[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
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oglop_master, that was a very well written post.
I kind of ship Tifa/Johnny now *lol*
Thank you. And writing/researching that kind of did make me like Tifa and Johnny, lol. I’d never really thought about it before.
Kinda hard to ship someone with another who has absolutely no damn interest in the other, isn’t it? For Christ’s sake, accept Cloud and Tifa’s feelings match and quit denying the creator’s reality. It’s pathetic.
You’d put Tifa with a loser she’s showed no interest in at all, rather than the guy she loves and has moved in with and is raising a family together. Will you please use common sense?
How the heck to you ignore the fact that Word of God says Cloud and Tifa’s romantic feelings match? The High Affection Highwind scene is THE CANON scene. Just like the ending of FFX-2 where Tidus comes back is the canon scene. Optional =/= No canon.
Vendel, on the use of ‘retard’ let me quote “Stepbrothers”: “Hey you don’t say that!”
Second, what is the age difference between Cloud and Denzel? I would much rather say Cloud and Tifa are like big brother/sister than parents, considering they would have had to have been quite young when Tifa gave birth. (and YES I KNOW that “parents” are being used in a figurative sense, but since you seem so hung up on that term, then let’s look at it.) Tifa says family, she never says ‘I feel like such a mother to these two children’. Family structure isn’t always parents and children, and unless Tifa and Cluod have a high maternal and paternal instinct, I doubt they would see themselves as parents. I still think oder brother/sister, or even guardians, are the best terms. I know that if I had to take care of my niece (or even an un-blood-related-child), I am so un-maternal that I would never think of myself as a parent.
Tifa introduces Marlene as her daughter. They adopted Denzel. It is descried as the family they (C&T) are/were forming. Why are you trying to downplay what they are doing?
People that say crap like “It’s Barret’s family” or “Cloud is like Tifa’s son” or even “C/T don’t really think of themselves as the mom and dad of that family”. Are people who at best are missing the big picture/point. And at worst are intentionally trying to downplay it to make it less important to Cloud.
oh and also don’t think I’m fighting with you, or anyone, and really, you shouldn’t get so upset over what other people think. There are much much more important things in life. For example, I’m here at home taking care of my mom, who is sick and on a ventilator. She is my number one priority. If FF7 was remade and it showed Cloud and Tifa having a tumble then yay, it’s just a game, if I still want to write my Cloud/Terra fics I will, and if I want to read Cloud/Seph fics I will, and not care what’s canon or not. Besides, *anything* not directly shown in a game is pretty much fanon. Even if it’s a Cloud/Tifa fan fic, if it’s about them going on a date to celebrate their anniversary or something, it’s still fanon because the creators never wrote/showed that.
This is exactly what I’m trying to say. Thank you.
^_^b
I would respond but I am not sure you made a point here at all Teresa.
Oh and leave your mom out of this. No one cares. And you make yourself look worse by bringing it up.
Vendel, you are a mean spirited little person. I pity you. I no longer intend to take part in this silly discussion. Go ahead and focus your life around *imaginary video game characters* because it seems that is all that is important in your life. If you cannot debate without resorting to calling people names, or insulting people, you are either 5 years old or very immature. Have fun in fantasy land!
Get over yourself Teresa.
If I am downplaying, then you are upplaying it (if that’s even a word? XD)
You are making the assumption that Tifa and Cloud = mother and father which =wife and husband/lovers.
But then again, I really don’t care. XD
Well, one thing that always bothers me is that how can C/A “shippers” so deny Zack. I mean, just watch the end of ACC. If Cloud hadn’t figured out Z/A relationship why should he be taking Zack’s Buster to Aerith’s church. And crap, even before that, Aerith and Zack come together into the light after reasuring Cloud that everthing is okay. They get their “happy after-life ending”, Cloud gets his by coming back to his family. End of story.
And someone has put up the debate as to why in DoC there is no CloTi moments and stuff. Of course there isn’t, it’s not their story. But face it, two young people live together and they there wouldn’t be anything between them? Hello! They are not monk and nun. 😉
But of course, that’s just mine interpretations. I can understand SE for not saying that canon is this or that. FFVII never was a romantic story as, say, FFVIII.
(sorry for any grammar errors. ;))
One thing that bothers me is when you say “But face it, two young people live together and they there wouldn’t be anything between them? Hello! They are not monk and nun.” Has it come down to that a woman and man cannot live together without being more than friends? Even if they did love each other physically in the past, if they were now just close friends, do we have to think they are jumping in bed with each other every night? I just think it’s a bit sad we have to think like this. If you ever played “Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume”, there are two characters–Natalia and Earnest–who most everyone thinks are lovers because they are so close. It is the main character who says something along the lines of “No, they are not lovers, but they have a friendship so pure that it shames me.” I would like to think that Tifa and Cloud are the kind of people that could be together and be as close as possible with one another, even if there was not a physical relationship.
Of course, of course, I don’t imagine them as some perverts or anything like that, but I just think realistically (how ironic that sounds in the debate about Final FANTASY :D). It just looks impossible, like this pairing you talk about not to even kiss or hug at times. Sounds like they are even afraid of any physical contact with each other.
But oh well, that “purity” sounds great too. 🙂
Cloud and Tifa begin living together because they disclosed their mutual romantic feelings under the Highwind. And yes SE has stated this plain as day (in the page you are posting comments on no less). C/T are canon Rasa.
So you can safely ignore Teresa. Because it is meaningless drivel. C/T are not just friends or roommates. They are a couple. End of story.
* is ignored*
Wow, I feel so ignored!
