Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ
by Glenn, The Twilight Mexican April 5, 2011 0 comments
• Is the Dissidia FF series a prequel to the first Final Fantasy game?
Yes. The end of cycle 013 of Dissidia alludes to the opening of the original Final Fantasy, and is referenced as such in the Dissidia Final Fantasy Ultimania’s “Link to the Original” section for FF1.
Thus, Sage Lukahn’s prophecy of the coming of the Warriors of Light was fulfilled in the game’s ending.
Also, Cosmos Report 10 — as well as the text-only portion of Report 7 in Dissidia 012 — spoke of the coming of the Warriors of Lights as something that had not yet come to pass. This would not be the case if Dissidia were other than a prequel to the first FF, as the final sequence of events in the original Final Fantasy changed history such that there never even was a prophecy concerning the coming of the Warriors of Light.
Several lines within the first Dissidia’s script allude to the fact that the conflict of the first Final Fantasy had not yet reached its conclusion. For example, in Shade Impulse Chapter 2′s second part, Garland says to Golbez:
Given the ending of Final Fantasy, where the link between Garland and Chaos had been severed thanks to the actions of the Warriors of Light, comments such as these would be out of place. Also, Garland says this to Golbez as well:
This doesn’t lend itself much to the possibility that this is the Garland who had been freed from the cycle of time depicted in Final Fantasy.
With all this evidence from the scenario itself, it would seem that Dissidia takes place before the storyline of Final Fantasy. The fact that the Warrior of Light is created during the events of tDissidia’s cycle actually cements this.
He didn’t exist before the Dissidia war, and, thus, couldn’t have been involved in the conflict depicted in the first Final Fantasy prior to being involved in the conflict that is depicted in the Dissidia games.
• If the Dissidia FF series is a prequel to the first Final Fantasy, how is it that, in the ending of Dissidia, the Warrior of Light crosses the lake to Cornelia when the bridge shouldn’t be there until after he and the other three Warriors of Light kill Garland at the Chaos Shrine?
The Warrior of Light isn’t shown crossing any bridge there, nor is any bridge shown. He’s just shown walking along the lakeshore.
In all likelihood, he took a walk around the area, saw that he couldn’t cross the lake there, then headed west to the mountain range that connects to the Cornelia area. In the opening FMV for Final Fantasy Origins, the blue Warrior of Light is, indeed, shown crossing through a mountain range and fighting a dragon there prior to arriving at Cornelia.
• Is the Dissidia FF series canon?
Despite the heroes and villains not being manikins, is this enough to indicate that Dissidia is canon to the FF series as a whole? There are, after all, a number of elements that fans have noted don’t quite match up between the two.
Whether it be Terra and Kefka having magic again, Cecil being able to fly, or Cecil being able to freely switch between his Paladin and Dark Knight job classes, there are a number of concerns fans have raised since the first Dissidia was released. Before addressing those specific issues with Cecil and Terra, I would like to speak to the general idea of Dissidia being canon to the rest of the FF series.
Given the numerous references to continuity found within the story, and its direct link to the plots of Final Fantasy V and the first Final Fantasy, it would seem to, indeed, be related to them. The Dissidia FF Ultimania references the numerous plot connections and allusions each character makes within the story, which ties them to their past experiences and adventures from their previous games.
The Museum profiles for each character and summon also refer to their backstory from the past games as well.
More telling of Dissidia’s status within Final Fantasy is the commentary from the creators. In the Dissidia FF Ultimania interview with Tetsuya Nomura, he said:
“Although this game is a Final Fantasy installment it’s not an RPG, so I was expecting a more somber response, but the responses from the fans was a lot more enthusiastic than I expected.
Therefore, this game has been classifed as a true Final Fantasy installment.”
Furthermore, Yoshinori Kitase, the producer for series, said the following in his blog while offering his final thoughts on the western release of the first Dissidia:
“I had been involved with the FINAL FANTASY series for several years, and before I knew it I somehow became a part of DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as well! (laugh) When I found out that the young staff members originally from the KINGDOM HEARTS team were making this game, I thought it sounded like a really fun project.
Dissidia means ‘conflict’ or ‘disagreement’ in Latin.
‘Gaiden’(side story or spin-off) made the game feel too distant, and we wanted to set the right tone for DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY; it isn’t a numbered title, but has just as much spirit as a main story.“
This solidifies Dissidia’s status as a full installment of Final Fantasy even further.
Finally, around the same time, the director of Dissidia, Takeshi Arakawa, made the following statement on Kitase’s blog:
“As a rule we were extremely careful to treat DISSIDIA FINAL FANTASY as a genuine entry in the FINAL FANTASY series. FINAL FANTASY is an RPG series, and we were very aware that transitioning to the action genre would be a risk for the development team and fans alike.”
All that said, there have been numerous points brought up by fans to contend that Dissidia is not within continuity, nor intended to be. Most prominently is an earlier comment from Arakawa, in which he stated:
“Dissidia: Final Fantasy’s story is not directly linked to the ‘FF’ stories these characters come from. However, we have designed it so that, as you get closer to the game’s ending, there will be some kind of link you can see relating to each one of them. Also, although this is a different world and story, the characters will keep their recognizable personalities so fans can rest assured. (Laughs)”
The implication many, then, have taken is that the characters present in Dissidia are more akin to the cameos of Kingdom Hearts. This conclusion is inaccurate, however.
Though this statement from Arakawa implied that there would be no plot relation between Dissidia and the rest of the FF series, the game itself proved otherwise given Dissidia’s status as a prequel to the first Final Fantasy game and its strong relationship to FFV’s story through Shinryu and the Interdimensional Rift.
