that Cloud was referring to Aerith by the “one he wanted to meet.”
    True, many of the crystals are ‘generic’ symbols of their respective game, a lot of them are specific.
    The oddly named “White Materia” always appeared green and the size isn’t relevent as Zidane’s crystal should be 5x his size.

    But, as I said, minor point, and not one that I even consider to relate to the LTD.

    Reply to this comment
    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 08:07

      But again, if it were the Holy materia, why would it not be mentioned as a relevant personal connection to FFVII? If a feather belonging to Rinoa is worth a mention in Dissidia’s Ultimania, along with a reference to Zack in regards to his statement about the Buster Sword…why would the Crystal being the White Materia just be inexplicably forgotten? It’s not the same size or color, which would be necessary to equate it as such.

    • ForceStealer
      ForceStealer 9 September, 2009, 19:50

      Oh I know, if the Ultimania doesn’t mention it than it isn’t. I was just saying that I thought it was Holy but only for the reference to the Planet, not her.

  12. Squall_of_SeeD
    #12 Squall_of_SeeD 9 September, 2009, 09:12

    Thanks for your responses, everyone. I appreciate your kindness.

    @ForceStealer: I’d agree that the size of the materia wouldn’t be relevant if it seemed that Zidane’s crystal was supposed to be the actual crystal of creation. I think it was just a representation of it, though, for the very reasons I don’t think Cloud’s crystal is the White Materia — the size and the color.

    Nonetheless, thanks for your feedback.

    Reply to this comment
  13. Quexinos
    #13 Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 09:34

    I just read this again and I have to say again, this is really awesome XD
    I posted it on a couple sites and showed a couple friends too ^_^

    Reply to this comment
  14. thuthuy62
    #14 thuthuy62 9 September, 2009, 09:52

    Cloti loves this!
    Clerith doenst.
    Squall_of_seed’s just a Cloti!
    Nothing’s new.

    Reply to this comment
    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 09:54

      :kermit:

    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 10:08

      What an insightful and valid criticism. Did you read the article or what? Cause if that’s all you have to say, it doesn’t really seem like you did.

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 13:01

      HAHAHA.

      M’kay.

      And you’re a Clerith.

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 22:26

      … the saddest part? The only part worth mentioning here is the blatant mispelling of ‘doesn’t

      That and to note that I did indeed call that SoS would be labeled ‘just a Cloti’ when this hit.

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:53

      Nothing’s new indeed, :monster:.

    • Bisojo1218
      Bisojo1218 30 May, 2010, 05:42

      Bleah! is that all you have to say?!

    • kitty
      kitty 14 May, 2020, 08:29

      Yup

  15. Rin
    #15 Rin 9 September, 2009, 09:53

    I agree with my Friend Quexinos
    Finally, someone does an intelligent, well thought-out article on the subject…
    Too Bad it won’t Sway the Cleriths… Seriously, Nomura could actually go and say “All Cloud feels for Areith is Friendship, and Later Guilt. Not only does He Love Tifa, and wants to be with her always, but they do it every night till the sun comes up.” and they’d still deny it and make up excuses…

    And as for the “Koibito” thing. What I always say about that is, Yeah, “Koibito” means “Person who is Loved”, however, screw with the Kanji a bit and you get 鯉人 (Koibito) Which means “Carp-Person” Yes, Carp as in Fish. so I submit, that Tifa and Aerith are Cloud’s Fish-People. Cloud considers them to be a mutant race of Fish people.
    Argument Solved!

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 13:14

      You know what you’re talking about. Thank you, Rin.

      We’re not Clotis nor Cleriths here, we’re pro Fish-people!

      Unfortunately the fish-people isn’t Tifa and Aerith–it’s Cloud and Tifa. Tifa is a koibito to Cloud (Cloud sees her as a fish-person) and Cloud is a koibito to Aerith (Aerith sees him as a fish-person). I guess this would mean Cloud and Tifa are meant to be together, because they’re both mutant carps!

      (I laugh at anyone who takes that seriously.)

      Unless Nomura talks about Clerith positively, they won’t listen to anything else he says. Nothing will sway those Clerith, especially something that is TL;DR (too logical; didn’t read) to them. I don’t think they’d ever read anything as well thought-out as this anyway.

      (Now prove me wrong and read the whole article, and then rebut point for point. You know who you are.)

      PS: Squall_of_SeeD, you rock forever and ever. But… this article needs more Clack vs Clephiroth. XDDDD

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:55

      I’m now going to rename the LTD thread to the Broiling Fish Stew Thread.

