The Love Triangle of FFVII – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD
by Makoeyes987 September 25, 2009 0 comments
Ahh, the Love Triangle of Final Fantasy VII. It is arguably, the most passionately discussed topic of all of FFVII fandom. Going by the comments on this site, at least.
Today, we post the next article from his FAQ, written by Squall_of_SeeD. In this one, he’ll analyze the hot button topic of Cloud’s feelings and affections for the two heroines of FFVII: Aerith and Tifa. What do the creators and story have to say regarding Cloud’s feelings for the two? Anything? Squall_of_SeeD gives us the answer.
With great pleasure, we host this controversial, yet well written and insightful analysis. Enjoy!
EDIT: As expected, Squall_of_SeeD and I have received lot’s of feedback, both positive and negative, regarding this article. Squall_of_SeeD decided that it was necessary to address several of the additional points and critiques of his analysis that were mentioned, and with that, he has amended several portions of his FAQ regarding his analysis. You can read the newly edited article below.
EDIT2: Squall_of_SeeD is such a slave driver making me update this FAQ again, today, the eve of Halloween. But he’s just a stickler for completion. So again. Take a look at what else has been added XD
—————————————————————
Initially, I’d intended for this FAQ to ignore the Love Triangle
Debate like a plague. It succeeded in that for a good number of years, but updating it after an absence of more than three years from this fandom, I feel a need to address this topic.
Why? You know, I’m really not sure. Probably because it’s hard to call the FAQ’s analysis complete when I don’t even talk about what remains the most passionately and frequently debated aspect of the game more than 12 years after its release.
The Love Triangle Debate, of course, centers around whether Cloud had more romantic feelings toward Aerith or Tifa. Basically, who did he want to be with?
Twelve years after the release of Final Fantasy VII, the most passionately and frequently debated aspect of the game remains the Love Triangle Debate.
For those nine of you who don’t know, the Love Triangle Debate centers around whether Cloud had more romantic feelings toward Aerith or Tifa. Basically, who did he want to be with?
Those fans who prefer — or “‘ship”, as the verb goes — CloudxAerith are known in the fandom as Cleriths, while those who ‘ship’ CloudxTifa are called Clotis. That being said, obviously a Clerith may still argue that Cloti is canon, and a Cloti might argue the opposite if it’s what they believe.
Generally speaking though, those in both camps argue in favor of their preferred relationship as canon.
While I’ve had my preference since the beginning, it was initially based on my own preferences in women. More to the point, I couldn’t stand Aerith and adored Tifa. That’s still the case 12 years later, though it obviously doesn’t have to be the same for Cloud.
None of that is to say that I don’t like Aerith; just not in “that way,” if you get me. I simply prefer more somber and restrained females. Still, if you fear my declared preference for Tifa may bias my views in this analysis, that’s not an unreasonable concern.
However, in any public address, it’s necessary to state one’s personal views upfront. Otherwise, it becomes a question of honesty.
Whether I am credible I leave to each of you to decide.
I do believe this, though: You won’t find someone with no opinion on the LTD actually discussing the matter at length. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible.
Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process. This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis.
They must, of course, attempt to distance themselves as much as possible while drawing their conclusions, though. You are free to determine otherwise if not convinced, but I believe my three-and-a-half-year absence from this fandom has given me a degree of distance. I will tell you outright that I could not have objectively discussed this matter in 2005.
I believe I can do so now.
In any case, as said, I am a Cloti. Accommodating me and so many others, the original game’s developers designed it such that the player’s own choices influence who Cloud’s affection is greatest for in the original game.
The way several scenes play out are influenced by this, and, consequently, it left Cloud’s feelings ambiguous at the end of the game. As an additional consequence, it meant players would debate, disagree with and flame one another for more than the next decade since there was no definitive answer.
There were no official declarations in interviews, no scenes in the newer FFVII titles featuring Cloud and one of the ladies in an overtly romantic context, and no apparent end in sight to the blood feud that lay between fans of the two pairings.
The only statement about Cloud’s feelings that could be given with complete confidence is that he cared about both women very much. Now, however, I believe more than that can be done.
I believe there’s now a definitive answer.
The only statement about Cloud’s feelings that could be given with complete confidence is that he cared about both women very much. Now, however, more than that can be done.
There’s now a definitive answer.
No comments yet
Log in or Register
“I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.”
“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven.” –Cloud Strife
Except quotes like that kinda crush that dream don’t they?
Also I would like to know where people get numbers on what pairing has more fans…that takes into account actual accuracy?
And more importantly, well done Squall_of_Seed, well done. That was a beautifully rendered compliation of facts. Thank you.
“Also I would like to know where people get numbers on what pairing has more fans…that takes into account actual accuracy?”
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=cloti&word2=clerith
Cloti > Clerith by a factor of… seven? Can’t count.
ahmmm, Nice analysis, ahhh, it’s easier for my poor brain to accept the logic…
really, my poor brain had a difficulty in accepting the logic of Destiny Fulfilled’s
Love Triangle Essays/Analysis or whatever…..[NOTE: I’m not
reffering to all the essays they wrote, IMO, some make sense]
the case of barret analysis in DF is
kinda funny…… they just took a portion of Barret and Cid’s conversation and
explained it…. the most hilarious thing they wrote was the WACDONALDS
interview……..
It was a nice read! Thanks a lot for sharing.
Oh, and btw -)
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/index.php?showtopic=9686
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/index.php?showtopic=9686
^^ I don’t know why you posted this link, but it’s full of BS. They merely give empty rebuttal and no reliable arguments or facts. Please. It doesn’t count.
SoS, thanks so much for the insights. You might be a CloTi, but this article gives enough perspectives and explanation for the fact that Cloud is Indeed with Tifa.
