[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:
—“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
—Reflections on the LTD, by June]
Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.
Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’
The header to this section reads
Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.
First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads
Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.
As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads
The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.
Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.
One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.
UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.
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I’m always been a cloti fan in search of the truth, but just to help others who wanted to know facts. The first time I saw Tifa (I was like 8-9 years old) I thought she was Cloud’s girlfriend… So for me the debate has never existed. And I always thought Zerith was canon. When I read ‘Maiden’ I couldn’t believe Aerith was so cold to him, besides she wears his ribbon and the pink clothes, but she’s in love with Cloud? and Cloud’s atracction for her it’s because his inner-Zack. I think…
BTW: someone knows the name of the official book were in the cover appears Sephiroth alone and the book is in Japanese AND English? there nomura (or nojima..) said: “Tifa and Cloud must end up together and living in Nibelheim.” That’s the reason they are living in Edge, because: “two years was too short time to forget all that happened there”
If someone knows the name of the book, please…
That would be reunion files, and the quote doesn’t mention Nibelheim, just that they’d be together.
lmao woww now you’re just grasping at straws 😀 and you missed translated the japanese of the last one…it’s showing ALL possible romances… look at the scene of cloud and aeris too, and terra and leo. sheesh lol pay attention when you’re going to try to throw your ‘facts’ at someone.
why is it that FF8 (only made a year later) -FF10 there’s some form of cut scene of the lovers kissing, hugging, embracing? They could’ve easily made that sitting scene between Tifa and Cloud an actual hug scene (which it was not, btw. they were sitting side by side and tifa leans into cloud. ) orrr you know in Advent Children, actually have cloud embrace Tifa or kiss her.
But he doesn’t. He doesn’t ever embrace anyone, or kiss anyone. Yet all the other ‘canon’ pairings you are refering too either had a scene in the game which were strong vows of love between the two (cloud NEVER says he loves tifa or aeris) or they had a cut scene.
FF7 did not.
so you are right, the war is over. The ruling ? THERE IS NO CANON PAIRING lol stop trying to draw conclusions from stuff that doesn’t exist. case closed.
and you missed translated the japanese
You screwed up your english. HOW did Tres screw up his japanese?
it’s showing ALL possible romances…
No, it’s showing times when people reveal their romantic feelings for each other.
look at the scene of cloud and aeris too,
The one where it says you can get one of four people depending on how you act?
and terra and leo
The one that’s not on the page at all, you mean?
As for ‘needs a major cutscene’, The previous FFs didn’t need such, and we’re being told that the highwind scene IS a scene of confirming such a feelings. Add to that its dialogue being risque, and you’ve got something you can’t show in a T rated game.
war is over
War? What war? Get over yourself, Ms ‘[email protected]’ This is no war. It’s barely pest control.
We have more than enough evidence to conclude the canon. Have for ages. This is simply explicitly telling us that Cloud and Tifa were a couple before the end of their game.
And stop drawing conclusions from stuff that doesn’t exist might sound like a killer comeback, but let me point out- this page does exist. The evidence does exist. There’s a side of this dispute known for grasping at straws and using what does not exist, and I am not part of it. You are though, Ms ‘It shows Terra and Leo’
lmao got much time on your hands princess? like i’m going to put my actual email address so whiny 2 year olds like you can whine that i’m right.
terra scene where leo dies IS on that page,
and she translated the wrong hiragana it says ‘daisuke’ when describing cloud and tifa in that last panel not ‘ashteru’ daisuke is love between friends. lmao if you actually studied japanese you’d see that.
the previous ones had actual LOVE share between the characters where they voiced it. FF7 didn’t. Even in AC where they had the opperunity to make an embrace or kiss scene between cloud and tifa… they didn’t! And yet…aeris was a bigger role, and a bigger reason for cloud in that whole movie then tifa hmmm.. lmao
Nomura stated there was ‘no’ canon pairing in one of the books released after Advent children came out. it’s in japanese…but your sources can’t even translate correctly so i don’t expect you to even see that lol.
so funny, trying to throw facts at people who already knew it was over along time ago when he said ‘no’ canon pairing.
get over yourself, ff7 doesn’t have canon pairings, cloud just doesn’t ‘love’ that way, i’d think by you playing the game, you would’ve saw that.
Why would they confirm cloudxtifa when u could CHOOSE who to have a special time with and also have aeris a major part of cloud’s life. where cloud shared special moments with Aeris too, that sitting under the highwind scene…guess what? cloud and aeris had one too, only in the playground lmao.
and also you mis translated the hiragana there spy bot, it says they confirm their feelings with the word ‘daisuke’ not ‘ashteru’ lol daisuke means i love you, but to a friend.
so all that scene is saying is they shared their feelings together as close friends, it doesn’t say anywhere it’s lovers.
Nomura already stated there’s ‘no’ canon pairing, just go with that. stop making up stuff and you may want to get better translators if someone like me who’s been studying japanese for a year can pick out that one major mistake. lmao which btw, burns a hole into everything you just said 😀
Is you stupid or is you just high?
take a game for a game, not something u need to nit pick ha ha 13 years later and cloti and cleris still rage on.
so rage my friend, i’ll watch from the sidelines and laugh
Rage? I’m not the one spamming the front page with mini-essays.
Then trying to hide the fact that you are a coward and wont go into the forum for this debate.
You’re pathetic.
Vendel, are you incredibly stupid or just high?
Joke. Peace.
I know that line. it was used on one of the episodes of South Park.
Vendel, Are you incredibly stupid or just high?
joke. peace.
I know that line. it was used in one of the episodes of South Park.
Dear butthurt troll- When you try to correct someone’s translations, It helps to not A: Lie blatantly, or B: get the japanese so utterly wrong yourself.
Daisuke… Hah! Seriously, you’re not ‘neutral’ and you know it.
For the record, Tres is male.
Daisuke? And here I had assumed Digimon characters had nothing to do with Final Fantasy! How wrong I was!
I believe you mean 大好き, daisuKI. KI. Not KE. now perhaps you had a different Japanese teacher than I, but altering the last kana can either radically change the meaning or make it not a word at all, or in your case, it makes your alleged translation into a Japanese boy’s name.
Also, nowhere to be seen is either ‘daisuke’ (daisuki) or ‘aishiteiru’. They just discuss their feelings, and they match, so claiming on seeing either of those words is just… incorrect. I’d dig up the exact kanji and kana used, but the page is right there if you just scroll up, so there you go.
Thank you, Aki. This is exactly what I’m trying to point out. It all really comes down to what you ship, and people are so set on proving their pairing that they will completely ignore what is actually said. I mean, really. The article presents a good point, but it’s not like it’s anything more than an argument defending what someone ships.
… And then you begin to read the comments. And it just sounds like pitiful fans trying desperately to prove that what they want is canon. The solid reasoning is coming from the ones who disagree, and the opinions are coming from the ones who agree with the article. Hmmm. I wonder why.
It’s really quite interesting to observe how people are so easy to hate you when you begin to show them that the truth is different that what they want it to be.
But the war is not over. Those who must defend their pairings will continue to defend them until there is no one left who plays FFVII. It is obvious that there is no canon pairing, that is certain. The war should be over. Debates instead should change to what people ship and why. But no. So it will continue. And those who think that their pairings are canon will continue to flame anyone who dares disagree.
I challenge anyone who agrees that any pairing, Cloud/Tifa, Cloud/Aeris, Cloud/Yuffie, or even Barret/Cloud, Zack/Cloud, Sephiroth/Cloud, or something else, to prove that it is canon. To come up with at least twenty good reasons, implying nothing, free of opinion, and having to do with the canon. Not the fanon. Not what the directors say (unless it’s a direct quote from one of the writers or something that says ‘Cloud/_____ is absolutely canon.’ or something of the sort), something from the story. That is spoken or physically conducted. If those are there, then maybe, maybe you’ll convince someone. But they’re not. So keep looking. Because you won’t find them.
Stop sniffing glue.