As well, in Dissidia, Exdeath demonstrates the personality he gained after becoming Neo Exdeath in FFV’s final battle. Previously, he had sought to conquer and rule the universe instead.
After being consumed by the Void, Exdeath became obsessed with sending everything there. This objective continues in Dissidia.
Other developments from previous games are apparent within Dissidia, if not directly spelled out in the Ultimania. For example, Firion’s loss of comrades in the past, Squall’s promise with Rinoa, and Cloud’s inability to save others before.
Arakawa’s earlier comment — which came a couple of months before Dissidia was even released in Japan — was rendered obsolete and inaccurate by the game itself, if not by the later comments from the developers, including his own.
For that matter, there really aren’t many links between the story of Dissidia and the other Final Fantasy titles that directly influences the past entries in the series. That claim really only applies to the original FF and FFV.
The biggest connection most of the other games have to Dissidia in terms of its plot is a connection to the Interdimensional Rift, made apparent by Gilgamesh’s appearances and the accompanying explanations in FFVIII and FFXII — thus, establishing that all the FF worlds, including those in different universes and time periods, are accessible from the dimensional hub that is the Rift.
For that matter, the various worlds of the Final Fantasy series are said in-game to have been brought together and joined by the gods’ power. At the end of the game, the worlds are restored and the heroes return to where they belong.
That alone establishes a difference between Dissidia and Kingdom Hearts, where the FF characters’ home world was Hollow Bastion/Radiant Garden.
Other continuity concerns among fans include those mentioned at the beginning of this quandary: Terra still having her magical powers in Dissidia, Cecil freely changing between Dark Knight and Paladin, and Cecil’s ability to fly in one cutscene of Dissidia.
In the case of Terra’s powers, despite magic disappearing from her world at the end of FFVI, it’s not that peculiar that she still have her powers in the same setting where a host of dead villains have already been resurrected by a cosmic entity referred to as a god. It may sound like “A wizard did it,” but that’s pretty much what it is.
In any case, the same question would also apply about Kefka, who had become the source of all magic on FFVI’s world before being killed. If he has been restored to life and with even a limited degree of the Warring Triad’s powers he possessed previously, then Terra simply being given back her powers should be a simple enough feat — if not, in fact, a direct result of Kefka’s own resurrection, seeing as how she lost her powers in FFVI when he died.
In any case, if one is going to make a stink over Terra having her powers during this game, they might as well ask why Tifa can apparently use magic without having materia with her, or demand an explanation for why Yuna has access to her aeons again, despite her chapter of the story making it clear that her pilgrimage — and, thus, the loss of her aeons — is in the past tense for her.
Call it “A wizard did it” if you insist, but look at most of the plot of Dissidia. Two gods, in fact, did quite a bit. One of the pawns in their war having access to magic so that she can be a useful soldier is hardly something to break into fits over.
As for Cecil, though we don’t see him freely transition between Dark Knight and Paladin in Final Fantasy IV, he was also just learning to conquer his inner darkness during that game. After its events were over, it makes sense that he wouldn’t deny what is part of himself rather than running from it his whole life — especially given the balance he should have in order to be a good king.
Something of a theme from SE’s titles has been that darkness isn’t defeated by destroying it, but by maintaining a balance between it and light. This is a highly prevalent theme that is shown in Final Fantasy III, the Kingdom Hearts series, and it also plays a large role in Dissidia FF’s overall plot.
Cecil’s ability to switch between darkness and light while — as he says — drawing guidance from both is yet another example of that theme.
In any case, the switch itself doesn’t defy any internal logic from Final Fantasy IV’s plot. After all, he magically changed from Dark Knight to Paladin in an instant once in that game as part of the story.
Finally, Cecil’s ability to fly during one scene isn’t really as alarming as it might seem at first. During his battle with Golbez in Destiny Odyssey scene 75, he was attacking in a manner very similar to his EX Burst, Soul Shift.
During Soul Shift, Cecil flies. As EX Modes are comparable to the Trances of Final Fantasy IX and the Limit Breaks of Final Fantasy VII, our explanation for Cecil’s ability to fly is presented right there.
Tapping into one’s spiritual energy has even allowed Cloud to briefly fly while performing Omnislash Version 5/6 in Advent Children/Advent Children Complete.
All available evidence points to Dissidia being a true Final Fantasy installment that’s not only part of the main series, but one that also fits into continuity and whose developers consider it canon. As well, despite early misdirection from Arakawa that preserved some of the plot’s bigger surprises, it would appear Dissidia was treated as such from the beginning of development.
Dissidia is a different animal than Kingdom Hearts, where the FF characters featured were merely cameos represented by an alternate universe’s versions of them (Auron being the sole exception). It is undoubtedly as canon to the lives of its characters as their original games, as well as a canon installment in the Final Fantasy series itself.
• What are the crystals of the warriors of Cosmos?
The crystals are the embodiment of the harmonious power wielded by Cosmos, the goddess of harmony, as bestowed to her warriors. According to Lightning’s narration at the beginning of Chapter 1 of Dissidia 012’s Treachery of the Gods story, the crystals were initially intended to provide the warriors of Cosmos with power comparable to that of Cosmos and Chaos once they had matured the power by honing it in battle.
As seen throughout the Destiny Odyssey stories of the first game, each crystal could only manifest to a hero when their strength and resolve was at its peak while facing off against their respective nemesis. In so doing, the hero proved themselves worthy of wielding a portion of Cosmos’s power and developed it to its apex for their use. It would then manifest for them in a form unique to each of them.
During cycle 013, the crystals gained an additional purpose, however.
