The Love Triangle of FFVII – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD
by Makoeyes987 September 25, 2009 0 commentsAn often debated area where Tifa pulls ahead, though, is in terms of who knows Cloud better and is closest to him. While Aerith’s Cetra abilities allowed her to see Cloud for who he really was according to the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 223) and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 48), Tifa’s Dengeki PlayStation 3 profile for ACC describes her as the only person who knows Cloud’s past and the one person who understands him.
That same profile credits her not only for mentally supporting Cloud in the original game, but also for inciting Cloud to regain his will to fight.
Though Nojima said in the Reunion Files that Tifa still doesn’t fully get
Cloud (pg. 19), she certainly is described as coming closer than anyone else. For that matter, completely understanding another person is a life-long journey.
And speaking of balance, one really has to ask: If there were no Tifa, would there still be enough evidence post-FFVII to suggest that Cloud is in love with Aerith? He loves her, sure, but would he otherwise seem romantically interested?
That’s not to say he wasn’t attracted in her in the original game, but it is to say that the strongest and most consistent emotion he expresses where she’s concerned post-FFVII is guilt. Even when he thinks that Aerith sent Denzel to him in OtWtaS: CoT, the context is hardly romantic. He believes it’s part of his redemption, the same as Tifa, who feels that Aerith sent Denzel to her as well.
The strongest and most consistent emotion he expresses where she’s concerned is guilt. Even when he thinks that Aerith sent Denzel to him in OtWtaS: CoT, the context is hardly romantic. He believes it’s part of his redemption, the same as Tifa, who feels that Aerith sent Denzel to her as well.
On the other hand, were there no Aerith, I don’t think anyone would question what’s established by the Highwind scene, the Case of Tifa and Case of Barret dialogue, and the family structure with Tifa.
The only points left that might be seen as favorable to CloudxAerith are Cait Sith’s fortunetelling prediction in the original game about Cloud and Aerith having a “great future” and marriage, and Cloud’s line from the ending of the original game, “The Promised Land… I think I can meet her… there.”
With regard to the first matter, Caith Sith’s prediction was way off. It was very soon after that when Aerith died on Sephiroth’s sword. Have fun playing with that line metaphorically, by the way.
Anyway, Caith Sith’s predictions are unreliable to begin with. The FFVII Ultimania Omega describes them as such, and says they’re usually wrong (pg. 41). And, again, we see Aerith get impaled only shortly after Cait Sith makes a prediction for her to have a happy future with Cloud. That really says it all right there.
On the second matter, indeed, that commercial from 1997 shows Cloud and Aerith on-screen while a caption appears that says “Love” and the narrator says, “A story … of a love that can never be”:
However, it goes without saying that the game’s developers had no hand in its marketing in the U.S. The commercial was just throwing out lines that made the
game sound all the more interesting, regardless of their accuracy where the story was concerned.
For instance, the very next line from the narrator accompanies a shot of Sephiroth while saying, “… and a hatred that always was.” Whether this is referring to Cloud’s hatred of Sephiroth or Sephiroth’s hatred of Cloud, neither “always was.” Cloud once admired Sephiroth, and Sephiroth once regarded Cloud as simply another ordinary Shin-Ra soldier.
For that matter, the idea that Cloud and Aerith are “a love that can never be” runs counter to the philosophy of Clerith to begin with, so it’s probably not the best piece of evidence to turn to in support of it.
In any case, one wouldn’t reference Final Fantasy VIII’s U.S. commercial as evidence that Squall was out to win Rinoa’s heart simply because the ad says that game was a story of Squall’s “struggle to save mankind from extinction and his quest to win the heart of the woman he loves.” While Squall was certainly trying to prevent the end of the world — the whole universe, actually — he never had a quest to win Rinoa’s heart. It was actually much the opposite — she was trying to win his heart.
As for the third issue at hand, Cloud being able to sense Aerith’s
whereabouts in the City of the Ancients and hear her voice from afar has been seen as a sign of a powerful bond between them since the game’s release in 1997. Indeed, Cloud says that he can feel it in his soul that Aerith is there.