ROFL, you had more patience than I to read everything. XD
and also you mis translated the hiragana there spy bot, it says they confirm their feelings with the word ‘daisuke’ not ‘ashteru’ lol daisuke means i love you, but to a friend.
so all that scene is saying is they shared their feelings together as close friends, it doesn’t say anywhere it’s lovers.
annnd it shows aeris and cloud together on the same page you say for ‘evidence’. Nomura already stated there’s ‘no’ canon pairing, just go with that. stop making up stuff and you may want to get better translators if someone like me who’s been studying japanese for a year can pick out that one major mistake. lmao which btw, burns a hole into everything you just said 😀
sorry i find this all amusing that you’re still doing shipping wars 13 years later..come on do you not have better things to do?
give it up, just leave it alone. ff7 doesn’t need to be continually disected by you people who can’t live a life and take a game for a game.
but i had to point out your ‘translator’ was wrong on one key word that made your whole argument possible.
lol this isn’t very good evidence, it’s just grasping at straws and i laughed so hard when i read how ’emotional’ you wrote this like ‘ZOMG LOOK GUYS I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG I’M A CLOTI SHIPPER AND OF COURSE I’LL FIND EVIDENCE FOR IT NO MATTER WHAT LAWLZ’
come on it’s just a game. a game that had no canon pairing and as a result, created beautiful scenarios and two different main pairings…cloti and cleris. i love that! i love seeing how both pairings come to the conclusion of love…why do you have to pretend like your side wins?
doesn’t matter what you say or how solid you think your facts are, there will always be evidence for the other side as well.
hence why i say ‘none!’ lol that way the battle. but hey, you’re a cloti shipper, good for you for drawing that conclusion, congrats on winning i’m so proud of you 😀
i know that’s sarcasim but you did bring a bit of evidence there, but it’s not enough to say ‘ha they said it’s cloti’ until they come right out and say to everyone ‘it’s cloti not cleris’. lol just because it says it in a magazine, doesn’t mean it’s fact honey lol. Not with what we saw in AC and the commentaries after AC.
again congrats, if thats what u wana believe, go for it. I’m just saying your evidence isn’t concrete, and never will be to anyone other then cloti shippers.
Kindly shut the fuck up, aki. The caption for the Highwind scene includes neither “aishiteru” nor “daisuke.”
And, no, General Leo is mentioned nowhere on the fucking page. Either provide something real, or get the hell out.
Wow, language. Perhaps some intelligent conversation and/or reason would convince people? I don’t know. Perhaps you should try it sometime.
Don’t just flame anyone who disagrees with you. It’s rather impolite.
Oglop, Aki is speaking entirely out of her ass. The words aishiteru and daisuke (nor daisuki which is what she wrote incorrectly as daisuke) are in the original Japanese text. Tres’s reaction to being told he was wrong because he ‘mistranslated’ words that aren’t even there is reasonable.
But please, Oglop, feel free to keep defending someone we’ve caught in a blatant lie. Only hurts the both of you more.
I’m really not for or against this, nor am i for cloti or cleris. It really doesn’t matter to me which is which, and if S-E wants people to finally realize the truth, just hold a press conference and actually say it, case closed lol.
otherwise, doesn’t matter what evidence you get, there’s evidence on the other side.
I for one am going with Cloud x Sephiroth! lmao no seriously though, i could care less which pairing it is and this is 13 years of whining and fighting that i love staying out of. though i do wish when you draw an image supporting one of the pairings, you wouldn’t get flamers of the other pairing ripping it apart… seeing how i drew cleris but i don’t actually support it. and i drew cloti and zackxyuffie and i don’t support those either lol
Can i just offer cookies and pretend i didn’t draw those? lol
but good article. Not sure how factual it is, given i don’t speak japanese but ya..
Se doesn’t need to hold a press conference. That is just absurd.
no i know but it’d silence everyone once and for all and people wouldn’t have to do this anymore.
the fact that they haven’t come right out and said there’s a pairing or that there’s none, makes it that much more confusing. There’s so much evidence for both sides because it was based around ‘players choice’. Thats what FF7 had that none of the other ones had.
Thus there can never be a canon pairing based on the fact ‘you got to choose’ who cloud’s feelings went towards.
SE has come right out and said who the canon pairing is. Multiple times. This translation is simply the latest in a long list of quotes about C/T. One that can’t be (sanely) said to be “ambiguous” or “open to interpretation”. Not that any of these others were ambiguous either. But never let it be said shippers can’t hold onto that wonderful delusion.
And no there is not “so much evidence for both sides”. If there was all this evidence for C/A it wouldn’t require multiple essays and the silly notion that SE is dropping “hints” in the compilation.
And no it was never up to “player choice”. That illusion should have been shattered about the time Cloud beat the shit out of Aerith.
a) cloud never beat up aeris, what the heck?
b) there’s still evidence for both, since C/A have a stronghold and can keep fighting. they wouldn’t and their numbers would be smaller if that were true.
c) lol FF7 is the only one that gives player choice, you can be rude to tifa hardcore in the game (how can that form love? lmao). sorry but there is.
d) your a cloti shipper, i respect that…but don’t sit there and say they’ve already said it, when they haven’t. it’s ignorance like that, that causes this stupid fighting.
e) that article has been out for like EVER why are you guys only just realizing that now? seriously, get with the times XD
f) the war has been over for years, its you shippers that keep bringing it up, no one cares anymore. 13 years man, give it up lol
g) now you’re just being silly. Since i wasn’t supporting either side, you still jumped to shuve cloti down my throat…this is why i don’t like shipping wars, and that i respect S-E for never coming out and saying ‘cloud and aeris, or cloud and tifa’ sorry, please link me to where they Directly say that, not where you ‘think’ they said it in some ‘context’ in the game or outside the game. i only just wanted to state i wasn’t for or against, and even that’s not satisifying for you freaky crazy fan people
Also, the original writer for the FF7 story never came back and did any of the prequel sequels..so maybe he didn’t want them to have a pairing either? you don’t know that. lol and no where in the game does it say ‘hey, tifa i love you lets mate like bunnies’ doesn’t even hit at it. Hits he had a crush, nothin’ else. lol. Again you’re just going by what other people have said not what was in game lol. which i was going by.
please show me the ‘tifa i love you!’ from cloud lol. otherwise, again, it’s up for the player to decide. Otherwise my dear, cloud and tifa would’ve got a cut scene of kissing or hugging as S-E does for ALL THERE CANON PAIRINGS in everything past FF minus Snes since they didn’t have the technology to do that back then. But yet, they remade ff4…and there’s love scenes between cecil and rosa awwww.
but wait…cloud has never kissed or hugged tifa? that sucks 🙁 why would S-E not do it for FF7 but do it for every other ff game? lol when you can answer that, i’ll hump cloti right with you.
i tip my hats to you cloti shippers, i couldn’t rage as long as you guys have.
for me, i shall remain neutral, i don’t favour either pairing, i’m also not saying either pairing didn’t happen or can’t be cannon.
A. Temple of the Ancients. The fact you don’t know this is slightly distressing to me.
B. Their numbers are small. The vast majority of the FFVII fandom don’t buy what they are selling.
C. You can’t be rude to Tifa. You can call Aerith the slum drunk if you wish.
D. I don’t ship. I argue canon.
E. WTF are you talking about?
F. Yet here you are.
G. Closing your eyes and going “it’s not true if I don’t see it” does not make you more reasonable. And I am not buying your neutral stance. I guess “THERE IS NO CANON” is the last desperate cry of a clerith shipper.
–“i respect S-E for never coming out and saying ‘cloud and aeris, or cloud and tifa’ sorry, please link me to where they Directly say that, not where you ‘think’ they said it in some ‘context’ in the game or outside the game.”
It’s right here on the page you’ve been placing comments on.
–“Also, the original writer for the FF7 story never came back and did any of the prequel sequels..”
Yes, he did. Kazushige Nojima wrote FFVII, AC/C, CC, did some scenario supervisor work on BC (it could have used a lot more supervision), and wrote the On the Way to a Smile stories.
If you’re talking about Hironobu Sakaguchi, his greatest contribution to the story was the Lifestream concept (and even that had its visual depiction determined by Yoshinori Kitase). Sakaguchi’s original ideas for the story were completely different from the final product, and almost all of them were discarded according — and that’s according to Tetsuya Nomura:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/793/793956p1.html
–“Otherwise my dear, cloud and tifa would’ve got a cut scene of kissing or hugging”
Such as the scene described on this very page where they confirmed their mutual feelings of desire and renai (“romantic love” in English) for one another without using words?
That scene that they actually have together, you mean?
I laughed!!! Oh, I laughed so hard reading this! Really! I’m still laughing!
Play the game already! For Jenova’s sake! Cloud beat the shit out of Aerith? Oh, that’s funny! That really is!
Just play VII! I’m not joking! You just sound stupid!
Don’t you even know who killed Aeris? Spoiler warning: It was Sephiroth! No, really! I’m not joking! Oh, please. You’re killing me. You really are.