  16. Lily
    #16 Lily 9 September, 2009, 17:31

    Ohhh, amazing arguments. Really. Nothing I’ve never heard before though… And I can think of hundreds of counter-arguments for every of yours that my fellow Cloriths and any reasonable Cloti will give much credit. I won’t start a new discussion, though.
    I’m just dropping by to say, please, will you stop this?? If there have been room for the triangle discussion through 12 years,
    1st – it isn’t now (or EVER) that this will be solved;
    2nd – this is one of the magics of the game that makes it everlasting, so why would you bother to ruin that??
    Even if SE releases an article intitulated “CLOUD AND TIFA MARRIES AND HAVE TWENTY CHILDREN” I won’t stop supporting Clorith, because I believe in them, as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.
    Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple. No one, I repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. It’s a triangle, for God’s sake, and what is left to a love-triangle if one of the extremities are cut off? Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters, there’s no logic in them getting in the bad side of half their fanbase. Think about that.
    Just one more thing… Stop bashing Clorith, will you? I’ve read your comments and I’m more disgusted than ever. You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa. I’ve never seen you refuting any Clorith arguments that wasn’t in the lines of “you Clorith are unreasonable”. I can affirm that my ship doesn’t do that! Who’s really unreasonable here???

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 18:04

      LOLOL Whut.

      “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple.”

      Please do the digging and show us. 😀 Join the forums so we can discuss this properly.

      “Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. ”

      Source, please? If it was SO clear, we should have seen it by now and ended this stupid LTD once and for all.

      So it will always be a triangle? I wonder why they made Crisis Core and all. Maybe they made CC so blatantly ZackxAerith until the end because they want the love triangle to continue? They even extended AC to show more of Zack. Uhh, yeah. The love triangle is still so a triangle. Who’s Zack Fair, First Class SOLDIER, again?

      “Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters,”

      Except no, there are three kinds of main ships in the fandom now. Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith. Zerith has grown quite big in the recent years, and Clotis are still more than Cleriths. Just FFnet is enough proof of that. Search for Cloud-Tifa fics, then Cloud-Aerith fics. Heck, even Zack-Aerith beats Cloud-Aerith. Internet numbers that you can clearly see with a click don’t lie.

      Maybe what you mean to say is that almost half of the fandom LIKES Clerith. I don’t mind that. My friends like it, a lot of people like it. WE DON’T CARE. They can ship the pairing they want to ship, but they can’t say which is canon and which is not when it’s not in their hands. Sorry to say.

      Also, please look at what the Clerith fandom is doing to the Clotis. Did Clotis ever make a hatelisting for Clerith? No. Is there a Cloti forum alive that bashes Cleriths behind their backs? No. Are Clotis making anti-Clerith banners and blatantly bashing characters on every other website they make? No.

      Who’s being unreasonable here? I beg you to search Cloti on google. What will you see? “Anti-Cloti” “Unofficial Cloti hatelisting” “Anti-Tifa” Wow, 12 years later, and they still haven’t matured.

      I should have been a full-fledged Clerith before, until I saw all of that. It’s a big turn-off.

      Just so you know, we have Clotis that absolutely love Aerith. I love Aerith. So why do Cleriths hate Tifa?

      What are you affirming that your ship isn’t doing? Don’t accuse the Clotis of being unreasonable. That’s just silly and downright hypocritical. And besides, what makes you think everyone here is a Cloti anyway? Jumping right down to labeling people who don’t agree with you?

      “You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa.”

      Did you watch ACC (the retcon of AC)? Actually, no, he thinks about Zack equally too. Are we supposed to argue that Cloud loves Zack just as much as Aerith and more than Tifa? So… Squall_of_SeeD is jealous that Cloud spent more of his time thinking about Zack and Aerith than Tifa, so he made a comprehensive analysis about the triangle of Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa? Wow, that makes a whole lot of sense.

      And before you label me as a OMGCLOTI, I’m actually more Fack than Cloti. Currently, anyway. Thanks to a Cloti shipper who’s writing an awesome ZackxTifa fic that I’m fangirling over right now, I got to like Fack more than Cloti. That doesn’t mean I want Fack to be OMGCANON. Things don’t work that way.

      I won’t stop supporting Cloti, even though it’s not my OTP. I won’t stop liking Fack just because it isn’t canon. I won’t stop supporting FFVII just because it’s practically as old as I am.