While Cloud is certainly able to sense her presence when AVALANCHE goes to search for her in the City of the Ancients, this alone can’t be taken as an indication of a romantic connection given that — in the same breath — Cloud also says that he senses Sephiroth’s presence: “Aerith is here. …and so is Sephiroth.”
Given that both Sephiroth and Aerith had been in telepathic contact with Cloud before this moment — and very recently at that — it stands to reason that Cloud could be sensing either or both of them because of this, and through either one of them. Sephiroth, after all, *wanted* Cloud to find Aerith so that he could force him to kill her.
Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.
Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.
While this, no doubt, expressed a sentiment on Cloud’s part to see Aerith again — a desire that continued through Dissidia: Final Fantasy and On the Way to a Smile into Advent Children — he was already feeling guilt over her death and wanted absolution from it. In Case of Tifa, even as he stood on the Highwind watching the Lifestream and Holy defeat Meteor, he was already speaking of a need to be forgiven:
“I’m going to live. I’ll never be forgiven unless I do.”
Also, if you happen to count ‘The Maiden Who Travels the Planet’ as in-continuity, then the meeting Cloud referred to in the ending was resolved by he and the rest of the team seeing Aerith’s image in the Lifestream as Meteor was overcome.
Even if you don’t count Maiden though, the matter is resolved by the end of Advent Children/Advent Children Complete and pg. 131 of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania.
There, a statement that has been counted in favor of both pairings is made, identifying Cloud’s Promised Land as “the place where he awakens” at the end of AC/ACC:
(Scan and translation by hitoshura)
“The place where he awakens—
That is Cloud’s Promised Land
As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.
When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.
And when he turns around— ‘she’ is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness… And so they too go back to where they belong.
Back to the current of life flowing around the planet—.”
As “the place where he awakens” is Aerith’s church, a number of Clerith fans have taken this as an indication that Cloud was and still is in love with her. Many Cloti fans, on the other hand, have taken the presence of his family, the defeat of geostigma, and the release from his guilt as the reason for this place being his Promised Land.
I would argue that the latter is closer to the truth.
As established by Case of Tifa, Cloud was already blaming himself for “sins” by the end of the original game, shortly after he spoke of meeting Aerith in the Promised Land. Here — in this place identified as Cloud’s Promised Land — he not only sees Aerith, but gets what he had been hoping to get from her when he saw her again: a sense of absolution from his guilt.
Cloud realizes that he has forgiven himself and can move on with his life. He’ll go back to “where he is meant to live.”
And what is this place where he is meant to live? As mentioned earlier, pg. 33 of the Crisis Core Ultimania confirms that it is with Tifa and the children Cloud lives after the events of AC/ACC, even on into the time of Dirge of Cerberus.
I would also make the argument that the physical place itself in which
Cloud awoke is not on its own capable of giving him the supreme joy
that comes with finding the Promised Land. He had been staying there even while at his most miserable, after all.
It’s what he found in that place with him that gave him that joy.
For example, Sephiroth and Shin-Ra’s Promised Lands were identified as the Northern Crater in the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pp. 214, 586) — in both cases, a place that facilitated their ultimate desire, but which weren’t that desire in and of themselves.
Sephiroth wanted the energy to cast Meteor. Shin-Ra wanted to acquire further power and wealth. Neither of those things were granted inherently by being at the Northern Crater — but the doors were opened.
We know Cloud had been searching for his Promised Land and absolution from his “sins” since the end of the original game. It was there in the church at the end of AC/ACC that he found it. Surrounded by his friends and family, he realized that he belonged with them, and that he had forgiven himself for Aerith and Zack’s deaths.
The church is Cloud’s Promised Land not because of romantic feelings for Aerith, but because it is where Cloud finally had laid his past to rest and began a new life with his family.
In any case, Cloud hardly seemed to have been left emotionally crippled by Aerith’s loss at the time of the “I think I can meet her… there” line given how quickly he went about establishing himself with Tifa. In light of that and the comments referenced above, it’s unlikely that it was romantic feelings that led Cloud to a desire to seek Aerith out.