Cosmos ultimately surrendered her power to the heroes in order to fully put an end to the cycle of conflict. Due to her decision to actually fight for a moment at the end of cycle 012 in order to save the Warrior of Light’s life, she was left in a highly weakened state at the beginning of cycle 013.
This is because she normally devoted almost all of her power to maintaining the stability of the world that served as the battleground for Dissidia. When she used her powers in such a drastically different manner, she caused her own death, as explained in Cid of the Lufaine’s narration at the end of Chapter 8 of Treachery of the Gods:
of harmony. Her divine power flows outwards in an
endless stream–a soothing current to suppress the
violent and destructive energy of the god of discord.
But in this battle, the long-standing rules were
shattered. In defiance of fate, the goddess of
harmony chose to divert her power from its eternal
task. She sought to protect the lives of her
chosen heroes, and invited her own demise.”
By giving her power to her chosen warriors again — in order to actually manifest their crystals — while in this weakened state in cycle 013, she made her own permanent death possible. This was deliberate, however, planned by she and Golbez in the second cutscene from Report 7:
Cosmos: “And you are?”
Golbez: “I am an ally of Chaos. However, I have come bearing you a
message, and nothing more.”
Cosmos: “A message? Very well, let us hear your words.”
Golbez: “You do not doubt my intentions?”
Cosmos: “My warriors have yet to rise from their slumber. The first blow
in this new war has not yet been struck. You have been deliberate in the
timing of your arrival. I assume that before my chosen awake, and the
battle begins, there is something you feel that I should know.”
Golbez: “In the previous battle, you fell before your minions were
defeated. By the rules of this conflict, the heroes of harmony should
have been destroyed along with you. However, they remained upon this
world, and received purification.”
Cosmos: “They did?”
Golbez: “With the divine energy that maintains this realm. You unleashed
your power– set it free for the sake of your chosen.”
Cosmos: “Ah… This explains much– why I feel so weakened.”
Golbez: “You are weakened, and the reason why is that your minions yet
bear the power you surrendered.”
Cosmos: “Yes. I sense it. I feel my energy burning brightly within them,
as well as its purpose.”
Golbez: “However, have you considered the consequences should you again
decide to share your divinve strength in this diminished state…”
Cosmos: “I choose my path, knowing what may come. Knowing what the future
may hold, and what’s at stake.”
Golbez: “If you have indeed embarked upon this course, then I shall
depart–there is nothing left for me to say. The depth of your resolve
is… admirable.”
They schemed the matter further in a scene from cycle 013, as seen in Destiny Odyssey I-3 of the first game:
Cosmos: “I am. As long as the crystals shine, they will survive.”
Golbez: “You would risk everything. Such conduct is unbecoming of a goddess.”
Cosmos: “…”
Golbez: “Discord or harmony…the victor matters not. The dragon arises; the
cycle continues. The gods will live again, as will their champions, and
conflict will begin anew. Yet, if the cycle itself is as transient as the lives
trapped within it… Think long upon this, goddess. If you lose this gamble,
your warriors will never rise again.”
Cosmos: “Then, a true ending means neverending discord…a perpetual darkness?”
Golbez: “Indeed. The world would fall into eternal despair.”
Taking the risk in order to gain the hope of finally ending the cycle of battle, Cosmos allowed herself to be so weakened by giving her power to her warriors as to render her vulnerable to what the warriors of Chaos called an absolute death — one without the possibility of resurrection.
The crystals then allowed the heroes to exist within the world of Dissidia even when Cosmos herself was killed by Chaos at the beginning of Shade Impulse.
•What objects do the crystals of Cosmos’s warriors represent?
As most players will have noticed, most of the crystals the warriors of Cosmos receive are in the form of objects from their homeworlds. Is there a common theme to all of these objects? Do they, perhaps, each represent something special to the warrior in question?
They actually appear to each be representatives of sources of power on the worlds they come from. We’ll break down what each crystal is in the following list.
- 1: As detailed above under the “Is the Dissidia FF series a prequel to the first Final Fantasy game?” entry, the Warrior of Light’s crystal literally is the crystal he carries in the first Final Fantasy
- 2: Firion’s crystal most likely represents the Ultima Tome in FFII — a crystal that allowed one to learn the ultimate spell, Ultima
- 3: Onion Knight’s crystal is a miniature version of the Wind Crystal
- 4: Cecil’s crystal shares the appearance of the numerous crystals featured throughout that game
- 5: Bartz’s crystal has the appearance of any of the many crystal shards from his game
- 6: Terra’s crystal has the form of magicite
- 7: Cloud’s crystal has the form of material
- 8: Squall’s crystal is easily the most difficult to identify, but given the similar appearance to an official Square Enix Sephiroth wing pendant, it’s probably meant to be an angel wing. FFVIII’s witches all have a wing motif: Edea has a feathered collar, Adel has spiny adornments in the shape of wings, and both Ultimecia and Rinoa have actual angel wings, black and white respectively
- 9: Zidane’s crystal shares the shape of the crystal of creation seen in Crystal World, as well as the crystals found at the center of worlds in FFIX’s universe, and possibly all worlds with Lifestreams
- 10: Tidus’s crystal looks the same as the numerous video spheres seen throughout FFX
• When did Tidus, Terra and Cloud receive Cosmos’s light so as to obtain their crystals?
These three were on Team Chaos when Cosmos shared her power with her warriors at the beginning of Chapter 1 of Treachery of the Gods, and there’s no similar scene in cycle 013, so when did they receive this power?