My only issue is that Tifa has expressed interest in Cloud on many an occasion (from the game, to ‘Do you love me?’ in CoT), whereas in your example there appears to be absolutely no romantic interest, even if it is one-sided. Furthermore, this page shows that there must have been some sort of mutual romance because it includes the romances that are reciprocal, whether that be with Squall and Rinoa, Cecil and Rosa, or whoever. If they wanted to, they COULD have added Eiko and Zidane or Squall and Quistis, even added in Rikku/Lulu/whoever you pick to like Tidus the most. But the fact was that they didn’t, and that tells me they weren’t trying to say ‘Cloud and Tifa are expressing their mutual desire to be friends’.
It says to me that they expressed their mutual romantic interest to one another.
Was the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania published before or after AC?
It was released in 2008, sooooo after AC.
Thank you for the info, I was wondering if they could have included AC pics in the book or not.
I assume they did not for the same reason they did not include the embrace at the end of perfect game X-2: they were mainly just including the game and not sequels to it.
–“You present a very good argument, but I cannot be convinced. Before reading Case of Tifa, I am fairly certain that I would have agreed with you, or at the least, I would not have debated this article. However, in CoT, Tifa ends up showing different feelings for Cloud than those of romantic love.”
I wouldn’t venture to dispute that Tifa has some kind of motherly feelings toward him, but that doesn’t necessarily indicate that they’ve overwritten the romantic feelings. Many a woman has had romantic feelings and motherly feelings toward the same person.
–“Cloud did not answer any of the things that she said about their relationship once he woke up.”
He was asleep when she asked. He simply didn’t hear her.
–“This is not correct. In his mind, the only thing that Johnny thinks about Denzel is It was Denzel, a young boy who was special to Johnny. He’s one of the people who respected Tifa.”
XComp made a mistake.
This is the line in Japanese, as taken from the AC Prologue book:
心の師ティファの家族
That’s literally “Of his heart mentor Tifa’s family.” Also, in the official English translation, it said, “Part of my heart mentor’s family.”
–“And also, it seems that in Dirge, Barret became a part of Tifa’s family as well.”
Why would you get that impression simply from them waging a military campaign together? Cid and Yuffie were involved as well.
In any case, the 10th Anniversary Ultimania specifically describes Cloud’s family as consisting of Tifa, Denzel and Marlene.
Barret’s part of the family, of course, but in much the same way that Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Red XIII and Reeve are. Extended familiy.
–“So the family is not just Tifa, Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel if Denzel is still living with them.”
But that *is* Cloud’s family, as described in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania’s description of the scene where Cloud awakens in the church at the end, with the other members of AVALANCHE present described as “his friends.”
–” I cannot be convinced”
I know this came at the beginning of your post, but I’m addressing it last because it’s just odd to me that even with a page like the one this article is about, you can’t be convinced. I just don’t see how it could get any more clear than that.
There’s literally nothing more that they could say or do, is there?
But, you did say this much: “Perhaps Tifa and Cloud were together romantically at one time ….” Which I suppose could have been influenced by the article?
If so, then I can live with us reaching that much of an agreement, I guess.
Tifa asked ‘Cloud, do you love me?’ while Cloud was asleep. However, he probably did hear her, which is why he ‘woke up with a perplexed look on his face’. It makes sense, though, since Tifa corrected herself with ‘Cloud, do you love Marlene?’ He did hear her when she said ‘Let’s work hard together from now on.’ and he did not respond to that.
I hardly know any Japanese, I don’t know any kana or kanji, and I don’t have the original Japanese copy, so I cannot comment on the translation. However, I do know that I have looked at multiple translations from different sources, as well as watched On the Way to a Smile in Japanese with English subtitles from both a fansubber and the official DVD translation and none of them translated them this way. Perhaps it is a mistake on all of them, but like I said, I cannot determine this for myself.
I must disagree with what you’ve said about Barret being just a friend with a relationship that is the same as that of the rest of the party. That is simply not true. Barret, Cloud, and Tifa are grouped together as the original AVALANCHE (VII, not BC) members who suffer the most of the party from Aeris’s death, share many of the same sorrows, and support each other and stick together. Barret went off on his own with full intention of coming back once he had resolved his past. In Dirge, Cid, Yuffie, and Reeve mostly hung out with Vincent on the airship, and Cloud, Barret, and Tifa were only shown very late in the game, where they appeared together in a truck on the way to Midgar. Barret is very much involved with that family, and that is immediate, not extended. Marlene is his adopted daughter who is under the joint care of Cloud, Barret, and Tifa. When talking about the party breaking up after VII (and Yuffie whining about how she wanted the Knights of the Rounds and all the mastered materia to sell, lol), everyone split off from the group, but the original trio, Cloud, Tifa, and Barret, stayed together. Barret cares deeply about Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene, but he has his own way of showing it, which he demonstrated all throughout VII.
This article really doesn’t mean much to me. It’s not some groundbreaking revelation that has just occurred to me, and I’ll only ever see it as the same vague not-quite-canon-but-we’ll-keep-hinting-to-keep-you-interested stuff that was in VII. My opinion hasn’t changed. Since reading CoT, I’ve always thought that Cloud and Tifa may have been together in a romantic relationship at one time, but not anymore. That’s just my opinion, though.
I’m not really trying to convince anyone. The love triangle is so ingrained into people’s minds that whatever they ship they will defend. The Cloud/Aeris fans are completely convinced that Cloud and Aeris are together even after death, and the Cloud/Tifa fans are the same. So the chances of getting anyone to change their opinions are slim to none. A compromise is the best I could hope for.
There you go again with the shipping thing. When two people are described with lines from the authors like “Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together.” it doesn’t take shipper logic to realize they want you to see them as a couple.
People like Tres or Vendel or anyone else here would argue the same way if you tried to say any of the other canon couples like Squall and Rinoa or Tidus and Yuna weren’t canon either. It’s about common sense and not butchering the story you can pretend things happened the way you wanted them to.