Prior to the publication of FFVII’s 10th Anniversary Ultimania, a number of people who held the Clerith perspective had believed that Cloud’s Promised Land was the field of flowers he drives past in the ending of AC/ACC. The idea was derived from and reinforced by Aerith watching him as he passes in the original AC’s credits, as well as the sight of Cloud’s bike parked by the side of the road at the flower field in FFVII Reminiscence.
The flowers on Cloud’s desk at the end of AC’s credits and photos of the field certainly showed that he had been there at any rate. Many a Clerith took this to mean that Cloud had spent the day with Aerith in the field, thus fulfilling his wish to meet her again. It was, after all, not long after the video had recapped the ending of the game that Cloud’s bike was shown parked by the flower field.
Even before FFVII’s 10th Anniversary Ultimania, however, this idea was at odds with AC, where Cloud had already met Aerith again. FFVII Reminiscence takes place after the events of AC/ACC — evident by Vincent now owning a cell phone — so Cloud had already fulfilled that wish to meeet Aerith again in his Promised Land.
For that matter, when Aerith is shown in the credits of the film, Cloud is not shown stopping at the field, nor even seeing her. He simply keeps on driving around the bend.
Furthermore, the passage from the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania referenced above gives the impression that, while Zack and Aerith will continue to watch over Cloud, they won’t actually be interacting with him in the living world. It’s said both in that passage and by Zack in the film itself that Cloud’s place wasn’t with them yet. As well, that section of the book states that Aerith and Zack also “go back to where they belong … the current of life flowing around the planet.”
In like with that, the script of Advent Children included with the film’s
Limited Edition release in North America stated that the apparition of Aerith seen in the field was simply “vestiges of Aerith (nothing with any presence in reality).”
Aerith wasn’t even really there to begin with.
Statements like this would seem to preclude Cloud and Aerith getting together in the flower field.
Another element of the Ultimania passage discussed above still considered to be pro-Clerith is the statement that Cloud “no longer has to suffer in loneliness.” Coupled with his response in the ending to Aerith’s statement that everything’s alright — “I’m not alone. Not anymore” — this is seen from the Clerith perspective to mean that Cloud no longer feels alone because he knows that Aerith is still with him in a sense.
Certainly that’s one possible reading of the material, but it doesn’t fit given that Cloud still felt lonely and useless until after his conversation with Vincent in the Sleeping Forest. Before that point, he’d already spoken with Aerith in his mind, so he knew she was still with him — yet his feelings of despair were still there regardless.
In any case, even were the knowledge that Aerith remains with him spiritually to be the reason for Cloud no longer having to suffer in loneliness, like so much else related to Aerith and Cloud in Advent Children, this could apply to Zack as well. Zack shows up almost as many times as Aerith, and certainly also means a great deal to Cloud.
In any case, this article would argue that the real reasons for Cloud’s
loneliness were that he isolated himself. He chose to be both lonely and alone, as he felt he didn’t deserve the people he cared about if he couldn’t protect them.
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Thank you very much for this ^_^
This was an awesome read. You make many well thought out, concise and clear points throughout. Thank you for taking the time to do these FAQs.
Bravo… lovely read, i agree with you and this was very well thought out and there were no bias comments on the matter… ^.^ finally things can be wat they were always meant to b Zack + Aerith and Cloud + Tifa ….. lol thank you
In before flamewar…
I mean, awesome analysis.<3
It’s basically a summary of the LTD threads lol.
You are correct, I honestly don’t think there is any more subjects to pick, Cloud wanted forgiveness and Aerith/Zack where the only ones capable of giving it.
I also think that after his “release from the guilt” life with Tifa is just a matter of time.
It’s always good to see a throughful yet still hard pressed factual analysis. I do think you focus all the “core” points of the LTD and do it in a simple yet objective way (backing it up with evidence from the series but, most importantly, from the comments and views of the Compilation creators/developers as well. The evidence has always been there for everyone to see… The latest Compilation titles have only made it all more clear. I sincerely believe the LTD has an answer and that is that Cloud and Tifa are meant to be (the same way Zack and Aerith are together in the afterlife).So what can I say more…? Not much, except “well done”.