In the first cutscene from Report 3, Tidus received his share of Cosmos’s power directly from Jecht, who had been bestowed with it when all her other warriors were. This is stated outright in their Museum profiles:
“Summoned as a warrior of Chaos in the twelfth cycle, Tidus protects Yuna from the Emperor’s attack and lies on the verge of death. He is saved by a warrior of Cosmos, his father Jecht. Tidus inherits Cosmos’s power from Jecht and avoids slipping into oblivion.”
(From Jecht’s profile)
“Transferring the powers of Cosmos within him to Tidus, Jecht collapses, having lost all his might.”
Meanwhile, Terra most likely received her portion of Cosmos’s power in the cutscene from Report 2 when Cosmos imbued her body with energy.
Cloud’s moment of receiving Cosmos’s light is equally simple to identify. At the end of the first cutscene from Report 8, when Cosmos calls Cloud her chosen, energy rises off of her into the sky. The energy looks like that which Cosmos projected to Terra in Report 2.
Even were these not actually the times they received Cosmos’s light, however, it’s not as though cycle 013 begins right where the first game’s story picks up. It had obviously been going for quite some time by then already — plenty of time for Cosmos to have shared her power with them.
• Why were the warriors of Chaos able to revive multiple times during cycle 013?
During cycle 012, warriors of Chaos seemed unable to revive again until the next cycle. Kuja, Exdeath, Cloud of Darkness and Sephiroth all die at some point before the Shinryu’s purification process, and none return until after.
In the next cycle, on the other hand, they were able to revive multiple times during the same cycle. Emperor Mateus, for instance, dies no less than three times prior to the Shade Impulse portion of cycle 013. Why the difference?
Most likely, it’s due to Cosmos’s weakened state in the final cycle, which followed as result of her self-inflicted death when she sacrificed herself to save the Warrior of Light.
As explained in the opening narration of both Dissidia games, Cosmos and Chaos had been of equal strength up to that point. Thereafter, Chaos had the greater power in the realm — which apparently extended to reviving his warriors as many times as he wanted.
• Why doesn’t Cosmos fight more often?
As seen in the ending of the Treachery of the Gods story mode and explained by Cid of the Lufaine’s narration there, if Cosmos should devote her power to anything other than maintaining the stability of World B to counter Chaos’s power, she will die:
of harmony. Her divine power flows outwards in an
endless stream–a soothing current to suppress the
violent and destructive energy of the god of discord.
But in this battle, the long-standing rules were
shattered. In defiance of fate, the goddess of
harmony chose to divert her power from its eternal
task. She sought to protect the lives of her
chosen heroes, and invited her own demise.”
• Why didn’t Cosmos’s absolute death during cycle 013 trigger Shinryu attempting to start a new cycle?
Most likely because, given how Cosmos had divided up her power and essence amongst her warriors, she couldn’t be revived. Thus, the terms of the agreement between Cid and Shinryu couldn’t be fulfilled. Shinryu was to reset the board with all its warriors and both deities in each cycle, and Cosmos’s actions ensured that he couldn’t do so again.
For that matter, with no more potential to harvest future memories from the war since Cosmos unable to continue it, Shinryu would have no longer stood to gain anything from the conflict anyway.
Alternately, it may be that, with her power residing with her champions, as far as Shinryu was concerned, Cosmos was still on the field.
• How is Cosmos alive during the Secret Ending of the first Dissidia/the cutscene from Report 20 of Dissidia 012?
According to the final remarks of Chaos in the Confessions of the Creator storyline, the crystals belonging to Cosmos’s warriors revived her once the war was ended:
Another miracle.
The ‘crystals’ of the warriors who were
defeated despite the strongest resolve have
brought ‘her’ back to that world.”
• Did the warriors of Cosmos gain the power of gods?
As Lightning’s narration at the beginning of Chapter 1 of Dissidia 012’s Treachery of the Gods story mode mentions, the crystals of Cosmos’s warriors were supposed to give them power to rival a god. Did they really gain such power after acquiring their crystals?
Probably not.
In the first place, before they ever had much of a chance to use them in battle, the crystals’ power was being used to sustain their presence in the world of Dissidia after Cosmos’s death at the beginning of Shade Impulse. Emperor Mateus was the only warrior to gain a crystal and not suffer from this limitation, and he was defeated by several warriors of Cosmos taking him on, as was Chaos.
Afterward, between using their power to revive Cosmos and send the warriors home, the crystals likely didn’t have much — if any — power left. Certainly Cecil doesn’t demonstrate godlike powers in Final Fantasy IV Interlude or Final Fantasy IV: The After Years, nor does Cloud in post-Final Fantasy VII entries of the Compilation of FFVII (Cloud performs ridiculous feats, yes, but not powers comparable to Cosmos or Chaos).
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A quick point re: OK
I don’t think it’s Luneth. If it is one of the new DS version heroes and not one of the OK from III, then I think it might be Ingus.
Luneth is the archetypal ‘Rush in ASAP’ hero, regardless of who is involved. Ingus, by contrast, is much more reserved, wanting to examine a situation before leaping in, much like OK in Dissidia. Though Ingus certainly would not ‘fight only battles he was sure he could win’ he would do everything he could to maximize his chances.
I reckon that OK is a younger Ingus, years before ever becoming a knight of Sasune.
Besides, OK has his hair and his color scheme. It takes the Luneth Alt for OK to look anything like Luneth.
Just my 2c.
Fair points. I’ll add mention of the similarities to Ingus in as well. Thanks, Ryu.
I gotta ask, when was it stated that Chaos lost the 13th and several cycles afterwards in 000? Because I can’t find that stated in the game.
On a second look, you are right. I’d misinterpreted this line previously: “The Cycle of destruction and purification gave Chaos power and corroded his
mind.”