Would you please add some details from Dissidia 012? Now that it’s already out there and provides some more events of Cloud and Tifa.
Thank you. You rock, SoS! XD
The fact that this article has way more comments than the first analysis of the actual story just screams, “FAIL!” to me.
I mean, the other article is actually relevant to the PLOT.
Perfect! Cloud and Tifa the official couple of Final Fantasy VII!
Very good worked! I agree with everything.
I have to say, I think it was a bad move to post this on a site that’s supposed to be neutral. This is a fan’s interpretation of the whole issue. Unless it were Nomura actually spurting out in an interview that: “CLOTI/CLORITH/CLUFFIE, CLACK/WTFEVER IS CANON!” that you were posting, I really see no other reason to post something like this. Keep it in the forums where it belongs, IMHO.
Where do you see a fan’s interpretation here? Did you *read* the article? The only interpretation or opinion in this, is from the creators.
The fact that everything still IS interpretational. I’ve seen arguements that can work for both sides very well. Not to mention, words can be turned around on themselves very easily as someone who has been in a lot of debates should know very well. (Not necessarily directed at you, just btw)
You can’t tell me that what the fan up there posted is 100% true because 1.) He’s not part of the FFVII staff, now is he? 2.) He’s had a 12 year-living opinion on the pairing already, how can you honestly tell me that his head/brain/opinon hasn’t caused him to read Nomura/Nojima/etc’s words so that it sounds perfectly Cloti no matter how he looks at it? The brain is a powerful thing.
No, it isn’t. An argument based on fact, can only be based in truth, and unless you live in a reality separated from everyone else, a fact shall remain a fact because it is based in objective truth and reality. If my premise is that, Mr. X asked for 40 dollars from the bank, and that’s what the bank teller validates and its in writing and in the bank records, then chances are its fact. There’s no “turning around” a definitive fact or statement. Nojima said he wrote Case of Tifa with his ideas and beliefs of what a marriage, family and romantic love are all about. That’s the context he wrote Cloud and Tifa in. READ THE ARTICLE AND QUOTE YOURSELF. Stop denying reality.
And anyone who says that they’re debating a premise without actually having an opinion on the subject is a liar. That makes no sense. By the very act of debate and discussion, you set yourself up for having a premise and opinion. If you’re looking at evidence and drawing a reasonable conclusion from it, you no longer are neutral because you are then taking the position of where the evidence takes you. In the end you take a position and support it.
An opinion doesn’t invalidate an argument if you actually support it with sound fact and analysis. You clearly have no idea what a factual debate entails. Stop turning around SoS’s honest opinion he shared up front in good faith, against him. It doesn’t diminish or invalidate any of what he just posted. Your ad hominem and straw mans are fail.
“Furthermore, Nojima identifies Aerith as a former potential romantic interest for Cloud (”Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith…“). Tifa, however, is identified as a current romantic interest for Cloud.”
By saying this he automatically makes it out that Tifa is the current love interest? No, what he is saying here is that Aerith and Cloud would’ve been more compatible, nothing more.
“Here, we have Nojima discussing Cloud and Tifa’s relationship, and he talks about it in terms of the two as a romantic couple. He speaks of them in the context of love, marriage and family. He suggests that the presence of the children of their family may be able to help them “work it out” — the way one might discuss trying to make a problematic relationship successful.”
I failed to see where he mentioned that they were being discussed in the context of a romantic relationship. A family I can see, but the romantic relationship, no. From what I can see, there isn’t any romance between Cloud and Tifa because Tifa is too worried about what Cloud thinks of her and her past as you can see in CoT, and Cloud is also out doing errands, hiding things from her, and so on and so forth.
Not to mention, think of the contest of this quote:
“Episode Tifa’… first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”
If we change the quote, “I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family,” it honestly doesn’t make sense that he would think Cloud and Tifa should be married or in a romantic relationship.
Here are two examples:
‘Episode Tifa’… first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. These problems make it obvious that Cloud and Tifa are in love and should get married. (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”
‘Episode Tifa’… first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. Given all of these problems, I really doubt a love relationship or marriage between them would work out very well. (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”
Which one makes more sense?
Also, if we look at the whole incident with the “sex under the HW” thing, I recall reading something where the team was thinking of actually having something similar to this, but they took it out because it would’ve been too suggestive and it would’ve gone too far. They were already pushing it with the language and Don Corneo. If they got rid of something like this, why on earth would they keep the apparently “obvious” sex under the highwind scene there? Not to mention, there are 3 different “under the highwind” scenes that you can get, which makes it optional because it’s based on your “relationship” or lack there-of with the other characters. Not to mention, if they have been intimate before, why on earth would they be so awkward around each other? Doesn’t something like that usually kind of make things a little different?
As for the KH crap not being legit, here’s a quote for you:
Nomura: In Mr. Nojima’s scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa’s connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, “If Cloud’s darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light”; in that sense, you can take it that Tifa isn’t really human. The reason Tifa doesn’t talk to anyone else besides Sora and Co. may be because she doesn’t exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can feely think for yourself about her. ~Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania
Nomrua said he wanted to leave it up to interpretation because he thought it would be more interesting.
“Cloud just has additional “undying thoughts” unique to him — and that was guilt. ”
But I thought Cloud was freed from guilt, so why on earth would he still have those “undying thoughts” if they were guilt? That makes absolutely no sense.
And to anyone who uses that: Cloud saved Tifa in ACC so he must love her, bullcrap. Are you saying if he wasn’t in love with her he would just let her die? I suppose he’s in love with Denzel and Barret, too. And also, if we’re going with that sort of logic, I take it Vincent must have the hots for Cloud? (sorry to break out at this one randomly. I thought I might as well get it out while I’m on the LT subject)
Those are just a few of my arguements. :\
I still stand by my belief that the LT is interpretational.