I’ve made my other comments in the PM, but good job, man. Concise summation of all the common sense arguments that’ve been floating around for ages.
Wow, I always belived myself to be a Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith person, but I personally always hated Aerith because she started hitting on Cloud in the first place. I was pretty much on that thought the whole time until the last line about Zack’s Buster Sword and Aerith’s flowers of how Cloud knows that the two belong together as he and Tifa do. I do believe that my hatred for Aerith is now null and void.
And still, well done to Squall_of_SeeD. I’ve read all the articles of summerizations he has put to the compilation and he never ceases to amaze me. Well done as usual.
(Not to mention this one actually ended up making me go teary-eyed. :3)
You are my new hero, Squall_of_SeeD!
Very very well done. But this still won’t end the debate unfortunately.
The only thing in all of that I didn’t inherently agree with was a pretty minor point anyway – Cloud’s crystal in Dissidia. I always figured it was the Holy materia, but I didn’t take it as really having anything to do with Aerith, just as it is FF7’s most notable “crystal.” Indeed, I didn’t even pick up on the fact that Cloud was referring to Aerith by the “one he wanted to meet.”
True, many of the crystals are ‘generic’ symbols of their respective game, a lot of them are specific.
The oddly named “White Materia” always appeared green and the size isn’t relevent as Zidane’s crystal should be 5x his size.
But, as I said, minor point, and not one that I even consider to relate to the LTD.
But again, if it were the Holy materia, why would it not be mentioned as a relevant personal connection to FFVII? If a feather belonging to Rinoa is worth a mention in Dissidia’s Ultimania, along with a reference to Zack in regards to his statement about the Buster Sword…why would the Crystal being the White Materia just be inexplicably forgotten? It’s not the same size or color, which would be necessary to equate it as such.
Oh I know, if the Ultimania doesn’t mention it than it isn’t. I was just saying that I thought it was Holy but only for the reference to the Planet, not her.
Thanks for your responses, everyone. I appreciate your kindness.
@ForceStealer: I’d agree that the size of the materia wouldn’t be relevant if it seemed that Zidane’s crystal was supposed to be the actual crystal of creation. I think it was just a representation of it, though, for the very reasons I don’t think Cloud’s crystal is the White Materia — the size and the color.
Nonetheless, thanks for your feedback.
I just read this again and I have to say again, this is really awesome XD
I posted it on a couple sites and showed a couple friends too ^_^
Cloti loves this!
Clerith doenst.
Squall_of_seed’s just a Cloti!
Nothing’s new.
:kermit:
What an insightful and valid criticism. Did you read the article or what? Cause if that’s all you have to say, it doesn’t really seem like you did.
HAHAHA.
M’kay.
And you’re a Clerith.
… the saddest part? The only part worth mentioning here is the blatant mispelling of ‘doesn’t
That and to note that I did indeed call that SoS would be labeled ‘just a Cloti’ when this hit.
Nothing’s new indeed, :monster:.
Bleah! is that all you have to say?!
Yup
I agree with my Friend Quexinos
Finally, someone does an intelligent, well thought-out article on the subject…
Too Bad it won’t Sway the Cleriths… Seriously, Nomura could actually go and say “All Cloud feels for Areith is Friendship, and Later Guilt. Not only does He Love Tifa, and wants to be with her always, but they do it every night till the sun comes up.” and they’d still deny it and make up excuses…
And as for the “Koibito” thing. What I always say about that is, Yeah, “Koibito” means “Person who is Loved”, however, screw with the Kanji a bit and you get 鯉人 (Koibito) Which means “Carp-Person” Yes, Carp as in Fish. so I submit, that Tifa and Aerith are Cloud’s Fish-People. Cloud considers them to be a mutant race of Fish people.
Argument Solved!
You know what you’re talking about. Thank you, Rin.
We’re not Clotis nor Cleriths here, we’re pro Fish-people!
Unfortunately the fish-people isn’t Tifa and Aerith–it’s Cloud and Tifa. Tifa is a koibito to Cloud (Cloud sees her as a fish-person) and Cloud is a koibito to Aerith (Aerith sees him as a fish-person). I guess this would mean Cloud and Tifa are meant to be together, because they’re both mutant carps!