You may say you like Cloud and Tifa together, but if you really wanted it to be true over the idea that it’s all up to interpretation, you wouldn’t be ignoring all the straight forward evidence in front of you.
–“Tifa asked ‘Cloud, do you love me?’ while Cloud was asleep. However, he probably did hear her, which is why he ‘woke up with a perplexed look on his face’.”
I assumed he woke up with a perplexed look on his face because he’d been woken up by Tifa asking him a question. XD
In any event, Tifa definitely didn’t think he’d understood her, what with starting over with “Hey” and then asking a different question.
As for his perplexed look, I just took that as the same look of confusion anyone has when awoken. It doesn’t say it was a long awkward moment of silence in which he just stared at her or anything.
It could have been one second or five.
–“He did hear her when she said ‘Let’s work hard together from now on.’ and he did not respond to that.”
True enough. ‘Course, he was also driving down Depression Lane by that point, but moments such as that one can always be taken a number of ways.
–“I hardly know any Japanese, I don’t know any kana or kanji, and I don’t have the original Japanese copy, so I cannot comment on the translation. However, I do know that I have looked at multiple translations from different sources, as well as watched On the Way to a Smile in Japanese with English subtitles from both a fansubber and the official DVD translation and none of them translated them this way. Perhaps it is a mistake on all of them, but like I said, I cannot determine this for myself.”
As far as I know, there’s only two translations of Case of Denzel out there: XComp’s and the official English one that was included with the North American Limited Edition release of AC. Even the one on FFVII Citadel is XComp’s.
And, in XComp’s case, he made a mistake. I’m going to send him an e-mail about that, actually.
As for the Case of Denzel OVA, the line in question wouldn’t be there because this line was unspoken. It just occurred in Johnny’s thoughts — or possibly even just in the narrator’s commentary. Hard to tell sometimes with the way Nojima wrote those stories.
In any event, take that line I gave you and run it through popjisyo.com or something. Even wtihout any prior knowledge of Japanese, you can easily use an online tool like that to verify more simple lines like this.
–“I must disagree with what you’ve said about Barret being just a friend with a relationship that is the same as that of the rest of the party.”
While I agree that he’s closer than the rest of them, in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania’s scene-by-scene walkthrough of AC, when it gets to the part where Cloud wakes up in the church (pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition), it says the following:
“When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting.”
Here, Barret is grouped into “his friends,” while “his family” is listed as Tifa, Marlene and Denzel. That’s the only point I’m making: Cloud’s immediate family is those three.
–“This article really doesn’t mean much to me. It’s not some groundbreaking revelation that has just occurred to me, and I’ll only ever see it as the same vague not-quite-canon-but-we’ll-keep-hinting-to-keep-you-interested stuff that was in VII.”
Wouldn’t you agree, though, that the wording of the page’s heading is quite straightforward? Especially since the word it uses for love, after all, is “renai,” which specifically refers to romantic love.
–“A compromise is the best I could hope for.”
Fair enough.
PLEASE¡¡¡ stop it, it`s C/T Z/A
check this cloud`s alive, tifa`s alive and they live together like a family many people has said it, I really really don`t understand why many cleriths still are fighting for this IMPOSIBLE canon, aerith`s death and she`s with zack in the lifestream, they are together.
hey you cleriths: zack loves aerith and aerith loves zack, she waited for him four years, he fought to come back with her, why do you want destroy it? it`s the cutter love story. ;__ ;, the compilation show us that, cloud is with tifa in ac/acc, Doc. I think that somebody has seen the cloti stuff in LO ,CC and On the way to smile right? zack and aerith are IN LOVE in CC and in ACC they are together helping to Cloud.
cleriths just put your guns in the ground, there is nothing to do, cloti and zerith are OFFICIAL canons look at this:
ZACK
AERITH
CR
KI
T
H.
Thanks for this, you rock. =D
XOXO
Exactly. That’s what I’m thinking too. Pinkers always talk like there is no Zack’s existence at all. I don’t mind that someone prefer C/A, T/Z or whatever couple you can imagine, but to say that they are canon is a little stupid. Ok, we never really, I mean REALLY know if Cloud and Tifa finally have some romantic stuff going on after ACC or DoC, but that Zack and Aerith are together “happily ever after” (if you can call like that the life after death :D) in the Lifestream we can be sure. It’s just plain OBVIOUS.
And if someone still can’t see that, well, too bad for them.
-headdesk- -repeat- -repeat-
Those of you who say that Zack/Aeris is canon are ruining the debate. Even if you think that everything I’ve said is bull, there is no possible way you could prove that Zack/Aeris is canon. It has far, far less information to back it up than Cloud/Tifa does. I have respect for those of you who defend Cloud and Tifa with a good argument. I have little respect for those who defend it with a bad argument. -coughVendelcough- But those of you who go all weeaboo about Zack/Aeris, I have absolutely no respect for. The only thing you think about is ‘Cloud and Tifa is a sexy pairing and Zack and Aeris have hot Lifestream sex in a field of flowers.’ I’m serious. That’s the only reading I’m getting from you.
Oh, and read Lifestream White. Aeris talks about Cloud being her friend, her beloved — a symbol of what was important to her, and someone to be protected. Hmmm… Seems like she still has some feelings for Cloud, doesn’t she?
So no, Zack and Aeris do not have some crazy ‘happily ever after’ corpses floating around in the Lifestream crap. Don’t even try to defend that, because you’re just, to quote Vendel, showing everyone how much of a moron you are.
And to you Cloud/Aeris shippers, this is not canon proof that Cloud and Aeris have an ongoing relationship where Cloud tries to remember not to use any phoenix downs or curative magic and Aeris does her hardest not to keep her hands away from those lovely potions in Cloud’s inventory.
The ‘canon pairing’ card is void, and will stay that way no matter who you put Zack or Not Zack with.