Oh, also. I forgot to inquire what the relevance of Mr. FFVIII’s little link to the ‘VII is never going to have a remake’ article had to the discussion. The original ideas for the story were completely different from the final product? Of course. Now how does this support your point?
In fact, that article sounded to me like it was shipping Sephiroth/Cloud far more than Cloud/Tifa. Now let’s write an article about how Sephiroth/Cloud is canon! …The relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth… If ‘Sephiroth’ had been changed to ‘Tifa’, you would have been foaming at the mouth pointing at the word ‘relationship’.
Your cries of, ‘It’s canon, it’s canon!’ are becoming more and more pitiful, and your arguments are dissipating. Threats that people are too scared to go on the forum? Why would we do that when we’re having a lovely debate here?
And spamming the front page with mini-essays? You seem to be doing that too, Ven-chan. I argued with you enough to know. But your comments become shorter and shorter, and eventually revert to simple insults. Perhaps the ability to hold up a good argument says something about your subject.
I also notice that none of the beginning comments that you so love to flame are malicious. However, yours are. Take a few deep breaths and calm down before you type. And please think about what you’re saying before you submit it.
Oglop, Cloud did beat up Aerith. Temple of the Ancients.
Seriously, kid, you’re only hurting yourself by continuing like you are.
If you wish to continue this little sniping game, I invite you to stop littering the frontpage with your inanity and take it to the appropriate topic in the forum.
Oh, dear. I’m annoying them. Kid. That’s funny. I’ll take that.
I’m rather disappointed that you would use possessed Cloud as an excuse to disperse the Cloud/Aeris shippers. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but… I mean, really. I suppose that next you’ll come out with an article titled Square Admits: Cloud is Actually Evil. Your ‘facts’ will be when Sephiroth manipulates Cloud.
I don’t quite understand when you tell me that I’m hurting myself. I’m sure that you reviewed your response and nodded to yourself, thinking that it was a fluent comment that made you sound superior, and that I would cave and whine on some Cloud/Aeris website that the Lifestream was bullying me. Aw. I’d like to see who you picture me as. Perhaps it would hurt you, but I see this as a discussion about fictional characters. I’m actually having quite a bit of fun here.
Plus, when did I ever defend anyone on the translation issue? I’m not choosing sides. I don’t know Japanese; if I did, I’d come to my own conclusion on the matter. I’m defending Aki simply because I think that s/he has better reasons than you do. Opinions should not be treated as fact, and vice-versa.
And please. Both you and Vendel have posted far more derogatory comments than I have, and in a far greater amount, and no one has told you to stop. I’ve encountered people such as you in the form of fans of a certain voice actor whose name I will not mention. You’re all the same. Do you want to know why we’re still arguing over this little matter? Because we’re human. Everyone wants to be right. You currently want to get rid of me. So you’ll do whatever you can to accomplish your goal.
Now, now, don’t fret. I’m not a schoolchild taunting at recess, saying that I won’t leave until I get my way. I’m simply stating that I have the right to post what I want as long as it is in the guidelines of the website’s rules. Which I have been. I’m also giving you a little lesson on human personality, something you seem not to understand. Perhaps if you would go out and talk to people, try to understand how their minds work, you would not fight so desperately for this pairing of yours. People don’t like personal opinion without backup unless they support your opinion. I’ve encountered this far more times in real life than you could imagine in your little fandom.
I can and will argue my point as much as I want to. You may or may not debate with me. You are, after all, only hurting yourself continuing as you are.
No, Oglop, you are not irritating me. I am telling you that you are not doing yourself any favors with your accusations and projections of what you think I’m like- making it quite hilarious that you think I’m being abusive in this exchange. The worse I’ve done is call Aki a ‘butthurt troll’ after her blatant lies on the subject. You, on the other hand, have made a blatant and outrageous attack on my person based zero personal history.
Child, I am trying to be polite, to extend the olive branch. But I guess you don’t want to try diplomacy, or to take the discussion to the forum where it belongs, as I asked. As you have noticed, the front page is not intended for extended discussions, so please, stop acting like I’m some big evil overlord type and just take it to the forums.
Oh, and if you want to try and throw my words back at me, try and do a better job in the future.
–“Oh, also. I forgot to inquire what the relevance of Mr. FFVIII’s little link to the ‘VII is never going to have a remake’ article had to the discussion.”
I clearly explained its relevance when I posted the damn thing: In the event that mune was referring to Sakaguchi as “the original writer,” I was pointing out that his contributions to the story were minimal and that what he conceived of was “completely different” — in Nomura’s own words — from the final product.
In other words, I was emphasizing that Nojima — the staff member who has continued working on FFVII-related projects, typically in the capacity as their writer, and whom Kitase himself has referred to as FFVII’s writer in the May 2003 issue of EDGE magazine — is FFVII’s original writer, and that he has, in fact, been involved with the Compilation, contrary to mune’s statement.
Which I explained in the post you responded to. What the hell is wrong with you?
–“I’m rather disappointed that you would use possessed Cloud as an excuse to disperse the Cloud/Aeris shippers.”
I don’t think that’s what was going on. What it appears like is that mune genuinely did not recall the event, and, thus, Vendel clarified where and when it took place.
For that matter, he wasn’t using it as evidence that Cloud didn’t like Aerith in the first place. He was quite obviously using it as a point of reference for when the player’s choices stopped making a difference in Cloud’s behavior.
Which *was* right around that time, as this was shortly after the date at the Gold Saucer.
–“Plus, when did I ever defend anyone on the translation issue? I’m not choosing sides. I don’t know Japanese; if I did, I’d come to my own conclusion on the matter. I’m defending Aki simply because I think that s/he has better reasons than you do. Opinions should not be treated as fact, and vice-versa.”
What the fuck? All aki did was *make shit up and blatantly lie*.
For that matter, “I don’t know Japanese” is not a valid excuse for what you’re doing. I have already posted the fucking Japanese text, and will do so again now:
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを彼女と確かめ合う
I’ll even post a word-by-word breakdown of it *again* at the end of this post.
Now, if nothing else, you can take that to Babelfish, Google’s translater, or popjisyo.com and easily see the meaning (popjisyo will even give you the meaning of individual words). You can also easily see that neither “aishiteru” nor “daisuki” are in the goddamn sentence.
This, by the way, is how Leo’s name is spelled in katakana: レオ
It’s nowhere on that fucking page. Meaning aki is a fucking liar.
And, yes, if you think “aki has better reasons” for what she’s saying, then you *are* making a defense of a translation. Not that she translated a goddamn thing to begin with.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Anyway, here’s that word-by-word breakdown I promised:
ティファ=Tifa
の=”of”
おかげで=”thanks to”
自分=”oneself”; “himself” for this sentence
を=particle identifying recipient of an action
取り=”to take” or “to receive”
戻した=past tense of “return”; with the previous, it means “regain”
クラウド=Cloud
は=particle identifying main subject; Cloud, in this case
セフィロス=Sephiroth
と=”with”
最後=”last” or “final”
の=still means “of”
戦い=”battle”
を=still the particle identifying recipient of an action
前に=”before”
言葉=”words”
では=”in”
伝えられない=”not transmitted” or “not conveyed”
想い=”feelings”
を=you should know this one by now
彼女=”she” or “her”
と=”with”
確とかめ=”confirmation”
合う=”to match” or “to agree with”
So, following the rules of Japanese grammar, you put that all together and you get: “Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.”
If one wanted, they could render 言葉では伝えられない as something like “without conveying in words” or “while at a loss for words,” but they’re still arriving at the same conclusion: Cloud and Tifa confirmed that their feelings for one another match, and did so without using words.
Also, let me reiterate that the whole page — with the exception of the small section that specifies it isn’t — is talking about 恋愛 (romantic love):
(Opening section of the page)
愛する人のために
長い旅を通じて築かれる、主人公たちの恋愛感情。ときにはふたりが引き裂かれることもあるが、お互いを大事に想っていればどんな難局でも乗り越えていけるという気持ちは、彼らに大きな力を与えてくれる。
Now, take what’s in front of you and either seek to confirm it for yourself and be enlightened on the subject, or continue to dwell in blissful ignorance while you defend liars. If you please.
This is only a request, of course. You are as free as aki to remain full of shit — but it would be better for everyone if you didn’t.
And, yes, I agree that Ryu and Vendel have made a number of abusive posts. I will even tell you now that in the past few days, I’ve made a couple of them myself.