(I laugh at anyone who takes that seriously.)
Unless Nomura talks about Clerith positively, they won’t listen to anything else he says. Nothing will sway those Clerith, especially something that is TL;DR (too logical; didn’t read) to them. I don’t think they’d ever read anything as well thought-out as this anyway.
(Now prove me wrong and read the whole article, and then rebut point for point. You know who you are.)
PS: Squall_of_SeeD, you rock forever and ever. But… this article needs more Clack vs Clephiroth. XDDDD
I’m now going to rename the LTD thread to the Broiling Fish Stew Thread.
Ohhh, amazing arguments. Really. Nothing I’ve never heard before though… And I can think of hundreds of counter-arguments for every of yours that my fellow Cloriths and any reasonable Cloti will give much credit. I won’t start a new discussion, though.
I’m just dropping by to say, please, will you stop this?? If there have been room for the triangle discussion through 12 years,
1st – it isn’t now (or EVER) that this will be solved;
2nd – this is one of the magics of the game that makes it everlasting, so why would you bother to ruin that??
Even if SE releases an article intitulated “CLOUD AND TIFA MARRIES AND HAVE TWENTY CHILDREN” I won’t stop supporting Clorith, because I believe in them, as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.
Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple. No one, I repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. It’s a triangle, for God’s sake, and what is left to a love-triangle if one of the extremities are cut off? Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters, there’s no logic in them getting in the bad side of half their fanbase. Think about that.
Just one more thing… Stop bashing Clorith, will you? I’ve read your comments and I’m more disgusted than ever. You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa. I’ve never seen you refuting any Clorith arguments that wasn’t in the lines of “you Clorith are unreasonable”. I can affirm that my ship doesn’t do that! Who’s really unreasonable here???
LOLOL Whut.
“Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple.”
Please do the digging and show us. 😀 Join the forums so we can discuss this properly.
“Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. ”
Source, please? If it was SO clear, we should have seen it by now and ended this stupid LTD once and for all.
So it will always be a triangle? I wonder why they made Crisis Core and all. Maybe they made CC so blatantly ZackxAerith until the end because they want the love triangle to continue? They even extended AC to show more of Zack. Uhh, yeah. The love triangle is still so a triangle. Who’s Zack Fair, First Class SOLDIER, again?
“Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters,”
Except no, there are three kinds of main ships in the fandom now. Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith. Zerith has grown quite big in the recent years, and Clotis are still more than Cleriths. Just FFnet is enough proof of that. Search for Cloud-Tifa fics, then Cloud-Aerith fics. Heck, even Zack-Aerith beats Cloud-Aerith. Internet numbers that you can clearly see with a click don’t lie.
Maybe what you mean to say is that almost half of the fandom LIKES Clerith. I don’t mind that. My friends like it, a lot of people like it. WE DON’T CARE. They can ship the pairing they want to ship, but they can’t say which is canon and which is not when it’s not in their hands. Sorry to say.
Also, please look at what the Clerith fandom is doing to the Clotis. Did Clotis ever make a hatelisting for Clerith? No. Is there a Cloti forum alive that bashes Cleriths behind their backs? No. Are Clotis making anti-Clerith banners and blatantly bashing characters on every other website they make? No.
Who’s being unreasonable here? I beg you to search Cloti on google. What will you see? “Anti-Cloti” “Unofficial Cloti hatelisting” “Anti-Tifa” Wow, 12 years later, and they still haven’t matured.
I should have been a full-fledged Clerith before, until I saw all of that. It’s a big turn-off.
Just so you know, we have Clotis that absolutely love Aerith. I love Aerith. So why do Cleriths hate Tifa?
What are you affirming that your ship isn’t doing? Don’t accuse the Clotis of being unreasonable. That’s just silly and downright hypocritical. And besides, what makes you think everyone here is a Cloti anyway? Jumping right down to labeling people who don’t agree with you?
“You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa.”