At some point, they do date, so in that sense, they are a canon pairing.
Zack and Aerith were a couple in life. And they are reunited in death. Fulfilling Zack’s promise and Aerith’s wish.
Did the last two scenes in ACC mean absolutely nothing to you glopy poo?
And gloopy poo. Cloud and Tifa do not have to be defended. At all. The fact that you think it does proves once again your idiocy.
Are you two ever going to get along?
I hate people who have not played the original game and claim that they know everything about VII. Such as Vendel. That’s the worst kind of fan, and all those fans are loud, annoying, and complete weeaboos.
I met this girl once who liked VII, so I started talking to her about the game. She began going on about how hot Sephiroth was and how she loved VII so much, and I wondered aloud if she had played the original game. She said that someone she knew had it, and she could play it if she wanted, but (and I quote) “There isn’t enough of Sephiroth in VII.” We were at the mall, and she went to GameStop and she squealed loudly and bought Crisis Core. I asked if she cared about Cloud, Zack, the plot, anything but Sephiroth and her pairings with him. All she could do was squeal about Sephiroth and tell me that she hated all the other characters because they weren’t him.
This is the kind of attitude towards VII that people who haven’t played it and think they know about it have. When you play the game, your view of the characters and the story completely changes. What you saw in the other games/movies or read in the stories is seen under a radically different light. At the beginning of the game, I didn’t really like Tifa or Aeris, they were just characters that were plot-spawns to me that had to be there. By the time Aeris died, I hated her. I laughed. Reference my post involving Cait Sith. Slowly, my feelings for Tifa grew, and by the end of the game, I really loved Tifa. I thought that Sephiroth was just [insert villain here] from my experience of previous games, but he really developed a personality in the game, and I began to understand him more. This was emphasized even more by Crisis Core.
If you don’t play the game, you only get a tiny fraction of the concept. Even if you think you know everything that happens, you really don’t. You’re not even trying to get the full experience. And you shouldn’t be talking about it like you have. It’s just wrong and insulting to those who have actually played.
Cool story bro
Man, I’m really sorry to say, but you absolutely misread everything I wrote.
I’m in no way thought of them as ‘Cloud and Tifa is a sexy pairing and Zack and Aeris have hot Lifestream sex in a field of flowers.’ Don’t exaggerate things. 😉
But if you still believe that Cloud and Aerith can have something “going on” between them after the end of AC/ACC you are a dreamer or I don’t know.
“Did the last two scenes in ACC mean absolutely nothing to you glopy poo?” (I agree with that, except “glopy poo”). Doh, Vendel, please chill out a little!
I am not arguing that Cloud and Aeris is canon. I am arguing that Tifa and Cloud is not canon. There is a difference. There is no canon pairing in VII.
And Ven-chan. Please come up with more intelligent nicknames for me. Here’s an idea. Play VII, and then once you’re finished, play IX. It’s a good game and you’ll understand my username. Until then, you could:
a. look it up
b. play IX
c. come up with a better nickname
d. play VII already
I think that by this time, everyone just thinks you’re an fool, Ven. People think I’m one too, but at least I can back myself up instead of just running and hiding every time anyone mentions the original game.
Also, I won’t even try to debate with you about Zack and Aeris. I know that I’m right because there is no canon information and you are therefore just defending my argument. Of course, if you say something that needs to be corrected, I will correct it because I’m the only one who’s willing to.
This may just be me, but I’d prefer it if both of you stopped suggesting the other hasn’t played the game. That, and finding new and less-than-humorous ways of insulting one another.
Anyway, it’s quite obvious that both of you have played the damn game. Is there nothing you two can agree on?
Oh, and CxT is canon. /cheeky bastard
I don’t think Ven-chan has suggested that I haven’t played the game. Or maybe my memory is bad. I think that was Ryu. But whatever. I hate insult battles, but I hate people like that even more. And I’m willing to bet that Vendel won’t reply to my post.
Oh, and VII still has no canon pairing.
Your flagrant ignoring of the creator commentary is why everyone here insults you and makes you look like the ass you are.
Not to mention your sickening hypocrisy in stating you hate “insult battles” but then descrying anyone who dares call you out on your blatant lies and manipulations as “weeaboos.”
Your rejection of reality is hilarious. If FFVII has no canon pairing, then it’s pretty damn funny that the creators would state that Cloud and Tifa’s feelings match on a page about romantic love in Final Fantasy. Stop looking at pictures like a kindergartner. Just because there’s a picture of Aerith and Cloud on a date, doesn’t change the fact that contextually, all the creators said was that their date was optional.
Fucking face reality and move on. You’re an eyesore.
Tsk. Sorry, hon. I hate Aeris. If you had read any of my posts, you’d know that. Perhaps a little bit of kindergarten logic would help you figure that one out.
No, kindergarten logic is what YOU excel at, and I have no interest in stealing your thunder, or dumbing myself down to your level.
You can try to give yourself an aura of impartiality all you like, but anyone with half a braincell can see that you are the manifestation of the “Die For Our Ship” trope in regards to Cloud and Aerith. I don’t give a damn what nonsense you say about you “hating” Aerith.
The best you can do is try to strawman and give yourself a fleeting mask of credibility and impartiality, while systemically ignoring the fact that Word of God has stated that Cloud and Tifa’s romantic feelings match. Are you that obtuse in the head that you seriously want to try arguing what’s in the damn Ultimania?
Ah, the word of god. As invisible and elusive as your so-called canon pairing. Must I prove to you that I don’t like Aeris in a court of law before you’ll believe me? I would have previously, no, I think I did say previously, that Cloud/Aeris shippers are typically even more idiotic than Cloud/Tifa shippers, but now I am questioning that thought.
I don’t give a damn what you say. You can scream you hate Aerith for all I care, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re a diehard shipper ignoring canon evidence.
The Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania states definitively that Cloud and Tifa’s romantic feelings match, putting them on par with Squall and Rinoa, and Tidus and Yuna. Tres has been kind enough to show you the translation and the Japanese text yourself, to have translated if you feel its inaccurate. You have not given one ounce of proof to the contrary. You are talking nonsense.
Again, I don’t give a damn what shit you try to say to give yourself a mask of impartiality. You are arguing futilely and making a fool out of yourself. This quote, compounded with all of the contextual and narrative evidence has ended the LTD. Anyone who still questions if Cloud and Tifa are together are either ignorant of the Compilation and its extent materials, a moron who can’t understand fiction, or just a stubborn fool. You somehow seem to be of the latter camp. I don’t know what else to call you when you systemically ignore everything that challenges your initial world view, and then insult anyone who has the audacity to call you out on your bullshit and dishonesty.
Really, dear. The only diehard is you. Perhaps you should rethink your motives?
My motives are the correct, and factual interpretation of the scans and materials written by the creators. What are yours?
I’m a diehard of canon. I won’t make any attempt at hiding it. I’ll again ask you to either concede the point or put up the evidence that there is no canon pairing in FFVII, when this Ultimania says otherwise. Please explain your rejection of reality. We’re all ears.
Please refer to my earlier posts as my argument. And I simply must beg to differ at your claim that you defend the canon. You could say whatever you please about who you fight for. Personally, I defend the truth, especially when stating my own opinions. Mayhaps you would do well to follow that example?
If you defended the truth, you wouldn’t be trying so vehemently to say that there is no pairing in FFVII WHEN the TEXT of the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania states otherwise.
Ms. Ad Hominem, do you care to actually refute the point, and stop squawking your inane, and meaningless opinions? No one gives a shit what you think. Either debate the truth which you so pompously declare to defend, or kindly get the hell out. You’re seriously just shitting on the comment section now, with your repeated rejection of reality and what the text itself says clearly.
Oh, dear. Someone didn’t read my posts. Also, refer to freedom of speech.
You have no freedom of speech here. This is a privately owned webspace, you moron. Are you daft? I could ban your ass right now, and who are you gonna call? The E-Police? Get a clue.
You said before, that “it’ll come down to the hard, gritty facts that are so prevalent in VII” and you challenged your dissenters to “suck it up and start formulating a decent argument.”
So let’s hear yours. You called out everyone else. Don’t tell me you can’t take what you dish out. Form your decent argument and tell us why FFVII has no canon couple when the goddamn text on the page says otherwise. Either muster the testicular fortitude to rise up to your own challenge or get the fuck out of here, you uninteresting Clerith troll.
I like how someone can make a statement “there is no canon pairing in FFVII” in the comments section of an article about canon pairings. Then has the unmitigated gall to call me out for anything.
That would be the point. Am I just supposed to say it randomly, Mr. I-haven’t-played-the-game-and-I’ll-imply-it-too? Perhaps I should put it in my signature on a forum, or on a thread about how much we all love talking about VII when we haven’t played it. Then I can get the word out to you.
When you make a valid point glop let me know.
When you’ve played the game, let me know.
hey¡¡¡ oglop_master, please stop it? how can you say that C/T Z/A are not canons, havve you read all the articles an d notes about this issue here?
didi you check the profiles that Mako posted?
did yopu check what Squall_of_SeeD wrote about it?
did you read this article?
…or you were too busy playing the game?
XOXO.
Yay!
Well… that’s all I wanted to say.
That and YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!! <3
Well from what I can tell from the the Compilation of FF7, Kingdom Hearts, FF Tactics, FF Dissidia, and what SE has said I find this questionable.
-sigh- You people… I am truly tired of this discussion. If you haven’t realised, I’ve been pretty much single-handedly carrying out this discussion for, mmmm, I don’t know, four weeks or so? If you’re so damn serious about your pairings, you should probably just put your name on a fanlisting and leave it at that. All you can do is flame my posts and I hate flaming back. I now have a bunch of weeaboos after me, and I’m tired of hearing you squeal. For crying out loud, do any of you care about playing the freaking game, or is Advent Children all that matters to you? Just keep on flaming me, because one day you’ll think back and wonder why in the world you did this. Or maybe not. I know some weeaboos that are even older than I am and will continue to be like that for the rest of their lives. But seriously? Just go talk to a wall because I’m sick of arguing with people who can’t see past their own ego.
I still find it funny that someone who can get so many basic facts wrong over the course of this discussion can accuse anyone of anything.
-face-palm- How did I know that Mr. OH-MAH-GODS-IT’S-CLOUD-AND-TIFA-*SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE* would respond first…?
Anyone who’s argument is basically decrying their opponents as “weeaboos” has not only failed the argument, but failed at life as well. Your nonsensical posts and postulations as to how Cloud and Aerith are a couple, even though the Ultimania text says in black and white that Cloud and Tifa’s feelings match, makes you a waste of space here. You are basically spamming the comments with your rubbish.
Your dishonest debate tactics and bullshit bring about the flames and insults that you have received. Plugging your ears like the Vancome Lady from Mad TV and going “LALALALALA CLOUD AERITH FOREVER” makes you an annoyance.
If you would like to ban me, I implore you to do so. It would calm your enraged mind.
As I said, please refer to my earlier posts. You are typical, and I can predict everything you will say before you type it. If you are simply too lazy to read said posts, then there is no point in composing another which states the same thing that you will not read either. While you’re waiting for a response that will never come, perhaps you should become interested in something else for a change. VII should not be your life. That is simply narrow-minded.
You are just SO awesome! God, you can predict what I say, really? You’re just too cool for school.