I’d taken this to mean that Chaos had received purification over and over (in which case he would have died), and that this had messed with his mind. However, it’s said that Cosmos herself receives purification over and over and loses power over time: “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification. … Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself.”
I guess the reference to purification in the line about Chaos just means that he kept getting more and more powerful, and the increase in power made him insane.
So, Confessions of the Creator is more like an expanded version of Inward Chaos then. Thanks for the correction. I’ll add it in, along with further thanks to you. =)
Hi… er. Why is this posted under ‘Final Fantasy VII’?
Also, your Seventh Heaven Strategy guide appears to be a dead link.
PS: I’m still reading this article.
It’s under the “Final Fantasy VII” category because I forgot to add tags when I posted the article, and that’s the default tag. Thanks for pointing that out. I went ahead and fixed it just now.
You finished reading the article and have anything else to add?
I believe regarding manikins are truly merciless they have no will of their own they will continue slaughtering their victim including destroying their victims flesh which is why I even though Terra was nearly about to die she killed the manikins before they killed her and leads me to believe that if you have no Flesh Shynryu cant revive you, If the villains kill you they will leave your body but I believe manikins dont know any better so they will continue to slaughter a body.
I’ve considered that possibility before, but since Shantotto apparently vaporized Gabranth and he was still brought back for the next round of the cycle, I don’t think it’s the case.
Thanks for throwing that out there, though.
I though Gabranth ran away with shame after his defeat against Shantotto, and in the end he ended up in a place thats not in the gods battle ground or so it says on dissidia 013 game I cant remember where I read that.
Well, his profile says that he went into hiding after being defeated by Shantotto, but it’s clear from their fight that she killed him. So I assume it was in the next cycle that he went into hiding, once he’d been revived.
ah ok yea that makes sense but killing him doesnt mean she destroyed his flesh which is why I believe no body = no revive also doesnt shynryu keep reviving chars until they can no longer give him “experince”, I mean if a character has no body he cant really absorb their experience to make himself stronger because he only heals their body he doesnt make them their body if he made their body then that probably make them manikins which I believe they arent manikins.
Don’t the bodies of all the warriors of Chaos discorporate into black smoke upon death, though? So they really don’t have bodies when Shinryu arrives anyway.
In any case, I thought Shantotto incinerated Gabranth. She said she would, and he wasn’t there after the battle.
New here, but I had a few opinions/questions.
First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?
As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?
When talking about Terra’s and Cloud’s survival, you said “Though Cloud wasn’t killed by a manikin, he was killed by his own side’s god…” That god being Chaos…who, as you noted, was in fact a manikin himself. Nothing really relevant there, I just found it amusing, though I could see someone not very pensive being confused by that.
This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).
As far as the inconsistencies mentioned at the end, I’ll give a few of them a shot:
As far as Kuja being manipulated by several of the villains when Sephiroth wasn’t, all I can suggest is that Kuja was more emotionally/mentally fragile than Sephiroth, who wasn’t easily manipulated, if for no other reason than he more or less showed a disinterest in their ploys.
About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.
On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.
Just some questions/thoughts. Feel free to correct me/shoot me down wherever necessary. I certainly haven’t put as much thought or effort into the storyline as you, so any theories I have may easily be explained by an oversight on my account.
First, thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful response. =)
-“First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?”
Yes, actually, that’s exactly how I would have described the gateways.
-“As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?”
Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.
-“This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).”
You know, that’s an excellent observation. Yeah, I’d agree — Golbez must have belonged to Cosmos at some point.
Now that you bring it up, I notice that the original dialogue alluded to it, but they evidently realized that it wasn’t explicit enough and revised it. Here’s what it was in the original:
Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
Exdeath: “Indeed. He is a betrayer to the last.”
Emperor: “I suppose it was only a matter of time until he became aware of the light within him… Nevertheless, we must resolve this issue before Shrinyu makes its move.”
And here’s the new version:
Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
Exdeath: “Indeed, he is finally caught in the act. His inner light of harmony never faded.”
Emperor: “A heart of light in a dark body… How intriguing. We must resolve this issue before Shinryu stirs.”
Makes me think that they probably did the same thing with Kuja after all, and that he hadn’t originally been summoned by Chaos. This would explain why he discorporates into white smoke like Lightning and co. when he dies in Shade Impulse.
I notice that they’ve also removed Garland’s reference to him as new. This was the original flow of that conversation:
Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same. Not just me. We are all the
same. Even that witch, Ultimecia… We all bear the same fate. You have only
been…directed…because you are new.”
Here’s the new one:
Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same–warriors summoned to this land by the god of discord. And that is the truth for all of us. Even that witch, Ultimecia… Not one remembers everything. You were used when you had just awakened.”
Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).
Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.
-“About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.”
It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before? Right before he killed Cosmos, I mean.
He wasn’t there, then the scenery deteriorated, Tidus looked around him, looked back at Cosmos, and suddenly Chaos was floating in front of her.
-“On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.”
That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?
Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.
– “Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.”
Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that scene.
– “Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).
Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.”
I’ll admit I haven’t played that far into the game yet (not on the 012 version, anyway), otherwise I may have caught that revision as well. I’ll also admit I find Golbez WAY cooler than Kuja, too, and I tend to focus more on the characters I like the most, quite naturally.
Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.
– “It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before?”
Also a good point, but perhaps the developers differentiated between short-distance teleportation and long-distance teleportation. It is somewhat logical, after all, and Chaos teleporting back to his homeworld would also require him to teleport himself across dimensions, not just from one spot to another on the current planet he’s dwelling.
It could also just be the developers didn’t think about it. I suppose you can’t expect them to cover EVERY detail (or maybe you should expect it…I don’t know), and like I said earlier, it’s just a presupposition off the top of my head.