Ashley, your selective reading comprehension skills are truly admirable. You acknowledge the fact Nojima just stated Aerith as a potential love interest….but, then disregard the rest of the entire sentence? You are absurd. Here, read it again. And this time don’t just block out the rest of the text.
“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs)”
Who else in Case of Tifa does Nojima go into his views of romantic love, marriage and family? Use your common sense. How do you not, “see where he mentioned that they were being discussed in the context of a romantic relationship?” Or are you just completely blind to text and evidence that shatters your fandom world view? Cloud and Tifa were discussed and written in the context of marriage, and romantic love. That was Nojima’s intent. Do you not get that? If that’s the case, then clearly there is a blossoming relationship between the two. Regardless of if it will be difficult.
Stop skewing the text and read it as is. It’s okay! Just accept the fact. You’ll be okay. And stop twisting the Highwind scene. If you read the essay, again..the context of the scene is romantic and physical. The only question is how much. You need to accept the fact they were intimate. The fact they “toned the scene down” means that there is still somewhat of its original intent in the first place. They didn’t replace it or change it.
And Nomura said he wanted Tifa’s EXISTENCE to be up to interpretation. Not her status as Cloud’s LIGHT. The sentence, “If Cloud’s darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light” sets up the premise and fact of her existence. Sephiroth is undeniably Cloud’s darkness. By that fact, Tifa is then his light, unless you want to argue that somehow its “up to interpretation” Sephiroth is Cloud’s darkness. QUIT TWISTING WORDS. If Cloud’s darkness is Sephiroth (which it is) then Tifa is his light. Period. It’s a simple declarative statement.
And please keep the context of the “undying feelings” quote. God. That interview was BEFORE AC OR DC EVEN CAME OUT. It was a teaser quote. Stop riding that old ass train of thought. A teaser line about the movie before its plot was even released is not a statement of Cloud’s train of thought for the entirety of the Compilation post ACC.
Your arguments suck. Big time.
Ashley: “Not to mention, there are 3 different “under the highwind” scenes that you can get, which makes it optional because it’s based on your “relationship” or lack there-of with the other characters.”
I think Mako’s reply to your comments already sums up the most important points but let’s not forget that even if there are 3 possible “versions” of the Highwind scene, it’s the high affection that is referenced in the official sources (aka Ultimanias). Now.,I wonder why that happens if the scene is simply to be “up to interpretation”, hmm? Especially when the creators themselves have also admited it was their intention for the scene to be romantic and physical in the first place 😛
The “up to interpretation” might have had some ground of reasoning if you considered solely the original game (although, all in all, that only technically applies to disk 1). Why? Well, for example, there’s the The Lifestream event on disk 2 and everything that Cloud and Tifa say and share there happens no matter how baddly you treat Tifa in the first disk, so yeah, its not all that much for interpretation, IMO) but that’s not the case anymore, is it? And, as pointed in SoS’s “essay” and pointed out by several others here, all the factual evidence points in Cloud and Tifa’s direction.
Yeah…when your big response has lines like “Not to mention, there are 3 different “under the highwind”. You lose any and all credibility.
How so?
Asking “how so” further proves my point.
Either that or you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
And your attitude sucks big time, too. You’re totally freaking out because I personally see CloudxAerith to be canon. I never said you couldn’t feel that Cloti was canon, did I?
Also, it’s funny that you changed the quote.
“I don’t really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family”
He says he doesn’t intend to go about it that way. I’m sure he says this because he knows it would cause a fuss of some kind. But you can interpret that however you want, I don’t really care.
In my original comment, I never said anything about the arguements in the essay being stupid or anything of that nature. I was simply stating that I felt it was unnecessary for the site to post something written by a fan that concerned the LTD because this is a neutral site, and if that’s so, they shouldn’t be making either side feel offended, awkward, or out of place. It’s unfair, IMHO.
Because I simply said that I felt them posting this article was in bad taste, I was (for lack of a better word) attacked because obviously, anyone who doesn’t like this article is a Clerith. (This is true, but either way, everyone simply assumed. I had never actually stating my standing on the LTD until people started argueing with me. I had no intentions of starting a battle here because I honestly don’t care if you like Cloti, Cluffie (or whatever it’s called) or Clerith or whatever. Most of my FFVII loving friends are Cloti’s, actually.)
You think your selective reading comprehension and weak debate skills are worth “freaking out” over? Please, stop. Get over yourself. You’re the one weeping over the fact no one’s acknowledging your weak subjective evidences for your pairing. That’s your whole problem from the get go. You rely on “feeling.” You have no concept or understanding of what “objective analysis” means. Feelings are *irrelevant.*
And again, you can’t seem to read anything that shatters your shipper view. Do you not understand Nojima is talking about how he WROTE the story? That’s the entire context of the interview, so that means he’s saying that he didn’t really intend to go about his views on love, marriage or family in regards to the story. Meaning he did and it was unintentional. He’s talking about how he WROTE it, since it’s already done. His opinion of how “there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud” is part of his views on love, or marriage, or family. If he didn’t intend to go about it that way as you claim, then what was the point in him stating that fact in relationship to Cloud and Tifa? It’s like all reading comprehension just flew out your head and you can only see the sentence that references Aerith.