I haven’t banned you yet because I want it to be shown that you were called out 4 different times to meet your own demand of forming a coherent argument, and instead of actually manning up and doing it, you’ve just continued to spam like a moron, and show without a doubt that you are nothing more than a Clerith troll who only can validate their existence by fighting for their ship, and ignoring reality.
In case you haven’t noticed, I am happily indulging in my interest, which is the dissemination of the facts and knowledge regarding FFVII. This is the purpose of this site. Perhaps it is *you* who should find another hobby, other than trolling the internets, to defend your sinking ship of fail. For someone who says FFVII shouldn’t be “your life” you sure spent a helluva lot of time (four weeks by your own admission) here posting bullshit to defend your stupid pink ship. I’ve only rolled in here once a member of our site called a shitstain like you to my attention.
This here is OUR territory, and I’m one of the admins here, numbnuts. If you don’t like the fact no one buys your bullshit, click the little X at the top right corner of your browser, and get. The. Fuck. Out. You’ve been called out, and your testicles have fallen off.
Ah, love. You seem to have denied my entire personality. If you really feel the need to ban me, do so. I can’t say I mind. But really. I don’t suppose you understand me at all. You sound like a wannabe gang leader when you speak of ‘our territory’. I have simply been correcting incorrect facts that you enjoy dropping on a regular basis. And that first little tidbit made me wonder about your age. Is it eleven? Twelve? Are you out of middle school yet? Please inform me, because I’d really love to know.
Oh, and once again, please refer to my earlier posts.
I don’t give a damn about your personality. It’s utterly shallow, pedantic, and annoying. Your use of terms of endearment make you look like some stupid, stuck up bitch. I don’t understand you, nor do I want to. My age is irrelevant, but I can assure you that in terms of maturity, I’m definitely you’re senior.
What I do want, however is for you to either start up a debate using facts, or concede and get the hell out. You’ve turned the already farcical Clerith camp into something that should now be pitied and mocked. And I’m growing bored with you. As I said. Keep it up, and you’re out of here. I will not hide the fact that I dislike you, and wish for you to cease stinking up the site I’m admining.
Oh, do you get it now? I think Mako has figured something out.
And no, I certainly do not sniff glue. Hetalia must be role-played with a clear mind, especially when you are a dignified country such as Austria.
I could care less about the Cloud/Aeris fandom, or the Cloud/Tifa fandom. Just by the way. My alliance is with neither. And I’m not stupid like ZeroX (FF Wiki) and will be quick to hate a character because of the fans.
Please demonstrate the awesome power of the Cloud/Tifa shippers by banning me, such as you threaten.
Also, I think that if you’re claiming to be my senior, especially mentally, you should probably study the English language a bit more. ‘I am you are senior.’ does not sound very coherent. In fact, it seems to applaud me more than it does you. I am now seriously wondering about your age as well, due to that statement.
Wow, you caught a typo on the internet. You must be a pro! At least my errors only manifest themselves in typos, not in actual understanding of basic literary and romantic tropes. Because two people living together in the same house, raising a family, are sooo not together, amirite?
You’re such a tool, it’s hilarious. If the best you got is pointing out typos, you need to go back to fapping to Hetalia yaoi and leave the debate to the big boys and girls. You’re pathetic.
Oh, that’s just plain nasty. I’m sorry if the fact that the Austria/Hungary that I was role playing was a straight pairing escapes you, and also, that is disgusting. The only ones doing anything like that are the screaming Cloud/Tifa fans on this site who sit at home and read poorly-written fanfic for the sex, or the Cloud/Sephiroth squealers who do the same. If history is unknown to you, you should probably study some more.
Seriously. Everyone assumes so much.
…You really think I meant that literally, and that I knew what fucking Hetalia pairing you were roleplaying? Get over yourself, please. I couldn’t careless that you roleplay Austria/Hungary. God, you’re thicker than Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man.
It’s not a unreasonable assumption to make that you’ve outlived whatever glimmer of amusement you may have had before, and that you’re now just a batshit insane troll who talks the talk yet can’t walk the walk in terms of debate. Goodbye.
You do realize you mentioned nothing about what pairing you were RPing before this?
And that most Hetalia shipping is Yaoi?
And that being familiar with Hetalia characters and history are completely and utterly unrelated topics in both directions?
And then again with the Ad Hominems you so love to complain about other people using…
Seriously, kiddo, favors, you are not doing yourself a damn one.
Tsk… It’s people like oglop that actually give a bad reputation to the FF7 fanbase. With all due respect, before accusing anyone of not playing the game, try to get some of your own game references straight first and actually post factual evidence (citations from the Ultimanias, interviews, etc) to back up your opinions like those who you are trying to argue against did. I mean, seriously…
Ah, it’s people like me, huh? Because I’m the one who’s flaming one person along with three to four others because they’re too scared do it alone and I like the feeling of power. Because I’m the one who can actually think of the game unbiased from pairings. Because I’m the one who sees the article and says ‘Oh mah gods it says Tifa and Cloud on the same page meaning that the pairing must be canon! *SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE* Let’s post and entire freaking article about it and flame anyone who even dares to state their own opinion! That’s a great idea!’
Yeah, it’s definitely me. Mmmhmm.
Yes people like you glop.
Someone who can get basic facts wrong and lashes out at others when called on this. Someone who can look at a page about the canon couples of the FF series up to #10 and says “this doesn’t mean anything”.
Someone who claims they don’t care about this discussion. Yet post about it over and over and over again.
I love how Oglop thought people gave a shit what she had to say, especially regarding Hetalia. Lulz.
Also, the Akismet spam function on WordPress is truly a wonderful add-on for any weblog. I personally love how a spammer thinks they’re posting and that their comments are being seen, when in actuality no one sees it at all. Oh, the irony.
oh fuck, I’ve found the problem.
Glop’s a Hetalia fan.