– “That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?
Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.”
Yeah, I have no idea about that, either.
I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.
-“Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.”
I very much appreciate your help. =) I’m glad you like the FAQ.
-“I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.”
I’ll be looking forward to it!
Slight disagreement on the comment about Shantotto in the “Why was Cloud ever on Chaos’ side to begin with?” section.
While Shantotto is indeed ruthless and seems to have erased Mercy from her dictionary, her heart’s in the right place. In XI, she’s fiercely loyal to the Federation of Windurst (her home nation) and was an active participant in saving the world on at least 3 accounts (providing valuable enemy information to the Allied Nations during the Crystal War, going undercover to assess the situation in Aht Urhgan, and showed up at the last moment to stop Domina and Bella Shantotto from Shantottofying everyone in Vana’diel).
I’ll concede that I sounded a bit too harsh on Shantotto there. That was meant to be a joke, but it didn’t come across as such, did it?
BTW im really loving the analysis plot not just this game I read the other analysis plots from other FF games.
Thanks.
Which others have you read?
Hm, I have a question for you if you can answer it. It’s more of something that I’m curious about really.
It’s clear that Jecht went from team Cosmos to teams Chaos, but were other villains who were once warriors of Cosmos as well? Say like Golbez, Kuja, or even Sephiroth?
It’s pretty clear why I ask for Golbez and to a point Kuja. But the reason why I ask for Sephiroth is because as you said in your FAQ, Sephiroth doesn’t seem to have a lot of memories of his home world as Cloud does. Which seems very off to me and sort of reminds me of how Jecht was in the first Dissidia. When the Emperor told him that he was once a warrior of Cosmos he seemed very surprised by it. Then there’s the fact that Sephiroth summons the Masamune in a flash of light like the heroes do, versus just carrying it around like the villains. Also he vanishes in a flash of light sort of the same way Kuja does when he dies.
So I’m really wondering if at some point Sephiroth was a warrior of Cosmos, something happened and he was defeated, and when he woke up he was a warrior of Chaos with almost no memories. Or is it just SE nodding their head at Sephiroth’s hero status before Nibelheim?
I think that Seph manifesting his weapon as the heroes do is just referencing his hero status prior to the razing of Nibelheim.
I don’t think he was ever on Cosmos’s team. Changing sides shouldn’t affect homeworld memories, as both Cloud and Jecht seem to retain the significant amounts of it they’d recovered.
Also, unlike Kuja, they wouldn’t really need to feed him false memories or goad him into fighting, so tampering with whatever memories he had shouldn’t have been necessary.
Okay, cool. Thanks for answering. It’s something I’ve wondered about because I’ve been trying to figure out at what point everyone came from their game. With some it’s pretty clear (like Kuja and Zidane I’m sure they’re post game), with others it’s a guess.
Ah ok I definetely Agree then yea the pyreflies with the villains so that obviously isnt it then, wonder what truly is the reason behind for not being able to revive heroes killed by munchkins
Just wanted to keep everyone informed: all necessary updates have been applied at this point. =)
Thanks again to everyone (here and elsewhere) who has commented and strived to improve the article!
Appreciated that you added my question to the FAQ. As one of my college (high school to Americans) teachers said – “If you have a question about something, chances are that someone else will also have it.”
You’re very welcome. =) And, yes, your teacher was right.
As promised, I do in fact have a few more questions.
How exactly are the characters in Dissidia able to perform some of the feats they do? I know your article mentions the concepts of Ex Mode and the supernatural abilities that accompany it, but what about abilities such as Free Air Dash? With the except of Advent Children, it’s not really known for the characters to be able to perform such a stunt like boosting themselves forward (or backward, in the case of Reverse Free Air Dash) in mid-air. On that note, where do they derive the power to perform magic in this game? Cloud’s arsenal of bravery attacks include numerous fire spells, yet Materia (presumably) doesn’t exist in the Dissidia world; Squall, likewise, can performs attacks such as Thunder Bullet and Fusillade, yet he doesn’t have GFs to junction magic attacks. If there is some other element that allows magic to be performed by all the characters in Dissidia, that might also provide a more satisfactory answer to why Terra and Kefka are able to use magic (though “a wizard did it” is certainly satisfying enough for me given all the other things that have occurred in the game).
Any insight on that topic would be most interesting.
On a completely different and much more minute topic, what causes Squall’s crystal at the end of Chapter 7 in Light to All (Destiny Odyssey VIII) to emit a light pointing toward Bartz? I’ve wondered how it was able to react like that since my first playthrough of Dissidia.
Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.
Stuff like Free Air Dash I won’t even attempt to address. =P I’ll be straight up with you on that. And I don’t think we’re really meant to. That sort of thing has got to be just gameplay-related.
As for magic in general, thanks for bringing up those points. Tifa and Cloud do, indeed, use magic despite us having no reason to believe they have materia. Squall could be given a pass, perhaps, since one can still use para-magic in the world he comes from without junctioning GFs — though that still leaves points like Laguna never running out of ammunition.
Yuna, meanwhile, even has her aeons back, despite the game making it clear that her pilgrimage and Tidus’s death is in the past tense for her.
“A wizard did it” really is the best and only explanation. Some folk who are dead set on trying to bring the game down or don’t like to picture it as canon may not ever accept that, but you can’t reason with a fool who chooses to be a fool knowingly anyway.
In answer to your last question about Chapter 7 of Light to All/Destiny Odyssey VIII … a wizard did it? =P
No, I’m kidding. Your guess is as good as mine, really. Probably something to do with the crystals being born from a combination of the heroes’ resolve and Cosmos’s own power, so it pointed in the direction his heart was set.