Did you watch ACC (the retcon of AC)? Actually, no, he thinks about Zack equally too. Are we supposed to argue that Cloud loves Zack just as much as Aerith and more than Tifa? So… Squall_of_SeeD is jealous that Cloud spent more of his time thinking about Zack and Aerith than Tifa, so he made a comprehensive analysis about the triangle of Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa? Wow, that makes a whole lot of sense.
And before you label me as a OMGCLOTI, I’m actually more Fack than Cloti. Currently, anyway. Thanks to a Cloti shipper who’s writing an awesome ZackxTifa fic that I’m fangirling over right now, I got to like Fack more than Cloti. That doesn’t mean I want Fack to be OMGCANON. Things don’t work that way.
I won’t stop supporting Cloti, even though it’s not my OTP. I won’t stop liking Fack just because it isn’t canon. I won’t stop supporting FFVII just because it’s practically as old as I am.
See the freedom of choice?
Oh noes some people probably didn’t reach this part of my comment before blowing their tops and getting emotionally involved with a video game pairing and wanting to flame me oh noes what do i do
PS: OH LOOK HERE STARTS THE FLAME WAR. I BET I’M GOING TO BE FLAMED IN THE NEXT COMMENT BECAUSE I’M SO UNREASONABLE. LOLOLOLOLOL YAY
ang haba naman ng sinulat mo….
really…..
Haha, sorry. Marami akong oras eh. Cancelled classes hanggang bukas hehehehehe XD
WHAT THE HECK! PINOY! WOOOHOOO!!!
We’ll have no bukakke in the latest LTD argument, kthx =D.
ahaha. ou. ang haba ng sinilat niya.
haha. makikisingit lng ako sa usapan niyo aa…
Actually… I googled CloTi and I got pro-CloTi stuff everywhere. dA clubs, fanlistings, the works… I then googled Clerith and got the same, except for an ED page, which surprised me. I didn’t read it because well, I’m sure we all know what ED is like.
I’m a Clerith shipper. I love the pairing and though I don’t mind CloTi shippers, I hate the ship mostly except for one song I think goes well with them. ANYWAY, not all Cleriths are all “omg Tifa sucks and should die in a fire”. I love Tifa! I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.
The internet is so huge that you may have either missed some obscure CLoTi-shipping, Aerith hating site somewhere or you actually didn’t look. I didn’t find anything either, but I wouldn’t 100% deny that there was one, even if it’s some unpopular, outdated thing.
Fack is awesome however. You are cool.
“I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.”
Tifa does not love Cloud like a son. And he does not love her like a mother.
They are lovers, business partners and parents.
Of course this LT will never be solved. It’s not like there’s been any new creator commentary or creative work within those 12 years that gives any sort of position or narrative context that allows one to see Cloud’s true feelings. Yup, there’s no answer at all. Clearly it’s all a mystery.
Btw, thank you for admitting to the fact you’d deny the truth even if the creators slapped you in the face with it. Stopped reading there. “Die for our ship!” fans are so amusing. It’s like common sense just goes out the window for some people.
Aside from not knowing what “intitulated” means… I’d have to say your response is very rant-esque. There was no bashing in this essay–AT ALL. None. Zippo, zero, zilch, nadda. Soooo…I’m confused where that snide little remark comes in.
Also, “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” ” Please, do. (In the proper forum of course)
And last: “as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.” You bet your ass I’d stop “‘shipping” Cloti if they did that. It goes against the entire framework of compilation and characters…but I digress. Let’s say the magic EMO fairy makes Cloudy boy cut his life-strings and he does go float with Aerith I’d still respect the narrative, and consider that canon. Like it? No. But respect it and acknowledge it, yes. Acknowledging canon does NOT mean giving up your ship, it simply means accepting the compilation as creator intended. It’s not all that hard.
“repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue.”
Proof plz
1.) You’re right in that it probably won’t be resolved. XD
2.) Nobody cares what ship you like best. NOBODY. Canon or not, just ship a ship and shut up about it, okay?