And way to go at backpedaling. You descried SoS’s opinion because he was a fan of Tifa and said it was automatically discounted because he was “biased” and unable to be objective, which he has more than proven to be. And again. You have no concept or understanding what “neutrality” means. This isn’t geopolitics, or wartime democracy. There’s nothing “neutral” about the plot or characterization of the Compilation of FFVII. There’s only fact and what the creators say. There’s an obvious answer and just because it hurts your pink feelings, doesn’t mean people are going to be mum about it. Anyone with common sense can see that, and if you don’t like the fact that someone who knows FFVII is calling it like he sees it and letting the readers see the sources for themselves then I don’t know what else to tell you.
Just to add something else to Mako’s reply since I think fairheartstrife said it all here:
“There’s also the fact that Nojima stated at the onset of Advent Children that no matter what else he decided on for a story he knew ONE definitive fact and that was Cloud would be with Tifa.” I think that pretty much says it all, IMO. And this is just another factual/official statement to add to so many that are out there and were either pointed out here or in SoS’s analysis.
Ashley, you might not agree with it (and you are more than free to ship whatever pairing that suits your personal feelings) but that doesn’t meant that there isn’t an answer already.
Being rude/offensive over other people’s comments while only skimming over their posts and solely submiting your own personal interpretation as a counter-argument (based solely on personal feelings and no official quotes or material whatsoever) isn’t really the best way to get your point across. Far from it, really.
Also, if you find SoS’s analysis to be so “unfair” as you say, you have already been told that you are more than welcome to write your own analysis (assuming it is based on fact and not personal feelings/perferences) and submit it to be hosted on the site like the Lifestream staff members have already pointed out.
“I still stand by my belief that the LT is interpretational.”
And that’s what it still is, in my opinion. However, the facts mainly point to Tifa, in ACC and beyond. They may not be the closest or most affectionate couple, but then, Cloud’s got massive personal issues throughout ACC, which are only starting to get sorted out by the end of the movie – and then it runs out of movie to make things obvious.
FFVII’s story is no more subject to interpretation than any other body of fiction where the creator/author/whatever has made it very clear their position on the matters. Harmonians still argue Harry/Hermione but Rowling isn’t re-writing the books. It’s not always what the “fan” wishes it to be. But fanon is just as fun, and just as varied. Canon doesn’t mean “better”. I really wish some people would get that…
Why is it bad to post it anyway? Write a good Clerith essay and that would probably get put up as well.
I highly doubt that.
You highly doubt that TLS will put up a well-written LTD analysis concerning Clerith? Aren’t we being a bit too judgmental?
Why not try it before saying that?
Or are you highly doubting that you can write a good Clerith essay?
For that I won’t be surprised. A good essay analysis can’t be done by someone who always looks subjectively into things. And getting emotionally attached to a fictional pairing.
I wonder, how does it feel to be judged by someone who knows nothing about you? 😀
I honestly don’t care because that’s the point: you don’t know anything about me, and can therefore not have a very sturdy opinion on me based on that.
I meant the first one, actually.
Honestly, I wasn’t saying anything bad in the least in my comment other than my opinion that posting something as News that was written by a fan that claims to know the truth to the LTD isn’t very fair to any of the Cleriths that may be on the site. What are they supposed to think? It’s like a slap in the face, especially coming from a website that’s supposed to be neutral. I never sat here and said anything about the arguements being bad at all in my original comment. But, of course, since I thought it was a bad idea to post it, I get attacked simply for pointing out my own personal opinion on it. Does this say anything to you?
Perhaps people are refusing to allow others to have an opinion on all this that differs from their own? Kind of reminds me of the rabid twilight fangirls.
If you’re offended by my statement up there, good for you. 🙂
Perhaps people are refusing to allow others to have an opinion on all this that differs from their own? Kind of reminds me of the rabid twilight fangirls.
If you’re offended by my statement up there, good for you. 🙂
Holy crap, I’ve never read something so hilariously hypocritical in my life. The Clerith fangirl who’s commenting angrily over the fact that someone dared challenge and call into question their precious pairing and boo hooing in the comments, is calling the other posters rabid as a Twilight fangirl. That’s interesting. Pot-Kettle at its best!
Since when was I being angry at all other than the fact that you’re treating me a bit disrespectfully? In my original comment, if you go back and read it, I said that I felt the article in itself being posted was in bad taste. I never said anything about the arguements being unreasonable, bad, whatever.
I never asked for a fight. I never commented on the LTD nor stated my own opinion. You’re the one who left a comment asking for a fight. I wasn’t being unreasonable, bitchy, whatever, at all. You’re the one who misread my comment, started a fight with me over what have you. It’s stupid. Honestly.
Ohhh, playing the victim now? That’s rich. Which debate fallacy are you going to pull out next? Or are you just gonna go out in a blaze of glory and invoke Godwin’s Law?
Your original comment is irrelevant. Did you, or did you not say this?
You can’t tell me that what the fan up there posted is 100% true because 1.) He’s not part of the FFVII staff, now is he? 2.) He’s had a 12 year-living opinion on the pairing already, how can you honestly tell me that his head/brain/opinon hasn’t caused him to read Nomura/Nojima/etc’s words so that it sounds perfectly Cloti no matter how he looks at it? The brain is a powerful thing.
Did you not just attack his credibility and objective analysis of the facts in the article because he’s a “Cloti” even though he only said he was a fan of Tifa individually and liked her character more? You took his honest declaration of his own opinion on the matter (which you’re SUPPOSED TO DO in a debate/discussion) and tried to discredit him with it because you didn’t like what he had to say. A blatant ad hominem attack.
Get the hell off your cross, Mary Martyr. Your opinion was baseless and accusatory. And you then hurled an insult at another commenter to boot. No one cares if you think it was in “bad taste” or not. The article is part two of a series regarding frequently asked questions regarding FFVII. You’re not the author nor in control. You chose to comment and complain about how your precious pairing was being misrepresented and *gasp* called not canon, because it isn’t. Get over yourself and move on with your life. If you’re gonna start throwing accusations and then twisting the facts because you don’t like them, people will call out the BS. And just because someone’s calling you and your points wrong, doesn’t mean you’re being attacked. Get some thick skin.