      See the freedom of choice?

      Oh noes some people probably didn’t reach this part of my comment before blowing their tops and getting emotionally involved with a video game pairing and wanting to flame me oh noes what do i do

      PS: OH LOOK HERE STARTS THE FLAME WAR. I BET I’M GOING TO BE FLAMED IN THE NEXT COMMENT BECAUSE I’M SO UNREASONABLE. LOLOLOLOLOL YAY

    • cReo
      cReo 9 September, 2009, 19:24

      ang haba naman ng sinulat mo….

      really…..

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 19:31

      Haha, sorry. Marami akong oras eh. Cancelled classes hanggang bukas hehehehehe XD

    • WHATEVER
      WHATEVER 2 March, 2015, 02:16

      WHAT THE HECK! PINOY! WOOOHOOO!!!

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 19:58

      We’ll have no bukakke in the latest LTD argument, kthx =D.

    • Bishojo1218
      Bishojo1218 15 July, 2010, 08:45

      ahaha. ou. ang haba ng sinilat niya.
      haha. makikisingit lng ako sa usapan niyo aa…

    • Treyu
      Treyu 5 October, 2009, 22:22

      Actually… I googled CloTi and I got pro-CloTi stuff everywhere. dA clubs, fanlistings, the works… I then googled Clerith and got the same, except for an ED page, which surprised me. I didn’t read it because well, I’m sure we all know what ED is like.

      I’m a Clerith shipper. I love the pairing and though I don’t mind CloTi shippers, I hate the ship mostly except for one song I think goes well with them. ANYWAY, not all Cleriths are all “omg Tifa sucks and should die in a fire”. I love Tifa! I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.

      The internet is so huge that you may have either missed some obscure CLoTi-shipping, Aerith hating site somewhere or you actually didn’t look. I didn’t find anything either, but I wouldn’t 100% deny that there was one, even if it’s some unpopular, outdated thing.

      Fack is awesome however. You are cool.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 5 October, 2009, 23:18

      “I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.”

      Tifa does not love Cloud like a son. And he does not love her like a mother.

      They are lovers, business partners and parents.

    • Makoeyes987
      Makoeyes987 Author 9 September, 2009, 21:46

      Of course this LT will never be solved. It’s not like there’s been any new creator commentary or creative work within those 12 years that gives any sort of position or narrative context that allows one to see Cloud’s true feelings. Yup, there’s no answer at all. Clearly it’s all a mystery.

      Btw, thank you for admitting to the fact you’d deny the truth even if the creators slapped you in the face with it. Stopped reading there. “Die for our ship!” fans are so amusing. It’s like common sense just goes out the window for some people.

    • fairheartstrife
      fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 22:05

      Aside from not knowing what “intitulated” means… I’d have to say your response is very rant-esque. There was no bashing in this essay–AT ALL. None. Zippo, zero, zilch, nadda. Soooo…I’m confused where that snide little remark comes in.

      Also, “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” ” Please, do. (In the proper forum of course)

      And last: “as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.” You bet your ass I’d stop “‘shipping” Cloti if they did that. It goes against the entire framework of compilation and characters…but I digress. Let’s say the magic EMO fairy makes Cloudy boy cut his life-strings and he does go float with Aerith I’d still respect the narrative, and consider that canon. Like it? No. But respect it and acknowledge it, yes. Acknowledging canon does NOT mean giving up your ship, it simply means accepting the compilation as creator intended. It’s not all that hard.

    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:37

      “repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue.”

      Proof plz

    • Tennyo
      Tennyo 10 September, 2009, 12:16

      1.) You’re right in that it probably won’t be resolved. XD
      2.) Nobody cares what ship you like best. NOBODY. Canon or not, just ship a ship and shut up about it, okay?
      3.) The vast majority of the FFVII fandom doesn’t even care about the LTD anyway, because in reality it is the least important aspect of the entire plot. FFVII is not a love story. It is not some cheesy romance novel or Twilight. So stop with the “half of us are clerith!” That doesn’t mean anything anyway. Shear numbers of believers don’t constitute proof.
      4.) Where in this article were Clerith shippers ever bashed? Where? Nowhere.

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 20:03

      All other points aside, you’re right on the fact that they’ll probably never create anything showing, for example, Cloud / Tifa getting married / getting it on directly, nor the same the other way around with Aerith (which would be a bit odd, considering she’s dead), nor him positively shunning either. Next to the base story of antagonist v.s. protagonist with superpowarz and loads of subplots, the LTD is quite possibly the main reason why FFVII is still discussed as much as it is. In fact, I can’t think of any other game that’s as old as FFVII that’s discussed about as much, or whose story is picked apart in such detail.