3.) The vast majority of the FFVII fandom doesn’t even care about the LTD anyway, because in reality it is the least important aspect of the entire plot. FFVII is not a love story. It is not some cheesy romance novel or Twilight. So stop with the “half of us are clerith!” That doesn’t mean anything anyway. Shear numbers of believers don’t constitute proof.
4.) Where in this article were Clerith shippers ever bashed? Where? Nowhere.
All other points aside, you’re right on the fact that they’ll probably never create anything showing, for example, Cloud / Tifa getting married / getting it on directly, nor the same the other way around with Aerith (which would be a bit odd, considering she’s dead), nor him positively shunning either. Next to the base story of antagonist v.s. protagonist with superpowarz and loads of subplots, the LTD is quite possibly the main reason why FFVII is still discussed as much as it is. In fact, I can’t think of any other game that’s as old as FFVII that’s discussed about as much, or whose story is picked apart in such detail.
And yeah, the creators / writers know that too. The quotes listed in the article don’t explicitly state ‘X is canon’, and I’m sure that if you’d have a video of the listed interviews, you’d see the people being interviews picking their wording very precisely, as to not bluntly say ‘X is canon’. ‘Cause that’d be dumb.
However, it can’t be denied that at the current ‘time’ of the Compilation, Cloud is much closer to Tifa than with Aerith. Besides, people tend to quit being romantically interested in people years after they’re dead. Love, oh sure, but love in the old friend / family sense of the word.
Bravo!
I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral. First, it doesn’t matter how many editorial ‘pieces’ you’ve made on the Final Fantasy game series, it doesn’t a) make anything you say official or b) make it anything more than just your opinions which have already been biased by your clear preference for one girl over an other.
I mean if we’re going to be posting this guy’s opnion on the love triangle, let’s ask a thoughtful, well-written CloudxAerith shipper about her thoughts, or a thoughtful, well-written CloudxZack shipper (like me) about HER thoughts and they’ll probably be able to give equally thoughtful and well-written essays explaining why they’re OPINIONS are somehow canon.
Only they probably wouldn’t have the name or the mighty creditials (ie: wrote essay about Ultmecia…wooo) to make their biased fan opinion seem official.
Look in the end you’re just a guy with your own opinions. You wrote a nice article, but no one should take it as having any more proof about the original intentions of the series than ANY well-written article written by ANY other blatant shipper about ANY other pairing in existence.
Unless you’re secretly one of the original creators, I don’t give a shit about what you say. Sorry. But I’m sure other Clotis really appreciated you validating their opinions (just like, had I written a CloudxZack essay, Clackers would be kissing MY ass).
DO THE ESSAY. DO IT.
Thanks for your response, SS.
I believe what you overlooked in this article, however, is that I didn’t present my opinion as the definitive answer. Instead, I presented the words of the individual who wrote most of the FFVII titles — including the original — as that definitive answer.
Given that you say you would concern yourself with what the original creators say, I must, then, ask why you don’t address them in your reply. You address only me.
I’m more or less just compiling the various things they have said on the matter into one place.
Any article you read featuring the words of those designers will probably be presented to you by someone else. Does that dilute the relevance of what they’ve said?
As for my preference of Tifa biasing my views of the matter, that’s not an unreasonable concern. However, as you may know, in any public address, it’s necessary to state one’s personal views upfront. Otherwise, it becomes a question of honesty.
Would you prefer one who has made up their mind keep that a secret while speaking to you behind a veil of complete objectivity, or would you prefer that they tell you their views and then explain why they hold them?
You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.
This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis. They must attempt to distance themselves as much as possible while drawing their conclusions, however.
You are free to disagree, but I believe my three-and-a-half-year absence from this fandom has given me a degree of distance. I will tell you outright that I could not have objectively discussed this matter in 2005.
I believe I’ve done a reasonable job of it at this point, however. I started with the developers’ comments as both foundation and framework, analyzing the various materials through that lens and in light of one another.
While I would agree with you or Lily that there are a multitude of counterarguments to be made, I also feel — from my, yes, potentially flawed perspective — that they only work when made in isolation. Not when examining the context of all materials present, with each individual component part of a whole, and without value when examined as not part of the whole.