I don’t care what pairing you support, but being downright rude to someone about this matter isn’t helping. If anything, it seems to me like you’re the one with their head up their ass. You’re the one throwing the insults. Disagreement is fine here, but not being so rude.
Ashley’s comments a few times here and there weren’t that hot either, but that doesn’t justify you being an asshole. There’s a difference between having thick skin and not putting up with people’s bullshit.
This isn’t even about the pairing anymore.
“This isn’t even about the pairing anymore.”
Then don’t bother and save us all the trouble.
I’ll stop bothering when you people stop acting ‘holier-than-thou’ about what you support.
WITCH!!!! Burn The witch!!!
Oh noes!
Thanks for giving us that lecture on Hypocrisy 101. Telling someone not to be rude and then saying someone has their head up their ass and is an asshole. Bravo.
Just curious dear White Knight, but where were you when Ashley pulled he ad hominem regarding the author of the article? Since you seem so interested in civility and insults.
I don’t know her.
Hey, you’re the one that started the assholery. If you plan to stop acting as such, I’d be more than happy to talk civilly with you. However, you can’t seem to separate civil debate and arguing.
Because my life truly would not be complete without talking civilly to you..
Please…stop. The unwarranted self importance and and ‘holier-than-thou/white knight’ act is soooo cliche. Do you really think anyone cares, especially considering you just registered to defend your fellow rabid Clerith fan? You’re as transparent as a pane of glass.
Because my life truly would not be complete without talking civilly to you..
Please…stop. The unwarranted self importance and ‘holier-than-thou/white knight’ act is soooo cliche. Do you really think anyone cares, especially considering you just registered to defend your fellow rabid Clerith fan? You’re as transparent as a pane of glass.
Hahaha, I’m a Cloti fan. Aerith gets on my nerves, and besides, she dies. How is that a basis for me to support that relationship?
See, the sarcasm isn’t only making you seem like you’re too important to talk to me, which again shows that you’re making Cloti fans look like arrogant, snobbish people. Cut it out, if you would.
“making Cloti fans look like arrogant, snobbish people”
It only seems that way because we know we are better than you.
I suppose I should have expected a response like that, haha.
Sure you are. I’ll take your word on it.
And I give back what I’m given. If you’re so worried about Cloti fans looking arrogant and snobish, why don’t you work on yourself and stop trying to be an internet paladin, and trying to be the hero while subsequently doing the exact same behavior you’re admonishing?
Hypocrisy gives Clotis a bad rap too. We wouldn’t want that now, would we?
I am.
Hypocrisy? You’re the one that got very defensive about supporting Cloti (resorting to insults is a big clue there) while attacking a Clerith fan. Surely that’s devoid of hypocrisy!
Am I saying I’m totally better and never in the wrong? Course not. Fact is though, it doesn’t help when we attack Clerith fans in such a strong manner. My rude behavior I apologize for, but my behavior does not generalize to all Cloti fans.
Haha…
Okay, whatever you say, fdjsak. I’ll be sure to be a shining example on the internet so the Cloti Party doesn’t get generalized. Because we’re not individuals at all. We’re only judged and evaluated by group labels and identifiers based on who we like to pair together.
I just hope my Cloti membership card doesn’t get revoked for this…
When people refer to Cloti fans in general, they’re going to go by what they see the most, and from what I’ve seen, it seems like Cloti fans are a liiiittle too uptight about it.
If someone judges people by their pairing preference and not by their individual actions, then they’re already a lost cause.
I suppose so.
*is only
It’s only irrelevant because you want me to be the bad person here, right?
Like I said, you’re the one who came at me, assuming I didn’t read the article. If you hadn’t replied me, I never would’ve said those things. I was keeping them to myself for a reason, but when you ask/imply something about me, I’ll say the truth.
You’re the one getting all uppity. I’m trying to get this fight to end and here you are treating me like I’m trying to start a bunch of drama. I’m not trying to start a war or anything. I even said it was my opinion, which you should know, opinions are not facts. You’re the one who got offended/angry with my opinion as if I were stating it were fact.
I assumed you didn’t read the article because you complained about the article being in bad taste and we were posting it JUST because it was the LTD, and you failed to even acknowledge it was part of a set. You seem to keep ignoring every single thing that proves your position wrong.
The only who was “uppity” was you, trying to dictate the content of a site, and not bothering to even read the article that says its part of a set, not the entirety. Not only that, but then you attack the author because you don’t like his analysis, not even bothering to put forth your own accurate and objective analysis to the facts.
Opinions may not be facts, but a legitimate opinion has to be BASED in fact. I could have the opinion that cancer is good for the soul but that would be based on ZERO fact.
And how exactly did I attack him? I said the mind is a powerful thing. I didn’t say: OH HE’S A COMPLETE IDIOT AND ANYTHING HE SAYS IS SOOOO WROOOONG FFF BAAAW. I gave my opinion on this, and if he would’ve been someone else, I would’ve felt the same way.
I simply said that POSTING the article was in bad taste. If I led you to believe otherwise in my previous replies, I apologize. But the fact it was posted on what I had believed to be a neutral site seemed to be in bad taste to me, in my honest opinion.
What part of “ad hominem” do you not understand? You attacked his honestly given opinion and his objectivity, rather than the points in the article. Your opinion is baseless and based on you assuming he was a Cloti, which he wasn’t. He just had a preference for Tifa.