So, I’ve been watching these scuffles with generic disdain- you people get sent into my inbox, natch- and I have to say, for someone who says you can predict responses, you’re actually the predictable one. Your evasions, your accusations of bias and never playing games, your complaints about flames when you yourself are flaming, hell, even your ‘I know exactly what you’re going to say’ is ticking stereotypical check marks. In short, you’re getting boring, kiddo. Could you at least make things more interesting so your daily leavings into my inbox are at least somewhat amusing to look at?
-sigh- I could say the same to you.
You could, Susan, but it would be as utterly meaningless as all your other ad hominems and evasions and not making actual arguments and general trollery.
Seriously, jokes, snappy comebacks. Something with at least the tiniest soul of wit. Is it so hard to at least be an amusing troll?
I don’t really feel like it today. To tell the truth. I feel truly apathetic. -waves hand dismissively-
I know how much you’ll love that.
You say you’re apathetic, but you’ve responded to all these posts within mere minutes. Hell, you’ve been posting at this single article for four weeks.
Pull the other one. It’s got bells on.
Come on, come to my fooorrruuuummm I need more Clerith debaters. Just give it a try huh?
I’ve been role playing Austria, so I’m really just here out of boredom. That’s where the stuffed-talk came from. … Not that you’d get that or anything. Try liking something other than VII. Then you might understand, He-Who-Believeth-Not-in-Square.
I think I’d rather shoot myself in the foot than enjoy that blatantly biased WWII anthro show. For fuck’s sake, look at what they did to South Korea.
I’m still just sitting here absolutely baffled at the fact that apparently Square isn’t a reliable source to some people anymore.
They have stated CxT is a couple in this, and STILL people deny it. People who once said “I’d accept an Ultimania statement as proof” now don’t? I mean really people what the hell? What do you need?
Unbelievable.
Oooh, now I have three of them after me. Intriguing.
Working on banning me yet? This is quite fun!
That actually wasn’t directed at you. I haven’t even been paying attention to what’s been going on here. =P
In fact I want you to come to my forum and share your views there. The Cleriths there need help, they’re few in numbers.
Mmmm… None of you seem to believe me… I bet even the elusive Mr. FFVIII doesn’t… I suppose I’m just not very convincing…
Believe you when you say what?
Dude really I have no idea what’s going on here XD
Just take it easy, relax, no one is after you.
No one believes me in the shipping of pairings. Everyone seems to think I like Cloud and Aeris.
I hate Roxas but I ship AkuRoku like no tomorrow so w/e
Mmmm, I see. But I don’t like either Aeris or that pairing. And you still don’t believe me. I wonder.
i never said I didn’t believe you. If you say you hate Aerith I believe you… just take it easy.
Oh, I will. I’m just kind of tired and not thinking much right now.
‘After you?’ Susan, you came into our territory to cause a stink. If we were after you, or seriously wanted you gone, you’d be gone. Hell, you might be, if Mako decides you need flushing, but that hardly means that anyone is ‘after you’, much less multiple people.
Hell, Quex wasn’t even talking about you, though that you thought she was might be enough for an unwitting admission.
Who is Susan? I’ve been wondering.
Haha, there we go again with the geek-gangs. That sounds like fun. An all out battle between Tifa and Aeris to the death- oh, wait… Hee hee.
You, Susan, are Susan. Thus I have decreed and so shall it be.
Also, your utter non sequitur fails to be either relevant or amusing. Please, feel free to try again.
Are you claiming to be god, Tim? By the way, I’m looking forward to seeing you at Animazement. That’ll be fun! 🙂
God you’re a fucking idiot. Do you sniff glue inbetween roleplaying Hetalia, or what?
i can’t seem to reply but
hey you know Ryu? Take lots of pics of him 😛
Oh, just search for his username and he comes up. Plus, his account on the forum confirms that. I just happen to live really close to him, and I’ll be going to the same convention as he is, so if I haven’t seen him before, I’ll probably see him there. Maybe I’ll watch his DA. … But I guess it’s not really worth it.
watch his what?
I have a better claim to the title than most others. At least I exist.
As for Animazement and my first name, am I supposed to be shocked or amazed at shit a basic google check and find? Hell, I’m probably one of the most open people on the interbuttz regarding who I actually am.
And Quex, DeviantArt, I’m sure. Not that I’ve DONE anything with one in what, five-ish years now?
Yeah, I noticed. Pokemon pixel art dating pretty far back. That’s why I said I wasn’t going to watch it. And I wouldn’t have explained that if I had actually wanted to make myself out to be a stalker. I’m not stupid, although you seem to be pretty intent on saying that I am. I was simply combating your ‘Susan’ with a more reasonable argument.
Oh, by the way, I probably won’t respond until tomorrow now. I’m getting off the computer. Just so you know. Have fun with your pairings, kiddies! Just keep on yelling.
If you were trying to combat my nicknaming you Susan with something more reasonable, I have to say, you failed rather utterly at it.
What the fuck, people?
Good times eh SoS?
You guys need to read the characters profile in the Final Fantasy VII Advent Children Reunion Files especially Rude’s profile page 38 it says Cloud’s rival and since Cloud and the Turks are helping each other during the movie that can only mean one thing (Tifa) if Cloud and Tifa are not a couple during Advent Children then why they will put this in the character profile.
Fee, that statement by the voice actor refers to the original FF7, not the movie. And, if I’m not misreading the Japanese, to the turks as a whole, not just Rude.
Not that Rude being a rival to Cloud means Cloud and Tifa aren’t a couple. For one, nary a damn thing on that page mentions ‘love rival’, just ‘rival’, which Rude and the rest of the Turks are.
Spoken like a true Master. Thanks for that clarification. Don’t you just love intellectual dishonesty? Context sure does go a long way, eh, Fee?