– “Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.”
Full-time college student with a full-time job right here. You have my understanding.
Another point of interest (for me, anyway) that I came across occurs in Chapter 10/Destiny Odyssey I. From the beginning of cycle 013 Warrior of Light seems to recognize Garland (or at least knows who he is), made evident during the scene between the two before WOL battles him the first time before ever leaving Order’s Sanctuary. WOL refers to Garland by name, yet he should have no memory of Garland since Team Cosmos lost the previous cycle and, as made abundantly clear, Dissidia chronologically predates FFI, so there’s no “homeworld memories” argument to obfuscate the matter.
He knows him because the story of cycle 013 apparently begins a good while after that cycle had already begun. Remember, the opening to the original Dissidia is actually part of the story.
And the Silent Presage scenes included in the releases of Dissidia outside Japan (and in the Universal Tuning rerelease in Japan) took place before that opening battle sequence.
That clear things up?
The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?
I also would like to point something out regarding your well thought out Garland timeline (I could actually have a lengthy discussion on that topic, but I’ll keep it brief). You suggested Garland from World B was transported to World A after Dissidia, transported back in time by Chaos/himself, and then thrown back into the world of Dissidia, explaining why he remembers the time loop from FFI. However, in the opening scene for the Inherited Memories gateway in the 013 epilogue, we see this exchange between Golbez and Garland:
Golbez: “What is it that you know? Who ARE you?”
Garland: “Nothing so dire as you imagine. I was once made a prisoner of a time loop. The Great Will saved me from that fate. In return, I agreed to carry out a task.”
While this doesn’t discredit your conjecture, it seems to provide a discrepancy. Again, you suggested Garland, after traveling to World A following Dissidia, is pulled into the time loop and sent by Chaos back into the Dissidia universe. Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop. This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?
It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a “prisoner” of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.
…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief. Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.
Excellent work!
However trying to seperate heads from tails in a story that involves two cycles and time space rift is impossible 😛 I would very much like to hear your thoughts on these two points
1) if they propose that dissidia is a prequel to FFI how come Garland says to Chaos ( in shade impulse) that when he was on the verge of death it was chaos who sent him 2000 years in the past? that happens in FFI after WOL defeats garland for kidnapping the princess :s that puts dissidia after FFI
2)Also the text entry says that WOL heads to cornelia with a darkened crystal in hand. But the WOLs had shinning crystals that they used (along with defeating each fiend) to restore the light to the apropriate big crystals. It seems like WOL returning with a darkened crystal means he returns to a peaceful world of FFI -after its ending-
Thank you for your compliments. =)
In address to your questions:
1) I talk about this in the section about Garland in the FAQ. For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.
He’s mortally wounded by them, left on the floor dying, and then Chaos pulls him through time — but also drops him off in World B, where he resides until meeting Cosmos, Cid and Chaos (Garland’s own past self).
After Dissidia ends, he’ll go back to where he last was before entering World B: 2000 years in World A’s past. He’ll then gain more power, become Chaos once again, and reach across time to the future to save his past self, who is dying after being defeated by the Warriors of Light.
At least that’s how it will go until he’s defeated by the Warriors of Light before being able to pull his past self across time. Who knows what becomes of things after that.
2) That is a good observation. However, since the Warrior of Light was born on World B during the conflict of Dissidia, he’s never been to World A until the ending of cycle 013. He couldn’t have taken part in the events of the first FF yet.
Someone made a mistake there, it sounds like.
-For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.-
Thats the crazy part lol. he is defeated by WOL before dissidia while WOL doesnt get in that world until after dissidia!
Damn SE and those loops! :p
No wonder… Whenever I saw the ending for original Dissidia I would get a nostalgic feeling that the ending of Dissidia was the beginning of FF1, because the scene staring at cornelia castle “warriors will be holding crystals”,Also Im starting to think the crystal that WOL obtained in dissidia somehow “revives” or powers up the ones being guarded by the elemental fiends.
Response to clide88:
“The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?”
I imagine it was left out for disc space considerations. Even the Silent Presage cutscenes and the primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out, after all, and Cid of the Lufaine’s voice-over monologues about the heroes during each of their chapters are heavily abridged from what they were in the Destiny Odysseys of the first game. Each is cut by about half.
You can also tell at a glance that the cutscenes from the original game were compressed at a lower quality in order to fit them all on the disc.
In any case, as an example of how the FMV opening from the original game actually fits into the story, recall that the last shot of it is of the Warrior of Light laying face down on the ground in the vicinity of Order’s Sanctuary — exactly how we find him at the beginning of the Prologue segment of cycle 013, both in the original game and this one.
The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.
“Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop.”
I don’t think it necessarily suggests that the Great Will pulled him from anywhere. Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.
He speaks of hearing Chaos’s/his own voice explain the existence of the time loop to him as he was saved while on the verge of death at the hands of the Warriors of Light in Cornelia, and that he found himself on World B, thinking he had been taken 2000 years to the past of World A.
I think Garland’s comment about the Great Will saving him is merely a mistake on Garland’s part. He thought this because he was confused as to why he was there in the conflict of Dissidia to begin with if he was supposed to have been taken to World A’s past.
If the events of Dissidia are just part of the overall timeloop of the first FF, Garland probably didn’t know that at first. It seems like he figured it out once he realized that the cycle would be coming to an end, though. That’s probably why he tells Chaos the truth about their relationship toward the end of Shade Impulse/the Epilogue.
Also, notice that in the same conversation with Golbez that you mentioned, Garland says “…There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. As long as he is me… .” That contradicts what Garland said earlier in their conversation about the Great Will saving him.