So posting a set of articles that are part of a set is bad taste? Well your opinion is duly noted. If it’s so “neutral” and up to interpretation, you should be able to then argue the evidence, write your own article and not put up strawmen to distract the issue. You’re more than welcome to try and debate the actual facts, not the person who’s accumulated them and objectively assessed them in good faith. Neutrality doesn’t mean there’s no answer. It means going to where ever the evidence takes you. As its been stated time and time again.
It being part of a set was supposed to make it more tasteful? The subject itself is a rather controversial one that could affect either side of the LTD.
Well, I am sorry if I offended him in any way by making that statement. I wasn’t saying those things based on a personal notion of what he was like, only one how the human brain can work. If that statement itself bothered him, or anyone for that matter, then maybe they should take your advice and get thicker skin? I don’t know, I’m not a doctor.
Debate and intelligent discussion thrive on controversy. Why would someone treat one of the most discussed aspects of the Compilation of FFVII as the elephant in the room, and ignore it, when everyone and their mom knows its being talked about not just by fans, but the creators themselves? Because it might hurt the feelings of fans? If you’re so emotionally invested in a pairing that your feelings would get hurt by reading something that you don’t agree with or makes them not canon, then you need to take a step back and evaluate yourself.
Your apology is accepted, but if you’re going to try to offer criticism, you should perhaps try to make it constructive and relevant to the topic. An ad hominem attack based on your own pairing preference because you see some vast Cloti conspiracy (even though again, he only stated his honest opinion of liking Tifa) doesn’t imply bias. How is it bias when he’s putting up the evidence himself and quoting the Japanese translations of what’s been said? You’re misrepresenting him and offering empty criticism which is borderline insulting, considering he’s the one doing the hard work contributing and putting up the info to be read.
Eh, I guess I’m in the wrong when it comes to the constructive criticism part. I usually try to be better about that sort of thing. :\
But, like I’ve been saying for the past couple of replies, I’m just trying to stick up for the other side of it. Perhaps I will write my own essay *shrug* I was actually thinking about it last night, but school is a bummer (especially since I’m taking an A.P. U.S. History course right now and I’ve had a crap-load of homework, FFFF COMPLAIN MOAR). I’m also not looking forward to digging through all those interviews, oh good gosh! D:
And something I would love to do is get a translator that isn’t on either side so that I know the translation isn’t being “altered” in any way, shape or form by Clerith, or Cloti’s alike considering that things do get lost in translation, especially considering some languages don’t have a word for something or because one word could mean so many things and the only way to know for 100% sure is the context (or, in some cases, the tone the person has when speaking)
Well that’s big of you to say, and that right there is a credit to your maturity right there.
However, I have to ask, what makes you so doubtful of the validity or content of the translations on the subject? If it’s because of what they say, that’s hardly fair at all. They’ve been translated twice, and come out the same. Hitoshura has been translating FFVII content for fans, for years. Literally, years. When AC was nothing more than a rumor appearing in Dengeki. Why is it suddenly fans are now worried and concerned of bias or them being “altered” when they suddenly say something they don’t like? Again, that’s an attack of his character and if you don’t trust his translations, why weren’t they being checked or distrusted in the past?
When hito translated Lifestream White, where Aerith states she thought Cloud as a koibito/beloved, was there any doubt then? People seem to have selective moments of mistrust when it comes to the topic of the LT and it really annoys him, and me to no end. If you’re gonna criticize at least do it consistently.
Anyways, good luck with your studies. That’s a good sign you’re in advanced placement and all, so keep up the good work.
A Clerith essay wouldn’t have any strength to it.
As much as I hate the LT being discussed, especially to such an extent on a, well what should be, non-bias FFVII informative website…this was a great read, Although I don’t “ship” anything I know facts when they are laid out in front of me and this is what these are, there is no way to argue these, no matter how hard the fans may try this is it, this is the sort of things we have been presented with by the creators, this is their intentions. Some people just need to get off their high horse and realise what they thought isn’t right…and stop twisting things.
But anyway, thanks for the proper translations of the “like a mother” statement about Tifa, it’s cleared some things up for me. 🙂
I see no point in arguing about Cloud’s true love.
Cloud’s true love is determined by the player throughout the course of FF7 which explained clearly by SE. There isn’t any set-in-stone canonical evidence for any of these shippings. In fact, Cloud seems to have romantic interest in both girls during the game, and neither Clerith nor Cloti can deny it.
Good job, smart one, did you even read the article, or look at the fact that this site and writer wasn’t just covering FFVII but the entire compilation itself? Try actually knowing what you’re talking about before talking out of your neck because you make no sense whatsoever.
I love you Mako =’D
i posted this comment on clerith website but no one against me, that make me think clerith is more openminded than cloti, sigh…
What does openmindedness have to do with what the creators and storyline have to say about the truth?
It’s ironic how people are saying the Clerith are more open minded. 8D
Um… that would be because you were preaching to the choir?
Calm down!!!!!!! So funny to see people getting mad at something that is not important at all. LOL.
BTW, the entire compilation is derived from FF7, so the compilation will never contradict to the original storyline, if originally, SE is decided to let the player choose Cloud’s love interest, then the compilation will only strengthen this concept. Try to think logically next time.
Says the person who’s commenting on it.
Protip: Feigning disinterest in the subject that you’re actively participating in to prove your superiority is a guaranteed way to fail epically.
“the entire compilation is derived from FF7, so the compilation will never contradict to the original storyline”
LOLOL oh wow. That’s a good one. You make me laugh heartily.
Last Order, Before Crisis, and CC’s telling of the Nibelheim event say hi. Have you been sniffing glue or something? Because you’re just digging yourself a deeper hole here. Keep trying.
OHYOU
Mr. Mako Person, you are scaring people.
WIN.