But I don’t apologize for it when it involves people lying out their ass in an attempt to discredit something, nor when it involves someone who defends said liars without attempting to verify anything — instead making their defense on the simple basis that they think the other side is coarse in their approach.
I’d ask you to consider whether the coarse approach that I, at least, have taken is warranted when *I am being called a liar by an asshole who makes shit up and provides nothing more than assertion*.
I actually have some respect for Squall_of_SeeD now. That’s a decent argument. Ven-chan shouldn’t be part of this, as all he talks about are drugs, he hasn’t actually played the game, and he’s being a hypocrite. And really, Ryu? Please cease your senseless criticism.
This discussion is rather pointless now, as there is only one person debating something that is actually relevant to the subject. There is no point in continuing now. However, I am still free to comment as I please, so if you would be so polite as to not flame me if I say one word, I would greatly appreciate it.
@oglop_master: You keep bringing up the “hasn’t played the game” argument when you haven’t actually proved that anything he or anyone else has said didn’t happen or is inaccurate.
He hasn’t. Try asking him.
Oglop, Ven has corrected you on various facts of the original game that you have gotten incorrect. I also have pointed out things that you think ‘didn’t happen’ but did. This isn’t ‘senseless criticism’, this is noting that you’re accusing other people of not playing the game while getting quite a lot of the actual facts wrong in your own posts. You also should be telling someone they should stop ‘senseless criticism’ after your open ad hominem in your above posts. That’s the sort of thing I’m saying you should stop, since it reflects poorly on you, not the person you accuse.
Now, please indulge my curiosity, since you have apparently decided on the reason I responded being somehow malicious- have I met you before, were you told that I am some sort of evil, or were you just making this all up as you go?
As far as I know, I have not met you, and I do not know anyone who has met you. I am so tired of this argument. But why doesn’t anyone try asking Vendel if he’s played VII. I note that he hasn’t commented recently.
So, then your accusation of my intention was entirely your making shit up willy nilly, then. Glad to have determined that.
Vendel has proved he has played FFVII previously, including correcting mistakes made by yourself and others. He also explained to you that he was speaking of the gap between game and Case of Denzel when referring to the ‘four years’ that prompted your ‘Have you played the game’ tirade.
He has also commented as recently as last night on the front page, and a few hours ago on the forums which I ask you for a third time to please take further disputes towards.
Lastly, if you’re so sick of this argument, then concede and go away. It is your agression that continues this, after all.
You’re kind of a funny person. I can predict exactly what you are going to respond with even before you say it. And you’re being somewhat immature. Not to say that I’m not, but your determination to prove yourself right is rather childish.
There is no possible way that you can say that the pairing is absolutely canon for the simple reason that Square has never said that it is canon. They can hint all they want, and you can debate all you want, but until they come out and say it, there will still be some slight doubt in the back of everyone’s minds. You can crush it, I can crush it, the Cloud/Tifa shippers can crush it, but it still remains. It’s small, but it’s still there. That is why, if they came out with a statement saying that Cloud and Tifa was the canon pairing, you and everyone else shipping that would celebrate. If that doubt was not there, you would just think, ‘Oh, they said it,’ and move on. But as you continue to defend your pairing, the fact that a pairing is all it is continues to be emphasized with every word.
Your first mistake is thinking most people here are shippers.
Your second mistake is not realizing that this has been canon since the game came out. All this book is doing is mentioning it casually, the way it does the rest of the couples, because that’s how obvious it is to everyone who actually played the game without bias. The rest are people who are too stupid to get a sexual reference when they are hit over the bloody head with it.
There are people out there who will never accept HarryxHermione isn’t canon, so how is this any different?
–“… but until they come out and say it …”
You do realize that “coming right out and saying it” is exactly what this page did, right? Same thing with Kazushige Nojima’s interview last year when he talked about Cloud and Tifa as a couple:
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/magazine/gamebooks/ff/7novel/2p.html
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Nojima.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Squall_of_Seed/Nojima2.png
“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well
between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth, it
would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love,
marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get
them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s
responsibility is big, I think.”
By this logic, no Final Fantasy pairing is canon. Because Square has never said any of them are canon. Yet I bet you have no problem recognizing all the other romantic couples on that page as ‘canon.’ Why? Because for every game but FF7 you don’t feel the need to apply this absurd ‘explicitly declared as canon’ standard.
And honestly, the only reason there’s doubt any longer is because some people insist on doubting, not because it’s reasonable, but because they don’t want to admit it’s over.
No, I do have problems with quite a few of the other pairings on that page, actually. Squall and Rinoa is canon, it has been said, as has Tidus and Yuna. However, Ingus and Sara? Not really. There was almost nothing to back it up. Beatrix and Steiner, is almost but not quite canon, and so is Zidane and Garnet. I have nothing to say about the rest. But the point remains that Cloud and Aeris are together on that page too.
So basically what you are telling us is that you don’t understand what the word canon means. Creators/Authors dictate it, not you.
Oh, and Cloud and Aerith are most definitely on that page, as an image showing the dating game and saying it’s irrelevant.
Nice try though! 🙂
Ah, yes. I must have overlooked where it says that ‘Cloud and Tifa are in a romantic relationship and Aeris isn’t a character in the Compilation anymore and is completely irrelevant and should not be counted in anything.’
I’m proud of you for your comprehension of the idea of ‘canon’ that everyone else seems to ignore. Perhaps in the future your words should represent this meaning instead of denying it? 🙂
I have asked this of you before I think glop. But Have you actually read the article?
I read the article, I read the page, I read Squall_of_SeeD’s earlier article, I’ve played VII, I’ve watched Advent Children and ACC, I’ve played Dirge, I’ve read a lot of the Ultimania and all of the Cases. Just to name a few things that I’ve done. Is that good enough for you?
But Ven-chan! I’m hurt that you still haven’t answered any of my questions. 🙁
You claim all of these things glop. Yet you are still so wrong. So are you a liar or an idiot?
Aw. You say this and yet you still won’t answer my question. At least I’ll tell the truth instead of just hiding things. Whether or not you choose to believe me is up to you. I’m just wasting my time arguing with someone who hasn’t even played one Final Fantasy.
From someone who couldn’t find it with both hands and their friends, that sure is rich glop.
Pray tell, what are we finding? Your lost dignity? Or perhaps those crushed dreams of yours of actually playing VII?
Oglop, you are not engaging in exactly what you wanted to scorn Tres for doing, and for far less reason- making blatant attacks on people. Your hypocrisy does you no favors.
Nor does your insisting upon asinine standards, or blatant strawmen such as ‘Aeris isn’t a character in the Compilation anymore and is completely irrelevant and should not be counted in anything.’ No one has said this. They have, however, told you that the text about that picture says that ‘Depending on Cloud acts, one of four people will show up on the date with him’ (my paraphrase) and says absolutely nothing about how Cloud feels. The page on the subject of the date lists all four, and merely talks about what the four choices do on their date, not discussing Cloud at all. Meanwhile, while the highwind scene says he confirms his feelings with Tifa under the highwind. Obviously romantic feelings, elsewise why else would they be on the romantic love heading, and not in the ‘non romantic love’ heading along with Galuf and Krile, Terra and the orphans, or Eiko and Mog?
Oglop, you aren’t just denying C/T here, but three other canon pairings.
Maybe you should rethink your standards and examine yourself, instead of repeatedly accusing Ven of never playing the game.
Hypocritical? Perhaps you should think this over before accusing me of that. I have been making blatant insults, I’ll admit to that. You among others have been doing the same and haven’t answered to it. However, if there is one thing that I cannot stand, it is people who claim to know everything about something that they know nothing about. Such as people who go on about an anime that they’ve only watched one episode of, or a book they haven’t read, or perhaps a game that they haven’t played.
Oh, and just in case you failed to notice, Cloud and Aeris were in the romantic love category. So you’re denying that pairing. And if you’re denying that one, than you have no right to be admonishing me for denying others.
You among others have been doing the same and haven’t answered to it.
I make no secret or special pleading for my foul mouth or the mouth of others. I only bring up your hypocrisy because you got on Tres’s case for his foul mouth, only to conduct yourself mostly with irrelevant attacks such as …
a game that they haven’t played.
An attack that you persist in making despite the utter irrelevancy.
Oh, and just in case you failed to notice, Cloud and Aeris were in the romantic love category. So you’re denying that pairing. And if you’re denying that one, than you have no right to be admonishing me for denying others.