      And yeah, the creators / writers know that too. The quotes listed in the article don’t explicitly state ‘X is canon’, and I’m sure that if you’d have a video of the listed interviews, you’d see the people being interviews picking their wording very precisely, as to not bluntly say ‘X is canon’. ‘Cause that’d be dumb.

      However, it can’t be denied that at the current ‘time’ of the Compilation, Cloud is much closer to Tifa than with Aerith. Besides, people tend to quit being romantically interested in people years after they’re dead. Love, oh sure, but love in the old friend / family sense of the word.

    • kitty
      kitty 14 May, 2020, 08:34

      Bravo!

  17. ss
    #17 ss 9 September, 2009, 17:52

    I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral. First, it doesn’t matter how many editorial ‘pieces’ you’ve made on the Final Fantasy game series, it doesn’t a) make anything you say official or b) make it anything more than just your opinions which have already been biased by your clear preference for one girl over an other.

    I mean if we’re going to be posting this guy’s opnion on the love triangle, let’s ask a thoughtful, well-written CloudxAerith shipper about her thoughts, or a thoughtful, well-written CloudxZack shipper (like me) about HER thoughts and they’ll probably be able to give equally thoughtful and well-written essays explaining why they’re OPINIONS are somehow canon.

    Only they probably wouldn’t have the name or the mighty creditials (ie: wrote essay about Ultmecia…wooo) to make their biased fan opinion seem official.

    Look in the end you’re just a guy with your own opinions. You wrote a nice article, but no one should take it as having any more proof about the original intentions of the series than ANY well-written article written by ANY other blatant shipper about ANY other pairing in existence.

    Unless you’re secretly one of the original creators, I don’t give a shit about what you say. Sorry. But I’m sure other Clotis really appreciated you validating their opinions (just like, had I written a CloudxZack essay, Clackers would be kissing MY ass).

    Reply to this comment
    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 9 September, 2009, 18:06

      DO THE ESSAY. DO IT.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD 9 September, 2009, 20:55

      Thanks for your response, SS.

      I believe what you overlooked in this article, however, is that I didn’t present my opinion as the definitive answer. Instead, I presented the words of the individual who wrote most of the FFVII titles — including the original — as that definitive answer.

      Given that you say you would concern yourself with what the original creators say, I must, then, ask why you don’t address them in your reply. You address only me.

      I’m more or less just compiling the various things they have said on the matter into one place.

      Any article you read featuring the words of those designers will probably be presented to you by someone else. Does that dilute the relevance of what they’ve said?

      As for my preference of Tifa biasing my views of the matter, that’s not an unreasonable concern. However, as you may know, in any public address, it’s necessary to state one’s personal views upfront. Otherwise, it becomes a question of honesty.

      Would you prefer one who has made up their mind keep that a secret while speaking to you behind a veil of complete objectivity, or would you prefer that they tell you their views and then explain why they hold them?

      You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.

      This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis. They must attempt to distance themselves as much as possible while drawing their conclusions, however.

      You are free to disagree, but I believe my three-and-a-half-year absence from this fandom has given me a degree of distance. I will tell you outright that I could not have objectively discussed this matter in 2005.

      I believe I’ve done a reasonable job of it at this point, however. I started with the developers’ comments as both foundation and framework, analyzing the various materials through that lens and in light of one another.

      While I would agree with you or Lily that there are a multitude of counterarguments to be made, I also feel — from my, yes, potentially flawed perspective — that they only work when made in isolation. Not when examining the context of all materials present, with each individual component part of a whole, and without value when examined as not part of the whole.

      It’s reasonable enough to see Cloud’s line about meeting Aerith at the end of FFVII as a sign of yearning when examined in isolation. Looking back on it today, the original game alone presented as strong an argument for Aerith as for Tifa — and arguably a stronger one.

      Likewise, it’s easy to see how Cloud leaving the family situation he had with Tifa as a sign that he was unhappy being around her — but only if you stop there. If you don’t look at AC/ACC or the various comments on the matter from the developers, you wouldn’t know he left because he was happy there but felt unworthy of it.

      I’m not, however, examining this matter in light of the original game alone or “On the Way to a Smile” alone. If all are to be treated as part of a larger body of work, then all must be examined in the context of one another.