The player only gets to make the decision on disc one. After Cloud has his mental break down on disc two there are no more choices and the narrative takes the reigns from then on.
Also, bad boy, Mako! Stop barking! You’re keeping the neighbors up.
Mako EPIC WIN!! haha!!
I’d have to disagree. Cloud actually decides who he loves. There’s a point in FFVII in-game where the player loses all “control” over Cloud–oh, right about the time the Lifestream even takes place, and he pieces himself back together. At this point Cloud IS Cloud and makes it known his feelings. HIS feelings. Not the players, and HIS feelings aren’t up to interpretation. Nojima made that clear.
The reason you’ll find Clerith sites more open to the “no canon” argument is that they’d rather have NO CANON versus CLOTI CANON. **shrug** ‘Shippers are like that. If they can’t have him, no one will **MWUAHAHAHAHAHA** /evil laugh.
But seriously, if left ONLY at FFVII you may have a point as it could be construed as ambiguous by the nature of “control” the player has throughout disc 1. However, COMPILATION in its entirety wipes out that option. Crisis Core alone sets up the “couples” quite distinctly. Add onto that ACC and the novellas and it’s first grade “Hop on Pop” comprehension skills required–at best. SE couldn’t have been more specific if they’d drawn a picture…oh wait… they did. 😉
I would like a link to an interview or whatever where Nojima tells us what Cloud’s true feelings are.
Try reading the first two pages of the article.
There are several in the article SoS posted. There’s also the fact that Nojima stated at the onset of Advent Children that no matter what else he decided on for a story he knew ONE definitive fact and that was Cloud would be with Tifa. I still don’t understand how that statement alone didn’t end this debate years ago. But it won’t matter what links I show you, because you’re a shipper. I can tell from the “tone” of your responses.
‘Shippers don’t listen. They are emotionally invested in a pairing (even if it’s fictional) and there’s no amount of black and white proof that will change that. **shrug**
i think she will shut up now…. LOL… i mean, LOL, did
she/he read the article before posting?,
Someone didn’t read what they were commenting on! Tut-tut.
so true.
That was pretty long, but I completely agree with you on all points! I have thought that the relationship between Cloud and Tifa was the way to go. I thought that Zack and Aerith were a great couple, tragic that they both died; but that’s how it should be. Let them be in peace.
Thanks so much, you must have put a lot of time in this!
It was awesome to read it, thanks! =D
Oh, I really loved this, So Long! and fun to read, I really love it and its very awesone, Good Job!! Oh and the comment are the best part here, why? Somebody will always take this like an insult!! And start to commenting some &%$ and that is really really fun!!! Im really happy!!! Squal_of_SeeD its my new hero now!!!!
The article was from a clinical perspective. If that’s not enough, what do you people want.
@Lily, the fact that you wrote under the influence of your ‘disgusted’ sentiments make whatever ‘counter-arguments’ you made moot.
For the record, I’d just like to know that if you believe this article is overly ‘cloti’, you’re free to write one from an even more neutral point of view. See this page for more information: http://thelifestream.net/staff-wanted/. Summary, send us a heads up, link to your other writings, and put your article up for review. If it’s properly written, based on factual information and written from a neutral point of view (without straw men or personal opinions or preferences), we’ll put it on the site as well. And this doesn’t go only for LTD-related articles, but anything.
And if you do not believe this article is written from a neutral point of view, or mis-quotes or mis-translates its sources, you’re free to send us a complaint, either through the contact form or through the forums. I’ll try and keep Mako away from it, xD.
I think that another article exploring the LTD from another perspective (assuming it is written with factual evidencle) might actually be quite interesting. I would definitely give it a read myself.
Oh btw Ashley. Because you are unlikely to find this out on your own. There are only two versions of the Highwind scene. Not 3.
Getting something as basic as that wrong screams to me a delusional shipper who has zero credibility on the subject of FFVII in general and the LTD specifically.
You know I actually found that “3 version” statement a bit odd myself (I only saw and knew about two possible versions: a high affection and a low affection one) but since I wasn’t 100% sure, I decided to give her to benefit of the doubt. But thanks for clearing that one up, Vendel *salutes*
No problem. I love to help people……
Ashley, it’s good that you want to stand up for the other side, and it’s good that you were mature, but you need to be careful of what you say and listen to what the other person says.
Also as for Nojima’s statement, he wasn’t saying, “I don’t intend to go into how I think a love relationship would work out between the two.” he’s saying what Mako said, “I don’t intend to go into my views on love and marriage, but I kinda did…” that’s why he laughed. Why would he be laughing at after saying, “I don’t plan to say how I think a love relationship would work out between Cloud and Tifa.”?… that’s… not funny o.o
As for the “NOJIMA SAID THINGS WOULD GO BETTER WITH AERITH!” argument. He said PERHAPS! PERHAPS! That does not sound definite to me. And if he’s talking about Aerith as a hypothetical love interest… well why would he be doing that if he wasn’t all ready talking about Tifa being Cloud’s love interest? You have to look at the quote as a whole and not just certain parts of it.
Anyway, as Mako said, good luck with your studies and I look forward to a Clerith essay should you write one.
I should add that this is so twisted from him to add that there’s a great burden there… Why? Because Aerith’s dead, so I guess this is the burden he talks about XD Talk about a twisted point of view. Oh my, Nojima, you bad boy =)
Thank you for saying that about the perhaps!
And Ashley, if you *are* going to write a differing viewpoint, you need to be much more careful with your statements. If you’re going to argue interpretation, you have to argue based on the words that are actually *there*, which is what the author of this essay has done. You can’t interpret based on what you want the creators to have said. One good indicator that you’re not doing that is if you have to exchange entire phrases to make your point. If you want to go back to the original Japanese and argue a translation point, that’s one thing. But if you instead want to argue based on what would happen if Nojima had said X instead of Y, you’re off course.