And the text of that picture specifically talks of the optional nature of the four dates. The page detailing the four dates says Aerith reveals her feelings here, which might explain why it is on the page, but again, says absolutely nothing regarding Cloud, UNLIKE the highwind caption. Further, Cloud has been said to be oblivious of her intentions, so what does this picture tell us? That Aerith, and Aerith alone, displayed her romantic feelings, unlike Clod and Tifa who confirmed the feelings they both had. That’s what the big difference is. All the other ones talk of feelings both have. This one only talks of Aerith’s feelings, and even that’s after checking a different page entirely. This page, period, this header on romantic love, says Cloud and Tifa confirmed their feelings they both had. That alone is enough to validate them as a couple. Aerith’s feelings alone can do nothing.
And yes, I do have a right to admonish you for not realizing canon pairings as such.
To be honest, I’d like to know how Zidane and Garnet are ‘almost but not quite’ canon. Since although his affection does initially seem insincere, they do develop a love and believe in one another, have several meaningful hugs, and the game ends with him coming back home and saying ‘come to me, my Garnet!’ and she rushes to him to embrace him. I’m not sure how much more canon you can get.
–“Cloud and Aeris are together on that page too”
Appearing in the same scene puts Cloud and Aerith together? Nevermind Cloud fucking Tifa — that’s quite the orgy you’ve got going on during the scene when AVALANCHE reunites on the Highwind at Disc 2’s end then.
In any event, the caption for the picture with Aerith and Cloud most decidedly establishes that the date scene — Aerith’s closest shot at anything romantic with Cloud, optional though it is — was irrelevant. The caption for the Highwind scene establishes that it’s as relevant as such scenes as Tidus and Yuna making out in the Macalania spring.
Seriously, put two and two together and get four for fuck’s sake.
Hey asshole….I mean ‘oglop_master’. Played the game yet?
Actually, yes. Multiple times. Far more than you have.
Wait. What happened to the glop I know? The one who laughs about how someone hasn’t played the game while being completely wrong.
I miss that glop.
Although the glop that is screaming “NO CANON” is ever present. And just as wrong.
You’re silly, Ven-chan. Have you played any Final Fantasy game?
By this assertion, HarryxHermione must have had a relationship at some point because some people enjoy it. Whether or not JK Rowling comes out and says Harry and Ginny are soulmates and perfect equals to one enother, or if Square Enix includes Cloud and Tifa’s moment underneath the Highwind with all of the other canon pairings on the series, this clearly means nothing.
While I do realize that for some, Cloud and Tifa will never be canon, this seems like proof enough for me that there is requited love between them and I cam content with it.
… I am really confused as to the reason provoking the comparison between Harry/Hermione and Tifa/Cloud. Harry and Ginny are the married couple. As far as I know, Tifa and Cloud are not married. (Vennie, you can correct me on this if you want, as you claim that I have not played VII while you yourself have not, so therefore you know far more than I. Doing so, however, would make you look somewhat ridiculous, though.)
But ship whatever you want. This is a better response than most. I don’t really care what you ship. Even if it’s Heidegger/Palmer or something odd like that.
@oglop: we don’t need to ask what we already know. ORZ, doubting that Vendel played the game? LULZ.
Also the argument that SE needs to hold a conference about the LTD is just ludicrous. Romance isn’t even a big part in FFVII. People just need to accept that SE’s been doing what they’ve been doing with their other canon pairings, i.e. treating Cloud/Tifa as the canon one for this game.
Thank you! That should really be the point! You are all so obsessed with your pairing that you completely miss the game! This is why the fandom is becoming more and more idiotic. Because people continue to disregard the plot for the romance.
Yaoi fangirls. Everyone who isn’t one hates them, but they don’t care. They completely disregard the storyline, the characters, anything important except for their pairings, which they ship hardcore and just want to see smut. You people are acting exactly the same way.
Romance isn’t even a big part in FFVII. This is why this “Love Triangle Debate” article should not be here! It’s completely irrelevant to all that is Final Fantasy VII.
Of course the idea of Square holding a conference about the love triangle is ludicrous. I would be extremely disappointed with the company if they did something like that. That’s why I said it. It would destroy the essence of Final Fantasy.
A huge part of what makes the Final Fantasy series itself are the questions. Nothing is certain. X-2 even has no one canon ending! The ends of the games are never completely tied. There are still questions to be asked, problems to be debated, and relationships to wonder about. That in itself is Final Fantasy. The canon is what is directly stated in the games. That is all there is. I personally want to know Nomura’s opinions on many of his characters. However, if I got it, that doesn’t make it canon. Whatever is canon is up to the story. If it’s not in the story, it’s not true and you’re just fooling yourself.
The characters are people, and people change. Some of the major points of Final Fantasy are change, reality, and the human nature. Tidus began FFX only trying to get back to Zanarkand and feeling angry with his father, but in the end, he forgives Jecht and accepts not going back. In Final Fantasy IX, Steiner shows up trying only to protect Garnet and showing his loyalty to Brahne. I hated him all the way through disk one. Then he began to show his personality through his experiences and open up more to Zidane, whom he had once hated. In Final Fantasy VII, Cloud begins the game as an emo kid with a split personality, and ended as someone looking into the future and trying to stay alive with the people he cares about. Need I go on?
The human nature should not be disregarded as something that you can simply say, ‘I want to see this person and this person having sex’ to. That is reality, and that is Final Fantasy. This is why Square does not make canon pairings except for the ones that fit into the story. (Or, like VIII, the ones that the story was built around because they wanted to see how well a game based off of romance would go over. Didn’t try that again, did they?)
All you people are saying is that you want to see Cloud and Tifa making out and screw the rest of the party, Cloud threw the PHS and his shiny new AC cell phone in the lake with the Midgar Zolom and screwed Tifa in the Mythril Mine. What about Barret? Cait Sith? Cid? Nanaki? Yuffie? Vincent? Or even some respect for freaking Aeris? Whatever happened to the plot? The amazing, groundbreaking creation that was Final Fantasy VII? Gone are the days when you could go online and have an intelligent discussion about the nuances of the story involving, oh, I don’t know, Shin-Ra, SOLDIER, or the Turks? Perhaps talking about the struggles that the surviving members of AVALANCHE had to go through after the plate fell? Or after Aeris died? Or perhaps after they killed Sephiroth and Meteor came? But no. All you can talk about anymore is whether or not Cloud and Tifa were doing it on the Highwind that night, and if they’re doing it now. Shin-Ra doesn’t matter anymore, breeding chocobos doesn’t matter anymore, Barret’s sailor suit doesn’t matter anymore, the cute little NPCs like Johnny don’t matter anymore, and your materia doesn’t matter as long as you can get through the Northern Crater and beat Sephiroth. All you care about is getting the Highwind cutscene that you want. The one where Tifa and Cloud imply that they had sex. That’s not the point of the game, and all of you are so blinded by your pairing that you don’t see the overall brilliance of the game.
The creation is falling apart as the fandom ignores the game for the pairings. And I’m sick and tired of it. I know that this comment will be flamed more and more, but bring it on. Because if your pairings are more important than the story, you’re only a sad little wannabe Final Fantasy fan that just played the game because it was popular.
And another thing. From here on out, I’ll speak to you with my personality and my own words. Without using euphemisms. And I’ll only respond to the comments that I really feel need a response. So if you get offended, that’s your problem. Because this is what I think and I know that my views are shared. I’m not going to make it sound more credible by trying to sound ridiculously intelligent and stuck up. It’ll come down to the hard, gritty facts that are so prevalent in VII. Suck it up and start formulating a decent argument.
Get a grip glop. No one cares. Your views on the compilation of FFVII or any FF game in general are worthless. You can’t seem to grasp some very basic concepts.
Honestly X-2 has no canon ending? Stop smoking crack.
Look up X-2. There are actually six different endings to that game.
And again with the drug references.
Multiple endings != No canon ending.
sorry i forgot to add an example,
for example, in star ocean 2 the canon pairing leads towards rena and claude, but because you can develop feelings for other characters, that pairing might not happen at the end (rena and ashton, claude and opera, etc) even though all the signs point to claude and rena.
thats kinda what FF7 did; allowing you to choose and giving you scenes that can be taken as love scenes for both. Even in AC they’re living together, but in seperate beds. so it keeps the old part of the game where you could choose, alive.
FINALLY!!! I was tired of three things:
1) Cloud moping over having not been able to protect Aeris/Aerith.
2) NOT seeing that Tifa couls handle her own, and go out like Aerith.