Yeah because Reno, Rude, and the rest of the Turks weren’t antagonists and rivals of Cloud in FFVII. Let’s all follow the quote which served as an intro to AC, rather than the Reunion Files quote which calls Tifa a lover of Cloud. That makes perfect sense.
And call me cynical, but you got a scan or translation of where it says that? I’m just dying to see.
It seems you don’t know anything about the reunion files it talks about advent children not the game and i know its in the voice actor notes but he didn’t mention any thing in this part about the game here a link for the scan of the page
http://www.imgdump.info/data/media/76/040.jpg
Fee, the voice actor had just gotten done talking about their role in FF7, and how they are not just normal villians, but have a job to do and get done, but also how they (or he, if you must insist he’s suddenly started talking only about rude, even though there’s nothing in the japanese to indicate he’d stopped talking about the turks as a whole) are a goofy rival to Cloud. Not a romantic rival, but a goofy one. In the new movie, while goofy, they don’t act as rivals to Cloud.
In any case, there is still nothing saying the rivalry is romantic in the slightest. So this argument is still a complete non starter.
To add to what Ryu said, if it were talking about him as a love rival, it would *say* “love rival.” There are a couple of ways to say this in Japanese, and both make the meaning absolutely clear:
1. 恋敵
2. 恋のライバル
You’ll notice on the scan in question that it only says のライバル (“rival”) — and, as Ryu said, while talking about the Turks as a whole, and their role in the original game.
Not to mention that for Rude to even have the slightest chance at being Cloud’s love rival, he’d need to have some kind of interaction with Tifa or be in a position to *attempt* to woo her. Which he isn’t.
For that matter, this would be an argument that would defeat itself in the first place given that calling Rude a rival to Cloud for Tifa’s affections would mean that *Cloud wants Tifa’s affections*.
Rude is Cloud’s rival for Tifa? Is that what you are seriously suggesting?
Chalk this up as one of the crackiest of crack theories out there.
Honestly how much crazy BS will people come up with to not see the obvious right in front of them?
“Q. Why don’t you add this piece of information I got from Ultimania?
A. For those not in the know, Ultimania is a set of guides released by Squaresoft/Square Enix itself. Though this might seem to make it definitive and official, I’ve seen too many inaccuracies and contradictions in the information from there. Unfortunately, I can only use information directly from game manuals or the game itself in my coverage, to ensure that only absolute facts are presented here. ”
from: http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/about.shtml
… 1. What part of new overrides old do they not get.
2. MANUALS? ACCURATE? It is to laugh.
Seriously, though, the FF compendium doesn’t like the S-E made and released Ultimanias. It does not make them less official.
Incidentally, this is one subject on which the ultimanias HAVE NOT been contradictory, having said roughyl the same thing regarding this scene at least eight times, sometimes with more information, sometimes with less. This is merely the most recent and explicit regarding the fact that it was renai, romantic love.
Wow that site is shit.
“[AC] Tifa has spent the past two years in Edge, the city formed slightly outside of Midgar after it was demolished by Meteor. She and Cloud run an orphanage for those whose homes were destroyed by Meteor. ”
“[AC] Marlene has grown quite a bit, and lives with Tifa, helping the orphans. ”
“[AC] Since the Meteor incident two years ago, Cloud steadily separated himself from his friends, up to the point where he hasn’t seen any of them for two years. No doubt his guilt over his action (or inaction) over the death of Aerith (for whom he obviously still carries a torch) has caused his estrangement,. ”
“[FF7] The mysterious and happy-go-lucky daughter of a Cetra and a human seems almost too good to be true for Cloud”
Thank you Clover for bringing this shit site to our attention. That way no one can ever be fooled into thinking it is an actual source.
Nice to have everything resolved even if the Highwind bit is more than kinda unbelievable (I mean, they hadn’t even made out or really even kissed before this).I kinda guessed that Aerith was going to remain single in this case (Being dead can complicate things, hallucinations or not).
Now on to Zack’s LTD.*Evil grin* Cissnei or Aerith? (Being dead may once again complicate things)
Cissnei was never in the picture. Zack and Aerith were a real couple.
Also what is so strange about two people who have finally after years confessed their love for each other on the eve of the end of the world getting it on?
So youre saying other than a cloti youre a zack_x_aerith or zaerith(is that what you call it?) too?
Don’t label me with those shippers terms. I am only interested in canon.
I don’t put blinders on.
fine.
Oh come on! Why’d you get rid of oglop_master? That was the only reason I even bother coming to this website anymore, and you kicked her off because you knew you were wrong and couldn’t admit it! And really. Just liking Hetalia makes her a yaoi fangirl? Really? I love that anime to death, and yaoi sickens me.
I’m just going to say that VII has no canon pairing and you little obsessive shippers need to suck it up, and move on with your sad little lives. I love Cloud/Tifa, but I don’t believe it to be canon, nor do I flame anyone who disagrees with me, though I am here, because you people are really just hopeless. I don’t like Cloud/Aerith at all. Aerith was a useless pink creature that I would have stabbed too, if I were Sephiroth.
Flame away, bitches. I’m not responding to your unintelligent responses.
Nice to see you again glop. Good to know you are still a moron.
Awww. I knew you’d reply~
I’m not oglop, actually. Just a fan.
Whose IP traces back to the same city as Oggy’s. Just a fan, huh?
In any case, if you’re going to insist on spamming up the frontpage instead of dealing with the actual forum, please, do try and be interesting.
Incidentally, we never banned Oggy. She’s still active on the forum. So if she wishes to ACTUALLY discuss this, she is free to do so. On the forums.
congratz gaiz on having a post made in January still get traffic in March. :B
..yeaH..finally over!!!..
..super happy about the truth..i mean, i already knew it was Cloud and Tifa..
..this post made me super happy..^_^
..CloTi 4ever..
..and ZackxAerith 4ever also..
^_^