      I hope you see where I’m coming from better now. You are, of course, still free to disagree.

    • Reina
      Reina 13 September, 2009, 10:38

      I agree with everthing you said here but I especially would like to point out one section:

      “You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.”

      This is such an overlooked and important aspect of debates

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze 9 September, 2009, 22:33

      Typically, a number of the people you see arguing ‘for’ C/T aren’t shipping it. They are simply seeing the common sense answer by taking all the available evidence and attempting to parse it in a rational manner. They are without emotional preference in the matter, and aside from the people who claim it has no answer or have no opinion, that is as close as it’s going to get.

    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:36

      It’s his opinion that Nojima and Nomura have said that Cloud and Tifa are a couple?…

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 10 September, 2009, 04:12

      SoS is so powerful than he can make Nomura and Nojima tell everyone his completely baseless, biased, Cloti opinion?

      Wow, he’s getting cooler by the minute…

    • Cthulhu
      Cthulhu 15 September, 2009, 20:11

      “I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral.”

      If you’d give someone neutral FFVII and let him play it, halfway he’d go ‘Cloud obviously lieks Aerith, lol’, and quite likely stick by it. But if you want someone neutral to give his / her own, neutral opinion, you’d have to give him / her all the available materials, make him/her play all the games, read everything.

      In the end, that person, as indicated earlier, would no longer be neutral, and be quite likely as confused as everyone else. Cleriths and Clotis are both groups that played the games, read the comments, the interviews, and everything, and which have both interpreted the story in their own way – Tifa-focussed, or Aerith-focussed. There’s nothing a ‘neutral’ party can say about that.

      In the end, it’s personal preference. Facts are abundant, but remain vague and sometimes open to interpretation, and are always given a certain ‘strength’ based on the reader and the source of that fact. The amount of strength given to a creator saying ‘yeh cloti is cannon’ would be low in the eyes of a Clerith shipper, and vice-versa.

      So yeah.

    • Winterine
      Winterine 6 August, 2010, 05:59

      I agree, do the essay!
      I’m too busy to even contemplate doing it myself 😀

  18. fairheartstrife
    #18 fairheartstrife 9 September, 2009, 18:57

    First off Squall_of_Seed’s LTD essay isn’t “Pro-Cloti” ‘Shipping opinion. It follows the narrative of compilation, and comes up with a conclusion BASED on that; not opinion. The counter argument of “This won’t change anything” is stupid. It’s not meant to CHANGE anything. Compilation is what it is, and in it there IS a definitive answer. THIS just points it out with big neon signs for those too ‘ship-blind to see it. **sigh**

    It’s also NOT and OP-ED piece. It’s compilation, creator statement, and fact. People seriously need to learn what an opinionated essay is versus what a factual reconstruction of a narrative is.

    No one is kissing any ass (jealous much?), but there are plenty of thanks for the time taken to compile the FACTS into this essay form.

    You all can put your lighters back in your pockets. For real.

    Reply to this comment
  19. Vendel
    #19 Vendel 9 September, 2009, 22:58

    It’s strange. This makes complete logical sense.

    Almost as if it was intended that way by the creators.

    Reply to this comment
    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 9 September, 2009, 23:35

      Stop that blasphemy this instant >:(

    • I Am Not Me
      I Am Not Me 10 September, 2009, 04:19

      Vendel, FFVII is just a game with a storyline that was only intended to be interpreted point for point. Nothing was intended by the creators. Everything was intended by the fans. It’s obviously more logical this way.

      I agree with Quexi. Stop this nonsense! >:(

      Stop the trolling! /lookwho’stalking

    • rabbitbooboo
      rabbitbooboo 31 May, 2010, 20:31

      I agree with Quexi and I Am Not Me. Vendel is the one who constantly make nonsense comments but flaming people being nonsense.

  20. OWD
    #20 OWD 10 September, 2009, 02:35

    Yes, the Clerii have come up with a multitude of so-called counter arguments.

    Remember the made up Japanese people dining at WacDonalds making up shit like koi___bito being two words and not meaning what it does (unless it’s used in reference to Aeris)É
    The rest fo them follow in a similar fashion.

    Reply to this comment
    • Lolwut
      Lolwut 9 January, 2010, 20:29

      OWD, You strike me as someone who would write articles for Destiny Failed. CloTis make up shit all the time, so don’t go and make all Cleriths look like lying wackjobs with no valid arguments.

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