To clear a few matters up, there are only two versions of the Highwind scene. All rumors to a third are false, and I have confirmed this myself through manually editing the value which affects the scene.
Secondly, while all four versions of the date are shown in the Ultimanias, only the ‘high’ version of the scene is shown, and in the FF 20th Aniv Ultimania, is listed as a vital scene to the story.
Thirdly, Nojima’s statement on CoT was from this year, in reflection of how he wrote it. As for the sentence about Aerith, do not forget the ‘but’ that starts the second Clause about her own burden.
Lastly, what Squall Of Seed has done here is largely just to repeat various quotes, both in and out of universe, from official sources. He has kept what little editorializing on the quotes short, sensical, and parsimonious, making sure they connect and make sense with other quotes and the rest of the story.
Lastly, I would suggest that if you still have issues with his analysis, you bring up those issues in particular, and do so in the forums.
And for the record, fdj, what you said about the ‘worst of the fandom’ being seen as the whole, recall that it works both ways, and that there are a lot of less than pleasant types to be seen at a certain forum set up explicitly for the purpose of promoting the C/A pairing, in which all things pro C/T are outright banned.
Aaah, thanks. I thought that there was a high, medium, and low version, but I’ve been proven wrong. Oops, I fail. >_<
Just wanted to say thanks for the read- finally got around to doing it. 😀
“I honestly don’t care because that’s the point: you don’t know anything about me, and can therefore not have a very sturdy opinion on me based on that.
I meant the first one, actually.
Honestly, I wasn’t saying anything bad in the least in my comment other than my opinion that posting something as News that was written by a fan that claims to know the truth to the LTD isn’t very fair to any of the Cleriths that may be on the site. What are they supposed to think? It’s like a slap in the face, especially coming from a website that’s supposed to be neutral. I never sat here and said anything about the arguements being bad at all in my original comment. But, of course, since I thought it was a bad idea to post it, I get attacked simply for pointing out my own personal opinion on it. Does this say anything to you?
Perhaps people are refusing to allow others to have an opinion on all this that differs from their own? Kind of reminds me of the rabid twilight fangirls.
If you’re offended by my statement up there, good for you. 🙂 ”
LOL
Being offended on the internet is stupid. :monster: But yes, comparing someone to a Twilight fan, albeit subtly, is downright rude. DON’T DO IT AGAIN, OR I WILL SIC EDWARD CULLEN ON YOU.
Or I can just show you this picture.
http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_430xN.82956948.jpg
Twilight aside, I never said you weren’t allowed to have an opinion. I have an opinion, you have an opinion, we all have opinions. However, before throwing in my face about opinions and whatnot, check out what you just said on your very first comment.
“I have to say, I think it was a bad move to post this on a site that’s supposed to be neutral. This is a fan’s interpretation of the whole issue. Unless it were Nomura actually spurting out in an interview that: “CLOTI/CLORITH/CLUFFIE, CLACK/WTFEVER IS CANON!” that you were posting, I really see no other reason to post something like this. Keep it in the forums where it belongs, IMHO.”
First of all, you already assumed that this neutral site is already taking sides on the issue by posting this. This is wrong. If you paid attention and looked at the article before, it shows that this one is a part of a whole. The site didn’t just post this LTD article from SoS. It’s also an ANALYSIS. Like, you know, they used logic and stuff, and actually cited reliable, canon sources? Which brings us to my next point…
It’s not a fan interpretation. Did you even read the article? It’s an analysis. Meaning, it’s a study. The article based its opinion on facts established on the issue, not vague interpretative things like the presence of a flower field in Dissidia or a peanut in Cloud’s hair. Interpretation and analysis are two different things.
The thing about having opinions is… most of the time, people need to have a solid ground to base their opinions on. Obviously for us, you didn’t read the article (at the time you made that comment, at least), which made everyone jump at your post. This is because your opinion is baseless; if you made it based on a comprehensive scrutiny of the article, then everyone will be a lot nicer to you about your opinion about posting this being a bad move. M’kay?
Now, I have no idea what’s going on here now, and I cba to jump in, so yeah… Carry on, everybody. :monster:
A peanut in Cloud’s hair, lolwut?
Anyways, yeah, sorry about the Twilight comment. I was just getting a little frustrated, though that’s no excuse for calling names.
Well, we’ve already had silly things used as interpretative evidence for Clerith, like that lens flare in AC/C. I’m not surprised if a peanut in Cloud’s hair would be jumped at as a clue into which Cloud somehow got the peanut on his hair because he had sex with Aerith in a flower field where peanuts are also growing.
Or something.
(Personally, I’d take that as a CloudxReno clue, but that’s just me. :P)
LOL Don’t worry about it. I wasn’t as offended as I let on, really. I don’t really know what’s going on now, because all these posts look confusingly arranged, so I can’t be bothered to read them yet. But I guess I can see why you’d be frustrated.
Just don’t let the internet get to you. 😀 So, yeah, that’s all.
As well written and awesome as the essay is (and this is from someone who doesn’t ship either Cloud/Aerith or Cloud/Tifa), I can’t help but think it was a poor decision to post such obvious wank bait.
For whatever reason, people get far too attached to wanting their ship to be canon, and well…the love triangle is the best example of this. Tbh, I don’t think it matters who Cloud ended up with – it doesn’t affect the main core of the story, which has got bugger all to do with the love lives of the various characters.
In theory, it doesn’t affect the story. In practice, certain ships do ruin the story, as asserting them as ‘canon’ requires a complete destruction of the facts and characters presented therein, sometimes making them into assholes and doormats in the name of a ship.