3) Claerith fangirls….she’s DEAD, Cloud’s officially moved on, follow suit. Lol!
Oglop and Mune any chance I can get you to take your arguments here:
http://killthemongoose.com/tnc/index.php
We need Cleriths and you see to be willing. ANd Vendel’s not there 😛
That is a benefit, but I don’t ship Cloud and Aeris! I actually think that Cloud and Tifa are kind of cute together. But I’ll keep arguing that it’s not canon because nothing is, lol. I’ll check out the website, though! ^_^
THERE IS NO CANON. The final desperate, sad cry of a disillusioned clerith shipper.
You’re not fooling anyone glop.
Wow, you’re depressing. This is truly funny.
And actually, if you absolutely must bring in my opinion, I despise Aeris. With a passion. When most people were crying when she became a floating shish kebab at the bottom of the lake, I was laughing. And then my Cait Sith beasted it out on Jenova and I laughed even harder. So no, I do not ship Cloud and Aeris. In any way, shape, or form. I like Aeris more when she’s dead.
hohoho! yey! cloud and tifa forever! aeriths dead so why would she and cloud be together??! i love tifa and cloud!
finally… after quite some time it’s all over now…haaaayayy. i’ve been so dreaming of them being a REAL COUPLE for good ever since. and now a i’m so happy to finally announce that THEY ARE!!!. CLOTI fanatics,… guys… YOU ROCK! thanks so much for all the support and effort. well, we just have to say they’re all worth it, right? ^_^. God bless y’all!
oh oh and by the way…. congratz to all “ZERITH” fans out there! i admit they do match up pretty well too,no, actually, they really look sooo goood as a couple!:D. i feel happy too, assuming zack and aerith’s destiny were the same because they were truly made to be together in paradise. *smiles*.., yeah,… perhaps the producers understood it well that aerith belongs to zack. and in the first place she did. *smiles again with teary eyes*. i love them too.
but to highlight it all… “CLOTI” I Lo0ove you!!!! :D. i hope they make another movie of FF with graphics as good as FF7 and now where tifa and cloud’s love story would show. ^_^. it’s just good to watch them in really outstanding graphics. :D.LOL.
nooo! guys! look at this site
http://www.clerith.com/Sweetheart.htm
what struck me most is
Tifa Lockhart – Cloud’s childhood friend and a master of martial arts. ~Dirge of Cerberes game booklet
Aerith Gainsborough – A girl with the blood of the Ancients flowing through her veins, who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life. ~Japanese version of the Dirge of Cerberes game booklet
Meanwhile, Aerith is referred to in the Dirge of Cerberes game booklet as someone “who is engraved in Cloud’s heart for the rest of his life”. This description of Aerith has a far more romantic tone than Tifa’s description as a friend. It’s even more interesting that the creators chose to describe Aerith in this way when Aerith isn’t even in the game. This can only mean that the creators wanted to make it clear that Aerith continues to hold a very special place in Cloud’s heart.
DIRGE OF CEBERUS is a year after advent children!
NOO! i’m a cloud and tifa fan! so they should end up together! you know what i mean!! together!!!!!! *going crazy*
That site should only be used for comedy purposes.
And I would place less stock in a game booklet than oh lets say in the Ultimania.
Also comment #200 bitches.
Clerith.com is a crazy shipper who will stop at nothing to try and find suttle hints, going as far as to make up Japanese people and translations. There are far more quotes that have come out after DC talking about Cloud and Tifa’s continued romantic relationship.
If it makes you feel better, it calls them childhood friends, but also Cloud an Ex-SOLDIER, which we know isn’t true.
Aerith being engraved in his heart just means he won’t forget her, the same way he won’t forget his promise to Tifa (same wording is used).
I knew it, its pretty obvious though, Cloud only got feelings for Aerith because of Zack’s memories replacing his and if you read the full profile of Zack in http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/zack.php it is written there that Aerith has been irreplacable to Zack.
I’m Happy to know that this settles the Love Triangle
The thing is. No one can prove Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith. Ever.
(Or Tifa.)
It’s been a while (or never) since you played hasn’t it? Cloud says it himself in the lifestream. You fail again.
I’m banking on never Alpha. You can’t be as wrong as glop and know anything about the original game or compilation.
I’m still a Clorith lover, their relation ship is more tragical and more beautiful
What relationship?
And no one is saying you can’t like any pairing. The problem is when people refuse to believe what the real pairings are.
and the real pairings are…?
ZACK: Hey hey, now guys, we all now Aerith loved, and loves, ME. Right sweetie pie?
AERITH: You know it, hot stuff. I just got a bit confused was all. Now, if you want to talk about the real love triangle going on–
SEPHIROTH: Can I help it that Cloud always thinks about me? Clephiroth forever!
YEah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go clephirothS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“I am really confused as to the reason provoking the comparison between Harry/Hermione and Tifa/Cloud.”
The comparison is between H/H shippers and C/A shippers. Just because there are people who will argue forever that H/H are the true couple, doesn’t mean the books didn’t have a definitive answer, of H/G. The same is true for FFVII, just because people argue that C/A are the true couple, doesn’t mean the game didn’t have a definitive answer of C/T.
I love you guys.
Carry on.
Will do.
You lack tentacles. I’m kind of disappointed.
*going to eat a cultist*
Oglop, your comments actually just became genuinely interesting. Your observations about several of the characters of FF made for a fun read, and I’d like to see more of them.
–“Nothing is certain. X-2 even has no one canon ending!”
I think it probably does, to be honest. I mean, it has an in-game counter for what percentage of the story you’ve actually completed. 100% of the story would be the canon story, wouldn’t it?
–“The ends of the games are never completely tied. There are still questions to be asked, problems to be debated, and relationships to wonder about. That in itself is Final Fantasy.”
This I certainly agree with. We often think in terms of “happy endings” or “bad endings,” but what pretty much every FF has in common with all the others is that their endings are “life goes on” — with all the potential for future complications that brings with it.
–“The canon is what is directly stated in the games. That is all there is. I personally want to know Nomura’s opinions on many of his characters. However, if I got it, that doesn’t make it canon. Whatever is canon is up to the story. If it’s not in the story, it’s not true and you’re just fooling yourself.”
This I disagree with. By the definition of “canon,” you’re wrong about that.
Now, that said, I don’t think that Nomura’s personal opinions about something are necessarily going to become canon, but he wouldn’t be likely to present them as such either.
At one time, Nomura said that he thought the Promised Land was Midgar. But he didn’t so in such a way that he was suggesting it’s canon, nor was he discouraging others from finding a different interpretation. He’s always strongly encouraged each individual to take their own interpretation of the projects he’s involved with.
It’s one thing for a developer to say “This is how I perceive Vincent” or “This is what I think may happen to Cloud and Tifa after Advent Children Complete” — but it’s quite another when they’re clarifying plot elements, as is done in the Ultimanias.
Often times developers will take the position that they picture things a certain way, but that’s not how it absolutely has to be. Fumito Ueda is well known for this. He even uses the term “my interpretation” when talking about his own projects.
But there are other times that they’re absolutely asserting that “this” is what was intended. “This” is what the story is.
And, given what the concept of canon *is*, they are correct.
But you’re not talking about canon when you say that what’s in the game is all that there is. Let me emphasize once more, that’s not my opinion. That’s just following the definition of the term.
What you’re talking about isn’t canon, but literary analysis — which is obviously just as important, because it’s what each individual who observes the story is going to do. Nomura once said that he likes to think that there are as many FFVIIs as there are people who played the game.
*That* is literary analysis. Canon is something else altogether. Canon is about an official timeline, as determined by the developers.
Obviously that concept becomes murky when you lose key developers (ex: Yasumi Matsuno wasn’t part of the Ivalice Alliance project, and who knows how much of his influence was actually at work; at the same time, however, if Auteur Theory is inadequate for analyzing most film, how much more likely is it to be adequate to analyze most games?
You may have multiple people who are all legitimately the authors of a fictional universe. For all we know, there could be one or two other people just as relevant to Ivalice’s development as Matsuno — or even individuals who are more of an authority on certain elements of it than he is.
Now, I believe that Matsuno is probably the “father” of Ivalice far and above anyone else, but I’m just speaking hypothetically.
In all honesty, with his departure from Square Enix, the canonicity — even by its traditional definition — of titles like FFXII: Revenant Wings and FF: Tactics Advance 2 becomes a matter of debate. We don’t know how many of Matsuno’s own concepts were involved, but he had no involvement in the actual production of either title.