It’s reasonable enough to see Cloud’s line about meeting Aerith at the end of FFVII as a sign of yearning when examined in isolation. Looking back on it today, the original game alone presented as strong an argument for Aerith as for Tifa — and arguably a stronger one.
Likewise, it’s easy to see how Cloud leaving the family situation he had with Tifa as a sign that he was unhappy being around her — but only if you stop there. If you don’t look at AC/ACC or the various comments on the matter from the developers, you wouldn’t know he left because he was happy there but felt unworthy of it.
I’m not, however, examining this matter in light of the original game alone or “On the Way to a Smile” alone. If all are to be treated as part of a larger body of work, then all must be examined in the context of one another.
I hope you see where I’m coming from better now. You are, of course, still free to disagree.
I agree with everthing you said here but I especially would like to point out one section:
“You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.”
This is such an overlooked and important aspect of debates
Typically, a number of the people you see arguing ‘for’ C/T aren’t shipping it. They are simply seeing the common sense answer by taking all the available evidence and attempting to parse it in a rational manner. They are without emotional preference in the matter, and aside from the people who claim it has no answer or have no opinion, that is as close as it’s going to get.
It’s his opinion that Nojima and Nomura have said that Cloud and Tifa are a couple?…
SoS is so powerful than he can make Nomura and Nojima tell everyone his completely baseless, biased, Cloti opinion?
Wow, he’s getting cooler by the minute…
“I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral.”
If you’d give someone neutral FFVII and let him play it, halfway he’d go ‘Cloud obviously lieks Aerith, lol’, and quite likely stick by it. But if you want someone neutral to give his / her own, neutral opinion, you’d have to give him / her all the available materials, make him/her play all the games, read everything.
In the end, that person, as indicated earlier, would no longer be neutral, and be quite likely as confused as everyone else. Cleriths and Clotis are both groups that played the games, read the comments, the interviews, and everything, and which have both interpreted the story in their own way – Tifa-focussed, or Aerith-focussed. There’s nothing a ‘neutral’ party can say about that.
In the end, it’s personal preference. Facts are abundant, but remain vague and sometimes open to interpretation, and are always given a certain ‘strength’ based on the reader and the source of that fact. The amount of strength given to a creator saying ‘yeh cloti is cannon’ would be low in the eyes of a Clerith shipper, and vice-versa.
So yeah.
I agree, do the essay!
I’m too busy to even contemplate doing it myself 😀
First off Squall_of_Seed’s LTD essay isn’t “Pro-Cloti” ‘Shipping opinion. It follows the narrative of compilation, and comes up with a conclusion BASED on that; not opinion. The counter argument of “This won’t change anything” is stupid. It’s not meant to CHANGE anything. Compilation is what it is, and in it there IS a definitive answer. THIS just points it out with big neon signs for those too ‘ship-blind to see it. **sigh**
It’s also NOT and OP-ED piece. It’s compilation, creator statement, and fact. People seriously need to learn what an opinionated essay is versus what a factual reconstruction of a narrative is.
No one is kissing any ass (jealous much?), but there are plenty of thanks for the time taken to compile the FACTS into this essay form.
You all can put your lighters back in your pockets. For real.
It’s strange. This makes complete logical sense.
Almost as if it was intended that way by the creators.
Stop that blasphemy this instant >:(
Vendel, FFVII is just a game with a storyline that was only intended to be interpreted point for point. Nothing was intended by the creators. Everything was intended by the fans. It’s obviously more logical this way.
I agree with Quexi. Stop this nonsense! >:(
Stop the trolling! /lookwho’stalking
I agree with Quexi and I Am Not Me. Vendel is the one who constantly make nonsense comments but flaming people being nonsense.
Yes, the Clerii have come up with a multitude of so-called counter arguments.
Remember the made up Japanese people dining at WacDonalds making up shit like koi___bito being two words and not meaning what it does (unless it’s used in reference to Aeris)É
The rest fo them follow in a similar fashion.
OWD, You strike me as someone who would write articles for Destiny Failed. CloTis make up shit all the time, so don’t go and make all Cleriths look like lying wackjobs with no valid arguments.