So, yeah, I think Garland just thought that he’d been saved from the time loop, but realized he was still in it once he found out the Dissidia conflict was ending. After all, it was supposed to last forever — or at least until Chaos grew powerful enough to do what Cid wanted.
“This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?”
I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.
“It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a ‘prisoner’ of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.”
Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.
“…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief.”
No doubt. Have you seen the FAQ that Sir Bahamut, TheOnionKnight and I did on FFVIII?:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/34215
“Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.”
Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis. I hope my response was illuminating in some way.
“Even the…primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out…”
Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012. I imagine it was primarily due to space constraints, as well (given that it’s still mentioned in Sephiroth’s profile), but I still felt jipped, maybe just because VII’s my favorite title. But seriously, would a two-disc game have been all that bad? Type-0, after all, is rumored to span two UMDs.
“The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.”
I didn’t catch onto that. At least it all makes sense now.
“Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.”
Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated? We hear Garland in-game mention on two occasions that the Great Will pulled him into the Dissidia realm: the first is the aforementioned exchange between him and Golbez; the second is while speaking with Chaos (in the Epilogue/Shade Impulse). Garland states: “Before the Great Will led me to
this realm, when I was on the edge of death, it was you who sent me two
thousand years into the past.” He clearly acknowledges Chaos as transporting him through time while simultaneously denoting the Great Will as separately having brought him to the Dissidia realm (transporting him through space, if you will).
In Report 12 there are certainly implications, but I never read where it was explicitly stated that Chaos transported him across dimensions (if I overlooked something, please correct me!). To me it seems to be a logical assumption that Chaos did so, but given the in-game conversations it seems to me that the Great Will is responsible.
As far as whether Garland said the Great Will did because he was mistaken, I guess that’s subject to perspective (unless, again, if I have missed something that definitively proves otherwise). It seems, however, to be unlikely for the sake of storytelling. Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?
“I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.”
Even time has a genesis. It merely cannot be established without more information. In other words, given the lack of information we’re given in Dissidia/FFI about the time loops (as well as FFVIII), yes, I would concur.
On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!
“Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.”
The manner in which Garland presented these revelations to Golbez implied (at least to me) a much more emotionally invested response that simply being told about doesn’t produce. Only experiencing the catastrophe personally would elicit such a deep and heavy lamentation. That being said, I certainly could have perceived that conversation incorrectly and Garland was in fact merely told about it without experiencing it. I don’t know, though; it really did seem like his words were too heavy to not have experienced the time loop for a cycle or. Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.
“Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis.”
I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.
-“Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012.”
It really should have been. That was one of the things that I believe a great many fans were looking forward to seeing depicted.
-“Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated?”
In Report 12 he speaks of Chaos/his future self transporting him several times:
“I heard a voice speak to me as I laid
dying–and that voice was my own.
My words were the only clues I had of the
realm in which I found myself–in which I
assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years.”
“In the present, I no longer have an interest
in carrying my future self back to the past.”
“As I imagined the hatred building inside me
that would eventually and inevitably lead me to
make a irreparable mistake, all I could do
was cower in fear.”
“I often think of the start of the cycle.
I as Chaos summon me from the future;
once summoned, I become Chaos.”
He also speaks of encountering Cid/the Great Will after he’s been wandering for a while, so there’s no indication from his monologue that Cid had anything to do with him appearing there — even if Garland came to believe so himself for whatever reason. For that matter, Cid’s own monologuing from Chaos Report 4 in the first game doesn’t imply that he summoned Garland; only that he came across him in the same way that Garland came across Cid.
-“Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?”
Well, it does serve the purpose for the plot of explaining why Garland ever agreed in the first place to assist the Great Will in all these shenanigans.
-“On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!”
Thanks for your compliments. =) Glad you enjoyed.
-“Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.”
Me neither. I just can’t see any other way at the moment that the plot would work otherwise. Especially since Cid’s own monologue — and the circumstances under which Garland encounters him (prior even to Cid gaining his disembodied form from Shinryu) — don’t imply the GW to have had any hand in Garland’s appearance on World B.
-“I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.”
They have. Thank you again. =)
Something else that occurred to me to refute my presupposition is that Cid didn’t have access to World A, given that his goal was to cross the door in the Rift to reach his world. So yeah, there’s not really a way he could’ve even accomplished transporting Garland from World A to World B. He couldn’t even get back to World A himself!
That’s a good point too. Hadn’t thought about that.
Perhaps Chaos could summon warriors and couldn’t just teleport himself and Cid because it works one way and not the other? Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos. In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.
-“Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos.”
It would most likely be that those worlds have been shattered and fused into World B.
-“In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.”
It’s a good question, really, whether the World A version is part of the Katamari ball. It’s not entirely clear. My guess would be yes since the Chaos Shrine shows up as part of gateways and such.
But shattered by what? A consequence of the fact that Chaos and Cosmos fight, rather than intentional reaching for the other worlds on their parts?
It seems to have been a deliberate action on the gods’ part, probably at the same time as when they acquired their warriors. Here’s what Golbez had to say on the matter:
“This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods.”
I meant “is it established”, not “it is established”.
I read in other summaries that Chaos went crazy in 018 in the “Confessions of the Creator” alterniverse because he kept losing to Cosmos, not because he kept winning. For instance, here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_Chaos
That was a misunderstanding some of us had early on, but, no, Cid is very specific that Cosmos lost every time in the 000 story:
“Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification.”
Has anyone ever considered that Cid, Chaos and Cosmos’ powered are limited to this world only and would not allow them to escape while still allowing them to pull others in from outside?