So while the same company certainly developed and published those titles in the Ivalice Alliance, I personally take no issue with an opinion that either title is of dubious canonicity. I largely ignore them myself.
In any event, when we’re dealing with something like FFVII, where the key developers (Kitase, Nojima, Nomura and Noara) have been involved since day one and continue to be, I think it’s only the logical thing to do to acknowledge any new titles, Ultimania explanations or interviews as canon (with interviews, of course, it all depends on how definitively the idea is put forth).
–“All you people are saying is that you want to see Cloud and Tifa making out and screw the rest of the party …”
That’s not what anyone here is doing. You should peruse our forum. We discuss much more than just the LTD.
–“Gone are the days when you could go online and have an intelligent discussion about the nuances of the story involving, oh, I don’t know, Shin-Ra, SOLDIER, or the Turks? Perhaps talking about the struggles that the surviving members of AVALANCHE had to go through after the plate fell? Or after Aeris died? Or perhaps after they killed Sephiroth and Meteor came? But no. All you can talk about anymore is whether or not Cloud and Tifa were doing it on the Highwind that night, and if they’re doing it now. Shin-Ra doesn’t matter anymore, breeding chocobos doesn’t matter anymore, Barret’s sailor suit doesn’t matter anymore, the cute little NPCs like Johnny don’t matter anymore, and your materia doesn’t matter as long as you can get through the Northern Crater and beat Sephiroth.”
You would be surprised to learn, I think, that many of us share that same lamentation.
The problem is that Square decided to make sequels and prequels to FFVII. All those things that you talked about were once the domain of forum discussions and fanfiction — the quality of which for the latter lay on a spectrum of dreadful to fantastic.
In any event, once the official position usurped that domain, once what the developers intended to be the “is” of so many things became known — yes, much of that discussion we all miss faded away. We still carry on some of it here on this very forum. But most of it’s gone.
The reason that the LTD gets more attention than any other plot element of FFVII now? It was that one dangling plot element for so many people. The one thing that had never gotten a definitive answer.
Whether humans survived Holy and Meteor got a definitive answer. Whether Sephiroth was in control of himself or simply a puppet of JENOVA got a definitive answer. What the war with Wutai was like got something of a definitive answer. As did what Zack’s early days in SOLDIER were like, the history of the Turks, etc.
All of these things stopped being so interesting to talk about because there was no longer a question to be answered. The LTD was the exception to all of that. It was truly the last mark to be hunted.
And now that it has, there will be even less to debate.
At least until the next Compilation title comes along.
I think that X-2 is as much about possibilities as it was about fanservice. You could finish the story all the way and get the perfect ending, or you could slack off and get the bad ending. That’s the way life is. FFX seems to be one of the least realistic games in the series in the way of the mood, but if you look closely, you’ll find connections to the real world that are so familiar that they’re shocking. The religious conflict, for example, or Tidus’s emotional struggles behind his ‘I’m the hero!’ facade. This carries over into X-2 where hiding behind the short skirts are flashes of reality. The end result is based on the effort you put into it, just like in real life. You may or may not end with what you set out to find. So they are all possibilities. It really depends on Yuna and the player who controls her. Not everyone lives out their life 100 percent. In fact, there are little to none who do. So I would not consider any one ending to be canon.
I was indeed wrong about the canon only being in the games, and I apologise for that. What is in the Ultimanias I would treat as canon, and facts that the directors stated about the games would be canon as well. However, my point was that many people have been arguing that some of the opinions of staff were facts and using them to argue their points. For example, simply because the Highwind scene with Cloud and Tifa implying that they were having sex is most often the one mentioned, this does not mean that it is the absolute canon one. That is part of the reality of Final Fantasy.
Many people here actually do talk about the sexual aspects of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in posts along the lines of ‘It says that they confirmed their feelings are the same and that he did something somewhere on a spectrum of “groped and hugged her” to “fucked her brains out.”’ (Sorry, I didn’t mean to name anyone, but I’m sure you’ll recognise this post and yours just happened to be the one that supported my argument the best.)
I think that one of Square’s points on leaving the love triangle open was so that people could debate it. However, the intention was not to have it as the most important detail about VII. There is still more to debate about VII including about who Cloud loves, and two articles will probably only count as more debating about what people ship, no matter what the author’s original intent was. The debate will most likely never be closed, and that’s part of the purpose.
Perhaps I will begin commenting on the forum. I tend to stay away from forums, but I’ve been enjoying discussing this. 🙂
“I think that one of Square’s points on leaving the love triangle open was so that people could debate it.”
I think people were too stupid to see a red herring for what it really was and got so attached they ignored the rest of the game. SE has never been shy about talking about Tifa and Cloud as a couple, which means either they changed their mind about leaving it open for debate, or it was so obvious they just don’t care about the minority who got it wrong.
My bet is on the second.
You seem to think these two articles are the only times Cloud and Tifa are mentioned like this, as a couple in a relationship. You’d be very wrong. I recommend joining the forums since many of the members have the information more on hand, and it is also very awkward to reply in these comments.
–“You may or may not end with what you set out to find. So they are all possibilities. It really depends on Yuna and the player who controls her. Not everyone lives out their life 100 percent. In fact, there are little to none who do. So I would not consider any one ending to be canon.”
That’s a very interesting analysis. You seem to be quite good at them, truth be told.
I do hope you’ll join the forum and share more of them, actually.
Though excellent literary analysis, I don’t believe your commentary leaves room for the in-universe perspective, though, which requires things to have happened in some specific way.
I was looking at the U20 Scenario’s section on FFX-2 just now, and have the following observations to offer:
-The majority of events in the game are optional, but still get referred to as part of their respective locations’ stories (e.g. “Mt. Gagazet’s story”)
-Though it acknowledges the ending where Tidus returns as optional, it still seems to treat it as the way things should go down, referring to the choices critical to making it happen as “preparations for the ending” and also making reference to the 100% completion rating; as well, when talking about the completion rating at the beginning of the story summary, it says “This represents how much of FFX-2’s full story one has experienced, and has an influence on the contents of some events and the ending” (これは、『FFX-2』全体の物語をどれだけ体験したかを表すもので、一部のイベントやエンディングの内容に影響を与えるのだ)
The use of a term like “FFX-2’s full story” would seem to support what I was talking about before: that the canon story is the one the player arrives at with a 100% completion rating.
–“However, my point was that many people have been arguing that some of the opinions of staff were facts and using them to argue their points. For example, simply because the Highwind scene with Cloud and Tifa implying that they were having sex is most often the one mentioned, this does not mean that it is the absolute canon one. That is part of the reality of Final Fantasy.”
I don’t think anyone was referring to how often the scene is mentioned in interviews. To the best of my knowledge, it’s only been mentioned in a single interview.
I believe they were referring to things like the summaries of FFVII’s story found in VII’s Ultimania Omega (says they “reveal their mutual feelings”; pg. 198), VII’s 10th Anniversary Ultimania (says they “reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match”; pg. 118, or 120 if reading the Revised Edition), FF’s 20th Anniversary Scenario Ultimania (same phrasing as in VII’s 10th AU), and, of course, the “For the One I Love” page on pg. 394 of the U20 Scenario, which puts forth unequivocally — and with no mention of the player’s choices, nor an alternate version of events — that the two characters confirmed their feelings to be the same, and even did so in a way that didn’t involve words.
As well, they were likely referring to Square’s own published script of FFVII (in the FFVII Memorial Album), which used the high affection version of the scene only, even while it included reference to more than one date scene. Also probably on their minds was the “Impressive Scenes” selections at the beginning of FFVII’s section of the U20 Scenario, which features the script of the high affection Highwind scene as one of four scenes chosen to represent the game.
The story summaries in the book actually confirm quite a few optional things as part of the FF stories. Aside from those I’ve already mentioned, some other examples:
(FFVI)
-Shadow’s dreams
-Recruting Mog in the World of Balance
-Reuniting all of the Returners in the World of Ruin (so, basically, a quarter of the game)
-Recruting Umaro and Gogo
-Dream Stooges
-Gau meeting his father
-Hidon
-Odin
-Deathgaze
-Making sure Shadow survives all the way to the ending
(FFVII)
-Aerith and Tifa reacting in shock and running out of Zack’s parents’ house
-Vincent joining
-Yuffie joining
-Wutai sidequest
-Seeing Gast and Ifalna’s videos at Icicle Inn
-Zack flashback
-Seeing Lucrecia
-Visiting the Gelnika and encountering the Turks
-Bugenhagen’s death
(FFX)
-Stuff involving Belgemine
-Exploring the Cavern of the Stolen Fayth and battling Lady Ginnem
-Getting Anima and revisiting the various fayth in their temples toward the end of the game
–“Many people here actually do talk about the sexual aspects of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship …”
Why is that problematic?
–“I think that one of Square’s points on leaving the love triangle open was so that people could debate it. However, the intention was not to have it as the most important detail about VII.”
This is certainly true, and, again, I don’t think that most people who talk about it view it as such. It just happens to be the only major thing left to debate for a long time.
Things like whether humanity survived or JENOVA and Sephiroth’s relationship to one another really can’t be any longer.
Though MakoEyes and I did manage to find ourselves in a debate a few weeks ago about whether Sephiroth was capable of teleportation.
And, for that matter, there’s discussion on the forum right now about what Sephiroth’s childhood may have been like. But that’s not really something that can be debated.
It can be mused over, it can be speculated upon — but it’s not something that can be debated. It not only lacks the definitive answers that so much of what used to be debated now have, but it lacks any depiction or commentary whatsoever.
So, again, it’s possible to speculate about it whereas it’s not possible to do even that for almost everything else at this juncture.
I think you’re looking at all this the wrong way. It doesn’t get all this discussion because it’s seen as the most important part of FFVII. It gets all this discussion because it was the longest enduring mystery of FFVII.
Look at it like this: A NASCAR driver who has won every race but one might focus all their attention on a win for a relatively minor race that has eluded them throughout their career since all the others are already under their belt. It doesn’t matter that there are still other major races to be won *again*, the only one that *really* matters is the one that hasn’t been conquered yet.
That’s basically what happened with FFVII’s fandom and the LTD.
–“There is still more to debate about VII including about who Cloud loves …”
That’s the thing: At this point, who Cloud loves isn’t up for debate. We’ve had it stated directly to us on a page entitled “For the One I Love” in a section that specified it was talking about romantic love.
That particular matter is done. What can still be discussed — and, yes, even debated — is stuff like how much of the real Cloud was there while Aerith was still alive, whether he may have had any romantic feelings for/interest in her prior to getting his mind in order, and, of course, “what might have been.”
All of that’s still on the table. But “Who is Cloud in love with?” That one’s done.
–“The debate will most likely never be closed, and that’s part of the purpose.”
At this point it is. The same thing that happened with the “Was Sephiroth under JENOVA’s control debates?” will happen here: Those who have already seen the established, clarified facts will simply respond to those who are still approaching the matter as it if can be debated *with* those established, clarified facts — and that’s as far as it will go.
Even if one party is unwilling to accept it, whatever their reason, that’s as far as it will go.
You can’t have a debate without two participants, after all.
–“Perhaps I will begin commenting on the forum. I tend to stay away from forums, but I’ve been enjoying discussing this.”
I hope you will.
–“I’m not sure about this, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t actually think that it says in Case of Denzel that Denzel is actually still living with Tifa and Cloud. I’ll reread CoD if I’m wrong, but could you please point this out to me?”
When he enters Johnny’s café, in his mind, Johnny refers to him as part of Tifa’s family. Also, Denzel says toward the end that he wanted to join the WRO so he could be like Cloud, so he’s definitely still looking at Cloud as his father figure.
I do have to echo Vendel’s question, though: Why wouldn’t Denzel still be living with Tifa and Cloud?
–“Yeah, Ryu-chan. I read that interview as well. The scene described as risque was scrapped. Meaning it’s not in the final product.”
Actually, Tifa’s line is what was described as risqué, and that led into the conversation about the original presentation of the scene. That’s all that they talk about: an alternate presentation of the same idea.
Here’s Kitase’s line right after the interviewer comments that it was a mature conversation for an FF game:
それでも、あまりにもどぎつい表現は抑えてもらった覚えがありますね。
“Even so, I remember having to tone down a too intense/more extreme presentation.”
The word Kitase used here (表現) means “expression,” “representation” or “presentation.” So that idea was still at work for the final product.
–“And if you had a fatal disease, wouldn’t you still be in love? And for the simple reason that it was fatal, wouldn’t you want to hug and kiss and do cheesy stuff like that? Because you wouldn’t get to see that person later on? Especially when you knew that the disease wasn’t contagious?”
Cloud didn’t feel worthy of his family, and he makes himself quite clear about this. That was the reason he secluded himself from them to begin with.
You present a very good argument, but I cannot be convinced. Before reading Case of Tifa, I am fairly certain that I would have agreed with you, or at the least, I would not have debated this article. However, in CoT, Tifa ends up showing different feelings for Cloud than those of romantic love.
At the beginning of CoT, I thought, ‘Ah, this story will go into the details of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship and will show them as a couple.’ I like Cloud and Tifa together, I really do. I wouldn’t lie about this. I thought that it would just be cute and have them together with Marlene and Denzel as a family. And it did have that. But most of the way through the story, Tifa thinks this:
Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was welling up inside her.
These are not feelings of romantic love. Perhaps Tifa and Cloud were together romantically at one time, but in CoT, Tifa seems to accept their relationship as a purely platonic one. Case of Tifa was about Tifa’s acceptance to the situation and how she learned to move on and live out her life. That was the theme of all of the Cases. The way that she learned to live it out was by figuring out the relationship between herself and Cloud. She had motherly feelings towards Cloud, but she still had romantic ones as well, as dictated when she asked Cloud if he loved her while he was asleep. Cloud did not answer any of the things that she said about their relationship once he woke up. She accepted the situation and the motherly feelings grew even more.
Just because there is a family relationship does not mean that there needs to be both a mother and a father. Tifa was the motherly figure in the family, and Cloud is said to be able to be mistaken for the fatherly figure, but he acts more like an older brother in the relationship. He looks up to Tifa, who is in charge of the ‘family’, and Marlene and Denzel look up to Cloud as they would to an older brother.
Another thing: When he enters Johnny’s café, in his mind, Johnny refers to him as part of Tifa’s family. This is not correct. In his mind, the only thing that Johnny thinks about Denzel is It was Denzel, a young boy who was special to Johnny. He’s one of the people who respected Tifa. Johnny was going to give all his heart into his service for Denzel. He does not refer to Denzel as a part of Tifa’s family. And also, it seems that in Dirge, Barret became a part of Tifa’s family as well. So the family is not just Tifa, Cloud, Marlene, and Denzel if Denzel is still living with them. I do not know why he wouldn’t still be living with them; I’m simply making a point. He could have decided to find his own way in life or something, I don’t know. But the fact that he looks up to Cloud is irrelevant. He may not live with Cloud anymore, but he can still look up to him.
glop do you really need to be spoon fed everything? Because CoD does not mention Denzel living with them then he might not be? How does that make any narrative or logical sense whatsoever?
The Ultimania and Cloud himself refer to it has his family. Or the family he and Tifa were forming. They are the parent figures. You fucking retard.
I was simply combating your statement. You’ve forgotten that you were arguing that there was a ‘four year gap’ between VII and CoD during which Denzel and Marlene were living with Cloud and Tifa.
You’re just pissed that your argument is crap, and even that crap is declining in quality. What you’re saying is nothing more than your own personal opinion now.
And you still haven’t played VII.
I was not arguing that point asshole. I was simply telling you how long the time period was.
And the fact that you think this is “crap” further shows everyone just how much of a moron you are.
“Case of Tifa was about Tifa’s acceptance to the situation and how she learned to move on and live out her life.”
How about we ask the guy who wrote it what CoT is about.
Let my just copy/paste from Tres LTD FAQ on this site
Around the time of Advent Children Complete’s release, Kazushige Nojima — scenario writer of FFVII, AC/ACC, the On the Way to a smile stories, and numerous other FF projects — made the following comments about the Case of Tifa installment of On the Way to a Smile when asked, “How are Case of Tifa and Case of Barret? Would you say their meanings are that they’re redemption stories?”
Link to the Official site with question and answer here
(Translation by me)
“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”
Also, here’s an additional translation of Nojima’s comment by hitoshura:
“‘Episode Tifa’… first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”
i just think that is C/T Z/A the compilation show us that, maybe in ffvii is c/a but why did they put tifa and zack there? , after the compilation comes and ac/acc/doc show us that tifa and cloud are living together like a family (the profiles of the ultimania posted here by Mako say us this and aI really, really believe it) also CC show us the big love between zack and aerith, why do you want destroy it?…
thanks for this bye =D
XOXO